I've generally found that people who play proxies (good ones printed off from MagicCards.info) to be smarter, possess more ingenuity, more socially integratable outside the realm of magic, and about a million other positive qualities. Everyone else I've met who doesn't like or hate's the use of proxies outside the realm of magic I've found to be socially akward and generally people who want to suck you down to their own level of misery. Not trying to troll here, just some life experience.
I stay away from those who try to limit others. And they can stay heck away from me.
I've generally found that people who play proxies (good ones printed off from MagicCards.info) to be smarter, possess more ingenuity, more socially integratable outside the realm of magic, and about a million other positive qualities. Everyone else I've met who doesn't like or hate's the use of proxies outside the realm of magic I've found to be socially akward and generally people who want to suck you down to their own level of misery. Not trying to troll here, just some life experience.
I stay away from those who try to limit others. And they can stay heck away from me.
I proxy plenty of cards, using art from the internet and photoshop templates. It's fun, I can get my hands on expensive or hard to find cards, and I see no problem with it. Neither does my playgroup, although I would ask before entering a new one. As long as they are legible, I wouldn't have a problem with opponents proxying either. The way I see it, having to spend a few hundred dollars on a few pieces of cardboard makes the game less fun for those who don't have that kind of income.
I've seen entire decks altered. Same concept for a fraction of the cost + not being married to the altered design.[/color]
I think this is one of the styles of proxying I respect most. A friend and I constructed entire proxies decks, completely reskinned with new themes: I built an entire Vish Kal deck, renamed, new art, etc with Ayame Kojima Castlevania artwork. My friend's is a Rubinia Soulsinger deck re-cast as a Lindsay Lohan "mean girls" deck. Both endeavors were extremely time consuming, but I believe both are very well done, so neither of us have any reservations about busting them out in mixed player company. Neither have been optimized into the combo monsters they could be, assuming everyone who proxies is unethical in their practices.
I've been intending to make a mighty boosh, hitcher-themed B/G deck for a while now, but frankly the effort necessary to capture shots, use photoshop of mtgse, etc is a lot more effort than simply constructing and buying a new deck. The perfectionist streak for making convincing and/or authentic-looking cards I think is often a greater impediment than simply buying the cards!
I once used forests as proxies for mountains in a mono red deck (saint pattrik's day.) Other than that I personally don't use proxies, but I won't say anything if someone else does. As long as I can read it it's fine. The main reason I don't care if others proxy is that I just want to play a game, and proxies dont interfere with that. Arguing about it does though, so I try to avoid that.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
I have no problem with proxies. I prefer them to be properly printed and readable so I don't have to decipher someone's chicken scratchings over an old plains. Also prefer it if it isn't blatant which cards are proxy because they're 2x the thickness of all the other cards in the deck.
Some newer players just can't afford/find stuff that's just crucial to EDH being an interesting game. Things like original duals and old, interesting generals.
I tend to use proxies of cards I own but don't want to have out in the wild, or cards I don't own, but want to see if they work well before going to the effort of trading/buying.
EDH/commander is supposed to be fun and interesting. It's always cool when someone pops a card from the past, and it always gets newer players interested in it (the "oh man, that would go SO well in my XYZ deck" effect). It just seems unfair that they can't play that card because of value or availability.
I don't have a problem with proxies; especially if they are well-made, you're just testing, or you own the card in another deck.
But at the same time, we've got a gentlemen's agreement that you should proxy as little as possible, and using a proxy such as Mishra's Workshop to bring your Arcum deck to the next level is frowned upon, and we will punch you in the kidney.
So far it's worked well.
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
I do have a problem with proxies when they are made by scrawling with a sharpie on a basic land or back of a card. EDH can create complex board positions, and if its difficult to tell what half the cards are on the table, then it becomes quite frustrating to deal with. Sometimes its hard enough to keep track of things without also have to keep track of what ten badly made proxies are supposed to be representing. I am a visual person and proxies have caused me to misplay before where I assumed someone had no blue mana up for a counter and it turns out that untapped basic swamp actually had underground sea scrawled on it, etc.
That being said I don't mind if someone has a clearly made proxy that contains the full rules text to fill in for a card they actually own. This does save time in having to swap cards between decks. I personally don't use proxies, but I understand the plight of the compulsive deck builder.
I do have a problem with people that use proxies to fill in for cards they do not own and have no intention of owning. I understand not everyone has the expendable funds to put into a game like Magic, but there are other fun card games out there that do not have a collectible aspect, such as Dominion, etc. These types of games may be a better fit. Also if someone is new to the game or format, in my experience there is usually someone with a spare deck willing to lend it for a game or two.
I have an Animar deck that Imperial Recruiter would fit quite nicely into. However I'm simply not going to spend the $250+ to acquire a copy. The card pool for commander is large enough that I have plenty of other options to run in place of the recruiter without reducing the effectiveness or fun of the deck. What is MaRo's saying? Restriction breeds creativity?
Even with access to only one of a nice expensive card (like Mana Crypt), I'd rather not proxy it in other decks even though it should be there. It gives my decks some variety. Heck, a few of my decks don't even have Sol Rings because I only have so many. I'd probably run Time Spiral in just about every blue deck I have too (which is the majority of them lol), because I like that card so much, but I only have one.
My playgroup is fairly casual, composed of a few veteran players returning to Magic after taking a long time off, several FNM regulars playing competitive decks, and a few rookies just learning the game. Most of us have spent quite a bit of money on Magic over the years.
We have a "loose" $250 proxy rule in effect. There is no limit on deck cost, provided you own the real cards. Any deck, however, can only use up to $250 in proxy cards.
While I own many high priced cards, I have just given myself a $250 dollar per deck limit--whether the cards are real or proxied. I love deck building, and I find that this added constraint actually requires I be more inventive and selective in my card choices.
Making quality proxies can be a pain in the butt--so I will often buy the cheaper cards I end up copying, but I am past the point where I see myself spending $50 on a Sword of Pwnage.
"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
Even with access to only one of a nice expensive card (like Mana Crypt), I'd rather not proxy it in other decks even though it should be there. It gives my decks some variety. Heck, a few of my decks don't even have Sol Rings because I only have so many. I'd probably run Time Spiral in just about every blue deck I have too (which is the majority of them lol), because I like that card so much, but I only have one.
This is my approach also, sure I own Duals, Mana Crypt etc but those are in my 60 card decks, so for EDH I just used whatever I had left Karoos, Pain Lands etc... But I really have no problem with proxies as long as they are made well.
My problem with proxies has always been the fact that it limits my imagination when it comes to deck building. Sure, I could just proxy all 5 swords, mana crypt, sol ring, etc. into every deck I build, but then all of my decks are going to be the same cards for each color.
That being said, I'm not going to sit there and tear someone a new one because they want to use proxies in their own deck. I really don't care as long as I still get to play the game - that's the whole reason I'm there in the first place.
My two cents: This is a casual format. If you don't have the card, then you don't have to play with it. Now I get that we all don't have original duals or Force of Will or whatever, but I have some pretty mean decks without those kinds of cards. I also have decks with my sole copy of Gaea's Cradle or whathaveyou, and that just means that my other decks get to use a Forest.
If you're planning on buying or are waiting for a deliver for a cheapish rare like, say, Burgeoning, then you can proxy till you get it, but you better get that proxy out of there in a week or two.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
NB: My comments here only apply to casual formats and friendly environments.
I've used proxies in casual formats and I would encourage new and newer players to use them as well. I would not encourage anyone to use them for long, however. All of us can enjoy the sensation of encouraging a new player to work up decks into what they want them to be. The difficulty is that new players don't have enough experience to know what cards are worth getting, or how to achieve the effects they want to achieve.
Proxies help. A proxy Black Lotus teaches a new player quite a bit about the game. It also teaches a new player something about why someone might have to pay $1,200 in order to be able to play with one. As we work our way down the cost ladder, it can be hard to explain to a new player why one card is worth $30 and another $130. Having them proxy up Hallowed Fountains and Tundras is a great way for them to see the differences without having to invest the money.
Then, when the new player finally ponies up money for an expensive card, s/he will have a much better sense of how the card will fit into an existing deck, or a desired deck. The new player doesn't get burned by buying an expensive card that is really only good in one deck--s/he will end up steering her/himself toward more useful cards in general. Then, once completely hooked on the game, s/he can buy expensive and narrow cards instead.
Of course, my argument relies on a kind of ethos in a play group in which players choose to own the cards they play. This would allow a kind of moral suasion to be used. A player could proxy an expensive card and simply declare "I proxied this so I'd know whether or not I would like to own it." In a sense, proxies would be a kind of "borrowed" card. Just as we expect someone to eventually return a borrowed card, we'd expect them to stop using a proxied card.
I'm certainly more happy to support the attitude "I'm acquiring the card, it's just proxied while it's on the way/until I get my paycheck/when I find one" than "screw the secondary market, I'm not paying for cards."
The way I tend to do it is if I have the card in another deck (tournament one) then commander can take a proxy for it. Especially some cards that are 30+ dollars. Like, Im not getting another Argothian enchantress to put it in my EDH deck because I have it in my legacy deck.
Also, if I run multiple copies of one card, I will proxy it in a deck. A perfect example, Soul Ring. I only have one, and it is an EDH staple, and I dont feel like I should have to go out and buy a new soul ring for each of my EDH decks, I will put a pallidum myr in instead and everyone knows that it represents my soul ring.
Proxies are an amazing resource. A quality printed proxie takes nothing away from a game. End of story. This nonsense about proxies limiting creativity is nonsense.
If proxies are allowed, why ever buy a card/booster pack? I think that part of the experience of the format is finding alternatives to high-cost cards (like playing the affordable Strip Mine instead of the insane Wasteland).
While I get this argument, there are two issues, first Strip Mine is infinitely more useful then Wasteland, but I still get what you were saying. The second issue is that some cards do not have alternatives. For instance my Bant Blink deck runs the Rishadan Cutpurse / Rishadan Footpad and Rishadan Brigand. There are cards that there are no real alternatives for. At least that I have ever seen scouring magicccards.info
I also think going into a game shop and using proxies is a violation of part of the contract between store owner and client. Running a game store is already a low-return investment. If you want to have a good place to play, you have to support it, and buying packs and singles is part of the arrangement. Players sometimes treat the game shop like's it's a university-funded Student Union, and it's simply not. The players themselves have some responsibility.
I agree with this. I think proxies are fine if you are attempting to acquire the cards, however as players we should always attempt to support our local establishments to help them stay in business.
If I sit down to a casual game and someone says they have a card proxied for a good reason (didn't have the time to pull it out of a deck before they showed up, or the card store guy is currently too busy with other stuff to grab it, for example), I'm okay with it, but I wouldn't want it to be an ongoing thing.
I kind of agree with this. I think if a player is running an expensive card in one deck, they should be able to proxy it in others. I wouldn't expect each player at the meetup I co-host to get a Savannah for each of their 6 decks. I think as players we should help support our stores, but as responsible adults we should respect that our fellow players may not want to spend $600 on 1 land per deck. My interest in players actually playing is greater then my interest in local stores making money. Especially in the case where that new deck just wouldn't even have been made in the first place, if they were required to buy new sets of their Rev Duals for each deck.
On top of things, what if you want to explore the format and you want to test cards to put into your EDH deck. The worst feeling in the world is when you spent $10 on a card ($10 may not be a lot of money for some of us, it but it is for the majority of the people) just because you don't want to proxy and it winds up being cut because it doesn't work out.
Tell me about it. I went this route for a while and ended up with a Mana Drain that was kind of a waste, a Chains of Mephistopheles that was used in 1 game and has since been sitting in a binder, and an Invoke Prejudice that was played very shortly. Proxies to try things out is perfectly fine by me, especially as the cost of some cards continues to increase. I rather players be happy and playing then anything else.
I'm kind of interested to see where everybody lies with this issue (which I kind of sort of think relates). The usage of gold border or collectors edition cards in edh decks?
I have no problem with them, especially since they can carry a high cost. I think they are half the actual cards retail value normally, right? Anyway its a Wizards product, and you supported Wizards by purchasing it. I also think this is a great alternative to scribbling on a card. I make my own alters for my "proxies" but wouldn't mind someone with CE cards, especially the old non-gold bordered ones with the square edges.
I'm certainly more happy to support the attitude "I'm acquiring the card, it's just proxied while it's on the way/until I get my paycheck/when I find one" than "screw the secondary market, I'm not paying for cards."
Agree largely with this sentiment. I don't want people proxying an entire deck. I think that is out of line and people should be willing to support Wizards and their local stores.
I'm addicted to some chemical that wizards puts into the cards during the foiling process, so I only like to play foil cards. In my eyes, if I'm not playing a foil card, it may as well be a proxy.
Since foils are expensive, I will usually proxy up an entire deck (including basic lands, if I don't have enough foil of that type), and then just slowly buy the cards as I am convinced of the utility of that card. There are a couple of people in my playgroup that appreciate foils, so it's fun to go in every week and get comments on the new pieces of bling I've added to my deck.
I also really like this philosophy, because it makes my decks a lot different from most. Since I only play with foil cards, I don't even bother proxying cards that were not originally printed in foil (I don't do promos), or are prohibitively expensive (top, solemn simulacrum, etc. etc.).
EDIT: I just finished foiling out my first deck, and I'm super proud of it! The second one is on the way.
And i don't care what other people think. Sure some moron will say OMG !!! it's a proxy and then I simply respond well are you going to give me one for free to put into my deck? And then they shut up.
Oh wow. People around you seem to not know how to provide a good retort.
Proper response:
"Things in life are not free. I will not give you things for free. I will trade you cards that I have for trade that you need if you have something I want. I have built my deck with real cards. Your arrogance that you have is inexcusable. You think you deserve to play with proxies because it is casual. All hobbies are casual. Doesn't mean you don't put money and effort into them. Normally I would grimace and mention that it is a proxy in a derogatory tone but due to your arrogance I will ignore the effect of your card since you have ignored the true nature of a trading card game. I would also like to point out that should doesn't always equal reality. Should in the way pro proxy players are using it, is a matter of opinion. You don't put forth enough effort to play the game. Not everyone that plays the game with expensive cards has a huge wallet. A lot of people work hard to save up for the cards. Myself included. You cheapen what I do by cheating. Since the rules of the game state that only magic the gathering cards can be played in this game I will play with those rules now just for you. I am not that strict on proxies as you may think. What I am strict on is arrogance. I don't care if someone really friendly comes up and nicely asks and is fun to play with uses proxies. It is the people who proxy and think that they automatically have the right because it is a casual format where nothing matters that bothers me. That is fine. Want to play by those rules? I can make up a whole list of rules that break the rules and use the fact that it is casual and it shouldn't matter, that you are making too much of a deal out of something for a casual format.
-takes in deep breath-
Sorry just your statement struck me as rather rude and I felt I should state something on the matter. I will admit I used to be rather stringent on the no proxy rule. Now I have laxed a tiny bit. I do still grimace at the site of a proxy, even the "nicely done ones". I think it really does come down to shades of gray for me. Call it arbitrary. This arbitrary way of doing things results in better games for me and the people I play with. People who talk the way you claim to do, you are not the positive atmosphere that I want when playing the game.
@Defenestrate Windows- Do you have a personal crusade against proxies? Its cool you feel so passionately about the topic but on every page is a post from you trying to persuade people to think the same as you. Its kinda funny but its getting old seeing you write the same things over and over again. We get it, people can't always have everything they want but you know what? They can with proxies and many of us are content to play against them, if it means playing a stronger deck. It nice you have an all-foil deck and are super proud of the fact you bought all the cards but i could care less if im playing against an all japanese foil deck or an all proxy deck, as long as the games are competitve and fun.
I don't have a problem with proxies; especially if they are well-made, you're just testing, or you own the card in another deck.
But at the same time, we've got a gentlemen's agreement that you should proxy as little as possible, and using a proxy such as Mishra's Workshop to bring your Arcum deck to the next level is frowned upon, and we will punch you in the kidney.
So far it's worked well.
This a million times over.
And this post wins for making me laugh.
More things in Magic should result in kidney punches.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
@Defenestrate Windows- Do you have a personal crusade against proxies? Its cool you feel so passionately about the topic but on every page is a post from you trying to persuade people to think the same as you. Its kinda funny but its getting old seeing you write the same things over and over again. We get it, people can't always have everything they want but you know what? They can with proxies and many of us are content to play against them, if it means playing a stronger deck. It nice you have an all-foil deck and are super proud of the fact you bought all the cards but i could care less if im playing against an all japanese foil deck or an all proxy deck, as long as the games are competitve and fun.
I mainly have a thing against people thinking that they are entitled to everything in the world. Mainly the type of people that say people who don't allow proxies are just unpleasant people because they don't let me do anything I want. I just find it immature. And to clarify i do have exceptions to using proxies. As stated if it is in the mail(Though I will not use it for that reason I don't fault people for doing it) or if you own one and it is in another deck and you have lots of decks that you share with the community. That is my stance on it. If you abuse that first one I mentioned(i.e. you don't have it for weeks and weeks and it is always the same excuse) then I tend to not be swayed. I also don't like the notion that you have to be rich to own cards. If you claim that you aren't rich enough why are you here playing magic when your family could use your income at a job. Yes this game comes down to having fun. I think everyone should have fun. I just fail to see how you using a proxy hinges on your ability to have fun. Unless of course you are just so stubborn that you need to have your way or you will complain about how everyone else is not letting you have fun when we are really just setting rules in place. If you say some rules are not needed, who makes you judge and jury on cases like that?
1. sweet proxies are sweet. just the idea that for a few bucks I could build a fully fetched/dualed out mana base is exciting. but it appeals to the ICANHAZMOARPOWERZZZ player in me. That is not the only aspect of my mtg personality.
And it lets the players who spend hours scouring gatherer to find the perfect card try it out before they hunt it down in real life. That makes sense.
2. many (esp deviant art) proxies have ridiculous art and they do make the game more enjoyable and interesting from an aesthetic perspective. beautiful cards are beautiful. that's real.
3. on the other hand, the real deal (like actually having the necro, dual, whatever) creates its own warm satisfying feeling. and when you do save up to finally put a real underground sea in mimeoplasm, that investment can feel cheapened when another player slams down a sleeve with underground sea written on the back of a card using sharpie. I understand a visceral reaction against that.
4. One of the rad benefits of EDH is that you can spend a day digging through all your old crap cards and find gems that play well in the format. Building decks within the restriction of your card pool is the only way to fully have that experience. There's no reason to track down an old basalt monolith if you can proxy a mana crypt. Not everyone cares about this experience, but being open to it by minimizing proxy use is a good way to initially approach understanding the spirit of the format.
these are just arguments for and against. in practice it seems like most people are roughly in agreement that proxies, in moderation, for a specific reason like "I can't afford it cuz its $50, I already have one in another deck, I'm just trying it out," etc. That's certainly been the majority of what i've experienced across multiple playgroups. As with a lot of things about edh, the spirit in which you do thing x (proxy, include combo pieces, etc) matters a lot for most players.
and for those who hate proxies completely, I'm with you in spirit too. I wish I had a fully foiled out fbb all crimped etc deck. except I'd probably always have to show up with a spare pair of pants for when I pulled that deck out :D:D:D:D
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-Dave Schreiner
Check out my weekly EDH column on General Damage Control, "Three Cards Deep," every Friday evening.
i'm ok with proxies of reasonable stuff being used by other people because i can understand that some cards are hard to access without being worth much due to a lack of the card in a particular playgroup(burgeoning, due to its age and general un-use, for example). As long as the proxy is reasonable and relevant for the deck its fine
that being said i hate proxies in my decks. they are complete eye-sores in my opinion. when i have a nicely sleeved deck and great cards all the way through... and then come to an ugly paper proxy it just angers me beyond all rationality
I stay away from those who try to limit others. And they can stay heck away from me.
You're my hero.
The Commandments of EDH
I think this is one of the styles of proxying I respect most. A friend and I constructed entire proxies decks, completely reskinned with new themes: I built an entire Vish Kal deck, renamed, new art, etc with Ayame Kojima Castlevania artwork. My friend's is a Rubinia Soulsinger deck re-cast as a Lindsay Lohan "mean girls" deck. Both endeavors were extremely time consuming, but I believe both are very well done, so neither of us have any reservations about busting them out in mixed player company. Neither have been optimized into the combo monsters they could be, assuming everyone who proxies is unethical in their practices.
I've been intending to make a mighty boosh, hitcher-themed B/G deck for a while now, but frankly the effort necessary to capture shots, use photoshop of mtgse, etc is a lot more effort than simply constructing and buying a new deck. The perfectionist streak for making convincing and/or authentic-looking cards I think is often a greater impediment than simply buying the cards!
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Some newer players just can't afford/find stuff that's just crucial to EDH being an interesting game. Things like original duals and old, interesting generals.
I tend to use proxies of cards I own but don't want to have out in the wild, or cards I don't own, but want to see if they work well before going to the effort of trading/buying.
EDH/commander is supposed to be fun and interesting. It's always cool when someone pops a card from the past, and it always gets newer players interested in it (the "oh man, that would go SO well in my XYZ deck" effect). It just seems unfair that they can't play that card because of value or availability.
But at the same time, we've got a gentlemen's agreement that you should proxy as little as possible, and using a proxy such as Mishra's Workshop to bring your Arcum deck to the next level is frowned upon, and we will punch you in the kidney.
So far it's worked well.
That being said I don't mind if someone has a clearly made proxy that contains the full rules text to fill in for a card they actually own. This does save time in having to swap cards between decks. I personally don't use proxies, but I understand the plight of the compulsive deck builder.
I do have a problem with people that use proxies to fill in for cards they do not own and have no intention of owning. I understand not everyone has the expendable funds to put into a game like Magic, but there are other fun card games out there that do not have a collectible aspect, such as Dominion, etc. These types of games may be a better fit. Also if someone is new to the game or format, in my experience there is usually someone with a spare deck willing to lend it for a game or two.
I have an Animar deck that Imperial Recruiter would fit quite nicely into. However I'm simply not going to spend the $250+ to acquire a copy. The card pool for commander is large enough that I have plenty of other options to run in place of the recruiter without reducing the effectiveness or fun of the deck. What is MaRo's saying? Restriction breeds creativity?
twitter.com/bccarlso
We have a "loose" $250 proxy rule in effect. There is no limit on deck cost, provided you own the real cards. Any deck, however, can only use up to $250 in proxy cards.
While I own many high priced cards, I have just given myself a $250 dollar per deck limit--whether the cards are real or proxied. I love deck building, and I find that this added constraint actually requires I be more inventive and selective in my card choices.
Making quality proxies can be a pain in the butt--so I will often buy the cheaper cards I end up copying, but I am past the point where I see myself spending $50 on a Sword of Pwnage.
WG Gaddock Teeg and the Reveillark Experience [M][c]
U Azami Draws You Crazy [M][$]
WBVish Kal, the Patient [M]
WRGUBScion of the Double Dragon [M]$
WGBTeneb, the Home Wrecker [M]$
"For me metaphysics means something more like realism. That there is a reality that escapes any of its manifestations. You can never be quite sure what it is, but you can offer some description of what the structures of reality are." Graham Harman, The Prince and the Wolf
This is my approach also, sure I own Duals, Mana Crypt etc but those are in my 60 card decks, so for EDH I just used whatever I had left Karoos, Pain Lands etc... But I really have no problem with proxies as long as they are made well.
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
That being said, I'm not going to sit there and tear someone a new one because they want to use proxies in their own deck. I really don't care as long as I still get to play the game - that's the whole reason I'm there in the first place.
If you're planning on buying or are waiting for a deliver for a cheapish rare like, say, Burgeoning, then you can proxy till you get it, but you better get that proxy out of there in a week or two.
Commanders:
Basandra, Battle Seraph | Diaochan, Artful Beauty | Mayael the Anima | Nath of the Gilt Leaf | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Raksha Golden Cub | Rayne, Academy Chancellor | Roon of the Hidden Realm
I've used proxies in casual formats and I would encourage new and newer players to use them as well. I would not encourage anyone to use them for long, however. All of us can enjoy the sensation of encouraging a new player to work up decks into what they want them to be. The difficulty is that new players don't have enough experience to know what cards are worth getting, or how to achieve the effects they want to achieve.
Proxies help. A proxy Black Lotus teaches a new player quite a bit about the game. It also teaches a new player something about why someone might have to pay $1,200 in order to be able to play with one. As we work our way down the cost ladder, it can be hard to explain to a new player why one card is worth $30 and another $130. Having them proxy up Hallowed Fountains and Tundras is a great way for them to see the differences without having to invest the money.
Then, when the new player finally ponies up money for an expensive card, s/he will have a much better sense of how the card will fit into an existing deck, or a desired deck. The new player doesn't get burned by buying an expensive card that is really only good in one deck--s/he will end up steering her/himself toward more useful cards in general. Then, once completely hooked on the game, s/he can buy expensive and narrow cards instead.
Of course, my argument relies on a kind of ethos in a play group in which players choose to own the cards they play. This would allow a kind of moral suasion to be used. A player could proxy an expensive card and simply declare "I proxied this so I'd know whether or not I would like to own it." In a sense, proxies would be a kind of "borrowed" card. Just as we expect someone to eventually return a borrowed card, we'd expect them to stop using a proxied card.
Just my two cents, your mileage may vary, etc.
Also, if I run multiple copies of one card, I will proxy it in a deck. A perfect example, Soul Ring. I only have one, and it is an EDH staple, and I dont feel like I should have to go out and buy a new soul ring for each of my EDH decks, I will put a pallidum myr in instead and everyone knows that it represents my soul ring.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=406388
While I get this argument, there are two issues, first Strip Mine is infinitely more useful then Wasteland, but I still get what you were saying. The second issue is that some cards do not have alternatives. For instance my Bant Blink deck runs the Rishadan Cutpurse / Rishadan Footpad and Rishadan Brigand. There are cards that there are no real alternatives for. At least that I have ever seen scouring magicccards.info
I agree with this. I think proxies are fine if you are attempting to acquire the cards, however as players we should always attempt to support our local establishments to help them stay in business.
I kind of agree with this. I think if a player is running an expensive card in one deck, they should be able to proxy it in others. I wouldn't expect each player at the meetup I co-host to get a Savannah for each of their 6 decks. I think as players we should help support our stores, but as responsible adults we should respect that our fellow players may not want to spend $600 on 1 land per deck. My interest in players actually playing is greater then my interest in local stores making money. Especially in the case where that new deck just wouldn't even have been made in the first place, if they were required to buy new sets of their Rev Duals for each deck.
Tell me about it. I went this route for a while and ended up with a Mana Drain that was kind of a waste, a Chains of Mephistopheles that was used in 1 game and has since been sitting in a binder, and an Invoke Prejudice that was played very shortly. Proxies to try things out is perfectly fine by me, especially as the cost of some cards continues to increase. I rather players be happy and playing then anything else.
I have no problem with them, especially since they can carry a high cost. I think they are half the actual cards retail value normally, right? Anyway its a Wizards product, and you supported Wizards by purchasing it. I also think this is a great alternative to scribbling on a card. I make my own alters for my "proxies" but wouldn't mind someone with CE cards, especially the old non-gold bordered ones with the square edges.
Agree largely with this sentiment. I don't want people proxying an entire deck. I think that is out of line and people should be willing to support Wizards and their local stores.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Since foils are expensive, I will usually proxy up an entire deck (including basic lands, if I don't have enough foil of that type), and then just slowly buy the cards as I am convinced of the utility of that card. There are a couple of people in my playgroup that appreciate foils, so it's fun to go in every week and get comments on the new pieces of bling I've added to my deck.
I also really like this philosophy, because it makes my decks a lot different from most. Since I only play with foil cards, I don't even bother proxying cards that were not originally printed in foil (I don't do promos), or are prohibitively expensive (top, solemn simulacrum, etc. etc.).
EDIT: I just finished foiling out my first deck, and I'm super proud of it! The second one is on the way.
Oh wow. People around you seem to not know how to provide a good retort.
Proper response:
"Things in life are not free. I will not give you things for free. I will trade you cards that I have for trade that you need if you have something I want. I have built my deck with real cards. Your arrogance that you have is inexcusable. You think you deserve to play with proxies because it is casual. All hobbies are casual. Doesn't mean you don't put money and effort into them. Normally I would grimace and mention that it is a proxy in a derogatory tone but due to your arrogance I will ignore the effect of your card since you have ignored the true nature of a trading card game. I would also like to point out that should doesn't always equal reality. Should in the way pro proxy players are using it, is a matter of opinion. You don't put forth enough effort to play the game. Not everyone that plays the game with expensive cards has a huge wallet. A lot of people work hard to save up for the cards. Myself included. You cheapen what I do by cheating. Since the rules of the game state that only magic the gathering cards can be played in this game I will play with those rules now just for you. I am not that strict on proxies as you may think. What I am strict on is arrogance. I don't care if someone really friendly comes up and nicely asks and is fun to play with uses proxies. It is the people who proxy and think that they automatically have the right because it is a casual format where nothing matters that bothers me. That is fine. Want to play by those rules? I can make up a whole list of rules that break the rules and use the fact that it is casual and it shouldn't matter, that you are making too much of a deal out of something for a casual format.
-takes in deep breath-
Sorry just your statement struck me as rather rude and I felt I should state something on the matter. I will admit I used to be rather stringent on the no proxy rule. Now I have laxed a tiny bit. I do still grimace at the site of a proxy, even the "nicely done ones". I think it really does come down to shades of gray for me. Call it arbitrary. This arbitrary way of doing things results in better games for me and the people I play with. People who talk the way you claim to do, you are not the positive atmosphere that I want when playing the game.
-end rant-
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
This a million times over.
And this post wins for making me laugh.
More things in Magic should result in kidney punches.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
I mainly have a thing against people thinking that they are entitled to everything in the world. Mainly the type of people that say people who don't allow proxies are just unpleasant people because they don't let me do anything I want. I just find it immature. And to clarify i do have exceptions to using proxies. As stated if it is in the mail(Though I will not use it for that reason I don't fault people for doing it) or if you own one and it is in another deck and you have lots of decks that you share with the community. That is my stance on it. If you abuse that first one I mentioned(i.e. you don't have it for weeks and weeks and it is always the same excuse) then I tend to not be swayed. I also don't like the notion that you have to be rich to own cards. If you claim that you aren't rich enough why are you here playing magic when your family could use your income at a job. Yes this game comes down to having fun. I think everyone should have fun. I just fail to see how you using a proxy hinges on your ability to have fun. Unless of course you are just so stubborn that you need to have your way or you will complain about how everyone else is not letting you have fun when we are really just setting rules in place. If you say some rules are not needed, who makes you judge and jury on cases like that?
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
Athreos, God of Passage
And it lets the players who spend hours scouring gatherer to find the perfect card try it out before they hunt it down in real life. That makes sense.
2. many (esp deviant art) proxies have ridiculous art and they do make the game more enjoyable and interesting from an aesthetic perspective. beautiful cards are beautiful. that's real.
3. on the other hand, the real deal (like actually having the necro, dual, whatever) creates its own warm satisfying feeling. and when you do save up to finally put a real underground sea in mimeoplasm, that investment can feel cheapened when another player slams down a sleeve with underground sea written on the back of a card using sharpie. I understand a visceral reaction against that.
4. One of the rad benefits of EDH is that you can spend a day digging through all your old crap cards and find gems that play well in the format. Building decks within the restriction of your card pool is the only way to fully have that experience. There's no reason to track down an old basalt monolith if you can proxy a mana crypt. Not everyone cares about this experience, but being open to it by minimizing proxy use is a good way to initially approach understanding the spirit of the format.
these are just arguments for and against. in practice it seems like most people are roughly in agreement that proxies, in moderation, for a specific reason like "I can't afford it cuz its $50, I already have one in another deck, I'm just trying it out," etc. That's certainly been the majority of what i've experienced across multiple playgroups. As with a lot of things about edh, the spirit in which you do thing x (proxy, include combo pieces, etc) matters a lot for most players.
and for those who hate proxies completely, I'm with you in spirit too. I wish I had a fully foiled out fbb all crimped etc deck. except I'd probably always have to show up with a spare pair of pants for when I pulled that deck out :D:D:D:D
Check out my weekly EDH column on General Damage Control, "Three Cards Deep," every Friday evening.
@MdaveCS on Twitter
when people proxy sol ring, sensei's divining top, force of will, gaea's cradle etc is where i have a problem. these cards are not necessary for the functionality of a deck, they are just money cards people want.
that being said i hate proxies in my decks. they are complete eye-sores in my opinion. when i have a nicely sleeved deck and great cards all the way through... and then come to an ugly paper proxy it just angers me beyond all rationality
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!