One of the biggest reasons for having what I'd like to call a "competitive" ban list is the rising number of Commander tournaments happening at events. GenCon had a huge commander tournament, StarCityGames have commander tournaments at every single event they hold. Now, do you think for one second that cards like Ad Nauseum, Hermit Druid, Tooth and Nail, ect... are not warping these? You're kidding yourself if you don't. These tournaments are played very at a very high level and need a proper ban list. Yes, there will always be casual games, those players will continue to have fun, and could have even more fun if there was a proper ban list for the format.
I'm slightly confused. I'm not sure whether the consensus is that the RC 1) never listens to the players or 2) bans stuff just because people whine about it. I seem to be hearing both. Let me know what you work out, because if it's 1), then I (and Toby and Gavin and Devon) can stop reading every post in these forums. I'd probably have more Skyrim time.
Except some of the cards that should be banned for how they are abused are fun to play when not abused. Exchanging the current list for a competitive one is not win-win for everyone.
As other have said, a proper ban list will never be as much of a problem for competitive Commander tournaments as collusion will be, so it makes sense to keep the primary banlist aimed at casual.
There is no doubt that certain cards should be added to the ban list. Please explain what Ad Nauseum adds to the format. Does anyone use Basalt Monolith for anything other than generating infinite mana? How about Mind Over Matter, not a card normally talked about, but when was the last time you saw it used in a fair manner? Weather the RC and casuals like it or not, EDH is becoming more competitive. It's time the RC started addressing this rather than trying to ignore it.
I'm slightly confused. I'm not sure whether the consensus is that the RC 1) never listens to the players or 2) bans stuff just because people whine about it. I seem to be hearing both. Let me know what you work out, because if it's 1), then I (and Toby and Gavin and Devon) can stop reading every post in these forums. I'd probably have more Skyrim time.
This is exactly why WOTC should be incharge of Commander. Sheldon, people are saying that you are ignoring what is going on in the format and they want it addressed. The RC in most people's opinions are out of touch with what is going on and people want the ban list corrected. Instead of addressing this, you'd rather tell us to go make our own rules, ignore what is going on and talk about playing some video game.
Forgive me for being glib. My point is that we're NOT ignoring what's going on in the format, we're paying attention to everyone, to include the small percentage of total players who post on these (and the official) forums. Yours are not the only voices. Additionally, don't confuse not doing exactly what you think we should do with ignoring you. After all, we all also take the time to respond in the forums.
The format has an underlying philosophy. We're not going to move away from that. Part of that philosophy means that we're not going to consider competitive play as a ban list criterion. We're also not going to change the philosophy based on what a vocal minority wants. We're going to continue to guide the format in the direction we've set out, specifically in support of the players for whom our philosophy resonates. If someone wants to create a competitive list and promote it to TOs who want to run competitive tournaments, we won't stand in their way. If it becomes popular, great. It will mean even more people playing Magic. That still won't change our philosophy. This is a format specifically for a certain type of player.
Let me see if this analogy works. Commander is a pistol-shooting club. Someone with a tank comes along and says "you can obliterate those targets more efficiently with this." We respond, "Yeah, but we're a pistol-shooting club."
Forgive me for being glib. My point is that we're NOT ignoring what's going on in the format, we're paying attention to everyone, to include the small percentage of total players who post on these (and the official) forums. Yours are not the only voices. Additionally, don't confuse not doing exactly what you think we should do with ignoring you. After all, we all also take the time to respond in the forums.
The format has an underlying philosophy. We're not going to move away from that. Part of that philosophy means that we're not going to consider competitive play as a ban list criterion. We're also not going to change the philosophy based on what a vocal minority wants. We're going to continue to guide the format in the direction we've set out, specifically in support of the players for whom our philosophy resonates. If someone wants to create a competitive list and promote it to TOs who want to run competitive tournaments, we won't stand in their way. If it becomes popular, great. It will mean even more people playing Magic. That still won't change our philosophy. This is a format specifically for a certain type of player.
Let me see if this analogy works. Commander is a pistol-shooting club. Someone with a tank comes along and says "you can obliterate those targets more efficiently with this." We respond, "Yeah, but we're a pistol-shooting club."
You're completely missing the point . We're saying a change is needed and again you're completely dismissing it as a change the "vocal minority" wants...
This vocal minority spends endless hours playing, building, testing and tuning lists far beyond your comprehension. I believe they have some insight.
Again, you claim we're a vocal minority, but there's no way to prove otherwise. In my experience, the notion the banned list is inconsistent and needs more direction is pretty much universally talked about at one point or another during any given game. I don't find myself to be in the minority that often.
You're reply doesn't surprise me, though. It's the same rhetoric you spew every post and eventually it will lead to another group taking over and refining EDH into a better format.
Forgive me for being glib. My point is that we're NOT ignoring what's going on in the format, we're paying attention to everyone, to include the small percentage of total players who post on these (and the official) forums. Yours are not the only voices. Additionally, don't confuse not doing exactly what you think we should do with ignoring you. After all, we all also take the time to respond in the forums.
The format has an underlying philosophy. We're not going to move away from that. Part of that philosophy means that we're not going to consider competitive play as a ban list criterion. We're also not going to change the philosophy based on what a vocal minority wants. We're going to continue to guide the format in the direction we've set out, specifically in support of the players for whom our philosophy resonates. If someone wants to create a competitive list and promote it to TOs who want to run competitive tournaments, we won't stand in their way. If it becomes popular, great. It will mean even more people playing Magic. That still won't change our philosophy. This is a format specifically for a certain type of player.
Let me see if this analogy works. Commander is a pistol-shooting club. Someone with a tank comes along and says "you can obliterate those targets more efficiently with this." We respond, "Yeah, but we're a pistol-shooting club."
Pistol-Shooters should not get upset when they get ran over by Tanks. That's what is happening outside of Armada Games. Just saying. Based on what you're saying, EDH is not for anyone to play cometitively, and that we should go and create our own format, "General" like was mentioned earlier by someone.
You're completely missing the point . We're saying a change is needed and again you're completely dismissing it as a change the "vocal minority" wants...
This vocal minority spends endless hours playing, building, testing and tuning lists far beyond your comprehension. I believe they have some insight.
Again, you claim we're a vocal minority, but there's no way to prove otherwise. In my experience, the notion the banned list is inconsistent and needs more direction is pretty much universally talked about at one point or another during any given game. I don't find myself to be in the minority that often.
You're reply doesn't surprise me, though. It's the same rhetoric you spew every post and eventually it will lead to another group taking over and refining EDH into a better format.
He's not missing the point dude, YOU are. They've created this format into what they want it to be and there are a great number of players WHO LOVE IT. Why is it so popular?! People LOVE IT. You must get over the fact that they are not going to make a banned list based on competitive play, and move on. It's not worth worry about because it's not going to change unless someone else does something about it in a separate realm. Please stop trying to screw up the format for those of us who love it by introducing a huge competitive banned list (and it would have to be huge) that takes away a lot of the fun goodies that we get to play BECAUSE this isn't a competitive format.
Pistol-Shooters should not get upset when they get ran over by Tanks. That's what is happening outside of Armada Games. Just saying.
And the tanks should get bored of crushing the pistol shooters and go play with the other tanks.
He's not missing the point dude, YOU are. They've created this format into what they want it to be and there are a great number of players WHO LOVE IT. Why is it so popular?! People LOVE IT. You must get over the fact that they are not going to make a banned list based on competitive play, and move on. It's not worth worry about because it's not going to change unless someone else does something about it in a separate realm. Please stop trying to screw up the format for those of us who love it by introducing a huge competitive banned list (and it would have to be huge) that takes away a lot of the fun goodies that we get to play BECAUSE this isn't a competitive format.
And the tanks should get bored of crushing the pistol shooters and go play with the other tanks.
The problem is the RC is refusing to fix the problem and is content to letting the tanks continue to run over the pistol shooters.
The problem is the RC is refusing to fix the problem and is content to letting the tanks continue to run over the pistol shooters.
Perhaps the 'tanks' should make their own tank club. It's been said these groups don't mix well... why try to force them to mix?
The RC has a sound philosophy that happens to not care much about competitiveness, and their banlist follows that philosophy. If that philosophy doesn't resonate with you, why not use your own? (and develop a competitive-oriented banlist) There seems to be enough of a following here that it'd gain support.
I'm slightly confused. I'm not sure whether the consensus is that the RC 1) never listens to the players or 2) bans stuff just because people whine about it. I seem to be hearing both. Let me know what you work out, because if it's 1), then I (and Toby and Gavin and Devon) can stop reading every post in these forums. I'd probably have more Skyrim time.
Good to know you're taking this all so seriously and being a responsible community leader.
Forgive me for being glib. My point is that we're NOT ignoring what's going on in the format, we're paying attention to everyone, to include the small percentage of total players who post on these (and the official) forums. Yours are not the only voices. Additionally, don't confuse not doing exactly what you think we should do with ignoring you. After all, we all also take the time to respond in the forums.
The format has an underlying philosophy. We're not going to move away from that. Part of that philosophy means that we're not going to consider competitive play as a ban list criterion. We're also not going to change the philosophy based on what a vocal minority wants. We're going to continue to guide the format in the direction we've set out, specifically in support of the players for whom our philosophy resonates. If someone wants to create a competitive list and promote it to TOs who want to run competitive tournaments, we won't stand in their way. If it becomes popular, great. It will mean even more people playing Magic. That still won't change our philosophy. This is a format specifically for a certain type of player.
Let me see if this analogy works. Commander is a pistol-shooting club. Someone with a tank comes along and says "you can obliterate those targets more efficiently with this." We respond, "Yeah, but we're a pistol-shooting club."
Here's another analogy: people are bringing semi-automatic rifles to the pistol-shooting club because there isn't a semi-automatic club, you don't have an exclusivity contract with the shooting range, and the pistol-shooters really don't like the semi-automatic shooters because they're loud and noisy.
He's not missing the point dude, YOU are. They've created this format into what they want it to be and there are a great number of players WHO LOVE IT. Why is it so popular?! People LOVE IT. You must get over the fact that they are not going to make a banned list based on competitive play, and move on. It's not worth worry about because it's not going to change unless someone else does something about it in a separate realm. Please stop trying to screw up the format for those of us who love it by introducing a huge competitive banned list (and it would have to be huge) that takes away a lot of the fun goodies that we get to play BECAUSE this isn't a competitive format.
And the tanks should get bored of crushing the pistol shooters and go play with the other tanks.
Have you noticed that they don't get bored? That there really isn't anywhere else for them to go? That whether Sheldon likes it or not, his format has been infiltrated by people that have decided to make it into something it clearly isn't, and perpetuates this twisted version of Commander at LGS's, SCG events, and WOTC events?
I'm very happy that Armada Games is a magical sparkle candy paradise where everyone is at least 40 years old, has been playing for 20 years, and can resolve differences with multi-level diplomacy tactics.
That's not how the rest of the Commander community works.
Perhaps the 'tanks' should make their own tank club. It's been said these groups don't mix well... why try to force them to mix?
It goes back to everyone make your own house rules. Until WOTC takes control of the format and actually revampts the ban list with cards that should be on it, things will not change. Why is it so hard to see that a revamped ban list would actually make the format better for casuals? Do you like getting wipped out on turn 3 by Ad Nauseum? How about a Tooth and Nail for Mike/Trike? Don't you see that if the ban list was revamped and tooled for competitive play, that casual play would improve too? I'm not talking about banning 100+ cards. I realize that combo can never be truly eliminated. However, there are a handful of cards that could be added that would shake up EDH, encourage new deck building, and improve the health of the format overall.
I like the "pull your own bootstraps and make your own format" rhetoric. That's a little hard to do when the biggest, most popular, and only widely-played casual format enjoys product support, customized design, and special treatment.
EDH is a social format. In a social format there exist both 'competitive social' and 'casual social'. Just like any other format there are both competitive and casual. What is the underlying reason to split EDH into 2 formats?
If that is so should we split legacy into 2 formats too? Since there are competitive tier 1 legacy decks and other tier 3 and under legacy casual decks. Just because I am running a casual 60-card legacy deck means I need to differentiate myself into another format? And when another "more casual player" finds the "new legacy2.0" too competitive, we refine again and split it into "legacy3.0"? When will this end?
I believe if the meta is too cut-throat for one, either find another group or upgrade the deck to suit the meta. If not just tell your playgroup that you only have a pistol and only wish to play against other players wielding pistols.
you know... instead of saying that the establishment isn't listening, why not get some folks together who think like you and pull together like on a free forum site,or via email and hash things out, then come back here present your plan,along with your list to the greater community?
Isn't that both Sheldon and co and the French guys did?
unless it's just easier to try to force the square peg of current EDH into the round hole of competivewness.
EDH is a social format. In a social format there exist both 'competitive social' and 'casual social'. Just like any other format there are both competitive and casual. What is the underlying reason to split EDH into 2 formats?
If that is so should we split legacy into 2 formats too? Since there are competitive tier 1 legacy decks and other tier 3 and under legacy casual decks. Just because I am running a casual 60-card legacy deck means I need to differentiate myself into another format? And when another "more casual player" finds the "new legacy2.0" too competitive, we refine again and split it into "legacy3.0"? When will this end?
I believe if the meta is too cut-throat for one, either find another group or upgrade the deck to suit the meta. If not just tell your playgroup that you only have a pistol and only wish to play against other players wielding pistols.
Magic is a social game, not just EDH. If you want to play, fine, I'll play with anyone. But I won't, nor will I allow someone to dictate to me what I should play. The format does not need to be split. The RC just need to realize what the format is. This "Utopian" idea of everyone playing just for the sake of playing is a falacy. The RC seem to be unwilling to realize that people play games to win. Building an EDH deck takes time and money. Driving to an LGS takes time, and money. With that investment, people are going to want to win.
For one, I'm not the only person on the RC, nor do I have a disproportionately greater vote than anyone. Armada Games is the place you hear about most often, because I'm the one guy with a big enough soapbox, but where the rest of the RC plays is just as important, as is where the fans of the format play. We believe that the biggest, most popular, and only widely-played casual format got that way BECAUSE of our philosophy and that that philosophy resonates with so many players. If EDH/Commander had just been Alt-Vintage, it would have died a long time ago.
Magic is a social game, not just EDH. If you want to play, fine, I'll play with anyone. But I won't, nor will I allow someone to dictate to me what I should play. The format does not need to be split. The RC just need to realize what the format is. This "Utopian" idea of everyone playing just for the sake of playing is a falacy. The RC seem to be unwilling to realize that people play games to win. Building an EDH deck takes time and money. Driving to an LGS takes time, and money. With that investment, people are going to want to win.
For one, I'm not the only person on the RC, nor do I have a disproportionately greater vote than anyone. Armada Games is the place you hear about most often, because I'm the one guy with a big enough soapbox, but where the rest of the RC plays is just as important, as is where the fans of the format play. We believe that the biggest, most popular, and only widely-played casual format got that way BECAUSE of our philosophy and that that philosophy resonates with so many players. If EDH/Commander had just been Alt-Vintage, it would have died a long time ago.
How can you claim its your philosophy thats kept the format floating, when prized side events are going on at large events ? (oh..right.. they're the minority) or LGS are creating leagues and tournaments...
or could it be that EDH/Commander actually is a alt-vintage and you just refuse to accept it ?
EDIT: How is it, for a casual non-competetive format, EVERY LGS in my city has a EDH game day with prize support ? I'd wager a decent bet that a good percentage of all capable LGS have some kind of league/tournament structure for EDH with prize support (even if its just a pack).
Then we should get rid of the ban list and stop all Commander events in order to stay true to "the philosophy".
If the RC believe that Commander is truly a casual fomat, they would do this and let players regulate their own groups. However, the fact that we have an "official" ban list does suggest that the RC does not feel that Commander is soley a casual format. They just refuse to acknowledge this fact.
For one, I'm not the only person on the RC, nor do I have a disproportionately greater vote than anyone. Armada Games is the place you hear about most often, because I'm the one guy with a big enough soapbox, but where the rest of the RC plays is just as important, as is where the fans of the format play. We believe that the biggest, most popular, and only widely-played casual format got that way BECAUSE of our philosophy and that that philosophy resonates with so many players. If EDH/Commander had just been Alt-Vintage, it would have died a long time ago.
But you're just assuming that Commander is going well everywhere. I seriously doubt you've played in a Commander event at an SCG/WOTC event, in which case, it is singleton Vintage, and it's discouraging and unpleasant. I seriously doubt you've been to my LGS where I've invented three different ways of trying to keep things "fun" and "casual" with the help of other players and I've still had to change it because my players find the holes in the system and exploit it for all it's worth. You're lucky that Armada Games has players with the time, experience, and patience for a massive amount of extraneous bookkeeping just to get through a game of Magic.
What if I go to a Commander pod at SCG Atlanta next April and I tell people "well, I have banned cards in my deck because my playgroup has house rules"?
Do you seriously think that will go well with people?
This is exactly why WOTC should be incharge of Commander. Sheldon, people are saying that you are ignoring what is going on in the format and they want it addressed. The RC in most people's opinions are out of touch with what is going on and people want the ban list corrected. Instead of addressing this, you'd rather tell us to go make our own rules, ignore what is going on and talk about playing some video game.
Don't say most people's opinions, thats grossly misleading. A vocal minority wants adjustments so its better for competitive groups / tournamnets.
I like the "pull your own bootstraps and make your own format" rhetoric. That's a little hard to do when the biggest, most popular, and only widely-played casual format enjoys product support, customized design, and special treatment.
Is it's not rhetoric when thats the best option avalible and people have done it before. Duel Commander did it just fine, it sounds like YOU don't want to do the work and expect the RC to cater to you and yours.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Wow. I didn't really know how incredibly passionate people are about the EDH format!
I started playing EDH three years ago. I had been reading about it on MTGSalvation and and GatheringMagic and thought it sounded great, so I introduced the idea to my peers and we started brewing.
For the first little while I won more than my share of games. This is probably because after reading a lot, I was more adequately prepared. But, my playgroup caught up, refined their strategies, and the playing field feels a lot more balanced now. We have our own mini meta-game with powerful strategies coming and going. Sometimes there is no point in playing Karador for a few weeks because the grave-hate has gotten so ubiquitous. Sometimes I need to start running more artifact hate to temper someone's new combo deck. My point in explaining this is to try and show that in a casual local playgroup, the players themselves can take responsibility for the meta-game. Just like in other formats, I honestly believe there should be less power-level related banning, and more player innovation to curb the efficacy of powerful cards and strategies.
For example, quite a while back one of my good friends, who has the largest collection of anyone in our playgroup, and is certainly one of the strongest players, built a Sharuum the Hegemon EDH deck. Now, I'm sure many of you are familiar with the broken things that she can do. This deck was fast: Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith, Gilded Lotus, etc.; it played all the good mana-rocks. It had powerful combos (obviously), and as most of you are aware Sharuum is a third of a combo and also recurs combo-pieces that have been binned. Now, judging by the comments I've seen on the 'net, this type of broken stuff would have a lot of people up in arms: "Sol Ring should be banned!", "Power Artifact should be banned!", "Sharuum should be banned as a commander!" etc., etc. But rather than whine and ***** when Sharuum was winning disproportionate numbers of games, we meta-gamed against it. Before long, my Karador-reanimator deck ran no artifacts at all and packed Creeping Corrosion, Pernicious Deed, Stoney-Silence, Austere Command, Akroma's Vengeance, etc. Well, this did two things. It eventually punished Sharuum so hard that my friend retired it and brewed up something less abrasive. It also made me the arch-enemy for a while, as it turns out bashing all artifacts all the time really grinds peoples gears.
No strategy is unbeatable. As far as I can tell, a lot of Magic players are just to lazy to respect their opponents. People want to play solitaire and be able to win. That's not how it works. Broken strategies and cards exist in most of the formats. You need to be prepared with answers. Don't ban it, use your wits to meta-game against it. Honestly, if the EDH RC's banned list got much more heavy-handed my playgroup would stop using it and make our own. Yes, this would make it so that we couldn't take our decks elsewhere and jump in on EDH games without changing a few things, but whatever. Most of us agree that there are a bunch of cards on the list that do not need to be there.
Smart players can deal with anything. I have lost games of EDH in which I had Primeval Titan or Consecrated Sphinx on the table as early as the second or third turn. With strong decks and good threat assessment, a table can deal with almost anything. Maybe the folks I play EDH are just stronger players than most, maybe they're just less *****y, but I almost never hear that something is "too strong for EDH" or that something "should be banned."
Anyways, I personally feel that Sheldon and the RC are doing a fine job of keeping the format groovy, even if I didn't agree with the Griselbrand and Primeval Titan bannings. If others want to invent their own format where everything powerful is banned, go nuts. You can't please everyone.
...not only is the total number of players expanding very quickly, but at the same time a greater and greater number of those players are being pushed to only desire a small subset of the available cards. These combined forces drastically increase demand for those cards and cause the values of just those specific cards to often balloon out of proportion.
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There is no doubt that certain cards should be added to the ban list. Please explain what Ad Nauseum adds to the format. Does anyone use Basalt Monolith for anything other than generating infinite mana? How about Mind Over Matter, not a card normally talked about, but when was the last time you saw it used in a fair manner? Weather the RC and casuals like it or not, EDH is becoming more competitive. It's time the RC started addressing this rather than trying to ignore it.
This is exactly why WOTC should be incharge of Commander. Sheldon, people are saying that you are ignoring what is going on in the format and they want it addressed. The RC in most people's opinions are out of touch with what is going on and people want the ban list corrected. Instead of addressing this, you'd rather tell us to go make our own rules, ignore what is going on and talk about playing some video game.
The format has an underlying philosophy. We're not going to move away from that. Part of that philosophy means that we're not going to consider competitive play as a ban list criterion. We're also not going to change the philosophy based on what a vocal minority wants. We're going to continue to guide the format in the direction we've set out, specifically in support of the players for whom our philosophy resonates. If someone wants to create a competitive list and promote it to TOs who want to run competitive tournaments, we won't stand in their way. If it becomes popular, great. It will mean even more people playing Magic. That still won't change our philosophy. This is a format specifically for a certain type of player.
Let me see if this analogy works. Commander is a pistol-shooting club. Someone with a tank comes along and says "you can obliterate those targets more efficiently with this." We respond, "Yeah, but we're a pistol-shooting club."
You're completely missing the point . We're saying a change is needed and again you're completely dismissing it as a change the "vocal minority" wants...
This vocal minority spends endless hours playing, building, testing and tuning lists far beyond your comprehension. I believe they have some insight.
Again, you claim we're a vocal minority, but there's no way to prove otherwise. In my experience, the notion the banned list is inconsistent and needs more direction is pretty much universally talked about at one point or another during any given game. I don't find myself to be in the minority that often.
You're reply doesn't surprise me, though. It's the same rhetoric you spew every post and eventually it will lead to another group taking over and refining EDH into a better format.
Pistol-Shooters should not get upset when they get ran over by Tanks. That's what is happening outside of Armada Games. Just saying. Based on what you're saying, EDH is not for anyone to play cometitively, and that we should go and create our own format, "General" like was mentioned earlier by someone.
He's not missing the point dude, YOU are. They've created this format into what they want it to be and there are a great number of players WHO LOVE IT. Why is it so popular?! People LOVE IT. You must get over the fact that they are not going to make a banned list based on competitive play, and move on. It's not worth worry about because it's not going to change unless someone else does something about it in a separate realm. Please stop trying to screw up the format for those of us who love it by introducing a huge competitive banned list (and it would have to be huge) that takes away a lot of the fun goodies that we get to play BECAUSE this isn't a competitive format.
And the tanks should get bored of crushing the pistol shooters and go play with the other tanks.
twitter.com/bccarlso
The problem is the RC is refusing to fix the problem and is content to letting the tanks continue to run over the pistol shooters.
Perhaps the 'tanks' should make their own tank club. It's been said these groups don't mix well... why try to force them to mix?
The RC has a sound philosophy that happens to not care much about competitiveness, and their banlist follows that philosophy. If that philosophy doesn't resonate with you, why not use your own? (and develop a competitive-oriented banlist) There seems to be enough of a following here that it'd gain support.
Good to know you're taking this all so seriously and being a responsible community leader.
Here's another analogy: people are bringing semi-automatic rifles to the pistol-shooting club because there isn't a semi-automatic club, you don't have an exclusivity contract with the shooting range, and the pistol-shooters really don't like the semi-automatic shooters because they're loud and noisy.
Have you noticed that they don't get bored? That there really isn't anywhere else for them to go? That whether Sheldon likes it or not, his format has been infiltrated by people that have decided to make it into something it clearly isn't, and perpetuates this twisted version of Commander at LGS's, SCG events, and WOTC events?
I'm very happy that Armada Games is a magical sparkle candy paradise where everyone is at least 40 years old, has been playing for 20 years, and can resolve differences with multi-level diplomacy tactics.
That's not how the rest of the Commander community works.
It goes back to everyone make your own house rules. Until WOTC takes control of the format and actually revampts the ban list with cards that should be on it, things will not change. Why is it so hard to see that a revamped ban list would actually make the format better for casuals? Do you like getting wipped out on turn 3 by Ad Nauseum? How about a Tooth and Nail for Mike/Trike? Don't you see that if the ban list was revamped and tooled for competitive play, that casual play would improve too? I'm not talking about banning 100+ cards. I realize that combo can never be truly eliminated. However, there are a handful of cards that could be added that would shake up EDH, encourage new deck building, and improve the health of the format overall.
If that is so should we split legacy into 2 formats too? Since there are competitive tier 1 legacy decks and other tier 3 and under legacy casual decks. Just because I am running a casual 60-card legacy deck means I need to differentiate myself into another format? And when another "more casual player" finds the "new legacy2.0" too competitive, we refine again and split it into "legacy3.0"? When will this end?
I believe if the meta is too cut-throat for one, either find another group or upgrade the deck to suit the meta. If not just tell your playgroup that you only have a pistol and only wish to play against other players wielding pistols.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Isn't that both Sheldon and co and the French guys did?
unless it's just easier to try to force the square peg of current EDH into the round hole of competivewness.
Magic is a social game, not just EDH. If you want to play, fine, I'll play with anyone. But I won't, nor will I allow someone to dictate to me what I should play. The format does not need to be split. The RC just need to realize what the format is. This "Utopian" idea of everyone playing just for the sake of playing is a falacy. The RC seem to be unwilling to realize that people play games to win. Building an EDH deck takes time and money. Driving to an LGS takes time, and money. With that investment, people are going to want to win.
EDH is the North Korea of Magic.
How can you claim its your philosophy thats kept the format floating, when prized side events are going on at large events ? (oh..right.. they're the minority) or LGS are creating leagues and tournaments...
or could it be that EDH/Commander actually is a alt-vintage and you just refuse to accept it ?
EDIT: How is it, for a casual non-competetive format, EVERY LGS in my city has a EDH game day with prize support ? I'd wager a decent bet that a good percentage of all capable LGS have some kind of league/tournament structure for EDH with prize support (even if its just a pack).
Thats far from casual IMO.
If the RC believe that Commander is truly a casual fomat, they would do this and let players regulate their own groups. However, the fact that we have an "official" ban list does suggest that the RC does not feel that Commander is soley a casual format. They just refuse to acknowledge this fact.
But you're just assuming that Commander is going well everywhere. I seriously doubt you've played in a Commander event at an SCG/WOTC event, in which case, it is singleton Vintage, and it's discouraging and unpleasant. I seriously doubt you've been to my LGS where I've invented three different ways of trying to keep things "fun" and "casual" with the help of other players and I've still had to change it because my players find the holes in the system and exploit it for all it's worth. You're lucky that Armada Games has players with the time, experience, and patience for a massive amount of extraneous bookkeeping just to get through a game of Magic.
Do you seriously think that will go well with people?
Don't say most people's opinions, thats grossly misleading. A vocal minority wants adjustments so its better for competitive groups / tournamnets.
OR they know pistols and tanks should not be on the same battlefield and dont try and make a battlefield where they are used against each other.
Is it's not rhetoric when thats the best option avalible and people have done it before. Duel Commander did it just fine, it sounds like YOU don't want to do the work and expect the RC to cater to you and yours.
Plenty of us like it the way it is.
I started playing EDH three years ago. I had been reading about it on MTGSalvation and and GatheringMagic and thought it sounded great, so I introduced the idea to my peers and we started brewing.
For the first little while I won more than my share of games. This is probably because after reading a lot, I was more adequately prepared. But, my playgroup caught up, refined their strategies, and the playing field feels a lot more balanced now. We have our own mini meta-game with powerful strategies coming and going. Sometimes there is no point in playing Karador for a few weeks because the grave-hate has gotten so ubiquitous. Sometimes I need to start running more artifact hate to temper someone's new combo deck. My point in explaining this is to try and show that in a casual local playgroup, the players themselves can take responsibility for the meta-game. Just like in other formats, I honestly believe there should be less power-level related banning, and more player innovation to curb the efficacy of powerful cards and strategies.
For example, quite a while back one of my good friends, who has the largest collection of anyone in our playgroup, and is certainly one of the strongest players, built a Sharuum the Hegemon EDH deck. Now, I'm sure many of you are familiar with the broken things that she can do. This deck was fast: Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith, Gilded Lotus, etc.; it played all the good mana-rocks. It had powerful combos (obviously), and as most of you are aware Sharuum is a third of a combo and also recurs combo-pieces that have been binned. Now, judging by the comments I've seen on the 'net, this type of broken stuff would have a lot of people up in arms: "Sol Ring should be banned!", "Power Artifact should be banned!", "Sharuum should be banned as a commander!" etc., etc. But rather than whine and ***** when Sharuum was winning disproportionate numbers of games, we meta-gamed against it. Before long, my Karador-reanimator deck ran no artifacts at all and packed Creeping Corrosion, Pernicious Deed, Stoney-Silence, Austere Command, Akroma's Vengeance, etc. Well, this did two things. It eventually punished Sharuum so hard that my friend retired it and brewed up something less abrasive. It also made me the arch-enemy for a while, as it turns out bashing all artifacts all the time really grinds peoples gears.
No strategy is unbeatable. As far as I can tell, a lot of Magic players are just to lazy to respect their opponents. People want to play solitaire and be able to win. That's not how it works. Broken strategies and cards exist in most of the formats. You need to be prepared with answers. Don't ban it, use your wits to meta-game against it. Honestly, if the EDH RC's banned list got much more heavy-handed my playgroup would stop using it and make our own. Yes, this would make it so that we couldn't take our decks elsewhere and jump in on EDH games without changing a few things, but whatever. Most of us agree that there are a bunch of cards on the list that do not need to be there.
Smart players can deal with anything. I have lost games of EDH in which I had Primeval Titan or Consecrated Sphinx on the table as early as the second or third turn. With strong decks and good threat assessment, a table can deal with almost anything. Maybe the folks I play EDH are just stronger players than most, maybe they're just less *****y, but I almost never hear that something is "too strong for EDH" or that something "should be banned."
Anyways, I personally feel that Sheldon and the RC are doing a fine job of keeping the format groovy, even if I didn't agree with the Griselbrand and Primeval Titan bannings. If others want to invent their own format where everything powerful is banned, go nuts. You can't please everyone.