i'm ok with proxies of reasonable stuff being used by other people because i can understand that some cards are hard to access without being worth much due to a lack of the card in a particular playgroup(burgeoning, due to its age and general un-use, for example). As long as the proxy is reasonable and relevant for the deck its fine
that being said i hate proxies in my decks. they are complete eye-sores in my opinion. when i have a nicely sleeved deck and great cards all the way through... and then come to an ugly paper proxy it just angers me beyond all rationality
wot? burgeoning is about the same price as sol ring, and they're both ramp. You might be drawing the line a bit thin, there.
And I would say cradle is absolutely crucial to the functionality of some sisay decks.
I've said this before: the internet is a thing. there is no excuse for being unable to get any card more common than blue hurricane except for the lack of money.
I've been playing Magic on and off for 15 years and playing EDH for about 3 months so feel free to take my opinion with however many grains of salt you need.
I don't see the problem with proxies. I use them and have no problem with the people I play with using them. Be it in the league I play in, just sitting around the cards shop playing, or sitting around the kitchen table testing.
I think if you're going to allow proxies for any reason you should allow them for all reasons. When you try to implement rules for whats OK and what isn't, it just seems like you are asking for drama. If your group doesn't like proxies the no proxies. Either buy a sol ring for each of your decks or get ready to do a bunch of re-sleaving. It's not that far of a walk from "it's in the mail" to " my friend is borrowing it for his deck" to " I know most of the guys here and if I asked them to borrow a card for the night they would lend it to me" to "I know the store owner...." All of a sudden you've gone from your collection to the collection of the store and everyone in it.
The store I play at has a 10 proxy house rule. It's exactly what it sounds like. You get 10 proxies. Whatever you want for whatever reason you want. Need 2 dual lands? You've got 8 spots left. You own card X but but don't own card Y and want to give it a try? You've got 7 left. I really like this rule because it lets the newer players keep up with those who have been playing for a while and it lets veterans experiment with new cards. If it weren't for this rule I would not be an EDH player.
Just because it's casual doesn't mean it's not competitive.
just went back through this again and realized sheldon aka the sheldon menery posted early in this thread saying since it's a casual format playing a suboptimal card is fine so don't use proxies without good reason.
1. it's cool he's on here.
2. he talks about not having enough copies of a card for the next deck he wants to make all the time in his articles. and dude's probably got a SIGNIFICANT edh card pool. that supports his argument in my mind.
3. he said a good reason is if you (paraphrasing) "didn't have time to switch the real one from another deck." I actually disagree an assumption in this point.
I understand his point is that with proxies homogeneity can be a problem so saying herp derp i own one dual now alllll my decks have it is annoying. but his implication is that if you do have time you should pull out the real one from the other deck instead of using a proxy. I assume his rationale is that if people don't get to be lazy like this they'll just use another card instead, leading to more creative deckbuilding.
I personally don't think my laziness (desire not to unsleeve a card and resleeve in the right color for this deck instead of using a proxy) is not the strongest factor in encouraging interesting deck building. It's my desire to kick bootay with an objectively suboptimal card.
Lastly, in light of the above considerations it's important to remember what we're discussing. As far as a hypothetical normative, I agree that proxies are undesirable. In practice, I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't use a proxy out of some desire to push them to adhere to my own self-imposed restrictions. That's ridiculous. If a guy wants to be a jerk and play a deck that's 50% sharpie proxies, I will groan and walk away maybe. But more likely the player will announce a few proxies ahead of time and if people object just pull out another "pure" deck. Most playgroups are pretty good about regulating excessive proxy use by just not playing with that person as much.
So in terms of the health of the format, I think the debate has merit, and legs, especially when framed in terms like mr. menery's points. But in terms of how to have a good edh group or whatever, just don't be unpleasant and you'll be helping.
can I get a WORD!
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Even with access to only one of a nice expensive card (like Mana Crypt), I'd rather not proxy it in other decks even though it should be there. It gives my decks some variety. Heck, a few of my decks don't even have Sol Rings because I only have so many. I'd probably run Time Spiral in just about every blue deck I have too (which is the majority of them lol), because I like that card so much, but I only have one.
I gotta ask though if it really feels different and exciting when you play that mana crypt? Most cards people would proxy for those reasons are fairly unexciting cards anyways
EDIt:
Just want address a couple of Nammtars points:
The one about the card being in another deck- Certain cards are a huge pain to acquire and to get more copies of a card than I can ever legally play in a deck is fairly wasteful. I'll give you an example of my own. I have 4 copies of maze of ith from the dark from my legacy days. The card is very hard to find and expensive. I did my legwork to get my copies of it and a 5th for my 5th EDH deck only is really unnecessary same goes for wasteland
The Im getting the card soon argument - Building a new deck is exciting and it seems perfectly understandable to want to play it as soon as possible rather than waiting on a handful of difficult to find and difficult to replace cards in order to play the deck
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
I do not doubt that certain cards are really hard to come by.
But what is keeping you from temporarily borrowing these cards from the decks you normally play them in? I usually have plenty of time to prepare before I play. Enough time to do some tweaking or swap some cards.
If you play all of your decks with the same sleaves, you do not even have to de-sleave you cards. This way you can easilly hot-swap the cards you need. You just need to remember to put them back afterwards.
Now concerning the card will be arriving soon.
I have a Kaalia deck, and I am really looking forward to some Avacyn Restored cards to tweak my decks with. Unfortunately they do not ship yet. So what do I do? For the time being I either play another deck or play the not yet updated version of my deck. Next time I see my friends again, I will have a new version ready. I tweak my decks all the time. Every month when I get my paycheck I have a small list that I want to buy in order to tweak my decks. If I play before I get a chance to buy these cards, I still do not proxy them. I wait till they have arrived and in the meanwhile I will just play another deck that I did not got to play last time for the cards to be added had not yet arrived.
If I had only one commander deck, I would still not proxy. I would play the deck untweaked and keep an eye out for the card I want to swap out. Each time I play the old card, I would think if the new card would be better. That way, when the new card finally does arrive, I know when and how to play it so I can best surprise my opponents when I play with them again.
Swapping cards from deck to deck creates the possibility of them getting damaged. I also run all my decks in different color sleeves that way I dont mix them up and dont need to count 100 cards before I play so changing sleeves around with expensive old cards is really not something I am going to do very often. If IVe made the effort to get the maximum number of copies I could ever play in a single deck that should be enough.
As for the second point that seems like largely your choice and I would not want to stop someone from playing a deck they are really excited about because a few cards have not been found yet. Making substitutions and replacements based on not having the card right away feels very unsatisfying and disappointing.
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
As for the second point that seems like largely your choice and I would not want to stop someone from playing a deck they are really excited about because a few cards have not been found yet. Making substitutions and replacements based on not having the card right away feels very unsatisfying and disappointing.
Just this.
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But what is keeping you from temporarily borrowing these cards from the decks you normally play them in? I usually have plenty of time to prepare before I play. Enough time to do some tweaking or swap some cards.
We're more expedient than that so no, not worth it. Taking the time to swap cards around when I have perfectly legible proxies is purely to the detriment of the people you're playing with.
We're more expedient than that so no, not worth it. Taking the time to swap cards around when I have perfectly legible proxies is purely to the detriment of the people you're playing with.
This is what kind of had me adopt that philosophy. Not only do you need to possibly resleeve them and move them from this deck to that, but you have recount your deck, then remember where you put that card last, or at the end of the game move them back to the main deck. All while everyone is drawing their 7 and staring at you. The proxy accomplishes the same thing without the aggravation and time consumption.
This is what kind of had me adopt that philosophy. Not only do you need to possibly resleeve them and move them from this deck to that, but you have recount your deck, then remember where you put that card last, or at the end of the game move them back to the main deck. All while everyone is drawing their 7 and staring at you. The proxy accomplishes the same thing without the aggravation and time consumption.
Ding ding!
I run my duals in 2 decks, but I hate moving them around all the time.
Sue me...
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Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
To those saying there are no rules for proxies in non-sanctioned formats: All of the rules in place are for sanctioned formats, at least the ones I know. I guess we can play as many lands as we want now too huh? Awesome.
To those saying there are no rules for proxies in non-sanctioned formats: All of the rules in place are for sanctioned formats, at least the ones I know. I guess we can play as many lands as we want now too huh? Awesome.
When couldn't we play as many lands as we wanted?
I get your point though.
But understand that every play group has house rules. Happens in other games too. Monopoly anyone?!
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To those saying there are no rules for proxies in non-sanctioned formats: All of the rules in place are for sanctioned formats, at least the ones I know. I guess we can play as many lands as we want now too huh? Awesome.
You have the weirdest arguments, what are you even trying to say? You CAN play as many lands as you want, as long as its between 0-99. This is an unsanctioned format and guess what? It DOES have rules, like the commander color identity rule, the 99 card +1 general rule, the 40 life rule, the 21 commander damage rule....... Unfortunately there are no rules in place on proxies or we wouldn't need to have this discussion.
Why do you think that swapping cards is purely to the detriment of the people you're playing with?
When I play with friends we usually come to an agreement to play a couple of days earlier. This would give me plenty of time to swap cards.
And even of the day it self I have much time. Say my friends will be coming @ 15:00 hrs on a saturday. Even if I sleep late I can still swap, or I can do it friday evening. And then Sunday afternoon I have enough time to swap them back. Sometimes it happens that you get killed early in a game. This would also give you time to swap. At these times, you are not bothering anyone. No one has to wait for you. So why would you see this as negative?
Every day that the shop is open, there is EDH going on. Every weekend and sometimes during the week I'll show up there and get some games in. It is not uncommon for everyone to be alive until the last 1-2 turns of the game. After that, I'll probably roll a d12 to see what deck I'll play next and immediately start shuffling up for the next game. Sadly, for those 12 decks I only own 6 Mana Crypts, 4 Vesuvas, and 2 Diamond Valleys.
My cards are awesome and my opponents are sometimes poor, I would prefer to defeat them with skill rather than blugeoning them to death with my wallet. I mean its cute watching guys laying down 21 cent angel flyers with Kaalia cause they own bugger all cards its just not very effective when I drop Consecrated Sphinx next turn.
BUGBEAR#
The idea that it is acceptable to proxy a copy of a card you already own but not acceptable to proxy one you don't is insanity unless the card in question has been put through the washing machine or something.
I'd rather there not be proxies for your exact opposite reason- I'm tired of lists that are nothing but a giant conglomeration of staples. I like those situations that come up when you drop a card and someone has to reach over and ask "What does that card do?" Sure, there are some choices that may have to be made just to keep your deck up to a reasonable power-level so that you can interact with the game, but price and availability are a good force for helping to establish more diversity into decklists.
If people aren't going to do it themselves, it's good to have something like demand and availabilty to have it forced upon them.
I've generally found that people who play proxies (good ones printed off from MagicCards.info) to be smarter, possess more ingenuity, more socially integratable outside the realm of magic, and about a million other positive qualities. Everyone else I've met who doesn't like or hate's the use of proxies outside the realm of magic I've found to be socially akward and generally people who want to suck you down to their own level of misery. Not trying to troll here, just some life experience.
I stay away from those who try to limit others. And they can stay heck away from me.
This made me stop and think a bit, because I would fall into the latter category, being as I am one "who doesn't like... the use of proxies."
To me, Magic as a trading card game in general, and EDH in particular as a "casual," eternal format, is about playing the cards you own. Some of these cards are very rare, extraordinarily expensive, difficult to locate, etc. Most of us will never be able to acquire them. Now, while that sucks on the one hand, on the other hand it is precisely the thing that makes them so cool, so desirable, and so awesome on the rare occasions we see them. A full set of NM ABU duals in a 5cc Scion of the Ur Dragon deck? Awesome! A full set of proxied ABU duals in the same deck? Why? I can't afford said full set, so I won't build that deck. I build decks that I can afford, and look forward to the day that I can potentially build those others that are currently out of my reach. When everything is easily accessible, nothing is "sacred," as it were.
So, I'll never put proxies in my decks, and I prefer that others that I play with don't play them for the same reason. I'd certainly never comment about it if someone in my playgroup did use them (and they have/do), but it's my personal preference that they be left out of the game.
I don't like proxies when:
you sleeve up a deck with Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor and such to play... and we all know you aren't ever going to pay the money for those cards
You make some net deck and then throw in 77 proxies instead of coming up with your own ideas
Other than that, I generally don't have an issue with you breaking out those 77 proxies if you got a wild hair and decided to make a new deck the night before and want to make sure it is something you want to play and need to see card interactions before you drop coin on it. I'd just like to see you trying to build the deck up and make the number of proxies drop. I understand sometimes deck building isn't a 1 stop shop and it may take a few weeks to make that deck a reality.
Have the card in 1 deck and want to use it in a second? Proxy away. If you use the same sol ring for 22 decks, it gets a bit old. If you use 3 copies in 6 decks, no biggie.
All in all, I'm going to play with you no matter what, just be ready to get eyes rolled at you if you drop a moat proxy for a month straight. I'll probably rag on you the entire game too. lol
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Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
I've generally found that people who play proxies (good ones printed off from MagicCards.info) to be smarter, possess more ingenuity, more socially integratable outside the realm of magic, and about a million other positive qualities. Everyone else I've met who doesn't like or hate's the use of proxies outside the realm of magic I've found to be socially akward and generally people who want to suck you down to their own level of misery. Not trying to troll here, just some life experience.
I stay away from those who try to limit others. And they can stay heck away from me.
This has been 100% my experience as well. Great way of phrasing it too.
No need to judge or force beliefs on others, just play the game, let everyone play, and have fun
You have the weirdest arguments, what are you even trying to say? You CAN play as many lands as you want, as long as its between 0-99. This is an unsanctioned format and guess what? It DOES have rules, like the commander color identity rule, the 99 card +1 general rule, the 40 life rule, the 21 commander damage rule....... Unfortunately there are no rules in place on proxies or we wouldn't need to have this discussion.
You interpreted that wrong? You know that rule of playing one land a turn. Yeah, i guess we can ditch that rule. Was that not clear from the context of the post? The other guy got it just fine.
Not clear at all Mr.Windows, you didnt say anything about one per turn did you? Nowhere in the context of your post was that implied, just another one of your reaching "arguments" but im gonna stop feeding you now.
@Raguel- I play 0 proxies in my decks because i am fortunate enough to have a vast card collection but i encourage everyone i play with to not let your actual card pool determine the decks that you build. Edit: I actually play a collector's edition Demonic Tutor (square bb) in my Geth that i forgot about, just because i hate having to use white border cards if i can avoid it. (Aside from duals for ease of fetching) But i am curious too about how many proxies the supporters use?
My question for those that approve proxies: How many proxies do you run across your decks?
Slivers has 2 proxies (and yes, I'm working on grabbing the legit cards, just haven't found a price on par with what I think they are worth. both cards are $50 or less, nothing huge) and a CE Mana Vault. Yes the vault is technically a proxy, but I only run it because it cost me $1 and has Black Borders and as Ritual said, why run a WB when the CE isn't hurting anyone. The replacement is a $3 card. If anybody complaints, I'll stuff a $5 bill in there and keep playing. lol
Geth has 2
Mimeo has about 7, but 3 are duals (in slivers) and 1 is a demonic, which is in both Slivers and Geth.
Ghave has none because it's my POS just threw it together deck to play something new. It'll probably proxy a bayou, scrubland, and savannah from slivers one day if I get serious with it.
And yes, if I were to play in a tourney, I'd choose one deck and swap the cards I had to. But casually, I often switch decks multiple times in a session. it isn't worth the time.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
It bugs me when someone pens in a card text over a crappy common, but otherwise its quite fine.
I don't do it myself since I don't have a printer and it takes time and effort, but I was fairly impressed when some guy showed up to play with us and had %100 proxied cards, mainly because his container full of decks was remarkably lightweight.
In contrast, my luggage is quite heavy and a pain to haul around, but I get more trade opportunities and its easier for me to freely make decks while I'm at work.
My question for those that approve proxies: How many proxies do you run across your decks?
I currently have 6 active EDH decks and am working on a 7th. I think between my current and in-progress decks, I may run as many as 8 proxies total right now.
I have a fairly good-sized collection, but there are lots of good cards I only own one or two of, and rather than try to keep track of which deck what is in and transferring a few cards in and out of decks, I use proxies in some decks. So, for example, I only own two copies of Eternal Witness, but three of my current decks include green, so one of them has a proxy of the Witness.
I should note that I only use proxies of cards I actually own. The one copy of Mirari's Wake I own is currently in my U/G/W Rafiq deck, while the copy in my G/W Rhys the Redeemed deck is a proxy. This saves me the hassle of switching a card between the decks when I switch decks. However, I don't own a Cabal Coffers at all, so even though it would be a great addition to my mono-black Geth deck, I don't have a proxy of the Coffers in that deck, or any other deck using black... and I won't ever have one unless I eventually pick up a Cabal Coffers somewhere.
However, I don't own a Cabal Coffers at all, so even though it would be a great addition to my mono-black Geth deck, I don't have a proxy of the Coffers in that deck, or any other deck using black... and I won't ever have one unless I eventually pick up a Cabal Coffers somewhere.
Off Topic...
WHA?!?!?! No coffers in a Geth deck? Go buy that now. Then go get a Urborg, ToY. And please tell me you are playing a Magus of the Coffers at least.
There is no eventually... you need this land, it's what powers Geth. Huge mana stealing craziness!
Back on Topic:
So, if you run a playtest proxy, what is your clock for deciding and getting the replacment?
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wot? burgeoning is about the same price as sol ring, and they're both ramp. You might be drawing the line a bit thin, there.
And I would say cradle is absolutely crucial to the functionality of some sisay decks.
I've said this before: the internet is a thing. there is no excuse for being unable to get any card more common than blue hurricane except for the lack of money.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Ill give you two reasons to play Basalt over Mana Crypt:
1) Rings of Brighthearth
2) Power Artifact
Sorry but the combo player in me has to stick up for one of my favorite pieces! Carry on!
I don't see the problem with proxies. I use them and have no problem with the people I play with using them. Be it in the league I play in, just sitting around the cards shop playing, or sitting around the kitchen table testing.
I think if you're going to allow proxies for any reason you should allow them for all reasons. When you try to implement rules for whats OK and what isn't, it just seems like you are asking for drama. If your group doesn't like proxies the no proxies. Either buy a sol ring for each of your decks or get ready to do a bunch of re-sleaving. It's not that far of a walk from "it's in the mail" to " my friend is borrowing it for his deck" to " I know most of the guys here and if I asked them to borrow a card for the night they would lend it to me" to "I know the store owner...." All of a sudden you've gone from your collection to the collection of the store and everyone in it.
The store I play at has a 10 proxy house rule. It's exactly what it sounds like. You get 10 proxies. Whatever you want for whatever reason you want. Need 2 dual lands? You've got 8 spots left. You own card X but but don't own card Y and want to give it a try? You've got 7 left. I really like this rule because it lets the newer players keep up with those who have been playing for a while and it lets veterans experiment with new cards. If it weren't for this rule I would not be an EDH player.
Just because it's casual doesn't mean it's not competitive.
URG Riku shell with a Warp World center
1. it's cool he's on here.
2. he talks about not having enough copies of a card for the next deck he wants to make all the time in his articles. and dude's probably got a SIGNIFICANT edh card pool. that supports his argument in my mind.
3. he said a good reason is if you (paraphrasing) "didn't have time to switch the real one from another deck." I actually disagree an assumption in this point.
I understand his point is that with proxies homogeneity can be a problem so saying herp derp i own one dual now alllll my decks have it is annoying. but his implication is that if you do have time you should pull out the real one from the other deck instead of using a proxy. I assume his rationale is that if people don't get to be lazy like this they'll just use another card instead, leading to more creative deckbuilding.
I personally don't think my laziness (desire not to unsleeve a card and resleeve in the right color for this deck instead of using a proxy) is not the strongest factor in encouraging interesting deck building. It's my desire to kick bootay with an objectively suboptimal card.
Lastly, in light of the above considerations it's important to remember what we're discussing. As far as a hypothetical normative, I agree that proxies are undesirable. In practice, I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't use a proxy out of some desire to push them to adhere to my own self-imposed restrictions. That's ridiculous. If a guy wants to be a jerk and play a deck that's 50% sharpie proxies, I will groan and walk away maybe. But more likely the player will announce a few proxies ahead of time and if people object just pull out another "pure" deck. Most playgroups are pretty good about regulating excessive proxy use by just not playing with that person as much.
So in terms of the health of the format, I think the debate has merit, and legs, especially when framed in terms like mr. menery's points. But in terms of how to have a good edh group or whatever, just don't be unpleasant and you'll be helping.
can I get a WORD!
Check out my weekly EDH column on General Damage Control, "Three Cards Deep," every Friday evening.
@MdaveCS on Twitter
I gotta ask though if it really feels different and exciting when you play that mana crypt? Most cards people would proxy for those reasons are fairly unexciting cards anyways
EDIt:
Just want address a couple of Nammtars points:
The one about the card being in another deck- Certain cards are a huge pain to acquire and to get more copies of a card than I can ever legally play in a deck is fairly wasteful. I'll give you an example of my own. I have 4 copies of maze of ith from the dark from my legacy days. The card is very hard to find and expensive. I did my legwork to get my copies of it and a 5th for my 5th EDH deck only is really unnecessary same goes for wasteland
The Im getting the card soon argument - Building a new deck is exciting and it seems perfectly understandable to want to play it as soon as possible rather than waiting on a handful of difficult to find and difficult to replace cards in order to play the deck
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Swapping cards from deck to deck creates the possibility of them getting damaged. I also run all my decks in different color sleeves that way I dont mix them up and dont need to count 100 cards before I play so changing sleeves around with expensive old cards is really not something I am going to do very often. If IVe made the effort to get the maximum number of copies I could ever play in a single deck that should be enough.
As for the second point that seems like largely your choice and I would not want to stop someone from playing a deck they are really excited about because a few cards have not been found yet. Making substitutions and replacements based on not having the card right away feels very unsatisfying and disappointing.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Just this.
Check out my weekly EDH column on General Damage Control, "Three Cards Deep," every Friday evening.
@MdaveCS on Twitter
We're more expedient than that so no, not worth it. Taking the time to swap cards around when I have perfectly legible proxies is purely to the detriment of the people you're playing with.
This is what kind of had me adopt that philosophy. Not only do you need to possibly resleeve them and move them from this deck to that, but you have recount your deck, then remember where you put that card last, or at the end of the game move them back to the main deck. All while everyone is drawing their 7 and staring at you. The proxy accomplishes the same thing without the aggravation and time consumption.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Ding ding!
I run my duals in 2 decks, but I hate moving them around all the time.
Sue me...
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
When couldn't we play as many lands as we wanted?
I get your point though.
But understand that every play group has house rules. Happens in other games too. Monopoly anyone?!
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
You have the weirdest arguments, what are you even trying to say? You CAN play as many lands as you want, as long as its between 0-99. This is an unsanctioned format and guess what? It DOES have rules, like the commander color identity rule, the 99 card +1 general rule, the 40 life rule, the 21 commander damage rule....... Unfortunately there are no rules in place on proxies or we wouldn't need to have this discussion.
Every day that the shop is open, there is EDH going on. Every weekend and sometimes during the week I'll show up there and get some games in. It is not uncommon for everyone to be alive until the last 1-2 turns of the game. After that, I'll probably roll a d12 to see what deck I'll play next and immediately start shuffling up for the next game. Sadly, for those 12 decks I only own 6 Mana Crypts, 4 Vesuvas, and 2 Diamond Valleys.
I'd rather there not be proxies for your exact opposite reason- I'm tired of lists that are nothing but a giant conglomeration of staples. I like those situations that come up when you drop a card and someone has to reach over and ask "What does that card do?" Sure, there are some choices that may have to be made just to keep your deck up to a reasonable power-level so that you can interact with the game, but price and availability are a good force for helping to establish more diversity into decklists.
If people aren't going to do it themselves, it's good to have something like demand and availabilty to have it forced upon them.
This made me stop and think a bit, because I would fall into the latter category, being as I am one "who doesn't like... the use of proxies."
To me, Magic as a trading card game in general, and EDH in particular as a "casual," eternal format, is about playing the cards you own. Some of these cards are very rare, extraordinarily expensive, difficult to locate, etc. Most of us will never be able to acquire them. Now, while that sucks on the one hand, on the other hand it is precisely the thing that makes them so cool, so desirable, and so awesome on the rare occasions we see them. A full set of NM ABU duals in a 5cc Scion of the Ur Dragon deck? Awesome! A full set of proxied ABU duals in the same deck? Why? I can't afford said full set, so I won't build that deck. I build decks that I can afford, and look forward to the day that I can potentially build those others that are currently out of my reach. When everything is easily accessible, nothing is "sacred," as it were.
So, I'll never put proxies in my decks, and I prefer that others that I play with don't play them for the same reason. I'd certainly never comment about it if someone in my playgroup did use them (and they have/do), but it's my personal preference that they be left out of the game.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
you sleeve up a deck with Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor and such to play... and we all know you aren't ever going to pay the money for those cards
You make some net deck and then throw in 77 proxies instead of coming up with your own ideas
Other than that, I generally don't have an issue with you breaking out those 77 proxies if you got a wild hair and decided to make a new deck the night before and want to make sure it is something you want to play and need to see card interactions before you drop coin on it. I'd just like to see you trying to build the deck up and make the number of proxies drop. I understand sometimes deck building isn't a 1 stop shop and it may take a few weeks to make that deck a reality.
Have the card in 1 deck and want to use it in a second? Proxy away. If you use the same sol ring for 22 decks, it gets a bit old. If you use 3 copies in 6 decks, no biggie.
All in all, I'm going to play with you no matter what, just be ready to get eyes rolled at you if you drop a moat proxy for a month straight. I'll probably rag on you the entire game too. lol
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
This has been 100% my experience as well. Great way of phrasing it too.
No need to judge or force beliefs on others, just play the game, let everyone play, and have fun
Building silly decks for silly games.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
@Raguel- I play 0 proxies in my decks because i am fortunate enough to have a vast card collection but i encourage everyone i play with to not let your actual card pool determine the decks that you build. Edit: I actually play a collector's edition Demonic Tutor (square bb) in my Geth that i forgot about, just because i hate having to use white border cards if i can avoid it. (Aside from duals for ease of fetching) But i am curious too about how many proxies the supporters use?
Slivers has 2 proxies (and yes, I'm working on grabbing the legit cards, just haven't found a price on par with what I think they are worth. both cards are $50 or less, nothing huge) and a CE Mana Vault. Yes the vault is technically a proxy, but I only run it because it cost me $1 and has Black Borders and as Ritual said, why run a WB when the CE isn't hurting anyone. The replacement is a $3 card. If anybody complaints, I'll stuff a $5 bill in there and keep playing. lol
Geth has 2
Mimeo has about 7, but 3 are duals (in slivers) and 1 is a demonic, which is in both Slivers and Geth.
Ghave has none because it's my POS just threw it together deck to play something new. It'll probably proxy a bayou, scrubland, and savannah from slivers one day if I get serious with it.
And yes, if I were to play in a tourney, I'd choose one deck and swap the cards I had to. But casually, I often switch decks multiple times in a session. it isn't worth the time.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
I don't do it myself since I don't have a printer and it takes time and effort, but I was fairly impressed when some guy showed up to play with us and had %100 proxied cards, mainly because his container full of decks was remarkably lightweight.
In contrast, my luggage is quite heavy and a pain to haul around, but I get more trade opportunities and its easier for me to freely make decks while I'm at work.
I currently have 6 active EDH decks and am working on a 7th. I think between my current and in-progress decks, I may run as many as 8 proxies total right now.
I have a fairly good-sized collection, but there are lots of good cards I only own one or two of, and rather than try to keep track of which deck what is in and transferring a few cards in and out of decks, I use proxies in some decks. So, for example, I only own two copies of Eternal Witness, but three of my current decks include green, so one of them has a proxy of the Witness.
I should note that I only use proxies of cards I actually own. The one copy of Mirari's Wake I own is currently in my U/G/W Rafiq deck, while the copy in my G/W Rhys the Redeemed deck is a proxy. This saves me the hassle of switching a card between the decks when I switch decks. However, I don't own a Cabal Coffers at all, so even though it would be a great addition to my mono-black Geth deck, I don't have a proxy of the Coffers in that deck, or any other deck using black... and I won't ever have one unless I eventually pick up a Cabal Coffers somewhere.
Off Topic...
WHA?!?!?! No coffers in a Geth deck? Go buy that now. Then go get a Urborg, ToY. And please tell me you are playing a Magus of the Coffers at least.
There is no eventually... you need this land, it's what powers Geth. Huge mana stealing craziness!
Back on Topic:
So, if you run a playtest proxy, what is your clock for deciding and getting the replacment?
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB