Here is a land calculator that predicts your odds of making a land drop on each turn. Note at the top you can manipulate the numbers (deck size, # of lands in deck, etc). Of course mulligan's complicate the issue, as do rocks, but just passing on this tool to anyone who might want it.
The thing about the Eternal nature of Commander is that there are so many utility lands that one can use in the case of mana flood. These lands tap for mana, but also act as spells. I'd rather run extra land, fill the slots with utility lands, and be mana flooded (yet still have something to do thanks to all these lands with abilities) than run fewer lands and have to work at digging to find more land. A properly constructed Commander deck should be able to utilize all of its mana every turn, no matter how many or how few lands that deck has in play. I'm perfectly okay running 45 lands in most decks because I know that I want to hit a land drop every turn for the entire game.
it also depends a lot on your group's mulligan rules. we give everyone a free paris partial, with additional paris partials after for -1 card. this means that it's usually pretty easy to hit a 3 land + 1 mana rock hand, even in a deck with only 35 lands. when i started playing with this group regularly, i found myself pulling a land or two out of every deck accross the board.
Oh i am sure its a magnificent speech but i just don't agree with you. This format is very different from 60 card ones, as im sure you have noticed. One of the biggest reasons is we have access to things like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault along with various signets/stones and this artifact mana greatly impacts land counts in this format. I cannot see the justification for non-green decks running 40+ land (As you can see my response was to a black deck using 42). Sure, some standard decks run 40% land but they dont use Sol Rings and Ancient Ruins.
Quote from Justice1337 »
*lots of very useful stuff*
Let me address both of these posts at the same time.
Speech incoming.
You both bring up good points, and maybe the "optimal" land count of a typical EDH deck can be reduced by many factors:
1. EDH staples Sol Ring and Mana Crypt effectively count as a land (or even two, in terms of tempo and CA), so they directly affect the land count. Mana Vault is very situation-dependent, as it is often more akin to Dark Ritual than an actual land, but still, the presence of fast mana is an essential consideration.
2. Ramp spells and more traditional "mana rocks" will let you cut a few land if you play enough of them. The "cut 1 land for every 2 of these" rule is a common one, and as long as you accept the risks involved in relying heavily on nonland sources of mana, this concept has stood the test of time.
4. Lax mulligan rules facilitate fun games, and poor deckbuilding. "One free mulligan, then Partial Paris down a card at a time, unless you still don't have a reasonable amount of land then reveal your hand and take a full grip, repeat as necessary, then scry 2 when you're done!" In this sort of scenario, it might even be best to run 30 or fewer lands, because if you can get away with it, you have a lot to gain.
5. Multiplayer politics will often look kindly on the mana screwed. You may stall at 3 mana, but in many cases people will see you in trouble and ignore you while they address the bigger threats at the table.
That said, here are two articles I rate highly when it comes to deckbuilding, manabases in particular:
I currently looking at a Thraximundar decklist someone posted on here. I think it is a fair representation of a "typical" EDH deck -- maybe even stronger than average. The point of the deck is to control the game and take over with a big fatty or the suite of planeswalkers. This list has 37 lands (Maze of Ith is not a land), 5 digging spells of CMC<3, and 5 land-getting or ramp spells of CMC<3. This is probably the equivalent of about 42 lands, and the deck has an average CMC of 3.64. The deck is fine and looks like a lot of fun to play, but without a bit of luck or aggressive mulligans it will most likely miss one or more land drops before it gets to cast the 6cc+ bombs that are the real meat and potatoes of the deck. Another 2 lands or a mini-suite of library manipulation spells could do wonders for the way this deck flows and probably increase the amount of fun its owner experiences (haha look at me try to quantify "fun" here), and increase the win percentage of the deck some amount (if one cares about such things in EDH).
What's more, many stereotypical EDH games boil down to late-game or even extreme-late-game control wars. As anyone who has played in control mirror matches will tell you, one player having access to more mana than the other is often a deciding factor. Politics and seating position are unique to multiplayer Magic, but the basic anatomy of the game remains the same: all else equal, he who draws more cards/uses more mana will win.
Yes, 40+ land is just fine for facilitating top-heavy EDH mana cruves. The added resiliency to Armageddon and Obliterate is just gravy!
Take that! My wall-of-text-about-lands technique is formidable!
Quote from LittlestMorte »
The thing about the Eternal nature of Commander is that there are so many utility lands that one can use in the case of mana flood. These lands tap for mana, but also act as spells. I'd rather run extra land, fill the slots with utility lands, and be mana flooded (yet still have something to do thanks to all these lands with abilities) than run fewer lands and have to work at digging to find more land. A properly constructed Commander deck should be able to utilize all of its mana every turn, no matter how many or how few lands that deck has in play. I'm perfectly okay running 45 lands in most decks because I know that I want to hit a land drop every turn for the entire game.
Agreed. I think Zvi Mowshowitz or someone wrote an article about that too, but I can't find the link. Lots of utility lands and lots of card drawing is the way to go, IMO.
So I had 4 lands in my first 13 cards, and 42 land in the deck. How unlucky was I? I feel like it was less than 1 in 100 but then again I would bet it's not. It sucks so much when it happens.
So I had 4 lands in my first 13 cards, and 42 land in the deck. How unlucky was I? I feel like it was less than 1 in 100 but then again I would bet it's not. It sucks so much when it happens.
I think the probability of drawing 4 or fewer lands in the top 13 cards is more like 27%. It is unlikely, but certainly not unusual. It really kind of highlights one of the points that Justice1337 was making, in that just counting on drawing mana sources naturally is not as good as actively digging for cards with Brainstorm, Sign in Blood, etc.
Quote from Eriol »
SonofaBith: A very cool link.
Indeed. I'm trying to figure out how to use it. Halp?
Indeed. I'm trying to figure out how to use it. Halp?
I'm not the author of this program, but based on the way I see it...
Deck size: how big is your deck. It starts at 60, but for Commander/EDH, I set it as 99 (the Commander starts in the Command Zone, not the Library, so it should not factor into the math)
Land size: This is a range. I put in 37-40 for a Commander/EDH deck. This is used for the table that is generated.
Turn 1 Card Draw: How big your hand is on turn 1? In multiplayer EDH, it's probably 8 (You draw 7, then your turn 1 draw). Obviously, if you mulligan, this number gets smaller.
Minimum starting land cards: Of the value in Turn 1 card draw, how many of those cards are land cards
Minimum starting non-land cards: Of the value in Turn 1 card draw, how many of those cards are non-land cards?
Max turns: How many turns do you want to see?
Decimal: how many decimal places of accuracy do you want?
The headers at the top are the number of land cards. The headers on the left are the number of turns that passed. Where the two meet is the probability of making a land drop on that turn.
Basically, if you have a minimum starting land of 1 and your turn 1 draw is 8, your first turn is guaranteed a land drop (it's in your opening hand).
To answer the question, I don't think you should run fewer than 34 no matter what, or more than 39 without a really good reason. I think the go-to land count for any Commander deck is 37, and you can add more or take some out depending on what else you run. I'd also recommend a bare minimum of 14 basics, and preferably more.
Some decks like 5 color run 40-42 lands, and Azusa as mentioned runs like 48. In a non-green control deck I'd lean towards 38 or 39 land unless you have a good reason to want to run a lot of artifacts. I'd recommend a minimum of 35 lands in a deck with green mana, and often more like 37 or 38. You have to have lands and especially basics to get with your Elders and Skyshroud Claims and what not.
Overall, I lean towards more land rather than skimping on land for a couple of reasons:
1) Mana rocks not named Darksteel Ingot get blown up. Unless you have an artifact themed deck, lands are better than all but the best artifact accelerants.
2) You want your average CMC (total CMC of all spells/100) to be no more than 2.75. If it's higher than that, your deck is probably too clunky. I recommend aiming for about 2.45.
3) Being mana screwed is no fun! No fun at all!
34 is, in my opinion, too few lands. I did that once with my old Sigarda deck and I had a lot of frustrating games where I did not draw mana, or enough mana. I try to sit right around 36-38 depending on number of colors and need, but this is all going to come down to personal experience, preference, and opinion.
40-x/2, where x is my mana rocks and other ramp cards, so long as they don't exceed 5 mana to cast. I don't go below 35. I'll go with more if it's a control deck or if lands are a big element of it, though the banning of Primeval makes the latter less likely.
Colored mana is dealt with the same way it usually is. I do my colored mana by
W = 1 white WW = 1+1/2 white WWW = 1+1/2+1/3=1+5/6 white
et cetera
Multicolor, hybrid, &c.
WU = 1 white, 1 blue
(2/W) = 1/2 white
(W/U) = 1/2 white, 1/2 blue
(G/U)W = 1 white, 1/2 green, 1/2 blue
(P/W) = 0, seriously, with 40 starting life, Phyrexian mana is barely a pinprick.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
34 is, in my opinion, too few lands. I did that once with my old Sigarda deck and I had a lot of frustrating games where I did not draw mana, or enough mana. I try to sit right around 36-38 depending on number of colors and need, but this is all going to come down to personal experience, preference, and opinion.
I think the guy who replied right after hit the nail on the head, here. I had an Esper combo deck with 12 mana rocks that ran 35 land. That's 40-(12/2)=34, plus a Maze of Ith to make 35. This deck was all about artifacts, so I wanted a lot of them.
My Maelstrom Wanderer deck only plays 2 mana rocks, but has 10 other ramp spells. I'm happy with 38 land in that deck.
I like that lands - mana rocks/2 equation. I wonder how ca tripping and ramp spells affect things. The ole "Turbo" theory was lands - cantrips/2, but it seems like the math would be different for a 100 card deck.
Idk if you got an answer yet but yes they do, remember for non-basic lands you can only have one copy but you can have as many basic lands as you want.
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http://ark42.com/mtg/land.php
For example, a Kaalia deck can run:
Strip Mine et. al
It's better to have too much land than too few, especially with how high most Commander decks go on the curve.
Teneb, the Harvester: Let there be life!
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Let me address both of these posts at the same time.
Speech incoming.
You both bring up good points, and maybe the "optimal" land count of a typical EDH deck can be reduced by many factors:
1. EDH staples Sol Ring and Mana Crypt effectively count as a land (or even two, in terms of tempo and CA), so they directly affect the land count. Mana Vault is very situation-dependent, as it is often more akin to Dark Ritual than an actual land, but still, the presence of fast mana is an essential consideration.
2. Ramp spells and more traditional "mana rocks" will let you cut a few land if you play enough of them. The "cut 1 land for every 2 of these" rule is a common one, and as long as you accept the risks involved in relying heavily on nonland sources of mana, this concept has stood the test of time.
3. Cheap card selection also lets you skimp on land a bit, if not to the same extent as mana rocks. This means Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, Vampiric Tutor, Night's Whisper, etc. As Justice pointed out, Promise of Power, Recurring Insight, and stuff DON'T COUNT!
4. Lax mulligan rules facilitate fun games, and poor deckbuilding. "One free mulligan, then Partial Paris down a card at a time, unless you still don't have a reasonable amount of land then reveal your hand and take a full grip, repeat as necessary, then scry 2 when you're done!" In this sort of scenario, it might even be best to run 30 or fewer lands, because if you can get away with it, you have a lot to gain.
5. Multiplayer politics will often look kindly on the mana screwed. You may stall at 3 mana, but in many cases people will see you in trouble and ignore you while they address the bigger threats at the table.
That said, here are two articles I rate highly when it comes to deckbuilding, manabases in particular:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/tf87
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/890_MmmmmmmmmanaFive_Rules_For_Avoiding_ManaScrew.html
I currently looking at a Thraximundar decklist someone posted on here. I think it is a fair representation of a "typical" EDH deck -- maybe even stronger than average. The point of the deck is to control the game and take over with a big fatty or the suite of planeswalkers. This list has 37 lands (Maze of Ith is not a land), 5 digging spells of CMC<3, and 5 land-getting or ramp spells of CMC<3. This is probably the equivalent of about 42 lands, and the deck has an average CMC of 3.64. The deck is fine and looks like a lot of fun to play, but without a bit of luck or aggressive mulligans it will most likely miss one or more land drops before it gets to cast the 6cc+ bombs that are the real meat and potatoes of the deck. Another 2 lands or a mini-suite of library manipulation spells could do wonders for the way this deck flows and probably increase the amount of fun its owner experiences (haha look at me try to quantify "fun" here), and increase the win percentage of the deck some amount (if one cares about such things in EDH).
What's more, many stereotypical EDH games boil down to late-game or even extreme-late-game control wars. As anyone who has played in control mirror matches will tell you, one player having access to more mana than the other is often a deciding factor. Politics and seating position are unique to multiplayer Magic, but the basic anatomy of the game remains the same: all else equal, he who draws more cards/uses more mana will win.
Yes, 40+ land is just fine for facilitating top-heavy EDH mana cruves. The added resiliency to Armageddon and Obliterate is just gravy!
Take that! My wall-of-text-about-lands technique is formidable!
Agreed. I think Zvi Mowshowitz or someone wrote an article about that too, but I can't find the link. Lots of utility lands and lots of card drawing is the way to go, IMO.
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LittlestMorte: Thanks for the list of lands. Some of them I would not have considered.
Justice1337: Thanks for the advice.
I think the probability of drawing 4 or fewer lands in the top 13 cards is more like 27%. It is unlikely, but certainly not unusual. It really kind of highlights one of the points that Justice1337 was making, in that just counting on drawing mana sources naturally is not as good as actively digging for cards with Brainstorm, Sign in Blood, etc.
Indeed. I'm trying to figure out how to use it. Halp?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I'm not the author of this program, but based on the way I see it...
Deck size: how big is your deck. It starts at 60, but for Commander/EDH, I set it as 99 (the Commander starts in the Command Zone, not the Library, so it should not factor into the math)
Land size: This is a range. I put in 37-40 for a Commander/EDH deck. This is used for the table that is generated.
Turn 1 Card Draw: How big your hand is on turn 1? In multiplayer EDH, it's probably 8 (You draw 7, then your turn 1 draw). Obviously, if you mulligan, this number gets smaller.
Minimum starting land cards: Of the value in Turn 1 card draw, how many of those cards are land cards
Minimum starting non-land cards: Of the value in Turn 1 card draw, how many of those cards are non-land cards?
Max turns: How many turns do you want to see?
Decimal: how many decimal places of accuracy do you want?
The headers at the top are the number of land cards. The headers on the left are the number of turns that passed. Where the two meet is the probability of making a land drop on that turn.
Basically, if you have a minimum starting land of 1 and your turn 1 draw is 8, your first turn is guaranteed a land drop (it's in your opening hand).
I tried this query, and it seems that after turn 5, you start having an abysmal chance of getting a land drop.
http://ark42.com/mtg/land.php?decksize=99&landmin=36&landmax=42&firstdraw=8&minstartland=2&minstartnonland=6&turnsmax=30&chart=1&round=1
Some decks like 5 color run 40-42 lands, and Azusa as mentioned runs like 48. In a non-green control deck I'd lean towards 38 or 39 land unless you have a good reason to want to run a lot of artifacts. I'd recommend a minimum of 35 lands in a deck with green mana, and often more like 37 or 38. You have to have lands and especially basics to get with your Elders and Skyshroud Claims and what not.
Overall, I lean towards more land rather than skimping on land for a couple of reasons:
1) Mana rocks not named Darksteel Ingot get blown up. Unless you have an artifact themed deck, lands are better than all but the best artifact accelerants.
2) You want your average CMC (total CMC of all spells/100) to be no more than 2.75. If it's higher than that, your deck is probably too clunky. I recommend aiming for about 2.45.
3) Being mana screwed is no fun! No fun at all!
Colored mana is dealt with the same way it usually is. I do my colored mana by
W = 1 white
WW = 1+1/2 white
WWW = 1+1/2+1/3=1+5/6 white
et cetera
Multicolor, hybrid, &c.
WU = 1 white, 1 blue
(2/W) = 1/2 white
(W/U) = 1/2 white, 1/2 blue
(G/U)W = 1 white, 1/2 green, 1/2 blue
(P/W) = 0, seriously, with 40 starting life, Phyrexian mana is barely a pinprick.
On phasing:
I think the guy who replied right after hit the nail on the head, here. I had an Esper combo deck with 12 mana rocks that ran 35 land. That's 40-(12/2)=34, plus a Maze of Ith to make 35. This deck was all about artifacts, so I wanted a lot of them.
My Maelstrom Wanderer deck only plays 2 mana rocks, but has 10 other ramp spells. I'm happy with 38 land in that deck.
I like that lands - mana rocks/2 equation. I wonder how ca tripping and ramp spells affect things. The ole "Turbo" theory was lands - cantrips/2, but it seems like the math would be different for a 100 card deck.
to make land creatures for mana ramp.
This thread is actually a necro, but concepts like this don't really get dated.
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