Hi folks. One very vocal member of my local playgroup is determined to ban Terastodon. His contends that in many multiplayer games it gets ramped out quickly then reanimated again and again. My argument against is that there are many other creatures that are better, but not banned. He makes a couple good points, it is an ETB trigger, not dependent on lasting turns like Consecrated Sphinx. Iona does not affect the existing board. Jin-Gitaxias has to last at least one phase to matter.
He refuses to play the card anymore, and tried to force all of us to stop as well. I told him he cannot make up the rules for all of us to follow, and the best we could do for him is put it up to a vote prior to our next tournament (non sanctioned). He agreed, then decided his best method of getting the rule change through would be to build Momir Vig, Simic Visionary and abuse Terastodon replay.
One last note, is this really any better/different than Stax or land D?
thanks I need some argument points against a very stubborn bullheaded player!
Seems like turnabout's fair play. I say build the same deck, then abuse the ooze out of Acidic Slime. Keep him off his Terastodon mana, then ask him where your elephants are. Demand more elephants constantly. Repeat until clarity sets in.
I run Terastodon as well, but I (almost) never hit lands with it. I use it to hit artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers. It will only hit lands if they are problematic lands such as Maze of Ith. And the fact that it makes Elephant tokens is actually relevant. If someone uses it to strictly destroy someones lands, then blame the action and not the card. After all, it is a may ability.
I have had someone use Terastodon to bomb my lands. My response usually falls somewhere under "well I know where those elephants are headed now." Let me tell you that it is a GREAT feeling to kill the gu with the elephant tokens hehe.
I run Terastodon as well, but I (almost) never hit lands with it. I use it to hit artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers. It will only hit lands if they are problematic lands such as Maze of Ith. And the fact that it makes Elephant tokens is actually relevant. If someone uses it to strictly destroy someones lands, then blame the action and not the card. After all, it is a may ability.
I have had someone use Terastodon to bomb my lands. My response usually falls somewhere under "well I know where those elephants are headed now." Let me tell you that it is a GREAT feeling to kill the gu with the elephant tokens hehe.
Same goes for Gilded Drake. Don't give me a 3/3 flyer to continue beating you down with. I'll just kill the guy you stole and resume my original beatdown plan.
The real problem comes from continually bouncing Drake/The Big Elephant, but that is a whole other issue in and of itself.
If you can land Terastodon on, say, turn 3 or 4, whichever opponent you target with it is going to have one heck of a time trying to recover from that. On the flip side, I've been beaten to death with the 3/3 tokens I gave my opponent more times than I care to admit. So, while I can understand frustration with the card, I still think it's reasonably balanced, although easily abusable.
Play UB. Use black tutors to find Bribery and destroy his manabase with his own Terastodon. If you're in BUG you can also Praetor's Grasp it and cast it yourself. As a bonus, BUG as a color combination is much more broken than Terastodon will ever be, so you can rub that in his face.
Same goes for Gilded Drake. Don't give me a 3/3 flyer to continue beating you down with. I'll just kill the guy you stole and resume my original beatdown plan.
The real problem comes from continually bouncing Drake/The Big Elephant, but that is a whole other issue in and of itself.
Yeah, I was going to say... That drake can be damn bonkers if you have a way to bounce it in and out of play, lol.
actually I think the best way to use gilded drake is to play it and sac it right off, exile it to your mimic vat, then steal every good/relevant creature on the board
If I were you I would just point out that its multiplayer. If you turn 4 terastadon a guy then hes set back and basically has reset his game. But there are 2-3 other players to worry about. If one player RFG terastadon, its GG for the abuse.
I personally dont think terastadon is busted at all. BUG with deadeye navigator, ooze, terastadon, etc can easily be busted...but thats just BUG for you.
Play Torpor Orb and ask him how good a vanilla 9/9 for 8 is.
Honestly, I see Terastodon used to generate Elephants for the caster as (if not more) often as destroying opponents' lands. Of course, the number one target for Terastodon is problematic artifacts and enchantments, which really isn't a big deal. At least they're not stealing the problematic permanents with Blatant Thievery.
any creature in ur deck can be used against u. when prim titan was around, everybody on the table rez, cloned, stole him nonstop. did your friend complained bout prim?
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As some one who plays a lot of enchantments and artifacts that screw the table up, cards like terastadon are necessary. It's almost always played against my board, and honestly, I don blame them and I don't complain.
Your friend is just being a baby.
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ComeAtMeBro.dec just a few ideas for saying no to abusing a specific card heavily. Most of them exile from library, a few exile off a counter, and of course one to get a use out of the creature then exile it. And most are good cards in their own rights as well.
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Seems like turnabout's fair play. I say build the same deck, then abuse the ooze out of Acidic Slime. Keep him off his Terastodon mana, then ask him where your elephants are. Demand more elephants constantly. Repeat until clarity sets in.
Acidic Slime has a CMC of 5. Terastadon is 8. However, it takes 3 Slimes to equal the ETB effect of 1 Terastadon, and 4.5 Slimes to equal the power a single Terry, which we'll average and round to 4. On the other hand, Terry grants 3 elephant tokens at 3/3. Yet you're trading a 3/3 for an opponents best artifact, land, enchantment, or planeswalker, so this hardly matters, or if you're planning around it you can turn it to your advantage, so we'll call it a -2. Therefore, putting it all together you get 4(5)-2 = 18. Therefore, the Terastodon is 18 times better than Acidic Slime.
Terrastadon is OP and i played a game where a guy just <raped> with a combo. (He cloned it twice then RFGed my friend's terastadon. So the only way we had to deal with this guy was now gone.
Okay, Terastodon is no where near broken. Seriously. I mean yes you can hit lands with it. But so what? There are so many other bad cards in the game, this doesn't even come close. You know what sucks more than Terastodon? Eldrazi. How about a unstoppable Annihilator 4? That is almost impossible to kill? Yeah there are worst thinks than the Terastodon. In my play group, the only house ban we have, which really is a ban, more of a rule, is that Consecrated Sphinx is a legendary permanent, that way no one can do stupid draws off the other's sphinxes. If your friend really wanted something done about the Terastodon, you guys could just make it a legendary permanent
Terrastadon is OP and i played a game where a guy just raped with a combo. (He cloned it twice then RFGed my friend's terastadon. So the only way we had to deal with this guy was now gone.
He cost like 8 mana, of course he's going to be good. Doesn't make him OP. For 8 mana you know what else you could do?
Get 13 2/2s (26 power)
Get an 8/8 with flying and vigilance that makes all your permanents indestructible
Win the game if you control a basic land of each type
Destroy all creatures and draw a card for each creature that died
Get Griselbrand
Untap all creatures and gain control of them until end of turn. They gain haste until end of turn.
Get a 7/5 with Creatures you control have haste. and Cascade, cascade
Myojin of Night's Reach
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Destroy all creatures target opponent controls. Draw a card for each creature destroyed this way.
Return all cards from your graveyard to your hand. And have no maximum hand size for the rest of the game.
Scorned Egotist
Vorinclex
Woodfall Primus
How is he soo strong that he is better than more than one of those.
He cost like 8 mana, of course he's going to be good. Doesn't make him OP. For 8 mana you know what else you could do?
Get 13 2/2s (26 power)
Get an 8/8 with flying and vigilance that makes all your permanents indestructible
Win the game if you control a basic land of each type
Destroy all creatures and draw a card for each creature that died
Get Griselbrand
Untap all creatures and gain control of them until end of turn. They gain haste until end of turn.
Get a 7/5 with Creatures you control have haste. and Cascade, cascade
Myojin of Night's Reach
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Destroy all creatures target opponent controls. Draw a card for each creature destroyed this way.
Return all cards from your graveyard to your hand. And have no maximum hand size for the rest of the game.
Scorned Egotist
Vorinclex
Woodfall Primus
How is he soo strong that he is better than more than one of those.
Terrastodon Costs 9. Counterspell only costs 2. There are many many answers to this one card. Terrastodon is most definitely not the only card to have an immediate impact on the board either. For instance Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite has a big impact and doesn't grant anyone 3/3 elephants in return.
1) He has trample, meaning he doesn't just bounce off of tokens all day
2) He has persist, making him survive sweepers and come back to hit a second thing
3) He doesn't give his victims Elephants to block or swing with
4) If he's Bribery'd out, YOU get him back after he dies.
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personally I would support such a ban. Most people would disagree, but:
Terastodon is just one of a plethora of cards that leads to incredibly degenerate game states.
Most games I play where someone lands Tbags on the table end up like this
Me: Bribery your Tbags, kill 3 of your lands
Player 2: Phantasmal Image Tbags, 3 of YOUR lands
Player 3: Phyrexian metamorph Tbags, whatever lands are left
Player 4: kill Phantasmal Image, Reanimate it, make a Tbags, kill 3 more lands
personally I would support such a ban. Most people would disagree, but:
Terastodon is just one of a plethora of cards that leads to incredibly degenerate game states.
Most games I play where someone lands Tbags on the table end up like this
Me: Bribery your Tbags, kill 3 of your lands
Player 2: Phantasmal Image Tbags, 3 of YOUR lands
Player 3: Phyrexian metamorph Tbags, whatever lands are left
Player 4: kill Phantasmal Image, Reanimate it, make a Tbags, kill 3 more lands
Everyone: ELEPHANT FIGHT!
How is this a degenerate game state and not just a great opportunity to drop a wrath?
personally I would support such a ban. Most people would disagree, but:
Terastodon is just one of a plethora of cards that leads to incredibly degenerate game states.
Most games I play where someone lands Tbags on the table end up like this
Me: Bribery your Tbags, kill 3 of your lands
Player 2: Phantasmal Image Tbags, 3 of YOUR lands
Player 3: Phyrexian metamorph Tbags, whatever lands are left
Player 4: kill Phantasmal Image, Reanimate it, make a Tbags, kill 3 more lands
Everyone: ELEPHANT FIGHT!
So essentially, everyone set each other back 3 lands...how is this degenerate at all?
If you can land Terastodon on, say, turn 3 or 4, whichever opponent you target with it is going to have one heck of a time trying to recover from that. On the flip side, I've been beaten to death with the 3/3 tokens I gave my opponent more times than I care to admit. So, while I can understand frustration with the card, I still think it's reasonably balanced, although easily abusable.
You can land him EOT T1 (kinda pointless) or EOT T2 with Flash. And then reanimate him for double trigger action. lol. Tutors really help this out, doesn't guarantee a win, and doesn't afraid of anything.
I used to get some good hands and do this with Prime Time. Those were the days.
As Wildfire said, there is Woodfall Primus....I would say Primus is a safer choice than T-dizzle, but if your deck is built to abuse an "I'm all in" strategy, T-dizzle wrecks more. If you're packing Powder Keg, Pernicious Deed, or can tutor to put Devastation Tide on top of your library, those elephants aren't so scary.
Got your Don bribed? Live by the elephant, die by the elephant.
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He refuses to play the card anymore, and tried to force all of us to stop as well. I told him he cannot make up the rules for all of us to follow, and the best we could do for him is put it up to a vote prior to our next tournament (non sanctioned). He agreed, then decided his best method of getting the rule change through would be to build Momir Vig, Simic Visionary and abuse Terastodon replay.
One last note, is this really any better/different than Stax or land D?
thanks I need some argument points against a very stubborn bullheaded player!
I have had someone use Terastodon to bomb my lands. My response usually falls somewhere under "well I know where those elephants are headed now." Let me tell you that it is a GREAT feeling to kill the gu with the elephant tokens hehe.
Same goes for Gilded Drake. Don't give me a 3/3 flyer to continue beating you down with. I'll just kill the guy you stole and resume my original beatdown plan.
The real problem comes from continually bouncing Drake/The Big Elephant, but that is a whole other issue in and of itself.
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Confusion in the Ranks is pretty hilarious for hosing Terastodon.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Yeah, I was going to say... That drake can be damn bonkers if you have a way to bounce it in and out of play, lol.
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I personally dont think terastadon is busted at all. BUG with deadeye navigator, ooze, terastadon, etc can easily be busted...but thats just BUG for you.
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Honestly, I see Terastodon used to generate Elephants for the caster as (if not more) often as destroying opponents' lands. Of course, the number one target for Terastodon is problematic artifacts and enchantments, which really isn't a big deal. At least they're not stealing the problematic permanents with Blatant Thievery.
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Your friend is just being a baby.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
ComeAtMeBro.dec just a few ideas for saying no to abusing a specific card heavily. Most of them exile from library, a few exile off a counter, and of course one to get a use out of the creature then exile it. And most are good cards in their own rights as well.
Not true, see the post by Sparxmith:
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He cost like 8 mana, of course he's going to be good. Doesn't make him OP. For 8 mana you know what else you could do?
Get 13 2/2s (26 power)
Get an 8/8 with flying and vigilance that makes all your permanents indestructible
Win the game if you control a basic land of each type
Destroy all creatures and draw a card for each creature that died
Get Griselbrand
Untap all creatures and gain control of them until end of turn. They gain haste until end of turn.
Get a 7/5 with Creatures you control have haste. and Cascade, cascade
Myojin of Night's Reach
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Destroy all creatures target opponent controls. Draw a card for each creature destroyed this way.
Return all cards from your graveyard to your hand. And have no maximum hand size for the rest of the game.
Scorned Egotist
Vorinclex
Woodfall Primus
How is he soo strong that he is better than more than one of those.
^this!!
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1) He has trample, meaning he doesn't just bounce off of tokens all day
2) He has persist, making him survive sweepers and come back to hit a second thing
3) He doesn't give his victims Elephants to block or swing with
4) If he's Bribery'd out, YOU get him back after he dies.
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Terastodon is just one of a plethora of cards that leads to incredibly degenerate game states.
Most games I play where someone lands Tbags on the table end up like this
Me: Bribery your Tbags, kill 3 of your lands
Player 2: Phantasmal Image Tbags, 3 of YOUR lands
Player 3: Phyrexian metamorph Tbags, whatever lands are left
Player 4: kill Phantasmal Image, Reanimate it, make a Tbags, kill 3 more lands
Everyone: ELEPHANT FIGHT!
How is this a degenerate game state and not just a great opportunity to drop a wrath?
So essentially, everyone set each other back 3 lands...how is this degenerate at all?
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
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1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
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1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
You can land him EOT T1 (kinda pointless) or EOT T2 with Flash. And then reanimate him for double trigger action. lol. Tutors really help this out, doesn't guarantee a win, and doesn't afraid of anything.
I used to get some good hands and do this with Prime Time. Those were the days.
As Wildfire said, there is Woodfall Primus....I would say Primus is a safer choice than T-dizzle, but if your deck is built to abuse an "I'm all in" strategy, T-dizzle wrecks more. If you're packing Powder Keg, Pernicious Deed, or can tutor to put Devastation Tide on top of your library, those elephants aren't so scary.
Got your Don bribed? Live by the elephant, die by the elephant.