One of the other main guys in the group runs Prime Titan in every single one of his decks save for one, and that one is monoblack. He is absolutely furious over the ban and refuses to take the Titans out of his decks, saying the reason behind the ban is stupid, it dies to removal, can be countered, etc. You all know the usual routine.
I just think this is seriously going to hurt our playgroup, we don't get many opportunities to really get together to play nowadays, we're all close friends so we really can't exclude someone over something like this. I just don't like the idea of using house rules, especially because I know there are some people we play with, or random people we occasionally play with that obviously wouldn't be happy with it.
I was pissed when Griselbrand got banned. I'm pissed that Worldfire got banned, but I'm not gonna say "**** the RC, **** the banlist, I'm going to run them anyways".
I've tried explaining the reason behind the ban on Titan better, saying its an opportunity to try something new, that the fact that so many people have to make changes or reevaluate their decks because of the ban is a great example of why he needs to be on the list (even if I don't think that on a power-level basis he is THAT bad), and if he really isn't so bad that he needs to be banned, replacing him shouldn't be a big deal. Only to be met with more "**** the RC, **** Sheldon, etc." kinda comments.
the fact that so many people have to make changes or reevaluate their decks because of the ban is a great example of why he needs to be on the list (even if I don't think that on a power-level basis he is THAT bad), and if he really isn't so bad that he needs to be banned, replacing him shouldn't be a big deal. Only to be met with more "**** the RC, **** Sheldon, etc." kinda comments.
I think this is the most important part to take from this whether you agree or disagree with the ban. Name one other staple card that would throw up this kind of reaction. If you can't find one then you should have some insight into why some people don't like seeing prime time. If you can name one then go ahead and compare them and see how they line up. The closest I can think of is consecrated sphinx.
As for the play group being split, mine is similar and I'm not sure what we are going to do. I'm a least ready to take him out and try it. I'm assuming we will at least give that a chance especially considering one of my decks is a huge prime time abuser.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
1) Break up the play group (Starting with the least attractive option)
2) Allow it if they permit 1 card per player off the list (that you all agree to) say you want to play with recurring nightmare for example allow PT unbanned and RN for another player and X for another and Y for another (Agree to the unbannings first)
3) Ignore the RC
4) Ignore PT bannings
5) Make them take it out even if they leave the group
2 is obviously the best choice but replacing PT either makes your deck far more spike oriented or makes it significantly worse.
Name one other card that would start this kind of discussion and have so many reactions.
i share a similar fate. i told everyone i am still running him and if they dont like it dont play with me.luckily everyone agrees
I don't really like this train of thought. I'm all in favor of house ban-lists and am fine with any group that decides to run with Primeval. Deciding to do whatever you want ignoring everyone else doesn't seem the way to go. In that case you should simply abolish the ban-list and let anyone run whatever they want. That's not accusatory, if your group did that it'd be fine. I just see no reason for Primeval to get a special exception while leaving the rest of the ban-list intact.
I think this is the most important part to take form this whether you agree or disagree with the ban. Name one other card that would start this kind of discussion and have so many reactions.
Painters Servant and Sundering Titan both elicited that same reaction.
On the group: I would just ask them to vote, and 2/3 would over-rule the RC. Or alternately you could play once a month with no ban list.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Painters Servant and Sundering Titan both elicited that same reaction.
On the group: I would just ask them to vote, and 2/3 would over-rule the RC. Or alternately you could play once a month with no ban list.
So you think your fun is more important than anyone else? Not very social.
Eh. I'd have to disagree, especially because I don't ever remember a thread like this appearing for any other ban. I could be wrong though.
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EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
One of the guys in our group is furious because we told him we intent to stand by the ban. It sucks that people are getting mad, but Prime Time was a problem and needed to go.
Make it clear it is the reason you are killing him.
Even if titan leaves play, pursue until he is dead.
This is not a good idea, in the slightest. If you don't want him to play PT, then tell him to change it or leave. He might think you're being a dick, but it's less dick-ish than this.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Make it clear it is the reason you are killing him.
Even if titan leaves play, pursue until he is dead.
Classical conditioning. This will work.
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2UURRniv mizzet, the firemind endless fiery mind wheels of death 3WRjor kadeen, the prevailer weenies and extra combat forever 3RRzirilan of the claw dragons and damage doublers 4:SymRG::SymRG:wort, the raidmother burn is now EDH viable 2WUkangee, aerie keeper birds 1UBRjeleva, nephalia's scourge spellslinger/storm
here are the mana costs of generals i no longer play: 2BR3BB3UBG4UB:SymUB::SymUB:2URRG3WWU2UU2GGUUBGG
To gain perspective, I run Serra Ascendant in my mono-white Darien deck. IF it came to pass that the RC decided to ban that because of it's T1 @ 40 life shenanigans, I'd be hardpressed to follow that ruling because my deck attempts to tutor for it and rehash it often.
However, others in my meta are already frustrated with the card as it can make for degenerate plays. If the ban did occur, at least one person would cheer it out of my deck.
In the end, I believe 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' isn't enough when dealing with a community. Everyone counts. There are 3 tiers of 'community' to consider: 1) Your house meta. 2) Your LGS 3) The EDH community.
Depending on how intergrated a player you are in the EDH community will depend on the level of 'give' you need to make with your community. In ALL cases, I think the decision to keep the card in play, despite the ban, should be uniformly and unanimously decided. Majority isn't enough.
Thus, if a single person of your 'tier' wants to maintain the ban, as per the decision made by the current ruling body of EDH, then you should not impose, whether through majority or minority, decision to continue to play the card.
Hey, Sheldon! Great format you got here. I really enjoy the challenge inherent in singleton Magic, the crazy fun things the format allows me to do, and of course hanging out with my friends and having a lengthy casual game.
But, unfortunately, you have decided to take your format in a direction that is not conducive to how I feel it should be. Therefore I will not be adhering to your decision and I will not be taking the Primeval Titans out of my deck.
Play Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, and Black Lotus. Combo them out with Fastbond into a Tolarian Academy powered Tinker into Time Vault + Key.
Ask them if they will reconsider playing Primeval Titan in their deck.
This is basically what I was going to post.
I luckily have a Black Lotus and Chaos Orb from when I played back in the day. So I put them in my binder next to a Tinker, Tolarian Academy, and Sundering Titan and when someone says they refuse to remove prime time I am going just start putting them into my deck. What argument are they going to use to stop me at that point?
Depending on how intergrated a player you are in the EDH community will depend on the level of 'give' you need to make with your community. In ALL cases, I think the decision to keep the card in play, despite the ban, should be uniformly and unanimously decided. Majority isn't enough.
Thus, if a single person of your 'tier' wants to maintain the ban, as per the decision made by the current ruling body of EDH, then you should not impose, whether through majority or minority, decision to continue to play the card.
Just my thoughts...
Thats the way my group has treated it. We all pulled out our titans at work today. I was sad to see my sexy foily titan go. I traded hard for him :mad:.
A couple of the guys are mad, a couple happy that the others are mad :pand then there are the few of us who are taking it as a challenge to revamp our builds. I just bought scapeshift for my dredge deck to replace him. It wont ramp but it will certainly get my cofferborg, high market and maze.... Lets see how it works
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Currently Playing Modern :symu::0mana:Sundering-Architect:0mana::symu: EDH :symr::symg::symw:Uril the Miststalker:symw::symg::symr:/:symb::symg::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain:symw::symg::symb: Legacy :symr:Burn:symr:
I honestly wish chaos orb was unbanned. Seems hilarious and I would totally shell out the cash for one
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Casual Cube EDH: UR Niv-Mizzet's Madness BGW Ghave's Garden WUBRG Karona's Chaos
Retired: Too damn many to count Vintage: URWelder WUBRG Dredge Kitchen Table: B Zombies in Your Head
This is not a good idea, in the slightest. If you don't want him to play PT, then tell him to change it or leave. He might think you're being a dick, but it's less dick-ish than this.
This is why I said to make it clear why you are doing it. I don't see how the person doing this could be considered the dick, when someone is ignoring the rules of the game.
I luckily have a Black Lotus and Chaos Orb from when I played back in the day. So I put them in my binder next to a Tinker, Tolarian Academy, and Sundering Titan and when someone says they refuse to remove prime time I am going just start putting them into my deck. What argument are they going to use to stop me at that point?
I agree 100%.
Refusing to follow the rules is just selfish and truly shows how much character an individual has.
Just because I am speeding down a 25 mph road that I think should be 35, doesn't mean I don't deserve the speeding ticket when I get it.
This is why I said to make it clear why you are doing it. I don't see how the person doing this could be considered the dick, when someone is ignoring the rules of the game.
Stating the reason you're doing it doesn't make the act of doing it any more kind. If you punch me and steal my wallet, and then tell me you're doing it because you need the money for your ailing family member, you'll still probably wind up going to prison.
Sheldon has said repeatedly that he and the RC support the idea of house rules. The EDH Banlist is only designed to give traveling players a general consensus of what not to play when they leave their home turf. Many people follow it, not because it's completely and perfectly balanced, but because it's there, they don't have to set it up for themselves, and a vast majority of the cards on it are justifiably bannable. Think about all the testing done by Sheldon and Bobthefunny on Kokusho alone. How many people would go through all the trouble of testing PT in that degree of rigor? (BTW, I'd love to be wrong on this and see some testing on PT done, if anyone's got the time and the stones.)
To be clear, the offending player isn't right in this situation either, but two wrongs don't make a right. It really isn't that hard to ask somebody to follow the rules or not play, I promise.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
I'm not sure why they would be so attached to primeval titan. It doesn't make or break any strategy, does it? It's purely good stuff. Taking it out gives you room for one more thematic card. We've never even owned a primetime, and no one else in our playgroup uses him (maybe someone at our lgs). I can't imagine being too upset. Did he go out and buy a bunch for his edh decks?
I'm not sure why they would be so attached to primeval titan. It doesn't make or break any strategy, does it? It's purely good stuff. Taking it out gives you room for one more thematic card. We've never even owned a primetime, and no one else in our playgroup uses him (maybe someone at our lgs). I can't imagine being too upset. Did he go out and buy a bunch for his edh decks?
*shrug*
It does make or break strategies. This isn't an argument for or against the ban, but I thought you should know. I wrote this in another thread:
At turn 6 primeval titan can be exiled and it wouldn't matter. I have 26 mana with deserted temple untapping cabal coffers, with a kessig wolf run waiting to smash anyone with kresh. Kresh is now lethal and has trample, with some mana to spare for whatever I need. Did I mention I can still fetch inkmoth nexus for use with kessig?
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EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
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One of the other main guys in the group runs Prime Titan in every single one of his decks save for one, and that one is monoblack. He is absolutely furious over the ban and refuses to take the Titans out of his decks, saying the reason behind the ban is stupid, it dies to removal, can be countered, etc. You all know the usual routine.
I just think this is seriously going to hurt our playgroup, we don't get many opportunities to really get together to play nowadays, we're all close friends so we really can't exclude someone over something like this. I just don't like the idea of using house rules, especially because I know there are some people we play with, or random people we occasionally play with that obviously wouldn't be happy with it.
I was pissed when Griselbrand got banned. I'm pissed that Worldfire got banned, but I'm not gonna say "**** the RC, **** the banlist, I'm going to run them anyways".
I've tried explaining the reason behind the ban on Titan better, saying its an opportunity to try something new, that the fact that so many people have to make changes or reevaluate their decks because of the ban is a great example of why he needs to be on the list (even if I don't think that on a power-level basis he is THAT bad), and if he really isn't so bad that he needs to be banned, replacing him shouldn't be a big deal. Only to be met with more "**** the RC, **** Sheldon, etc." kinda comments.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I think this is the most important part to take from this whether you agree or disagree with the ban. Name one other staple card that would throw up this kind of reaction. If you can't find one then you should have some insight into why some people don't like seeing prime time. If you can name one then go ahead and compare them and see how they line up. The closest I can think of is consecrated sphinx.
As for the play group being split, mine is similar and I'm not sure what we are going to do. I'm a least ready to take him out and try it. I'm assuming we will at least give that a chance especially considering one of my decks is a huge prime time abuser.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
1) Break up the play group (Starting with the least attractive option)
2) Allow it if they permit 1 card per player off the list (that you all agree to) say you want to play with recurring nightmare for example allow PT unbanned and RN for another player and X for another and Y for another (Agree to the unbannings first)
3) Ignore the RC
4) Ignore PT bannings
5) Make them take it out even if they leave the group
2 is obviously the best choice but replacing PT either makes your deck far more spike oriented or makes it significantly worse.
Sol ring
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Personally I run it in one deck, but I'm fine with trying out new things. I like the card, but I think it needed to go too.
I don't really like this train of thought. I'm all in favor of house ban-lists and am fine with any group that decides to run with Primeval. Deciding to do whatever you want ignoring everyone else doesn't seem the way to go. In that case you should simply abolish the ban-list and let anyone run whatever they want. That's not accusatory, if your group did that it'd be fine. I just see no reason for Primeval to get a special exception while leaving the rest of the ban-list intact.
EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
On the group: I would just ask them to vote, and 2/3 would over-rule the RC. Or alternately you could play once a month with no ban list.
So you think your fun is more important than anyone else? Not very social.
Eh. I'd have to disagree, especially because I don't ever remember a thread like this appearing for any other ban. I could be wrong though.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Make it clear it is the reason you are killing him.
Even if titan leaves play, pursue until he is dead.
Ask them if they will reconsider playing Primeval Titan in their deck.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT
This is not a good idea, in the slightest. If you don't want him to play PT, then tell him to change it or leave. He might think you're being a dick, but it's less dick-ish than this.
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
Classical conditioning. This will work.
3WR jor kadeen, the prevailer weenies and extra combat forever
3RR zirilan of the claw dragons and damage doublers
4:SymRG::SymRG: wort, the raidmother burn is now EDH viable
2WU kangee, aerie keeper birds
1UBR jeleva, nephalia's scourge spellslinger/storm
here are the mana costs of generals i no longer play: 2BR3BB3UBG4UB:SymUB::SymUB:2URRG3WWU2UU2GGUUBGG
3UWR numot, the devastator of [the spirit of edh]
To gain perspective, I run Serra Ascendant in my mono-white Darien deck. IF it came to pass that the RC decided to ban that because of it's T1 @ 40 life shenanigans, I'd be hardpressed to follow that ruling because my deck attempts to tutor for it and rehash it often.
However, others in my meta are already frustrated with the card as it can make for degenerate plays. If the ban did occur, at least one person would cheer it out of my deck.
In the end, I believe 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' isn't enough when dealing with a community. Everyone counts. There are 3 tiers of 'community' to consider: 1) Your house meta. 2) Your LGS 3) The EDH community.
Depending on how intergrated a player you are in the EDH community will depend on the level of 'give' you need to make with your community. In ALL cases, I think the decision to keep the card in play, despite the ban, should be uniformly and unanimously decided. Majority isn't enough.
Thus, if a single person of your 'tier' wants to maintain the ban, as per the decision made by the current ruling body of EDH, then you should not impose, whether through majority or minority, decision to continue to play the card.
Just my thoughts...
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
But, unfortunately, you have decided to take your format in a direction that is not conducive to how I feel it should be. Therefore I will not be adhering to your decision and I will not be taking the Primeval Titans out of my deck.
Signed,
That Guy
P.S. Next time please ban something I agree with.
P.P.S. I'm putting Jace, the Mind Sculptor back into my Modern deck, too.
This is basically what I was going to post.
I luckily have a Black Lotus and Chaos Orb from when I played back in the day. So I put them in my binder next to a Tinker, Tolarian Academy, and Sundering Titan and when someone says they refuse to remove prime time I am going just start putting them into my deck. What argument are they going to use to stop me at that point?
Thats the way my group has treated it. We all pulled out our titans at work today. I was sad to see my sexy foily titan go. I traded hard for him :mad:.
A couple of the guys are mad, a couple happy that the others are mad :pand then there are the few of us who are taking it as a challenge to revamp our builds. I just bought scapeshift for my dredge deck to replace him. It wont ramp but it will certainly get my cofferborg, high market and maze.... Lets see how it works
Modern
:symu::0mana:Sundering-Architect:0mana::symu:
EDH
:symr::symg::symw:Uril the Miststalker:symw::symg::symr:/:symb::symg::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain:symw::symg::symb:
Legacy
:symr:Burn:symr:
My Cube
Some of my Alters
My Trades (retired)
My Sales
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet's Madness
BGW Ghave's Garden
WUBRG Karona's Chaos
Retired: Too damn many to count
Vintage:
URWelder
WUBRG Dredge
Kitchen Table:
B Zombies in Your Head
This is why I said to make it clear why you are doing it. I don't see how the person doing this could be considered the dick, when someone is ignoring the rules of the game.
He is pretty pissed.
You are perfectly allowed to make your own rules, but I also agree thats means that every banned card is back on the table for your own consideration.
It is fair to put in other banned cards into your deck if your opponent wants to play primetime.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I actually like Scapeshift a lot now that I've thought about it. The option of finding more than two lands for less mana seems good.
I agree 100%.
Refusing to follow the rules is just selfish and truly shows how much character an individual has.
Just because I am speeding down a 25 mph road that I think should be 35, doesn't mean I don't deserve the speeding ticket when I get it.
From a fun (and even competitive standpoint) there's no reason to ever not adapt. If the format becomes so messed up, then leave.
Stating the reason you're doing it doesn't make the act of doing it any more kind. If you punch me and steal my wallet, and then tell me you're doing it because you need the money for your ailing family member, you'll still probably wind up going to prison.
Sheldon has said repeatedly that he and the RC support the idea of house rules. The EDH Banlist is only designed to give traveling players a general consensus of what not to play when they leave their home turf. Many people follow it, not because it's completely and perfectly balanced, but because it's there, they don't have to set it up for themselves, and a vast majority of the cards on it are justifiably bannable. Think about all the testing done by Sheldon and Bobthefunny on Kokusho alone. How many people would go through all the trouble of testing PT in that degree of rigor? (BTW, I'd love to be wrong on this and see some testing on PT done, if anyone's got the time and the stones.)
To be clear, the offending player isn't right in this situation either, but two wrongs don't make a right. It really isn't that hard to ask somebody to follow the rules or not play, I promise.
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
*shrug*
It does make or break strategies. This isn't an argument for or against the ban, but I thought you should know. I wrote this in another thread:
Let me tell you why my kresh deck is crying:
Turn 4 cast primeval titan and bring out cabal coffers and urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
Turn 5 I now have 13 mana. Swing primeval titan. Grab kessig wolf run and deserted temple. Also cast my general kresh the bloodbraided. Cast other things.
At turn 6 primeval titan can be exiled and it wouldn't matter. I have 26 mana with deserted temple untapping cabal coffers, with a kessig wolf run waiting to smash anyone with kresh. Kresh is now lethal and has trample, with some mana to spare for whatever I need. Did I mention I can still fetch inkmoth nexus for use with kessig?
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG