"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Two of mono white's strengths are mana doublers and land draw, which allow you to abuse Eye of Ugin. Everything colorless I listed is an important card to consider when building a mono white deck, and some fit exceptionally well in mono white, such as Dreamstone Hedron.
I don't think that White has any mana doublers other than the artifacts ones that are available to every color. Mono-Green does have Mana Reflection.
I tried to list most of the good cards mono white can use to do various things. White...colorless...does it matter? Sometimes a colorless card works exceptionally well in a particular archetype (Ebony Owl Netsuke in Owling Mine in Standard, for instance), and I think that should be mentioned. Other times, a colorless card gives a unique effect or an effect normally restricted to other colors that you can really benefit from. Why not list all of the options? How is this list not legit?
Because if you're compiling a list of strengths of a Mono-color, you shouldn't be listing a ton of artifacts and colorless cards. Those are particular reasons to play a certain color. It definitely isn't legit when you consider that you could just put the same artifact ramp package into any Mono-color deck. What are the particular reasons to use Mono-White? Use White cards to make your point that it's worthwhile to build a Mono-White deck.
I have an Iona, Shield of Emeria deck. I built a mono-white deck and listed out the tactics that my deck uses that makes it powerful. The title of your thread is Mono-White's Strengths....I listed the strengths of my deck that are only particular to playing White.
Also, I specifically didn't list some cards in the Eye of Ugin toolbox because they just don't usually go that well in mono white. An example is Psychosis Crawler, which is an extremely good card in some decks, but just not usually good here.
I think I've already covered all of this. The purpose of the post wasn't to just list good white cards. We already have a post for that. ( http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=252037 ) I'm trying to tie it all together and go over the different strategies you can follow while building your deck with these cards.
I understand the reasoning behind one of your points here, like how Vedalken Shackles/Proteus Staff/Memnarch are blue cards. But I don't think you have to say something like that. It's already understood that not every card goes into every strategy. (IE, not every deck plays the same artifacts).
The point isn't to list good white cards. It's to show that how for particular functions of the game, White has superior cards to accomplish a particular tactic.
For example, when I point out that White has the "best removal," I'm not listing a ton of good white cards. I'm simply pointing towards a strength of white and how that if you decide to build a mono-color deck, unless you're picking white, you miss the boat on having the highest tier of removal available to you.
I could probably say more on equipment and expand the "strong cards" list, but is there anything else you'd suggest?
No, you don't need to expand the list. In fact, you should contract the list. If white players were being honest, they'd know that Green does EVERY one of the big mana colorless plays you listed. Focus on actual mono-white strengths and not ones that every mono-color deck can play.
And yes, White has the best mass-LD spells. Armageddon and Ravages and Cataclysm are better and more disruptive than Obliterate and Decree but only cost 4cc. QUALITY over QUANTITY!
And yes, White has the best mass-LD spells. Armageddon and Ravages and Cataclysm are better and more disruptive than Obliterate and Decree but only cost 4cc. QUALITY over QUANTITY!
I'll definitely agree that as higher-quality mass LD spells than does, but Ravages of War is pretty much prohibitively expensive for 99% of EDH'ers, I'd guess, so you can't really count on that being part of every man's mono-:symw: mass LD suite, and not every deck can benefit from Cataclysm the same way they can from Armageddon. In fact, pretty much any non-voltron deck would struggle to. Thus, you end up with the majority of decks running Armageddon and Catastrophe, and with a relative inability to tutor for sorceries, you can't exactly call that a reliable mass LD suite that you can count on having when you need it.
I'll definitely agree that as higher-quality mass LD spells than does, but Ravages of War is pretty much prohibitively expensive for 99% of EDH'ers, I'd guess, so you can't really count on that being part of every man's mono-:symw: mass LD suite, and not every deck can benefit from Cataclysm the same way they can from Armageddon. In fact, pretty much any non-voltron deck would struggle to. Thus, you end up with the majority of decks running Armageddon and Catastrophe, and with a relative inability to tutor for sorceries, you can't exactly call that a reliable mass LD suite that you can count on having when you need it.
Budget concerns do not discount whether a card is objectively good or not. Ravages is just a functional Armageddon v.2. Budget/pauper should not be a point when the topic is simply to discuss the strength of Mono-White. It's another thing onto itself.
Well, not "every" red deck can benefit equally from Obliterate either. Some red decks benefit much more than others. And neither color with the great mass-LD cards (Red and White) have reliable ways to tutor, but what does that have to do with the fact that both colors have the best suite of mass-LD spells?
Budget concerns do not discount whether a card is objectively good or not. Ravages is just a functional Armageddon v.2. Budget/pauper should not be a point when the topic is simply to discuss the strength of Mono-White. It's another thing onto itself.
Well, not "every" red deck can benefit equally from Obliterate either. Some red decks benefit much more than others. And neither color with the great mass-LD cards (Red and White) have reliable ways to tutor, but what does that have to do with the fact that both colors have the best suite of mass-LD spells?
I'm not arguing that has "better" or "higher quality" mass LD spells than :symw:. It doesn't. very clearly has the two most efficient mass LD spells ever printed in Armageddon and Ravages of War.
However, you took my post utterly and completely out of it's context, which was a response to:
And yes, White has the best mass-LD spells. Armageddon and Ravages and Cataclysm are better and more disruptive than Obliterate and Decree but only cost 4cc. QUALITY over QUANTITY!
My point was that while unquestionably has the "best" (read: "highest quality") mass LD spells ever printed it has SO few of them available to players that the quality just doesn't make up for the lack of quantity. Most players can't afford Ravages of War, so for all practical intents and purposes it's nonexistent. I'll drop the argument about Cataclysm, because most decks that want to drop mass LD are voltron decks anyways, so that's really a nitpick. The point remains, however, that if you want to play a mono-color deck with mass LD, you're going to have better luck playing than because just doesn't have enough of it with 3 spells available to most players and 4 available to anyone who wants to shell out for Ravages of War.
The other three colors are all tied for the "arbuably-best" color in EDH....
You could probably sum up the other three colors with the following:
Counters
Draw
Ramp
Tutors
Removal
Bam that covers all 3 other colors. This type of thread is probably more useful for the weaker colors where you sometimes have to stretch to find usable cards. I am sure that they could still be useful but I doubt it would be as useful as for white and red.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
However, you took my post utterly and completely out of it's context,
Not being able to access Ravages because of price should not be a a discussion point, we're only limiting ourselves to color in this thread. The issue shouldn't have been brought up.
Just because someone chooses not to buy it doesn't mean mono-white doesn't have access to it. Just a particular player or group of players. We're talking about cardboard, at what point can anyone objectively say that a card is too expensive and therefore shouldn't be discussed or accounted for in a "strength of mono-white?"
Well, Red does have a more comprehensive suite of mass-LD cards if you take in account the not as good ones also.
I'm not counting stuff like Bend or Break, Epicenter, or Wildfire/Destructive Force.
But if you're hoping to build an optimal deck based on whatever strategy you want to execute, exactly how many of those sub-par mass-LD spells are you going to play? And if you're playing to win the game, how many mass-LD spells are you realistically looking to have to resolve in the game?
Here are the mass-LD cards from the top 50 "color" cards list which I think is a fair metric to list the "good" mass-LD cards from
White:
Armageddon
Ravages of War
Cataclysm
Catastrophe
Red:
Obliterate
Decree of Annihilation
Jokulhaups
Boom/Bust
Devastation
Wake of Destruction
Ruination
If you want to be able to play more than 4 mass-LD spells, then Red has a bigger suite. But since as a tactic, mass-LD is diminishing returns (unlike creatures which get better the more you have) blowing up the world the second/third time isn't worth nearly the same. Given the power-level on the 4cc 'Geddons, I don't think it's misleading to say that white does have the best suite of mass-LD.
Challenge for the OP: Mono-Red's Strengths ON A BUDGET! and Mono-White's Strengths ON A BUDGET!
I don't currently have any mono-colored decks, but this is making me interested...
The problem with this, particularly in mono-:symw: perhaps, is that there are so many abilities that are unique to one creature. Knight of the White Orchid comes to mind. has a bunch of creatures that perform this function. just has one. KotWO only costs a couple of bucks, but when you put together a bunch of couple buck cards to get their unique effects, which are the "strengths" of mono-:symw:, it really adds up.
If you want to be able to play more than 4 mass-LD spells, then Red has a bigger suite. But since as a tactic, mass-LD is diminishing returns (unlike creatures which get better the more you have) blowing up the world the second/third time isn't worth nearly the same.Given the power-level on the 4cc 'Geddons, I don't think it's misleading to say that white does have the best suite of mass-LD.
In fairness, in my last post, the first thing I said was:
I'm not arguing that has "better" or "higher quality" mass LD spells than :symw:. It doesn't. very clearly has the two most efficient mass LD spells ever printed in Armageddon and Ravages of War.
I think part of the problem here might be that my first encounter with mass LD in EDH was Donald's Uril, the Miststalker deck, in which he runs the land hate effects listed below, which include 9 'geddons, in addition to a handful of land screw cards. So, that's kind of always been my standard. Perhaps that's why I feel that white's handful of 'geddon effects, no matter how efficient, just aren't enough for a deck that absolutely needs to blow up all the lands to win. How many do you need? My answer is that you need exactly enough to guarantee that you can have one in your hand every time you need it, and not a turn later.
...Wow. This is incredibly helpful. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to use all this information in any of the decks I play, but having a nice, neat collection of all the reveillark/karmic guide/etc. combo pieces in one place to reference is great.
Nice, great suggestions! Thanks for spotting them for me! I'm going to update this from time to time as new sets come out, so feel free to post any ideas from new sets.
As far as including artifacts. While I agree that you can play them in any deck, certain artifacts are better suited alongside certain colors and should be considered when talking about the different strategies of each color.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
As far as including artifacts. While I agree that you can play them in any deck, certain artifacts are better suited alongside certain colors and should be considered when talking about the different strategies of each color.
Thanks for the comments. I plan on including more about stax when I update this. When I wrote it, I didn't feel I was enough of an authority on the archetype to really get into it, but I've learned a lot since then. Stay tuned!
As for the artifacts, I like to discuss ones that give white abilities it wants, but doesn't normally have, as well as powerful ways white can interact with generically-powerful artifacts. As an example, Auriok Salvagers is a white card that plays extremely well with a Salvaging Station package, offering white lots of utility and card draw it normally doesn't have access to, while also supporting a stax strategy.
Nonbo because pursuit gets a counter when you draw a card, rack merely puts those cards into your hand. Thus, it is not drawing them.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
This is true, I fail.
Ooh, thanks! Yeah, I threw those in last minute and didn't really think about it.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
I don't think that White has any mana doublers other than the artifacts ones that are available to every color. Mono-Green does have Mana Reflection.
Because if you're compiling a list of strengths of a Mono-color, you shouldn't be listing a ton of artifacts and colorless cards. Those are particular reasons to play a certain color. It definitely isn't legit when you consider that you could just put the same artifact ramp package into any Mono-color deck. What are the particular reasons to use Mono-White? Use White cards to make your point that it's worthwhile to build a Mono-White deck.
I have an Iona, Shield of Emeria deck. I built a mono-white deck and listed out the tactics that my deck uses that makes it powerful. The title of your thread is Mono-White's Strengths....I listed the strengths of my deck that are only particular to playing White.
I understand the reasoning behind one of your points here, like how Vedalken Shackles/Proteus Staff/Memnarch are blue cards. But I don't think you have to say something like that. It's already understood that not every card goes into every strategy. (IE, not every deck plays the same artifacts).
The point isn't to list good white cards. It's to show that how for particular functions of the game, White has superior cards to accomplish a particular tactic.
For example, when I point out that White has the "best removal," I'm not listing a ton of good white cards. I'm simply pointing towards a strength of white and how that if you decide to build a mono-color deck, unless you're picking white, you miss the boat on having the highest tier of removal available to you.
No, you don't need to expand the list. In fact, you should contract the list. If white players were being honest, they'd know that Green does EVERY one of the big mana colorless plays you listed. Focus on actual mono-white strengths and not ones that every mono-color deck can play.
And yes, White has the best mass-LD spells. Armageddon and Ravages and Cataclysm are better and more disruptive than Obliterate and Decree but only cost 4cc. QUALITY over QUANTITY!
I'll definitely agree that as higher-quality mass LD spells than does, but Ravages of War is pretty much prohibitively expensive for 99% of EDH'ers, I'd guess, so you can't really count on that being part of every man's mono-:symw: mass LD suite, and not every deck can benefit from Cataclysm the same way they can from Armageddon. In fact, pretty much any non-voltron deck would struggle to. Thus, you end up with the majority of decks running Armageddon and Catastrophe, and with a relative inability to tutor for sorceries, you can't exactly call that a reliable mass LD suite that you can count on having when you need it.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Budget concerns do not discount whether a card is objectively good or not. Ravages is just a functional Armageddon v.2. Budget/pauper should not be a point when the topic is simply to discuss the strength of Mono-White. It's another thing onto itself.
Well, not "every" red deck can benefit equally from Obliterate either. Some red decks benefit much more than others. And neither color with the great mass-LD cards (Red and White) have reliable ways to tutor, but what does that have to do with the fact that both colors have the best suite of mass-LD spells?
I'm not arguing that has "better" or "higher quality" mass LD spells than :symw:. It doesn't. very clearly has the two most efficient mass LD spells ever printed in Armageddon and Ravages of War.
However, you took my post utterly and completely out of it's context, which was a response to:
My point was that while unquestionably has the "best" (read: "highest quality") mass LD spells ever printed it has SO few of them available to players that the quality just doesn't make up for the lack of quantity. Most players can't afford Ravages of War, so for all practical intents and purposes it's nonexistent. I'll drop the argument about Cataclysm, because most decks that want to drop mass LD are voltron decks anyways, so that's really a nitpick. The point remains, however, that if you want to play a mono-color deck with mass LD, you're going to have better luck playing than because just doesn't have enough of it with 3 spells available to most players and 4 available to anyone who wants to shell out for Ravages of War.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I dunno... Uril + Runes of the Deus + Cataclysm is usually a pretty good time.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
The other three colors are all tied for the "arbuably-best" color in EDH....
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
You could probably sum up the other three colors with the following:
Counters
Draw
Ramp
Tutors
Removal
Bam that covers all 3 other colors. This type of thread is probably more useful for the weaker colors where you sometimes have to stretch to find usable cards. I am sure that they could still be useful but I doubt it would be as useful as for white and red.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Challenge for the OP: Mono-Red's Strengths ON A BUDGET! and Mono-White's Strengths ON A BUDGET!
I don't currently have any mono-colored decks, but this is making me interested...
Not being able to access Ravages because of price should not be a a discussion point, we're only limiting ourselves to color in this thread. The issue shouldn't have been brought up.
Just because someone chooses not to buy it doesn't mean mono-white doesn't have access to it. Just a particular player or group of players. We're talking about cardboard, at what point can anyone objectively say that a card is too expensive and therefore shouldn't be discussed or accounted for in a "strength of mono-white?"
Well, Red does have a more comprehensive suite of mass-LD cards if you take in account the not as good ones also.
I'm not counting stuff like Bend or Break, Epicenter, or Wildfire/Destructive Force.
But if you're hoping to build an optimal deck based on whatever strategy you want to execute, exactly how many of those sub-par mass-LD spells are you going to play? And if you're playing to win the game, how many mass-LD spells are you realistically looking to have to resolve in the game?
Here are the mass-LD cards from the top 50 "color" cards list which I think is a fair metric to list the "good" mass-LD cards from
White:
Armageddon
Ravages of War
Cataclysm
Catastrophe
Red:
Obliterate
Decree of Annihilation
Jokulhaups
Boom/Bust
Devastation
Wake of Destruction
Ruination
If you want to be able to play more than 4 mass-LD spells, then Red has a bigger suite. But since as a tactic, mass-LD is diminishing returns (unlike creatures which get better the more you have) blowing up the world the second/third time isn't worth nearly the same. Given the power-level on the 4cc 'Geddons, I don't think it's misleading to say that white does have the best suite of mass-LD.
The problem with this, particularly in mono-:symw: perhaps, is that there are so many abilities that are unique to one creature. Knight of the White Orchid comes to mind. has a bunch of creatures that perform this function. just has one. KotWO only costs a couple of bucks, but when you put together a bunch of couple buck cards to get their unique effects, which are the "strengths" of mono-:symw:, it really adds up.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Not really responding, just curious if you think these two threads should be put in the Helpful Links sticky.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
In fairness, in my last post, the first thing I said was:
I think part of the problem here might be that my first encounter with mass LD in EDH was Donald's Uril, the Miststalker deck, in which he runs the land hate effects listed below, which include 9 'geddons, in addition to a handful of land screw cards. So, that's kind of always been my standard. Perhaps that's why I feel that white's handful of 'geddon effects, no matter how efficient, just aren't enough for a deck that absolutely needs to blow up all the lands to win. How many do you need? My answer is that you need exactly enough to guarantee that you can have one in your hand every time you need it, and not a turn later.
1 Impending Disaster
1 Winter Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Boom // Bust
1 Catastrophe
1 Razia's Purification
1 Wildfire
1 Decree of Annihilation
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Thanks for doing this!
Fetchlands don't trigger Darien, King of Kjeldor (Only damage does, not life loss).
Serra Avatar cannot be recurred from the graveyard, she shuffles into the library as a replacement effect.
Also another good Ranger of Eos target at any point in the game: Mikaeus, the Lunarch.
Nice, great suggestions! Thanks for spotting them for me! I'm going to update this from time to time as new sets come out, so feel free to post any ideas from new sets.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
As far as including artifacts. While I agree that you can play them in any deck, certain artifacts are better suited alongside certain colors and should be considered when talking about the different strategies of each color.
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
And Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is really really good.
To get around the lack of mana ramp, use Sol Ring, Darksteel Ingot, the Wellsprings, Solemn Simulacrum, Land Tax, and the like.
A really good card is Sun Titan. I don't know if you've noticed, but seals, spellbombs, replicas, fetchlands, Strip Mine(!), Wall of Omens, Auramancer, and Salvage Scout are all CMC 3 or less.
Another source of card draw that people often forget is Armistice, affectionately known as "anti-Necro" 'round these parts.
Cho-Manno, Revolutionary should be considered in a rebel deck just for Pariah's Shield lulz.
On phasing:
Thanks for the comments. I plan on including more about stax when I update this. When I wrote it, I didn't feel I was enough of an authority on the archetype to really get into it, but I've learned a lot since then. Stay tuned!
As for the artifacts, I like to discuss ones that give white abilities it wants, but doesn't normally have, as well as powerful ways white can interact with generically-powerful artifacts. As an example, Auriok Salvagers is a white card that plays extremely well with a Salvaging Station package, offering white lots of utility and card draw it normally doesn't have access to, while also supporting a stax strategy.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Awesome! He's a great General, and woefully underplayed.
Stay tuned for the update!
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Land/card draw:
Eternal Dragon
Endless Horizons
Inheritance
Armistice
Martyr's Cry (Major tech in token decks!)
Eternal Dragon, and possibly Endless Horizons, should also be auto-includes in white decks.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W