My only critique is something I see in a lot of new EDH players who post their fledgling lists on various forums. I would suggest adding a section that describes the fundamental difference between this format and other formats. Specifically, lots of new players think that just because card X is good in one format (draft, standard, extended, etc), then it should be good in this one as well.
For example, a card like Cruel Ultimatum is quite good in both Standard (when legal) and Extended, but unless you have about six Twincasts lined up next to it (or a single Radiate), it's pretty awful in EDH. Other examples would be things like Bloodbraid Elf, Arc Trail, and my number one favorite card to rip on in EDH: Ponder. Every time I see a Ponder in an EDH deck, it makes me want to commit felonies.
EDIT: Another way to look at this is to remind people that this is a format where you have MULTIPLE opponents with 40 life EACH, not ONE opponent with only 20 life.
Anywho, I just thought you should add something like this to your primer to help people avoid this common misconception.
Added to the 8 Prime Elements section: A brief explaination of the difference between edh and other formats, plus:
Some cards I see a lot of new deckbuilders play that they shouldn't and why:
(Keep in mind that even these cards could find a home in the right edh build for certain combos/synergies, but leave that for later)
Dark Confidant - One of the best creatures ever printed. Great card draw on a stick for Legacy, but in EDH He Will Kill You! You're going to be turning over 5+ cmc cards all the time, you don't want to lose that much life every turn. Much better card draw in black is Phyrexian Arena or Promise of Power.
Lightning Bolt - You may kill a utility creature with it, but most of the time you're going to need to kill something more like Simic Sky Swallower. Removal is very important, but make sure it will kill anything you need it to kill. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight..... or a lightning bolt to a Damnation fight.
Ponder - Again with the thinking small. Great card in standard, but in EDH... no. You want to draw cards, use something that will draw you several. For instance, Mulldrifter draws you two, can easily be blinked or recurred to do it over and over again, and gives you a little flyer to use as you see fit. You want to dig for answers? Do it right, use a tutor.
Bloodbraid Elf - The beast that put Jund at the top of the Tier One standard decks.... and did absolutely nothing for EDH. A 3/2 non-evasive hasty in EDH is just a fly waiting to get swatted, and the cascade is not very relevant in EDH either. It might get you a free spot removal spell (that you might not need yet), but your not going to be packin' a lot of little spells.
Arc Trail - So you got to hit your opponents Rafiq backed Darksteel Colossus for 2 points of damage and got to take his controller from 40 life all the way down to 39. You're about to get smacked in the face with 24 points of trample. Trust me, you won't win this race.
Dark Ritual - Yes, you might get your 4 drop out on turn 2. But then you'll watch it die and wish you had those two cards back. Mana accel is great, but it needs to stick around for a while or at a minimum be re-useable. Putting extra lands in play or dropping a mana accelerating artifact are both MUCH better options.
Tarmogoyf" target="blank">Tarmogoyf - Now, while Goyf has plenty of merit in the correct edh deck (aggro with lots of stuff that give him evasion and pump), don't just stick him in your deck because you're using green and you paid 50 bucks for him. You'll just get mad watching a 50-cent Inkwell Leviathan" target="blank">Inkwell Leviathan picking goyf bits out of his teeth.
I think you should probably change the part of "Think big" to "Think big, but don't think too big." The reason I bring this up is because when I first started playing EDH, I was told the exact same advice as you have in the OP -- don't play cards like Naturalize and Lightning Bolt and play big splashy spells like Chain Reaction and Indrik Stomphowler instead. The end result is that my very first few EDH decks sucked pretty badly because I was loading my deck with too much big stuff. Yes, you do need to gear up to the late game and play some big stuff, but you still need to have some sort of a resemblance of a curve or you're going to be in trouble.
Small utility spells are still worth playing in EDH. It's why almost every white deck runs Swords to Plowshares. Even though it's a 1-for-1, there will be many times when you have to kill a creature now and you can't afford to wait to your next main phase or drop another land or two so you can cast Rout. Obviously I understand that cards like Naturalize just plain suck and there's pretty much nothing to get around that.
Basic utility spells are good if they have some redeeming factor to them. It doesn't have to be something that automatically generates card advantage like a reset button or have an absolutely crushing effect like Identity Crisis. For example, Krosan Grip has split second -- very good for busting up potential permanent-based combos and killing Tops.
That being said, I like the compilation so far. Keep it up!
I think this is a very valuable resource. At the risk of inflating its length, it might be good to throw in a line or two (if there isn't one already there that I overlooked) about commander-reliance; something that I feel is important that I think novices overlook is that it's nice if a deck doesn't fall over completely if the commander is tucked or faith's fetters'd or stolen or whatever, and that the more the deck needs the commander around to work, the more important it is to have ways to protect it. (The flip side is that if you never intend to cast your commander, then you're sort of mulliganning.)
A more subtle point is the flipside - that while your commander isn't always around, it's usually around, and thus you don't need as many cards that are redundant in function with your commander as you might think. The most common example is that if your general is a big flying beater like an angel or a dragon, you don't need twenty other angels or dragons in your deck. (It's reasonable as a thematic choice, of course.) Creature counts can be lower than you might expect in say, an equipment-based deck, because you normally have at least one guy to put stuff on - your commander. This whole point might be too subtle for an intro primer, and doesn't affect many decks.
Surging Chaos and Joyd. Agreed on both. I'll figure out a way to incorporate those ideas and have them in by this time tomorrow night. I appreciate the help.
Joyd, I'll probably add an "extra topics" section at the end for inclusion of the more subtle stuff. Lol, I've pretty much given up on containing the size of the guide, it's gotten completely out of control at this point and I just can't stop myself Assuming it's ok with you, I'll copy/paste some of your text into the section as I think you put it very well.
You said Hinder was good, because it put the general on the bottom of the library? Uh...Hate to break it to you, but it puts it on top. They can play it next turn, just for it's normal cost.
Other than that, fantastic primer, especially for someone (like myself) trying to get into EDH.
You said Hinder was good, because it put the general on the bottom of the library? Uh...Hate to break it to you, but it puts it on top. They can play it next turn, just for it's normal cost.
Other than that, fantastic primer, especially for someone (like myself) trying to get into EDH.
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put that card on the top OR BOTTOM of its owner's library instead of into that player's graveyard.
Other than that, fantastic primer, especially for someone (like myself) trying to get into EDH.
Glad you like it... welcome to EDH. I see someone already got to you about Hinder. No prob. It really is a fantastic hard counter for EDH. I wouldn't even consider a blue build without it.
You said Hinder was good, because it put the general on the bottom of the library? Uh...Hate to break it to you, but it puts it on top. They can play it next turn, just for it's normal cost.
Other than that, fantastic primer, especially for someone (like myself) trying to get into EDH.
Coincidentally, if you're going to play counterspells in EDH, ones like this won't draw nearly as much hate as the old standby. Even more friendly is Arcane Denial, a spell no friendly blue player should be without.
I'd phrase it as, "think big, but have a plan for getting there." Which basically means play more expensive N-for-1 effects and load up on mana acceleration to cast it. Indrik Stomphowler is great, but not if your deck is only 40% mana sources.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think if you want a good summary for creatures it could basically read "creatures should either be large or provide utility, small aggro creatures don't do nearly as much." Overall though a great read!
Quick Question: You mentioned that Sol Ring is banned under two of the three EDH banned lists. My question is this: Which banned list will WOTC go with when they release Commander? Do you think Sol Ring be officially banned for Commander as well?
Quick comment: You forgot to list Wanderwine Hub under the Lorwyn Tribal Dual Land section. But otherwise, great job!
Quick Question: You mentioned that Sol Ring is banned under two of the three EDH banned lists. My question is this: Which banned list will WOTC go with when they release Commander? Do you think Sol Ring be officially banned for Commander as well?
Quick comment: You forgot to list Wanderwine Hub under the Lorwyn Tribal Dual Land section. But otherwise, great job!
I missed the hub? I'll go take a look and put it in. Thanks for catching that for me. And thanks for the compliment, I'm glad some people are finding it useful.
For the banned list - I really doubt Sol Ring will end up on the WOTC list. The two lists that it's on now are specifically for duels, and everything I've seen from Wizards is all about multiplayer. But you never know, and I'm no insider on what theyre thinking, but that's my guess anyway.
Black - Using the graveyard and your life total as resources.
Creature Removal
Card Draw
Tutoring for anything
Creature Recursion
Hand Disruption
Sacrifice
I feel like you could maybe mention "Mana Ramp (Mono B only)" here somehow. With Cabal Coffers, Nirkana Revenant, etc etc, Mono-Black decks can generate more mana than anyone else but a dedicated Green ramp deck.
Also 'Capping' maybe? Black has a strong suite of library disruption (a la Sadistic Sacrament and Bitter Ordeal) that are great for wrecking combo decks, and it's hard to come by those effects in other colors.
White - Defense
Lifegain
Equipments
Enchantments
Creature and Enchantment Recursion
Removal of just about anything
Tokens
Tutoring for enchantments and equipments
Red - Aggro
Direct Damage Combos
Flying Dragons
Artifact Removal
Land Destruction! Red's the best at that.
I'm not sure 'Direct Damage' needs 'Combos' attached. Bogardan Hellkite doesn't need a combo to be a good card. Big or repeatable direct damage is fine on its own even if it isn't infinite.
Had some suggestions on the 'strengths of each color' section
I'll include them, thanks.
Equipments.... hmmm... yeah, but doesn't it depend on the context? I think you're right, but it seems like there is a time when "equipments" is proper (or at least acceptable).
Like cheese. Lots of cheese, or a variety of cheeses.
Equipment, lots of equipment, or a variety of equipments. no?
Lol, maybe it's that I read & watch too much media that uses Old English. My sister's a speech & communication prof, I'll ask her.
OP probably meant Phyrexian Tower..
Oops, fzian's correct, it should've been Phyrexian Tower. I'll go change it now. Good catch, thank you!
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Silvos, Rogue Elemental with tons and tons of land pull like Growth Spasm, Primal Growth, Rampant Growth, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Nature's Lore, Hunting Wilds, Skyshroud Claim, and Explosive Vegetation. Mix in cards like Allosaurus Rider and Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer to deliver more beatdown and you're good. On top of that you can throw in Patron of the Orochi and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary to get REALLY nuts! Seedborn Muse too, and even Omnath, Locus of Mana as another potential general.
My only critique is something I see in a lot of new EDH players who post their fledgling lists on various forums. I would suggest adding a section that describes the fundamental difference between this format and other formats. Specifically, lots of new players think that just because card X is good in one format (draft, standard, extended, etc), then it should be good in this one as well.
For example, a card like Cruel Ultimatum is quite good in both Standard (when legal) and Extended, but unless you have about six Twincasts lined up next to it (or a single Radiate), it's pretty awful in EDH. Other examples would be things like Bloodbraid Elf, Arc Trail, and my number one favorite card to rip on in EDH: Ponder. Every time I see a Ponder in an EDH deck, it makes me want to commit felonies.
EDIT: Another way to look at this is to remind people that this is a format where you have MULTIPLE opponents with 40 life EACH, not ONE opponent with only 20 life.
Anywho, I just thought you should add something like this to your primer to help people avoid this common misconception.
Added to the 8 Prime Elements section: A brief explaination of the difference between edh and other formats, plus:
Some cards I see a lot of new deckbuilders play that they shouldn't and why:
(Keep in mind that even these cards could find a home in the right edh build for certain combos/synergies, but leave that for later)
Dark Confidant - One of the best creatures ever printed. Great card draw on a stick for Legacy, but in EDH He Will Kill You! You're going to be turning over 5+ cmc cards all the time, you don't want to lose that much life every turn. Much better card draw in black is Phyrexian Arena or Promise of Power.
Lightning Bolt - You may kill a utility creature with it, but most of the time you're going to need to kill something more like Simic Sky Swallower. Removal is very important, but make sure it will kill anything you need it to kill. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight..... or a lightning bolt to a Damnation fight.
Ponder - Again with the thinking small. Great card in standard, but in EDH... no. You want to draw cards, use something that will draw you several. For instance, Mulldrifter draws you two, can easily be blinked or recurred to do it over and over again, and gives you a little flyer to use as you see fit. You want to dig for answers? Do it right, use a tutor.
Bloodbraid Elf - The beast that put Jund at the top of the Tier One standard decks.... and did absolutely nothing for EDH. A 3/2 non-evasive hasty in EDH is just a fly waiting to get swatted, and the cascade is not very relevant in EDH either. It might get you a free spot removal spell (that you might not need yet), but your not going to be packin' a lot of little spells.
Arc Trail - So you got to hit your opponents Rafiq backed Darksteel Colossus for 2 points of damage and got to take his controller from 40 life all the way down to 39. You're about to get smacked in the face with 24 points of trample. Trust me, you won't win this race.
Dark Ritual - Yes, you might get your 4 drop out on turn 2. But then you'll watch it die and wish you had those two cards back. Mana accel is great, but it needs to stick around for a while or at a minimum be re-useable. Putting extra lands in play or dropping a mana accelerating artifact are both MUCH better options.
Tarmogoyf" target="blank">Tarmogoyf - Now, while Goyf has plenty of merit in the correct edh deck (aggro with lots of stuff that give him evasion and pump), don't just stick him in your deck because you're using green and you paid 50 bucks for him. You'll just get mad watching a 50-cent Inkwell Leviathan" target="blank">Inkwell Leviathan picking goyf bits out of his teeth.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Added a section about "Synergy".
Added a bonus section at the end about "not being a jerk", keeping a sharp distinction between casual playgroups and competitive play.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Actually, that was more of an oversight due to my small brain having to process too much at one time. I'll add them now. Thanks for reminding me.
More updates:
Added additional multiplayer vs duels info and did some general cleaning up.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Small utility spells are still worth playing in EDH. It's why almost every white deck runs Swords to Plowshares. Even though it's a 1-for-1, there will be many times when you have to kill a creature now and you can't afford to wait to your next main phase or drop another land or two so you can cast Rout. Obviously I understand that cards like Naturalize just plain suck and there's pretty much nothing to get around that.
Basic utility spells are good if they have some redeeming factor to them. It doesn't have to be something that automatically generates card advantage like a reset button or have an absolutely crushing effect like Identity Crisis. For example, Krosan Grip has split second -- very good for busting up potential permanent-based combos and killing Tops.
That being said, I like the compilation so far. Keep it up!
A more subtle point is the flipside - that while your commander isn't always around, it's usually around, and thus you don't need as many cards that are redundant in function with your commander as you might think. The most common example is that if your general is a big flying beater like an angel or a dragon, you don't need twenty other angels or dragons in your deck. (It's reasonable as a thematic choice, of course.) Creature counts can be lower than you might expect in say, an equipment-based deck, because you normally have at least one guy to put stuff on - your commander. This whole point might be too subtle for an intro primer, and doesn't affect many decks.
Joyd, I'll probably add an "extra topics" section at the end for inclusion of the more subtle stuff. Lol, I've pretty much given up on containing the size of the guide, it's gotten completely out of control at this point and I just can't stop myself
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Other than that, fantastic primer, especially for someone (like myself) trying to get into EDH.
Join the Poetry Running Contest!
Capitalised and bolded for emphasis.
Glad you like it... welcome to EDH. I see someone already got to you about Hinder. No prob. It really is a fantastic hard counter for EDH. I wouldn't even consider a blue build without it.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
I believe you were thinking of Remand.
Coincidentally, if you're going to play counterspells in EDH, ones like this won't draw nearly as much hate as the old standby. Even more friendly is Arcane Denial, a spell no friendly blue player should be without.
Who am I kidding, what blue players are friendly?
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Quick Question: You mentioned that Sol Ring is banned under two of the three EDH banned lists. My question is this: Which banned list will WOTC go with when they release Commander? Do you think Sol Ring be officially banned for Commander as well?
Quick comment: You forgot to list Wanderwine Hub under the Lorwyn Tribal Dual Land section. But otherwise, great job!
S
My Trade Binder...come take a look!
I missed the hub? I'll go take a look and put it in. Thanks for catching that for me. And thanks for the compliment, I'm glad some people are finding it useful.
For the banned list - I really doubt Sol Ring will end up on the WOTC list. The two lists that it's on now are specifically for duels, and everything I've seen from Wizards is all about multiplayer. But you never know, and I'm no insider on what theyre thinking, but that's my guess anyway.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
And yes, that is "Wizards follows the banlist", not the other way round.
And I bet viperesque has wanted to say that for sone time.:P
Had some suggestions on the 'strengths of each color' section:
I feel like you could maybe mention "Mana Ramp (Mono B only)" here somehow. With Cabal Coffers, Nirkana Revenant, etc etc, Mono-Black decks can generate more mana than anyone else but a dedicated Green ramp deck.
Also 'Capping' maybe? Black has a strong suite of library disruption (a la Sadistic Sacrament and Bitter Ordeal) that are great for wrecking combo decks, and it's hard to come by those effects in other colors.
Worth mentioning copy effects? Clone and friends are much better in EDH than other formats, and Blue gets a lot of those effects.
I always thought 'Equipment' was its own plural.
Land Destruction! Red's the best at that.
I'm not sure 'Direct Damage' needs 'Combos' attached. Bogardan Hellkite doesn't need a combo to be a good card. Big or repeatable direct damage is fine on its own even if it isn't infinite.
I'll include them, thanks.
Equipments.... hmmm... yeah, but doesn't it depend on the context? I think you're right, but it seems like there is a time when "equipments" is proper (or at least acceptable).
Like cheese. Lots of cheese, or a variety of cheeses.
Equipment, lots of equipment, or a variety of equipments. no?
Lol, maybe it's that I read & watch too much media that uses Old English. My sister's a speech & communication prof, I'll ask her.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
My 360 Commons Cube
Glad you like it.
Updated:
Cleaned up a bit and filled out/expanded a couple sections.
I think I've gone about as far as I can (save minor tweaking) without having to change the name to "Giant, Bloated Guide...."
I'll try to call it temporarily "finished" in a couple days.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire