Threads like this make EDH less fun because powerful cards should be played in EDH and things like this only cause the RC to ban more cards. They're all "fair" and dumb combos can still win with them around, as can hyper aggro builds.
Lets see, this does come down to whether the context is Multiplayer or 1v1.
In multiplayer Kokusho is by far the best of the 3 IMO, with Sphinx being the worst. Simply because sphinx needs to have an opponent draw before any benefit is gained from in. In Multiplayer it's unlikely this will happen until you are already winning. Kokusho's ability is best in Multiplayer with the more players the better, with Primevil being in the middle, as he is going to get you to 8 mana at least.
In 1v1 the tables turn. Kokusho is the worst of the 3, having only one opponent to leech from. Now depending on the point in the game is whether the titan or the sphinx tops the 1v1 category. Titan gives a massive boost at the start of the game, not so much during the later stages if you already have a ton of mana out. Sphinx in the early game could still be killed before any benefits, but this gets less likely as the game progresses, since by then there would be counter magic to back him up.
I don't really like seeing any of the above creatures hit the table, but I don't think they should be banned.
Just like how its up to the playgroup the ensure that the hermit druid deck doesn't get played when everybody else is running craw wurm decks, if the majority of the playgroup doesn't like herp-a-derp green decks vomiting half their decks off a Primeval Titan-fueled genesis wave, its their responsibility to create an enjoyable atmosphere, by either metagaming the decks out, or taking the pilot aside and having a stern word with them.
Lets see, this does come down to whether the context is Multiplayer or 1v1.
In multiplayer Kokusho is by far the best of the 3 IMO, with Sphinx being the worst. Simply because sphinx needs to have an opponent draw before any benefit is gained from in. In Multiplayer it's unlikely this will happen until you are already winning. Kokusho's ability is best in Multiplayer with the more players the better, with Primevil being in the middle, as he is going to get you to 8 mana at least.
In 1v1 the tables turn. Kokusho is the worst of the 3, having only one opponent to leech from. Now depending on the point in the game is whether the titan or the sphinx tops the 1v1 category. Titan gives a massive boost at the start of the game, not so much during the later stages if you already have a ton of mana out. Sphinx in the early game could still be killed before any benefits, but this gets less likely as the game progresses, since by then there would be counter magic to back him up.
So I went with none.
Lolno
Sphinx is several orders of magnitude the strongest 6drop in the format. Kokusho is not even a blip on the radar anymore without Recurring Nightmare. Sphinx will replace itself the moment you pass your turn, as Primeval Titan will when he ETB. But unlike Sphinx, you don't need to attack with the Sphinx to get advanced mileage out of him. He threatens people to not get greedy to draw too much, He draws you cards simply by your opponents having turns. And if two Sphinx are on the battlefield at the same time, you pretty much draw your deck.
Even if you used Titan to grab Coffers/Urborg, i've never seen more games one than off the back of the Sphinx. Kokusho can't even compare, the card never should have been printed.
I say this all the time on this website because this is the only place where i hear ppl clamoring for bannings on a daily basis; If 6-drop creatures are owning you, then you need to reform your deck with ways to fight it or you deserve to lose. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
I have to say, I'm seriously surprised at how highly people rate Sphinx. I still see it as a more abusable, more fragile, and generally worse Recurring Insight.
Sphinx is several orders of magnitude the strongest 6drop in the format. Kokusho is not even a blip on the radar anymore without Recurring Nightmare. Sphinx will replace itself the moment you pass your turn, as Primeval Titan will when he ETB. But unlike Sphinx, you don't need to attack with the Sphinx to get advanced mileage out of him. He threatens people to not get greedy to draw too much, He draws you cards simply by your opponents having turns. And if two Sphinx are on the battlefield at the same time, you pretty much draw your deck.
That was the point I was trying to make. Titan does get the lands straight away. If he attacks that's even better, but he at least will get you some lands. Sphinx requires surviving an End Step and an Upkeep before any benefits are made. In my meta, unless you are already winning with a handful of counterspells and or your opponents on the ropes, that's not happening. In a removal happy meta like mine it doesn't survive. You paid 6 mana for nothing.
Even if you used Titan to grab Coffers/Urborg, i've never seen more games one than off the back of the Sphinx. Kokusho can't even compare, the card never should have been printed.
We are measuring our choices differently obviously. Mine is based on immediate board presence, yours is long term. Sure if one of the 3 survives a few turns I would have to agree that Sphinx is the best of the 3, but like I stated above, you'd have to be either already winning, or your opponents virtually dead already for that to happen.
I have to say, I'm seriously surprised at how highly people rate Sphinx. I still see it as a more abusable, more fragile, and generally worse Recurring Insight.
If it sticks you win.. pretty much.
Unless you're not playing counterspells, then you'll just have a ton of stuff to throw out after the sphinx dies. Maybe a reanimate for it. Gotta remember creatures are easily killable, but easily tutorable and recurrable
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I think all of them are great cards but not ban worthy. I haven't actually played against KoKo but as far as the other two go I don't think I've ever had a single game ruined by either of them. Just because they're good doesn't make them banworthy.
The amount of *****ing people do is disproportionate to the power level of these cards. It's just easier to whine and cry for a banning than it is deal with the problem during play. Yes, they're "answer or you loose" in the proper situation, but that's largely a playgroup and meta-dependent issue. None of these guys ever make it a full pass around the tables at my LGS. I can't even remember the last time any of them swung.
I think everyone should start brewing and stop *****ing, or just ban the card(s) in their own respective playgroup. Really. Even the official council suggests using custom ban lists. Don't toss the rest of us in with you because you can't handle 3 six drops.
The amount of *****ing people do is disproportionate to the power level of these cards. It's just easier to whine and cry for a banning than it is deal with the problem during play. Yes, they're "answer or you loose" in the proper situation, but that's largely a playgroup and meta-dependent issue. None of these guys ever make it a full pass around the tables at my LGS. I can't even remember the last time any of them swung.
I think everyone should start brewing and stop *****ing, or just ban the card(s) in their own respective playgroup. Really. Even the official council suggests using custom ban lists. Don't toss the rest of us in with you because you can't handle 3 six drops.
My vote should be obvious.
Well said, I feel like sometimes people misunderstand what the banlist is for. The banlist is there to retain balance in the format and create a healthy enviroment. Can anyone honestly tell me Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx are creating unbalanced unhealthy games? Or are they just good cards that honestly are quite easily dealt with?
Well said, I feel like sometimes people misunderstand what the banlist is for. The banlist is there to retain balance in the format and create a healthy enviroment. Can anyone honestly tell me Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx are creating unbalanced unhealthy games? Or are they just good cards that honestly are quite easily dealt with?
They're good cards that might be slightly overpowered in a format where they can be easily abused. They also provide an easy foothold during construction for veterans and scrubs alike. They are not game ending, game warping, or stronger than Superman on Green Latern-powered ultra crack.
That about sums it up.
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I'm a casual player. I voted for no bannings. They are powerful cards, but I like powerful cards.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
EDh has all sorts of broken plays... When I want balanced play I play a different casual variant.
The problem IMO is many casual players wants EDH to be balanced rather than exploring a more casual variant.
QFT. Expectations poke holes in player logic, and bias damns opinions into kids slinging insults at one another on an open forum. Casual MTG has no laws-there are tons of ways to play, and again, there's nothing stopping people from crafting their own boarders within their playgroup. EDH can be as silly and broken or as restricted as players want. Yet, players feel entitled to make EVERYONE play their way.
The ego on the individuals here and abroad is astounding.
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I have to say, I'm seriously surprised at how highly people rate Sphinx. I still see it as a more abusable, more fragile, and generally worse Recurring Insight.
I actually have seen Sphinx once in a multiplayer game....and then I killed it, and exiled it before shenanigans occurred.
PrimeTime is a very,very,very bad offender, and when i kill one, i go reanimate my opponents. (I dont own any titans ;D) I hardly see it in 2 of my playgroups because they're currently using it for Standard, and we're all a bit strapped for cash, so there's little overlap in cards.
I'm with SurgingChaos' tag under his Avatar, #OccupyKokusho
I'll reiterate what I said earlier though, is it worth it to go Occupy the "main" forums to plead our case? I understand that MTGS is the largest community for EDH period, and the most advanced, but nothing will change if we dont go over there. We ALL know the RC's general disdain for the forum, and we saw what happened when Sheldon poked his head in last summer and it was ripped off by some of the less considerate members.
Are they good? Yes
Is there plenty of creature removal in EDH? Yes
They are all incredibly amazing, but seeing as they have never won me a game, I wouldnt say ban them. I have comboed with Prime Time on more than one occasion, but it doesnt make it ban worthy.
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I've had more issues with Eldrazi than most of these, honestly.
Same. Just last night in fact I let a friend play with my Damia deck, and he threw out a non-entwined Tooth and Nail on T5 (thanks Sol Ring) and put Ulamog and Prime Time into play from his hand. And he had a Lightning Greaves to attack with Ulamog right away and blow away all my lands. I scooped, and the rest of the table soon followed.
Why do I play with these cards?! Lol. Granted games like that are rare but even so. They DO happen, and that is something to look at.
Some would argue it was Sol Ring's fault but whatever.
I have to say, I'm seriously surprised at how highly people rate Sphinx. I still see it as a more abusable, more fragile, and generally worse Recurring Insight.
Best scenario is when facing you and an opposing Sphinxes "Draw-battle" while the rest of the board watch in horror. Why yes, you go ahead draw 2 to my 1 then I'll draw 4, then you draw 8, then I draw 16, etc. Obviously, I won that turn with the needed cards.
Best scenario is when facing you and an opposing Sphinxes "Draw-battle" while the rest of the board watch in horror. Why yes, you go ahead draw 2 to my 1 then I'll draw 4, then you draw 8, then I draw 16, etc. Obviously, I won that turn with the needed cards.
Yeah, this is my big complaint with Sphinx, but my playgroup has agreed to a "gentleman's agreement" in which Sphinxes cannot draw off of each others' draws. This turns it to merely "really good" rather than "game-endingly stupid" in the all-too-common case of double-sphinx.
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It seems that Sphinx and Prime Titan do make the game less fun when playing in a more casual way. They simply degenerate the game into being only about them. Yes they can be killed, yes you can steal/copy them. But when the game becomes about only a few specific creatures instead of actually playing the entire scenario becomes less interesting.
That being said, in no way should they be banned (and the same about Koko). I think more people should try playing without them though.
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The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Sol Ring has an outstanding gentleman's agreement in place. Someone plays a first turn Sol Ring, everyone beats on that person until they're too beaten down to be a threat for a few turns.
Anyone who calls for a ban or supports koko's ban is either confused or stubborn
In multiplayer Kokusho is by far the best of the 3 IMO, with Sphinx being the worst. Simply because sphinx needs to have an opponent draw before any benefit is gained from in. In Multiplayer it's unlikely this will happen until you are already winning. Kokusho's ability is best in Multiplayer with the more players the better, with Primevil being in the middle, as he is going to get you to 8 mana at least.
In 1v1 the tables turn. Kokusho is the worst of the 3, having only one opponent to leech from. Now depending on the point in the game is whether the titan or the sphinx tops the 1v1 category. Titan gives a massive boost at the start of the game, not so much during the later stages if you already have a ton of mana out. Sphinx in the early game could still be killed before any benefits, but this gets less likely as the game progresses, since by then there would be counter magic to back him up.
So I went with none.
Just like how its up to the playgroup the ensure that the hermit druid deck doesn't get played when everybody else is running craw wurm decks, if the majority of the playgroup doesn't like herp-a-derp green decks vomiting half their decks off a Primeval Titan-fueled genesis wave, its their responsibility to create an enjoyable atmosphere, by either metagaming the decks out, or taking the pilot aside and having a stern word with them.
Lolno
Sphinx is several orders of magnitude the strongest 6drop in the format. Kokusho is not even a blip on the radar anymore without Recurring Nightmare. Sphinx will replace itself the moment you pass your turn, as Primeval Titan will when he ETB. But unlike Sphinx, you don't need to attack with the Sphinx to get advanced mileage out of him. He threatens people to not get greedy to draw too much, He draws you cards simply by your opponents having turns. And if two Sphinx are on the battlefield at the same time, you pretty much draw your deck.
Even if you used Titan to grab Coffers/Urborg, i've never seen more games one than off the back of the Sphinx. Kokusho can't even compare, the card never should have been printed.
Roger that!!! Couldn't have said it any better.
That was the point I was trying to make. Titan does get the lands straight away. If he attacks that's even better, but he at least will get you some lands. Sphinx requires surviving an End Step and an Upkeep before any benefits are made. In my meta, unless you are already winning with a handful of counterspells and or your opponents on the ropes, that's not happening. In a removal happy meta like mine it doesn't survive. You paid 6 mana for nothing.
We are measuring our choices differently obviously. Mine is based on immediate board presence, yours is long term. Sure if one of the 3 survives a few turns I would have to agree that Sphinx is the best of the 3, but like I stated above, you'd have to be either already winning, or your opponents virtually dead already for that to happen.
If it sticks you win.. pretty much.
Unless you're not playing counterspells, then you'll just have a ton of stuff to throw out after the sphinx dies. Maybe a reanimate for it. Gotta remember creatures are easily killable, but easily tutorable and recurrable
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Experimental Kraj
I think everyone should start brewing and stop *****ing, or just ban the card(s) in their own respective playgroup. Really. Even the official council suggests using custom ban lists. Don't toss the rest of us in with you because you can't handle 3 six drops.
My vote should be obvious.
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Actual Truth:
Well said, I feel like sometimes people misunderstand what the banlist is for. The banlist is there to retain balance in the format and create a healthy enviroment. Can anyone honestly tell me Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx are creating unbalanced unhealthy games? Or are they just good cards that honestly are quite easily dealt with?
Experimental Kraj
They're good cards that might be slightly overpowered in a format where they can be easily abused. They also provide an easy foothold during construction for veterans and scrubs alike. They are not game ending, game warping, or stronger than Superman on Green Latern-powered ultra crack.
That about sums it up.
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QFT. Expectations poke holes in player logic, and bias damns opinions into kids slinging insults at one another on an open forum. Casual MTG has no laws-there are tons of ways to play, and again, there's nothing stopping people from crafting their own boarders within their playgroup. EDH can be as silly and broken or as restricted as players want. Yet, players feel entitled to make EVERYONE play their way.
The ego on the individuals here and abroad is astounding.
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Actual Truth:
I actually have seen Sphinx once in a multiplayer game....and then I killed it, and exiled it before shenanigans occurred.
PrimeTime is a very,very,very bad offender, and when i kill one, i go reanimate my opponents. (I dont own any titans ;D) I hardly see it in 2 of my playgroups because they're currently using it for Standard, and we're all a bit strapped for cash, so there's little overlap in cards.
I'm with SurgingChaos' tag under his Avatar, #OccupyKokusho
I'll reiterate what I said earlier though, is it worth it to go Occupy the "main" forums to plead our case? I understand that MTGS is the largest community for EDH period, and the most advanced, but nothing will change if we dont go over there. We ALL know the RC's general disdain for the forum, and we saw what happened when Sheldon poked his head in last summer and it was ripped off by some of the less considerate members.
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Is there plenty of creature removal in EDH? Yes
They are all incredibly amazing, but seeing as they have never won me a game, I wouldnt say ban them. I have comboed with Prime Time on more than one occasion, but it doesnt make it ban worthy.
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Same. Just last night in fact I let a friend play with my Damia deck, and he threw out a non-entwined Tooth and Nail on T5 (thanks Sol Ring) and put Ulamog and Prime Time into play from his hand. And he had a Lightning Greaves to attack with Ulamog right away and blow away all my lands. I scooped, and the rest of the table soon followed.
Why do I play with these cards?! Lol. Granted games like that are rare but even so. They DO happen, and that is something to look at.
Some would argue it was Sol Ring's fault but whatever.
Best scenario is when facing you and an opposing Sphinxes "Draw-battle" while the rest of the board watch in horror. Why yes, you go ahead draw 2 to my 1 then I'll draw 4, then you draw 8, then I draw 16, etc. Obviously, I won that turn with the needed cards.
Yeah, this is my big complaint with Sphinx, but my playgroup has agreed to a "gentleman's agreement" in which Sphinxes cannot draw off of each others' draws. This turns it to merely "really good" rather than "game-endingly stupid" in the all-too-common case of double-sphinx.
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That being said, in no way should they be banned (and the same about Koko). I think more people should try playing without them though.
I'd be fine either way, just as long as it's all or nothing.
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