This is what kind of had me adopt that philosophy. Not only do you need to possibly resleeve them and move them from this deck to that, but you have recount your deck, then remember where you put that card last, or at the end of the game move them back to the main deck. All while everyone is drawing their 7 and staring at you. The proxy accomplishes the same thing without the aggravation and time consumption.
Agreed completely.
Sure, I could take the time to locate my Mirari's Wake in my Rafiq deck, re-sleeve it to put it into my Rhys deck, etc, but why bother when doing so slows down the next game even a little bit?
WHA?!?!?! No coffers in a Geth deck? Go buy that now. Then go get a Urborg, ToY. And please tell me you are playing a Magus of the Coffers at least.
There is no eventually... you need this land, it's what powers Geth. Huge mana stealing craziness!
I picked up a Magus of the Coffers on ebay recently, and as soon as it arrives, it will be going into my Geth deck. And I'm considering picking up the Archenemy set that includes Coffers, if I can find one.
My question for those that approve proxies: How many proxies do you run across your decks?
Across all of my decks? 1000+
It seems like many of the anti-proxy arguments here are anti-high-power-edh arguments. I have powerful proxy decks and weak proxy decks, don't get why you think proxies automatically means broken powerful cards.
You are right and wrong at the same time. Yeah, the arguments are the same - because people tend to proxy the powerful and expensive cards.
It sounds a little bit strange, but the monetary cost of building a deck is the only thing that limits the people. Without limits the things get more and more broken. Is this limitation a good thing? I'm not sure. To be honest, I don't like it when someone makes proxies of powerful and expensive cards he/she could never afford. Then again, I also don't like it when someone wins just because of his fat wallet. Maybe allowing proxies is the only way of making the game fair, meaning everybody has the same chances to win?
Then again, I just dislike proxies.
What do you mean "the people"? You really think everyone will act the same way?
Like I said, I proxy expensive cards and worthless cards and build good and bad decks with them. edh is a casual format, I try to make decks that I'll have fun with regardless of price or power level.
Proxies completely remove the wallet issue like you mentioned. The price of cards isn't as good at regulating the game as just having fun is.
And I'm considering picking up the Archenemy set that includes Coffers, if I can find one.
I did that. The deck has lots of good cards for Geth.
Unfortunately it's really really hard to find now...
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Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
It sounds a little bit strange, but the monetary cost of building a deck is the only thing that limits the people. Without limits the things get more and more broken. Is this limitation a good thing? I'm not sure. To be honest, I don't like it when someone makes proxies of powerful and expensive cards he/she could never afford. Then again, I also don't like it when someone wins just because of his fat wallet. Maybe allowing proxies is the only way of making the game fair, meaning everybody has the same chances to win?
It is my opinion that that limitation is a good thing. I'd rather lose to someone because they have a bigger bank account than I do than because they printed out more cards than I did. YMMV.
Proxies completely remove the wallet issue like you mentioned. The price of cards isn't as good at regulating the game as just having fun is.
I feel that it is. A big part of the "fun" of Magic for me is the allure of really rare, really expensive, really difficult-to-track-down cards. If Wizards was to reprint every card as a common tomorrow, yeah, it'd be cool that we could all play with every card we ever dreamed of playing with, but you might as well be playing with pieces of cereal boxes that you drew a picture on. The rarity and costliness of certain cards is a big part of what makes this game intriguing, imho.
Not clear at all Mr.Windows, you didnt say anything about one per turn did you? Nowhere in the context of your post was that implied, just another one of your reaching "arguments" but im gonna stop feeding you now.
Now it is clear. And calling in reaching and then not explaining how it is doesn't help. Can we abandon the one land drop a turn rule since it is casual? No? Why not? It isn't like this is competitive.
I am not reaching. I am picking a rule and doing the same as the pro proxy player. Ignoring it and claiming that we aren't playing competitive so that is the justification that it is ok. Just my idea seems ridiculous and would be considered cheating to you. Hmmmm, that seems odd. It is just being ridiculous and reaching if I decide to disregard a rule because it is a casual format, but when you do it all of a sudden it is ok and should be done and no one should have any complaints over it. Seems a little dishonest to me.
OK, I know I'm sort of belaboring this point, but with the internet around, NO CARD IS RARE. If I wanted an imperial seal I could buy that sucker for...wow, really, $750? that's crazy. But anyway, if I really wanted to, I could buy just about any card short of Shichifukujin Dragon and have it within a week.
Some cards are expensive, but realistically nothing is truly hard to acquire if you have the funds. I remember when I pretty much only had what I could trade my friends for, and that was fun, but if you're any kind of serious about the game, you have to acknowledge that, in terms of the difficulty of acquiring cards, money is the only factor.
I support the use of proxies, but under certain conditions.
1. When the cards in question haven't been released yet. I've had Avacyn, Sigarda, Gisela and Triumph of Ferocity in my Mayael deck for at least 2 weeks. I plan to pick them all up when I make it to the LGS thisafternoon, and I replaced my Triumph with one I picked up whilst judging prereleases.
2. When the cards are impossible to acquire. NOTE that this does NOT include cost. One of the guys in my playgroup will always turn up with a proxied deck, because he doesn't want to buy the cards. I let him play, but I'll Death by Dragons targetting him, if you know what I mean.
Basically, I have a proxy Ulamog in my EDH deck, because I haven't been able to find one locally or in trade for a very long time. I ask my playgroup to appreciate that I'm continually hunting for an Ulamog to replace it. They appreciate it, and noone pokes fun at my Ulamog. I have made an effort to print it out at high DPI in colour, so noone has trouble identifying it or reading it.
3. When the card in question is an expensive card/is very hard to acquire and is owned, but in another deck, or the card in question is incredibly valuable and is being played in a hard case. I have a friend who has full playsets of Alpha (Beta for Volcanic Island) duals, each one signed by Richard Garfield and the card's artist. We think they're worth more than $500 each, so we let him proxy the cards, leaving the originals in the display frame. Basically, I'm fine with P-Titty, Eldrazi Titans, Iona, etc. being proxied, as long as one copy is owned. I think there's a threshold though; one Primeval Titan for 10 different decks seems excessive. One in 3 or 4 though, that's fine on my watch.
I think it's very hard to debate the use of proxies in the above situations. Proxying something when you have no intent to ever own the actual card is never acceptable in my view. I've ignored the resolution of a proxy Imperial Seal, and ignored the fetched card, because I know all too well that the player had no plans to ever buy one. I do, however, go a bit further and allow a fully-proxied deck during playtesting, and I've done so in the past. However, if you decide that the deck isn't for you, I prefer it if its taken apart. If it *is* for you, then I'm fine with you playing the proxy pile for a few weeks as you work on de-proxying the deck.
2. When the cards are impossible to acquire. NOTE that this does NOT include cost. One of the guys in my playgroup will always turn up with a proxied deck, because he doesn't want to buy the cards. I let him play, but I'll Death by Dragons targetting him, if you know what I mean.
Basically, I have a proxy Ulamog in my EDH deck, because I haven't been able to find one locally or in trade for a very long time. I ask my playgroup to appreciate that I'm continually hunting for an Ulamog to replace it. They appreciate it, and noone pokes fun at my Ulamog. I have made an effort to print it out at high DPI in colour, so noone has trouble identifying it or reading it.
Once again - ebay is a thing. if you plan to get it, JUST BUY IT ONLINE. not being able to find a card IS NOT A THING.
I'm fine with proxies, but saying "using proxies for an extended period isn't cool, but it's cool if I proxy this card because I can't find it" then you're a hypocrite.
Once again - ebay is a thing. if you plan to get it, JUST BUY IT ONLINE. not being able to find a card IS NOT A THING.
I'm fine with proxies, but saying "using proxies for an extended period isn't cool, but it's cool if I proxy this card because I can't find it" then you're a hypocrite.
I've had Ulamog proxied for about a week. I'm waiting on my one-of that I ordered online. I'm still looking around for one. I'm pretty sure I'm aware of ebay >.>. Calling me a hypocrite is actually quite amusing, given you know almost nothing of the details of the situation. If you feel a need to be confrontational, there are better places than here.
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[box][box][size=3][b]CARDNAME[/b][/size] [float=right][mana]MANACOST[/mana][/float][/box]
[box][b]TYPE — SUBTYPE [float=right][color="RARITYCOLOUR"]{RARITY}[/color][/b][/float][/box][box]RULES TEXT
[i]FLAVOUR TEXT[/i][/box][float=right][box=50][b][SIZE="3"]P/T[/SIZE][/b][/box][/float][/box]
I've had Ulamog proxied for about a week. I'm waiting on my one-of that I ordered online. I'm still looking around for one. I'm pretty sure I'm aware of ebay
you said you haven't been able to find one locally or for trade in "a very long time". how is a week a very long time? shipping takes a week max.
at any rate, having a proxy because it's in the mail is an entirely different reason than "because you can't find it".
you said you haven't been able to find one locally or for trade in "a very long time". how is a week a very long time? shipping takes a week max.
at any rate, having a proxy because it's in the mail is an entirely different reason than "because you can't find it".
I proxied Ulamog because I had it on order. I've wanted one for a very long time. Using it as the example changes little, since it was the only related example I had. You're very quickly making posting in this thread very unenticing. Try not to jump to conclusions that include "OMFG THIS GUY IS LYING, QUICK GET HIM".
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[box][box][size=3][b]CARDNAME[/b][/size] [float=right][mana]MANACOST[/mana][/float][/box]
[box][b]TYPE — SUBTYPE [float=right][color="RARITYCOLOUR"]{RARITY}[/color][/b][/float][/box][box]RULES TEXT
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I proxied Ulamog because I had it on order. I've wanted one for a very long time. Using it as the example changes little, since it was the only related example I had. You're very quickly making posting in this thread very unenticing. Try not to jump to conclusions that include "OMFG THIS GUY IS LYING, QUICK GET HIM".
ok, fair enough, your original post was worded so that it sounded like you were saying that you proxied ulamog for an extended period of time because you weren't able to find one, but if that's not the case, then that's not the case. Regardless of whether it applies in this particular case, though, I still think the argument is silly.
Again, saying proxying isn't ok unless it's in the mail is one thing - I personally disagree with it, but it at least makes sense on some level. Saying it's not ok unless you can't find it is another, because it just doesn't make sense in the internet age. Regardless of your personal practices, the argument itself is faulty imo.
My question for those that approve proxies: How many proxies do you run across your decks?
Out of the dozen decks I own, almost all of them are 100% real, the rest (two or three decks I reckon) contain at most five proxies of cards I have incoming. Only exception is my 5-color Planeswalker EDH deck which contains exactly ten proxies, one of each dual land. I won't be getting them anytime soon obviously due to the cost, but in the meantime I made sure they were very well-made. So far no complaints from my friends
Just because I strive to play with authentic cards doesn't mean that I should stop my friends from proxying up some cards. I mean, I'm like most of the people who posted here - if I lose to an all-power deck with fake Moat/Mana Drain/Xiahou Dun etc, it's going to leave a sour taste in my mouth, but to each his own I guess.
Moral of the story: don't try to impose your ideals on others, and the world will be a better place
Moral of the story: don't try to impose your ideals on others, and the world will be a better place
For posterity.
Is card Proxying like religion?
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
I don't accept the argument that proxies lead to deck homogenization. Sure, it can, but it doesn't have to. Those using this argument are failing to identify their own problem. In those cases the real issue is their playgroup's lack of creativity. That's a fine problem (to some) to bring attention to, however because it need not follow from proxying, proxies are the wrong way to attack the issue. It would be like banning alcohol because people are killed by drunk drivers (wait, this isn't the debate forum??). Personally, I proxy mostly cards that are A) on the lower end of the price spectrum and B) far from being staples.
Also, it is logically necessary for everyone to hold one of two opinions:
A) Proxies are fine.
B) The player with more disposable income should rightly have an advantage.
If you hold opinion B, please explain why it is so necessary to turn EDH into a ***** measuring contest. This stance hurts the fun of every group whose players aren't all on exactly same footing. I want beat a kid forced to run bulk commons no more than I want to lose to the guy with a five figure deck.
Lastly, I understand that some people find the hunt for cards to be fun. Or searching your binder for a hilarious budget replacement fun. A community that prides themselves on creating situations where everyone is having fun should be better at realizing that these situations don't apply to everyone. What part of this format do I find fun? Deckbuilding. I spend hours on gatherer writing up my masterpiece of a decklist (be aware, this does NOT mean optimized). It's often months before I sleeve up the first card. Inevitably I'll be missing some. Replacing a card would destroy the entire experience and hunting the cards down is nothing more than a chore. While I have the lofty goal of owning every card for every deck I have at some point, I have no end date on that.
I will acknowledge that sitting in a shop playing with a proxy of a card for sale in the case is disrespectful.
I hold opinion B except for use of the term "should rightly," which I would replace with "will." I don't think there are any rights (or 'shoulds') at issue here, but there is definitely a way the world works. People with access to more and better resources have an advantage, and there is no such thing as equal footing. The reason I know that this "should" be the way it is is because it *is* the way it is. Reality is the only should in the universe--but I fear we may have devolved into a deeper philosophical discussion.
This is a clear answer.
If time is as limited and you say, it will be irritating to keep swapping cards.
But why do you feel the need to play a mana crypt in every deck?
I do not think I own 6 mana crypts.
If I did I might be as lazy as you and just play them in each deck I own.
While I do not play Crypt in every deck, I think it is 10 of them (and one of the two without plays a Null Rod). Yes, I am also a little lazy but it helps that I can justify it as being expedient. Still, I have put some effort into them. Pretty much all the proxies I use are printed foils.
In the end I have to agree that it does help deck building.
Make a new commander deck, fill it up with about 20 staples add a commander and 40 lands and you only have to concern yourself with the last 39 cards.
So now what you can also do, is just stock up on staples and land, and proxy the rest.
But why buy cards at all? You can proxy anything you want, so what is stopping you from doing so? Where do YOU draw the line? And why do you draw it, where you draw it?
I do make an effort towards creativity and I tend to avoid the most linear or 'solved' generals like Jhoira or Kaalia. Yes, I own and play a lot of staples but I very much enjoy finding deck ideas where the normal base of cards doesn't fit. This keeps things from getting too stale.
Overall, I still support the conditional use of proxies (i.e. duplication of owned cards and testing). To pull a post of mine from the last proxy thread, the hobby of MTG is, to me, made up of several games.
Acquiring cool cards is a game. Deckbuilding is a game. Playing magic is a game.
If you show up at the table with a proxied Moat that you have no intention of ever acquiring, it is a similar feeling to if you show up to a draft match with a deck you drafted in a different pod.
I do not like to proxy extensively if it's avoidable so, foggy as this line is, I avoid proxying cards that would not open up a different line of play for a deck. Having a Mana Crypt will let me tap out to draw 20+ cards off of Regal Force/Garruk, Primal Hunter and actually cast a spell afterward. Vesuva lets me double up on a Mosswort Bridge or trigger a Bojuka Bog in a non-black deck. I'll proxy cards like that if I do not have a sufficient quantity. Mana Drain, which I only own two of, does not, to my mind, do this. It'll accelerate a line of play, but it is really just a Counterspell. So my mono-blue deck just plays Counterspell and two of my other decks get Mana Drain. I've never proxied a dual land and I've no intention of making proxies of my Mishra's Workshop. I would have no problem proxying an additional Moat, but I only have the one deck that wants it anyway.
Proxies do not necessarily lead to homogenization. But I do think that proxies might enable more homogenization of decks. This is not a problem of proxies, but of players. But I do think tthat proxies make it more easy.
Why is having more resources unfair? I might see it if you didn't earn the resources (like maybe a trust fund kid or something), but the Yankees have spent decades building a successful organization/business. I have spent several decades investing money wisely/having good jobs/whatever. What's the unfair part about that?
Sheldon, you oughta know as well as anyone that the way one person views the game can be radically different than the way another person views the game.
A lot of us find it distasteful when person X gains an edge in a fundamentally abstract game due to real-world advantages. Strictly in terms of gameplay, that's like saying that you get to start with three queens in chess because you can afford to buy extra queen pieces.
Magic isn't a hobby like RC racecars, where spending more on a finer product is directly tied to the physics of reality; it's a mental game. If someone Mana Drains my spell, it doesn't matter if their really good Counterspell is in Italian or English. I'm willing to take the next logical step -- in terms of the game, it doesn't matter if it's an actual Mana Drain printed by Carta Mundi or a printout shoved over a Forest in a sleeve.
That's not to say I don't appreciate collectibility -- I certainly do (and my collection of foreign, foil, alternate-art, altered and signed cards reflects that). It's just that I've placed a wall between how shiny my collection is -- where money really does have an impact -- and between my gameplay, where I feel that experience, curiosity and critical thinking ought to rule the day.
I agree with Mewens on this one. It's a collectible card game, yes. The individual cards with which you make your deck cost money, in the real world. But one of the best things about Magic, is that it's a mathmatical game. There is a reason that so many pros play both poker and Magic; it's abstract during play.
I see it akin to the gay marriage debate (not to open a can of worms here, but it's a good analogy) wherein one side argues that proxies aren't part of the traditional game, and that those who cannot afford them should do without, while those who support proxying maintain that we have every right to play with the cards we would like to. It does not devalue your deck when I make mine more interesting by proxying a card that I did not previously have access to.
And to those who say that proxying staples makes the game less enjoyable; we are not all obligated to live up to your individual standards of fun. Perhaps I would enjoy having the consistency of a Top in every deck, while I only own one. Who are you to say "I wouldn't want to do that, you're better off challenging yourself."? It's very much patronizing.
Once I find a card that is more powerfull than another card that fullfills roughly the same function in my deck, I want to replace the less powerfull card with the more powerfull one. And if I have to wait a couple of months to save up for that card, I do that.
That's the issue; proxying removes the "several months" barrier from the opportunity cost of trying out new cards. I personally see nothing wrong with that. It might lead to power level creep in your playgroup, but that can be dealth with outside the game via personal banlists and the like.
A lot of us find it distasteful when person X gains an edge in a fundamentally abstract game due to real-world advantages. Strictly in terms of gameplay, that's like saying that you get to start with three queens in chess because you can afford to buy extra queen pieces.
It might leave a sour taste in people's mouths, but that's just how trading card games work. Some cards are more expensive, and they are usually better, and so the people who can afford 4x Jace TMS in their decks have the advantage.
Just like with this analogy of baseball - richer teams can afford better players. That's how the leagues are designed. That's how Magic is designed. Chess is designed to be fair in that no player has a real advantage based on their outside life. But for magic, it's never really a "fair game" unless both players have access to ALL cards available for the format, and unfortunately some people don't.
I wouldn't mind if the player that can't afford good cards proxies some, but that's just me.
It might leave a sour taste in people's mouths, but that's just how trading card games work.
To be fair, it's not how Magic, the game, is designed -- it's how the business as a whole is designed. (That, obviously, encapsulates the game.) I don't begrudge Wizards its requirement for real cards in tournies; the company has to make a buck, after all!
I was just trying to state a theory of gameplay that a) embraces proxies and b) isn't about min-maxing, powergaming, self-entitlement, etc. -- you know, all the typical things people who accept proxies of are accused of.
Agreed completely.
Sure, I could take the time to locate my Mirari's Wake in my Rafiq deck, re-sleeve it to put it into my Rhys deck, etc, but why bother when doing so slows down the next game even a little bit?
I picked up a Magus of the Coffers on ebay recently, and as soon as it arrives, it will be going into my Geth deck. And I'm considering picking up the Archenemy set that includes Coffers, if I can find one.
Across all of my decks? 1000+
It seems like many of the anti-proxy arguments here are anti-high-power-edh arguments. I have powerful proxy decks and weak proxy decks, don't get why you think proxies automatically means broken powerful cards.
What do you mean "the people"? You really think everyone will act the same way?
Like I said, I proxy expensive cards and worthless cards and build good and bad decks with them. edh is a casual format, I try to make decks that I'll have fun with regardless of price or power level.
Proxies completely remove the wallet issue like you mentioned. The price of cards isn't as good at regulating the game as just having fun is.
I did that. The deck has lots of good cards for Geth.
Unfortunately it's really really hard to find now...
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
It is my opinion that that limitation is a good thing. I'd rather lose to someone because they have a bigger bank account than I do than because they printed out more cards than I did. YMMV.
I feel that it is. A big part of the "fun" of Magic for me is the allure of really rare, really expensive, really difficult-to-track-down cards. If Wizards was to reprint every card as a common tomorrow, yeah, it'd be cool that we could all play with every card we ever dreamed of playing with, but you might as well be playing with pieces of cereal boxes that you drew a picture on. The rarity and costliness of certain cards is a big part of what makes this game intriguing, imho.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Now it is clear. And calling in reaching and then not explaining how it is doesn't help. Can we abandon the one land drop a turn rule since it is casual? No? Why not? It isn't like this is competitive.
I am not reaching. I am picking a rule and doing the same as the pro proxy player. Ignoring it and claiming that we aren't playing competitive so that is the justification that it is ok. Just my idea seems ridiculous and would be considered cheating to you. Hmmmm, that seems odd. It is just being ridiculous and reaching if I decide to disregard a rule because it is a casual format, but when you do it all of a sudden it is ok and should be done and no one should have any complaints over it. Seems a little dishonest to me.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
OK, I know I'm sort of belaboring this point, but with the internet around, NO CARD IS RARE. If I wanted an imperial seal I could buy that sucker for...wow, really, $750? that's crazy. But anyway, if I really wanted to, I could buy just about any card short of Shichifukujin Dragon and have it within a week.
Some cards are expensive, but realistically nothing is truly hard to acquire if you have the funds. I remember when I pretty much only had what I could trade my friends for, and that was fun, but if you're any kind of serious about the game, you have to acknowledge that, in terms of the difficulty of acquiring cards, money is the only factor.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
1. When the cards in question haven't been released yet. I've had Avacyn, Sigarda, Gisela and Triumph of Ferocity in my Mayael deck for at least 2 weeks. I plan to pick them all up when I make it to the LGS thisafternoon, and I replaced my Triumph with one I picked up whilst judging prereleases.
2. When the cards are impossible to acquire. NOTE that this does NOT include cost. One of the guys in my playgroup will always turn up with a proxied deck, because he doesn't want to buy the cards. I let him play, but I'll Death by Dragons targetting him, if you know what I mean.
Basically, I have a proxy Ulamog in my EDH deck, because I haven't been able to find one locally or in trade for a very long time. I ask my playgroup to appreciate that I'm continually hunting for an Ulamog to replace it. They appreciate it, and noone pokes fun at my Ulamog. I have made an effort to print it out at high DPI in colour, so noone has trouble identifying it or reading it.
3. When the card in question is an expensive card/is very hard to acquire and is owned, but in another deck, or the card in question is incredibly valuable and is being played in a hard case. I have a friend who has full playsets of Alpha (Beta for Volcanic Island) duals, each one signed by Richard Garfield and the card's artist. We think they're worth more than $500 each, so we let him proxy the cards, leaving the originals in the display frame. Basically, I'm fine with P-Titty, Eldrazi Titans, Iona, etc. being proxied, as long as one copy is owned. I think there's a threshold though; one Primeval Titan for 10 different decks seems excessive. One in 3 or 4 though, that's fine on my watch.
I think it's very hard to debate the use of proxies in the above situations. Proxying something when you have no intent to ever own the actual card is never acceptable in my view. I've ignored the resolution of a proxy Imperial Seal, and ignored the fetched card, because I know all too well that the player had no plans to ever buy one. I do, however, go a bit further and allow a fully-proxied deck during playtesting, and I've done so in the past. However, if you decide that the deck isn't for you, I prefer it if its taken apart. If it *is* for you, then I'm fine with you playing the proxy pile for a few weeks as you work on de-proxying the deck.
Level 1 Judge
Once again - ebay is a thing. if you plan to get it, JUST BUY IT ONLINE. not being able to find a card IS NOT A THING.
I'm fine with proxies, but saying "using proxies for an extended period isn't cool, but it's cool if I proxy this card because I can't find it" then you're a hypocrite.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I've had Ulamog proxied for about a week. I'm waiting on my one-of that I ordered online. I'm still looking around for one. I'm pretty sure I'm aware of ebay >.>. Calling me a hypocrite is actually quite amusing, given you know almost nothing of the details of the situation. If you feel a need to be confrontational, there are better places than here.
Level 1 Judge
you said you haven't been able to find one locally or for trade in "a very long time". how is a week a very long time? shipping takes a week max.
at any rate, having a proxy because it's in the mail is an entirely different reason than "because you can't find it".
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I proxied Ulamog because I had it on order. I've wanted one for a very long time. Using it as the example changes little, since it was the only related example I had. You're very quickly making posting in this thread very unenticing. Try not to jump to conclusions that include "OMFG THIS GUY IS LYING, QUICK GET HIM".
Level 1 Judge
ok, fair enough, your original post was worded so that it sounded like you were saying that you proxied ulamog for an extended period of time because you weren't able to find one, but if that's not the case, then that's not the case. Regardless of whether it applies in this particular case, though, I still think the argument is silly.
Again, saying proxying isn't ok unless it's in the mail is one thing - I personally disagree with it, but it at least makes sense on some level. Saying it's not ok unless you can't find it is another, because it just doesn't make sense in the internet age. Regardless of your personal practices, the argument itself is faulty imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Out of the dozen decks I own, almost all of them are 100% real, the rest (two or three decks I reckon) contain at most five proxies of cards I have incoming. Only exception is my 5-color Planeswalker EDH deck which contains exactly ten proxies, one of each dual land. I won't be getting them anytime soon obviously due to the cost, but in the meantime I made sure they were very well-made. So far no complaints from my friends
Just because I strive to play with authentic cards doesn't mean that I should stop my friends from proxying up some cards. I mean, I'm like most of the people who posted here - if I lose to an all-power deck with fake Moat/Mana Drain/Xiahou Dun etc, it's going to leave a sour taste in my mouth, but to each his own I guess.
Moral of the story: don't try to impose your ideals on others, and the world will be a better place
For posterity.
Is card Proxying like religion?
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Also, it is logically necessary for everyone to hold one of two opinions:
A) Proxies are fine.
B) The player with more disposable income should rightly have an advantage.
If you hold opinion B, please explain why it is so necessary to turn EDH into a ***** measuring contest. This stance hurts the fun of every group whose players aren't all on exactly same footing. I want beat a kid forced to run bulk commons no more than I want to lose to the guy with a five figure deck.
Lastly, I understand that some people find the hunt for cards to be fun. Or searching your binder for a hilarious budget replacement fun. A community that prides themselves on creating situations where everyone is having fun should be better at realizing that these situations don't apply to everyone. What part of this format do I find fun? Deckbuilding. I spend hours on gatherer writing up my masterpiece of a decklist (be aware, this does NOT mean optimized). It's often months before I sleeve up the first card. Inevitably I'll be missing some. Replacing a card would destroy the entire experience and hunting the cards down is nothing more than a chore. While I have the lofty goal of owning every card for every deck I have at some point, I have no end date on that.
I will acknowledge that sitting in a shop playing with a proxy of a card for sale in the case is disrespectful.
While I do not play Crypt in every deck, I think it is 10 of them (and one of the two without plays a Null Rod). Yes, I am also a little lazy but it helps that I can justify it as being expedient. Still, I have put some effort into them. Pretty much all the proxies I use are printed foils.
I do make an effort towards creativity and I tend to avoid the most linear or 'solved' generals like Jhoira or Kaalia. Yes, I own and play a lot of staples but I very much enjoy finding deck ideas where the normal base of cards doesn't fit. This keeps things from getting too stale.
Overall, I still support the conditional use of proxies (i.e. duplication of owned cards and testing). To pull a post of mine from the last proxy thread, the hobby of MTG is, to me, made up of several games.
Acquiring cool cards is a game. Deckbuilding is a game. Playing magic is a game.
If you show up at the table with a proxied Moat that you have no intention of ever acquiring, it is a similar feeling to if you show up to a draft match with a deck you drafted in a different pod.
I do not like to proxy extensively if it's avoidable so, foggy as this line is, I avoid proxying cards that would not open up a different line of play for a deck. Having a Mana Crypt will let me tap out to draw 20+ cards off of Regal Force/Garruk, Primal Hunter and actually cast a spell afterward. Vesuva lets me double up on a Mosswort Bridge or trigger a Bojuka Bog in a non-black deck. I'll proxy cards like that if I do not have a sufficient quantity. Mana Drain, which I only own two of, does not, to my mind, do this. It'll accelerate a line of play, but it is really just a Counterspell. So my mono-blue deck just plays Counterspell and two of my other decks get Mana Drain. I've never proxied a dual land and I've no intention of making proxies of my Mishra's Workshop. I would have no problem proxying an additional Moat, but I only have the one deck that wants it anyway.
This seems accurate.
A lot of us find it distasteful when person X gains an edge in a fundamentally abstract game due to real-world advantages. Strictly in terms of gameplay, that's like saying that you get to start with three queens in chess because you can afford to buy extra queen pieces.
Magic isn't a hobby like RC racecars, where spending more on a finer product is directly tied to the physics of reality; it's a mental game. If someone Mana Drains my spell, it doesn't matter if their really good Counterspell is in Italian or English. I'm willing to take the next logical step -- in terms of the game, it doesn't matter if it's an actual Mana Drain printed by Carta Mundi or a printout shoved over a Forest in a sleeve.
That's not to say I don't appreciate collectibility -- I certainly do (and my collection of foreign, foil, alternate-art, altered and signed cards reflects that). It's just that I've placed a wall between how shiny my collection is -- where money really does have an impact -- and between my gameplay, where I feel that experience, curiosity and critical thinking ought to rule the day.
I see it akin to the gay marriage debate (not to open a can of worms here, but it's a good analogy) wherein one side argues that proxies aren't part of the traditional game, and that those who cannot afford them should do without, while those who support proxying maintain that we have every right to play with the cards we would like to. It does not devalue your deck when I make mine more interesting by proxying a card that I did not previously have access to.
And to those who say that proxying staples makes the game less enjoyable; we are not all obligated to live up to your individual standards of fun. Perhaps I would enjoy having the consistency of a Top in every deck, while I only own one. Who are you to say "I wouldn't want to do that, you're better off challenging yourself."? It's very much patronizing.
That's the issue; proxying removes the "several months" barrier from the opportunity cost of trying out new cards. I personally see nothing wrong with that. It might lead to power level creep in your playgroup, but that can be dealth with outside the game via personal banlists and the like.
It might leave a sour taste in people's mouths, but that's just how trading card games work. Some cards are more expensive, and they are usually better, and so the people who can afford 4x Jace TMS in their decks have the advantage.
Just like with this analogy of baseball - richer teams can afford better players. That's how the leagues are designed. That's how Magic is designed. Chess is designed to be fair in that no player has a real advantage based on their outside life. But for magic, it's never really a "fair game" unless both players have access to ALL cards available for the format, and unfortunately some people don't.
I wouldn't mind if the player that can't afford good cards proxies some, but that's just me.
To be fair, it's not how Magic, the game, is designed -- it's how the business as a whole is designed. (That, obviously, encapsulates the game.) I don't begrudge Wizards its requirement for real cards in tournies; the company has to make a buck, after all!
I was just trying to state a theory of gameplay that a) embraces proxies and b) isn't about min-maxing, powergaming, self-entitlement, etc. -- you know, all the typical things people who accept proxies of are accused of.