I hope it feels so good to be right. There is nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
On the internet no less.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BBe the broke or the breakerB
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation BOf your own master planB
I am outraged by the banning of Worldfire. Red is already very weak and they take out one of the few fun and powerful cards it has. Jhoira is the real reason behind the banning, and a Jhoira deck is going to be equally annoying anyway, she should have been banned as general eons ago.
I also join the group of people that are unhappy that Consecrated Sphinx, Time Stretch and Palinchron are allowed to roam freely.
I fetch two lands? DA BROKEN.
I untap seven lands ad infinitum and kill everyone at the table? Sure, no problem.
I play a symmetric effect and sent everyone to one life? OMG UNFUN
I resolve a big spell and no one ever gets another turn? No problem, that's what Commander is about.
Message is clear: midrange and big spells that let everyone a chance are bad for the health of commander, combo decks full of tutor and draw are the way to go.
It sounds to me like they banned your pet griefer card and now you think there is no validity in any of the RC's decisions.
Worldfire was never fun. It is along the same lines as Sway of the Stars, Biorhythm etc. Worldfire was banned because it makes the entire game pointless up to when Worldfire is cast. It's banning doesn't have a whole lot to do with Jhoira, but she doesn't help matters either.
Sphinx really should have gone along with Primeval Titan, but when you start getting to stuff like Time Stretch and Palinchron you start sliding down the slippery slope to a 100000 card ban list. Cards like that don't necessarily break the format or centralize games, but they do certainly suck. You can't have a perfect banlist with perfect consistency, but at the very least it has some guidelines to promote fun games. The RC have stated this for years now.
Funny thing is that I agree with both of the above.
First, you shouldn't have cards that nullify the effects of all interaction up to that point in the game. Not if you want to promote interaction. Worldfire is clearly that, so is Sway of the Stars, Upheaval, etc. Prime Time is less clearly that, but it's shocking the quantity of cards that were pointless in this format up until then and are now very good disruption. The format is better. So that's a pretty good indication that the banning was a good decision. There are probably lots of other cards that discourage interaction by giving so many resources to one player that interaction is pointless. Necropotence, Ad Nauseum, Conc Sphinx, maybe Palinchron, Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch as well. The format might be more fun if those were banned.
But second, you shouldn't ban cards just because there's a degenerate use for them. Worldfire has one use, and it's degenerate. Palinchron is a degenerate combo enabler, but it's also a dandy little 4/5 flying that's hard to kill, one that before the combat damage rules change was a scary defensive beast. Same thing with Mind Over Matter, Tooth and Nail, etc. People should be able to play these cards if they like them, and it should be and can be the community's responsibility to keep things fresh.
The problem is when one card becomes so pervasive and overused for degenerate purposes that its friendly purpose is totally overshadowed and obscure by comparison. For example, Hermit Druid. Its use as a Civic Wayfinder is there, though its kind of bad at it, but the potential to pull a Mortal Combat and other such wins are really what it's known for. Same thing with Protean Hulk, it's known most widely as an infinite combo on a stick, and so it's banned. Timmy is going to have to use Pattern of Rebirth or something else to give him the same effect.
So in sum, I think that the RC should be looking to aggressively ban two kinds of cards:
1) Cards whose only use nullifies all game interaction up to that point; and
2) Cards whose primary, notorious use nullifies all game interaction to that point, such that one one uses it any other way anymore
People are going to be upset when a card from category 2 is banned. But at least they can make the claim that they were being friendly with it, and on the anonymous internet, no one can contradict that. But no one should ever be upset that a card from category 1, like PrimeTime and Worldfire, is banned. No, it wasn't creative. You didn't find some niche, clever use for a card. That card was broken.
I fail to see how primetime is in catagory1 not 2. Primetime for 2 Forrest does not get rid of everything that happens before him. As far as the creative clever etc I fail to see what that has to do with a banlist. I also don't care about creativity in any way really. Creativity to me in magic just means synergistic with bad standalone cards. Spike decks don't all look similar becuase we bet deck each other they look similar becuase we will always play the list that we personally think is strongest. This is fun for us primetime us a high quality card but not broken. World fire is a greifer card but so is obliterate who cares. Wasting a slot in the banlist for a card almost no one uses ( ive never seen it cast i play alot of mtgo) seems silly.
It sounds to me like they banned your pet griefer card and now you think there is no validity in any of the RC's decisions.
I would be lying if I said that I didn't have griefer purposes with Worldfire. The point is that there are far worse griefer cards and decks in the format, yet a card from the weakest EDH color was the only card banned. I call bias on that.
Worldfire was never fun. It is along the same lines as Sway of the Stars, Biorhythm etc. Worldfire was banned because it makes the entire game pointless up to when Worldfire is cast. It's banning doesn't have a whole lot to do with Jhoira, but she doesn't help matters either.
There are unbanned cards that nullify any game state like Worldpurge, Warp World and Scrambleverse. Sure, Worldfire is easier to abuse but everyone share their opinion here, were there a lot of Worldfires in your meta, specifically in decks dedicated to exploit it (the ones full of tutors and ramp)? I was the only one playing it and it wasn't even the centerpiece of my deck. On the other hand...
Sphinx really should have gone along with Primeval Titan, but when you start getting to stuff like Time Stretch and Palinchron you start sliding down the slippery slope to a 100000 card ban list. Cards like that don't necessarily break the format or centralize games, but they do certainly suck. You can't have a perfect banlist with perfect consistency, but at the very least it has some guidelines to promote fun games. The RC have stated this for years now.
...I always see two or three decks with blue and the usual suspects Sphinx, Time Stretch, Palinchron sometimes and add Omniscience to that. There have already happen a bunch of games when one of those players mass draws into an Omniscience and the game is over from there. Barring Sphinx, all these cards are as little fun as Worldfire, if not less. There's no slippery slope at all in banning those cards since they are only the worst offenders. It's not like we plan to ban Time Warp or Rhystic Study after them.
I can dig the banning of both cards as long as similarly game warping cards from other colors get the same treatment (I would put Diabolic Revelation on the watch list). As it was, I think this bannings solve the minority of issues people often have with EDH games. Do you people think the annoying EDH experiences end with PT and Wfire banned?
. On the other hand.I always see two or three decks with blue and the usual suspects Sphinx, Time Stretch, Palinchron sometimes and add Omniscience to that. There have already happen a bunch of games when one of those players mass draws into an Omniscience and the game is over from there. Barring Sphinx, all these cards are as little fun as Worldfire, if not less. There's no slippery slope at all in banning those cards since they are only the worst offenders. It's not like we plan to ban Time Warp or Rhystic Study after them.
So your point is because people can use it in an unsocial way Palinchron should be banned like Worldfire? I am not against the banning of Pali, but that reason leaves quite a bit to be desired.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I fail to see how primetime is in catagory1 not 2. Primetime for 2 Forrest does not get rid of everything that happens before him. As far as the creative clever etc I fail to see what that has to do with a banlist. I also don't care about creativity in any way really. Creativity to me in magic just means synergistic with bad standalone cards. Spike decks don't all look similar becuase we bet deck each other they look similar becuase we will always play the list that we personally think is strongest. This is fun for us primetime us a high quality card but not broken. World fire is a greifer card but so is obliterate who cares. Wasting a slot in the banlist for a card almost no one uses ( ive never seen it cast i play alot of mtgo) seems silly.
Prime Time is Category 2 because, for example, let's say I'm disrupting the table really hard. I Pox, regrowth and Pox again. When you cast Wheel of Fortune, I counterspell it. Then I play Blood Moon against your 5 color deck. Through the discard, you hold onto your land because you know your average curve is 6, and you won't have any hope to do anything at all unless you can get to that land count. So turn 7 or 8 or 9, I'm attacking with my 3cc commander, then you topdeck Prime Time. Now, it doesn't matter that you're playing with an average CMC of 6, unless I answer PrimeTime or kill you fast, you're still able to cast everything your deck gives you, and as soon as you make a draw engine you're doing the same tired stuff like Genesis Wave for 15 that you'd be doing if I hadn't disrupted you at all.
Or someone Bribery's it out of your deck, or you Pattern of Rebirth for it, etc.
It's as if you're facing down a board of Momir Vig, Mystic Snake, Future Sight and Crystal Shard and someone tells you that all you need to do is cast Wrath of God to stop the bleeding from the Rampaging Baloths. The game structure is one where players draw one card and play one land per turn. Cards that alter that structure risk shaking things up so badly that interaction becomes pointless, and the only thing that matters is who can get those cards out of their deck the fastest. In other words, the games play out like every Primeval Titan game I've seen.
There are unbanned cards that nullify any game state like Worldpurge, Warp World and Scrambleverse. Sure, Worldfire is easier to abuse but everyone share their opinion here, were there a lot of Worldfires in your meta, specifically in decks dedicated to exploit it (the ones full of tutors and ramp)? I was the only one playing it and it wasn't even the centerpiece of my deck. On the other hand...
None of those reset life totals. And Warp World and Scrambleverse do not nullify the game state at all - they both depend very much on the game up 'till that point.
A card doesn't need to be pervasive or exploitable to be banned. It just has to be Worldfire. If there's any card in EDH that can't be played fairly, it's Worldfire, because all it does is suck. For everyone.
...I always see two or three decks with blue and the usual suspects Sphinx, Time Stretch, Palinchron sometimes and add Omniscience to that. There have already happen a bunch of games when one of those players mass draws into an Omniscience and the game is over from there. Barring Sphinx, all these cards are as little fun as Worldfire, if not less. There's no slippery slope at all in banning those cards since they are only the worst offenders. It's not like we plan to ban Time Warp or Rhystic Study after them.
It's much easier to interact with those cards than with Worldfire. Furthermore, if you're saying that seeing a Time Stretch is less fun than seeing a Worldfire, then I would suggest Wild Ricochet as a replacement for it in whatever red deck you took it out of. Contrary to popular belief, blue does not autowin. I mean, I can't say you're wrong, because everyone has their own definition of fun, but if yours is keeping a card that is the equivalent of flipping the table or banning the top X cards in blue, I'm just going to let that stand and back away slowly.
I can dig the banning of both cards as long as similarly game warping cards from other colors get the same treatment (I would put Diabolic Revelation on the watch list). As it was, I think this bannings solve the minority of issues people often have with EDH games. Do you people think the annoying EDH experiences end with PT and Wfire banned?
tl;dr, you hate blue. Actually, the RC should ban one blue card. And then unban it immediately when it doesn't stop anybody's complaining about the color.
There were so many ways to counter a primeval titan. Plowshares, bribery, reanimate.. the list goes on. So is this RCs way of letting the rest of us not have to play tons of removal?
What a relief... I hate running great removals, clones, and reanimates.
Its not like we need those anyway for every other power house creature..
There were so many ways to counter a primeval titan. Plowshares, bribery, reanimate.. the list goes on. So is this RCs way of letting the rest of us not have to play tons of removal?
What a relief... I hate running great removals, clones, and reanimates.
Its not like we need those anyway for every other power house creature..
Someone totally missed the point. Try reading this very thread for more of an idea about why he was banned.
Also did you really make a account just to ***** about it? Most people have accepted it and moved on. Just like Emmy. EDH is not in ruins. Games are better then ever.
A few folks mentioned never having seen Worldfire played. Well, I'm a real newbie. Started playing around December 2013, and really have only played about 3 to 4 games a month since then. The 'crowd' I play MTG with are boys ages 6 to 13. It's a small simple game night for anybody who loves any type of game. These boys have been very patient trying to teach me the game. It's slow going because 1. I'm in my late 50s and it takes a bit longer for me to remember all the rules, and 2. as I said, I play maybe 1 game a week if I'm lucky. Instead of playing one against one, most of the time we do this sort of circle, where everyone takes a turn each round. The number of players varies from 4 to about 7. Well, last night, I was playing against 4 boys, and for once I was close to winning. And then suddenly one of the 10 year olds, who had next to nothing out in front of him except a lot of manna, whipped out Worldfire and essentially everything disappeared from the table. All the creatures (most of mine having counters on them), all the manna, and we were all down to one life. It wasn't until today that I learned the card was banned. Not that it mattered, really. The way everyone plays, the rules are flexible and they play with whatever cards they acquire over time, some of which are quite old. I will say that we all had a laugh as everything on the battlefield and all the manna got put into exile and anyone could get thrown out at any moment. On the other hand, I can see why it would be banned in more formal play.
To quote one of my favorite movies:
I hope it feels so good to be right. There is nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
On the internet no less.
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
Funny thing is that I agree with both of the above.
First, you shouldn't have cards that nullify the effects of all interaction up to that point in the game. Not if you want to promote interaction. Worldfire is clearly that, so is Sway of the Stars, Upheaval, etc. Prime Time is less clearly that, but it's shocking the quantity of cards that were pointless in this format up until then and are now very good disruption. The format is better. So that's a pretty good indication that the banning was a good decision. There are probably lots of other cards that discourage interaction by giving so many resources to one player that interaction is pointless. Necropotence, Ad Nauseum, Conc Sphinx, maybe Palinchron, Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch as well. The format might be more fun if those were banned.
But second, you shouldn't ban cards just because there's a degenerate use for them. Worldfire has one use, and it's degenerate. Palinchron is a degenerate combo enabler, but it's also a dandy little 4/5 flying that's hard to kill, one that before the combat damage rules change was a scary defensive beast. Same thing with Mind Over Matter, Tooth and Nail, etc. People should be able to play these cards if they like them, and it should be and can be the community's responsibility to keep things fresh.
The problem is when one card becomes so pervasive and overused for degenerate purposes that its friendly purpose is totally overshadowed and obscure by comparison. For example, Hermit Druid. Its use as a Civic Wayfinder is there, though its kind of bad at it, but the potential to pull a Mortal Combat and other such wins are really what it's known for. Same thing with Protean Hulk, it's known most widely as an infinite combo on a stick, and so it's banned. Timmy is going to have to use Pattern of Rebirth or something else to give him the same effect.
So in sum, I think that the RC should be looking to aggressively ban two kinds of cards:
1) Cards whose only use nullifies all game interaction up to that point; and
2) Cards whose primary, notorious use nullifies all game interaction to that point, such that one one uses it any other way anymore
People are going to be upset when a card from category 2 is banned. But at least they can make the claim that they were being friendly with it, and on the anonymous internet, no one can contradict that. But no one should ever be upset that a card from category 1, like PrimeTime and Worldfire, is banned. No, it wasn't creative. You didn't find some niche, clever use for a card. That card was broken.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I would be lying if I said that I didn't have griefer purposes with Worldfire. The point is that there are far worse griefer cards and decks in the format, yet a card from the weakest EDH color was the only card banned. I call bias on that.
There are unbanned cards that nullify any game state like Worldpurge, Warp World and Scrambleverse. Sure, Worldfire is easier to abuse but everyone share their opinion here, were there a lot of Worldfires in your meta, specifically in decks dedicated to exploit it (the ones full of tutors and ramp)? I was the only one playing it and it wasn't even the centerpiece of my deck. On the other hand...
...I always see two or three decks with blue and the usual suspects Sphinx, Time Stretch, Palinchron sometimes and add Omniscience to that. There have already happen a bunch of games when one of those players mass draws into an Omniscience and the game is over from there. Barring Sphinx, all these cards are as little fun as Worldfire, if not less. There's no slippery slope at all in banning those cards since they are only the worst offenders. It's not like we plan to ban Time Warp or Rhystic Study after them.
I can dig the banning of both cards as long as similarly game warping cards from other colors get the same treatment (I would put Diabolic Revelation on the watch list). As it was, I think this bannings solve the minority of issues people often have with EDH games. Do you people think the annoying EDH experiences end with PT and Wfire banned?
Prime Time is Category 2 because, for example, let's say I'm disrupting the table really hard. I Pox, regrowth and Pox again. When you cast Wheel of Fortune, I counterspell it. Then I play Blood Moon against your 5 color deck. Through the discard, you hold onto your land because you know your average curve is 6, and you won't have any hope to do anything at all unless you can get to that land count. So turn 7 or 8 or 9, I'm attacking with my 3cc commander, then you topdeck Prime Time. Now, it doesn't matter that you're playing with an average CMC of 6, unless I answer PrimeTime or kill you fast, you're still able to cast everything your deck gives you, and as soon as you make a draw engine you're doing the same tired stuff like Genesis Wave for 15 that you'd be doing if I hadn't disrupted you at all.
Or someone Bribery's it out of your deck, or you Pattern of Rebirth for it, etc.
It's as if you're facing down a board of Momir Vig, Mystic Snake, Future Sight and Crystal Shard and someone tells you that all you need to do is cast Wrath of God to stop the bleeding from the Rampaging Baloths. The game structure is one where players draw one card and play one land per turn. Cards that alter that structure risk shaking things up so badly that interaction becomes pointless, and the only thing that matters is who can get those cards out of their deck the fastest. In other words, the games play out like every Primeval Titan game I've seen.
I call bias on you. I call bias on everyone.
None of those reset life totals. And Warp World and Scrambleverse do not nullify the game state at all - they both depend very much on the game up 'till that point.
A card doesn't need to be pervasive or exploitable to be banned. It just has to be Worldfire. If there's any card in EDH that can't be played fairly, it's Worldfire, because all it does is suck. For everyone.
It's much easier to interact with those cards than with Worldfire. Furthermore, if you're saying that seeing a Time Stretch is less fun than seeing a Worldfire, then I would suggest Wild Ricochet as a replacement for it in whatever red deck you took it out of. Contrary to popular belief, blue does not autowin. I mean, I can't say you're wrong, because everyone has their own definition of fun, but if yours is keeping a card that is the equivalent of flipping the table or banning the top X cards in blue, I'm just going to let that stand and back away slowly.
tl;dr, you hate blue. Actually, the RC should ban one blue card. And then unban it immediately when it doesn't stop anybody's complaining about the color.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
What a relief... I hate running great removals, clones, and reanimates.
Its not like we need those anyway for every other power house creature..
Someone totally missed the point. Try reading this very thread for more of an idea about why he was banned.
Also did you really make a account just to ***** about it? Most people have accepted it and moved on. Just like Emmy. EDH is not in ruins. Games are better then ever.
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