No one said it was bad though, we just said it does the same thing any infinite combo already does. People are talking about it like it's the greatest card ever printed, and I think that's quite the stretch. If your meta doesn't allow infinite combos then I'm sure it's amazing. You're bringing a gun to a knife fight. In a meta that does allow infinite combos it's much less impressive.
Edit: Basically what I'm saying is I think the people calling for it to be banned are out of their minds. It's no Griselbrand.
No one said it was bad though, we just said it does the same thing any infinite combo already does. People are talking about it like it's the greatest card ever printed, and I think that's quite the stretch. If your meta doesn't allow infinite combos then I'm sure it's amazing. You're bringing a gun to a knife fight. In a meta that does allow infinite combos it's much less impressive.
It's actually slightly worse than infinite mana, but most infinite mana combos can be seen coming a mile away.
I can see this card being amazing in other formats, such as legacy, where you can have 4x show and tell and 4x omniscience in your deck. But in EDH I think its far from scary, aside from jhoira decks perhaps.
Blue has to reach 10 mana and blue sucks for ramping. Tooth and nail needs 9 mana and green is amazing for ramping. When I think of all the great blue edh decks out there, they typically win WAY before they reach ten mana, and often before they even reach half that number.
Genesis Wave not a problem?
Reveal top 30 cards, play Akroma's Memorial and win.
That's what it usually does.
As far as I can remember, we never recurred or copied it.
Maybe it's just meta-dependant, like our yjtrr mono-G decks that don't even have to run tons of spells and had Primal Surge as an auto-include.
And what happened that he was able to Wave for 30? That seems outrageous, and in that kind of set up, it should probably be a win anyways.
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Decks: WUG Jenara, Asura of War WR Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas WU Lavinia of the Tenth UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus
So no one really claims its bad. Basically, you need to build around it sort of like Dream Halls and Mind Over Matter. These are almost auto-wins since most blue combo-control decks are built to protect and set up their combo. However, they can be stopped by who gets their combo out faster.
For me I've just sticked it into my Bant Enchantress Deck and went 2-2 without having it built around it (i.e. playing it fairly) to support comboing out.
As for infinite mana combos, some are very obvious to see yet impossible to stop sometimes. For example, Phyrexian Altar activations can't be responded to. Others are pretty easy to stop. However stopping one usually means the other combo player wins.
it's certainly strong. but the only deck i play which could use it is my Oona combo/control, i've tested it since i got one at pre-release playing as much as i can (we had an EDH marathon after pre-release because we all got what we wanted to try) but I find it cuts the consistency of my deck a lot.
put simply, in a very streamlined combo/control deck that already goes off pretty quickly and is probably the strongest deck in our group, it doesn't do much. by the time i can play it, i can go off and win anyway with infinite mana, and i tried it with show and tell and it doesn't enable me to go off any sooner than i'd be able to anyway so it's getting cut for good.
overall, meh, it's strong. i might test it in my combo/control momir build, but again, my lists are very tight that taking anything out hurts consistency so for me, in my group, in my decks, it's not a star.
if infinite combos were banned i could see how it'd be very strong.
I said this in another thread about deadeye getting banned - not everything needs to be, especially in EDH, in fact, statistically, the number of cards that need banning is tiny.
Accoring to the Wiki there are 11750 unique cards. EDH has 33 banned cards. Meaning that 0.28% of all cards are banned. That means that only 1 format which currently has a banned list has fewer banned cards - Vintage. There's a reason for that.
In legacy, you have X answers to their card. They have the card (which takes one of your answers) plus their Y answers in a 60 card deck. You can run 4 of cards, ergo, you answer the card and they still have their answers, plus more of the card you answered.
In EDH, its singleton. You've got 1 omnicience in 99 cards, not 1 in 15 like you could in another constructed format.
Consider that I can cast omnicience for 10 mana that doesn't interact with the genesis wave in my hand. So for that 10 mana I get an enchantment. Alternatively, I cast tooth and nail for 9 mana. I find palinchron and vorinclex. I now have functionally the same mana, except that I can cast the genesis wave. Or I can find Kiki Jiki and Deciever Exarch and go off, Black Mikaeus + Triskelion.
Its strong, but no more than many other cards that have been floating around for years.
It doesn't matter if there's an answer to it or if the card has a weakness. Balance is irrelevant in EDH. Who cares if it doesn't interact with genesis wave? Who even cares about palinchron, you cast this card and literally just win with time walk effects and draw spells (you're in blue...). You can show and tell this thing easily, tutor for the show and tell easily, play a rector, or wrath the board to kill the rector. Those are the busted ways to break this card. Even if you slow roll the game and cast it... you win. Take as many turns as you want, draw cards because drawing cards is good. You only need a draw spell in your had and tada! You win!
Honestly, the problem here is Consecrated Sphinx + draw 7's. You could just as easily have played your ridiculous number of spells with Dream Halls or one of a thousand Palinchron infinite mana combos.
No you really can't. Dream halls is crap, utter poop compared to this thing. First off, it gives your opponents the ability as well. Read that again YOUR OPPONENTS GET THE ABILITY AS WELL. Dream halls has a cost to use the ability and that cost has a restriction. Dream halls requires a large amount of cards to use effectively. For every card you cast, you need another one in your hand that shares a color. It effectively reduces your hand size by half. The only good thing dream halls is good for is casting omniscience to win the game.
Well then of course you would sing the praises of Omniscience, since it allows you to do what Infinite Combos do (for the most part), but at a higher initial casting cost.
You should try testing it out in a more cutthroat environment.
Turn 3 show and tell, what's that no one has removal, ok... well you guys can get a drink i'm going to be taking turns until i'm bored.
So no one really claims its bad. Basically, you need to build around it sort of like Dream Halls and Mind Over Matter. These are almost auto-wins since most blue combo-control decks are built to protect and set up their combo. However, they can be stopped by who gets their combo out faster.
For me I've just sticked it into my Bant Enchantress Deck and went 2-2 without having it built around it (i.e. playing it fairly) to support comboing out.
As for infinite mana combos, some are very obvious to see yet impossible to stop sometimes. For example, Phyrexian Altar activations can't be responded to. Others are pretty easy to stop. However stopping one usually means the other combo player wins.
Build around it? Why would you build around it? All you have to do is put it in your deck and it breaks everything except for lands, but islands are busted enough anyway. I'm fully expecting worldfire to get banned, but omniscience and deadeye will not, which is messed up, because they will lead to so many non interactive game states.
These cards are better than sundering titan and are just as obnoxious. Watching a player take infinite turns or just have a 45 min turn or flicker primeval titan or mystic snake for 2 mana is going to get so old and frankly will probably be some of the worst memorable games. After all, the RC's goal (at least this month) is to create fun memorable games. Sundering titan did do this, and omniscience doesn't do this and has no legitimate use outside of giving the caster a 50 min ******** session. I actually used this card to create an infinite bounce loop with man o war and clone. I took an hour turn because i wasn't sure what to do, after an hour, I cast time stretch. This card doesn't just enable wins, it enables a couple billion ways to grief the table.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
:') Calm down, guy.
But tell me: Infinite turns and 30 cards you draw? How? Are you building your entire deck around one enchantment? Do you have any idea how hard you will lose if you don't get it?
That will also happen with Dream Halls, a good player with a good deck can abuse Dream Halls as easily (of not better) than Omniscience.
Oh yes, your opponents can also cast stuff for free.
That does not matter, you are going to win anyway!
:') Calm down, guy.
But tell me: Infinite turns and 30 cards you draw? How? Are you building your entire deck around one enchantment? Do you have any idea how hard you will lose if you don't get it?
That will also happen with Dream Halls, a good player with a good deck can abuse Dream Halls as easily (of not better) than Omniscience.
Oh yes, your opponents can also cast stuff for free.
That does not matter, you are going to win anyway!
No, I'm not building around it. The most I would ever build around is rector. The rest are simply powerful cards that are used on their own and don't need omniscience to be good. That would not happen with dream halls. You simply aren't reading the card if you think dream halls = Omniscience. Dream halls is that much harder to pull off because you have to use resources (cards) to cast your spells. If i don't draw the enchantment... I win another way... with cards that are strong on their own.... You don't need to build around omniscience, just put it in your deck. You are not listening, you keep saying dream halls = omniscience and you assume I'm building around omniscience.... I'm not building around it, it's another wincon, I don't need it. If I draw into it, I win, if i draw into a rector I win, if I have that and show and tell in hand... I win. It's that simple. Are you even reading my posts? You always reply with me building around it and stating dream halls and omniscience are the same thing.
The most you ever need is rector and a wrath or show and tell... that's it, that's all you have to do to build around it.
Wait I'm wrong, I did build around omniscience, I have cards that draw cards........
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
If you can win off whats in your hand that turn with Omniscience, then you can probably just as easily win with Dream Halls with whats in your hand a few turns earlier.
No, I'm not building around it. The most I would ever build around is rector. The rest are simply powerful cards that are used on their own and don't need omniscience to be good. That would not happen with dream halls.
Not in your deck.
The point is that Dream Halls is just as abusable in the right deck.
But what do you want now?
Do you want the card banned?
While I personally haven't tested omniscience I can definitely see the ability to abuse it. However we shouldn't get ban happy due to the potential of a card without it seeing a good amount of time in the format.
Yes, they can cast stuff for free,but:
1)Stuff to cast-If they cast omniscience and it resolves, take a look at their hand. How many cards do they have in it? What cards do you have? What about your other opponents? What does the board look like? How many of their lands are tapped vs. their opponents? Since cards like mind spring are unaffected by omniscience (X is always 0) and you can't transmute a card like muddle the mixture for it anyway (transmute is an activated ability ergo not affected by omniscience) players will have to rely on older keep-drawing infinities already in the game. Although normal tutors will be the new enablers for omniscience.
2)their spells are still open for disruption - they can cast stuff for free, but it can still be countered.
3)Their permanents are still open for disruption - This is where good ol' krosan grip comes into play nicely, especially if the opponent is tapped out for playing omniscience.
5) Stop what is in their hand/draw enablers - A tip on the rules: Any cost that is X is equal to 0. Omniscience only works on things in their hand so flashback and friends don't get the benefit. Anything on the field doesn't get the benefit. In order to benefit the most from it, they would need a full hand or something that gives them that. Deny them that.
6) EDH Logic - Its a four person game, with the potential to bring 5 colors and different playstyles and a ton of archtypes to the table. Work with the other players at the board. If omniscience resolves and you all lose to it, discuss what went wrong. Ask why players made their moves why they thought it was a right decision. Help others understand threat assessment, blue has a really tricky way of sneaking up on new players since a cryptic command is not near as intimidating on the surface as a primaeval titan or an austere command.
I don't see how Omniscience is any more of a problem than any of the infinite mana combos out there. It is actually less of a problem with the restrictions it has.
I don't see how Omniscience is any more of a problem than any of the infinite mana combos out there. It is actually less of a problem with the restrictions it has.
Notice the only ones who think Omniscience isn't broken are the guys who run strictly cut-throat combo decks, built specifically with infinite combos in mind.
News flash: highly competitive combo decks ( read: little to no interaction with other players, winning as fast as possible at any cost, avoiding politics because your deck is capable of OHKOing everyone simultaneously) generally don't make the game fun. Before you fall back on your last defense, the "fun is subjective, therefore I win the argument" bull****, I'll point you to the banlist. What if Sway of the Stars is fun for me? What is Time Walk is fun for me? Why can't I use Staff of Domination? If everything is subjective and groups should make their own banlist, why have a universal banlist? Because some things are so busted that they need to be banned, regardless of your subjective views. You can make a convincing argument for virtually anything. But some things just need that banhammer regardless of your debating skill. In order to see what needs to be banned, look to real games and real consequences. Did the card ruin the games where it was played? How do people feel playing it, or playing against it? Yes, these views are subjective too. But banlists don't carefully balance everyone's opinions. If it ruins games for enough people consistently, it should be banned. If a card is banned, there's plenty of alternatives that are begging to be used, but aren't seen currently because they're second best.
EDH should be about giving everyone an enjoyable game. Wizards may have left authority to the RC, but look at the commander sets. The cards printed with commander in mind indirectly show how Wizards views EDH. Fun. Cards that benefit everyone, but potentially benefit you more (reminds me of Dream Halls). Cards that encourage interaction, politics, and interesting games. Banlists need to take everyone into consideration, which includes groups and games that are not founded and centered on winning the game as fast as possible. Maybe - MAYBE - Omniscience won't make it into your neckbeard decks because it's 10 mana. But outside that stifling environment it's busted.
Yes EDH exists outside your realm of RNG racing with combo decks. Shocking I know. But consider this: unless we're all running combo decks, Omniscience is broken beyond hope. As some have said, it's basically infinite mana without the combo. This level of game-ending power is enough to see it banned, and looking at it from this perspective I now think it should be.
What is it to you? I thought that Omniscience was too expensive for your combos? And if so, why would you care if it's banned?
The banlist, at the end of the day, is subjective - just like your concept of fun. The RC makes calculated judgments, but they are not omniscient nor infallible. Not every card that should be on the banlist is there at the moment. This is one of those cards. The cards that need to be banned are cards that are fundamentally flawed in EDH BECAUSE they make the game unenjoyablein the environments that they are used in. Perhaps Omniscience won't be a problem in the neckbeard circles, but outside of combo-driven racing games, it's making games consistently miserable. It's not all about power-level, which is probably another shocking concept to some. Unlike Griselbrand, Sundering Titan wasn't banned because it was too strong. It simply made the game too miserable for people who ran basic lands, who couldn't afford the neckbeard, alpha dual lands. Omniscience and Worldfire are two cards that promote the same fundamental problem as Sundering Titan: ruining games. An intelligently designed deck consistently wins the game the same turn Omniscience is dropped, and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. Worldfire makes everything that happened previous to it resolving completely obsolete, and that's directly contrary to the spirit of EDH.
The last thing I want to say is that Dream Halls is a much more balanced card outside the neckbearder decks. It is inherent card disadvantage, and your opponents can use it too. Perhaps Dream Halls is that 5 mana combo enabler which negates its downside by winning the game for you that turn. Otherwise, it's a poor man's Omniscience.
What in my post gave you the idea that I run cutthroat combo decks?
I never said infinite combos and such aren't a problem, just that Omniscience doesn't make that big of an impact since these combos already exist and actually do the job better.
Seriously, just cool it with your crusade. The discussion is about the card, not casual vs competitive commander.
Perhaps Omniscience won't be a problem in the neckbeard circles, but outside of combo-driven racing games, it's making games consistently miserable.
But Omniscience is a combo if you use it like that.
If you don't want people to play combo, you shouldn't let them play this enchantment either.
There are other combo's besides infinite stuff!
I never said infinite combos and such aren't a problem, just that Omniscience doesn't make that big of an impact since these combos already exist and actually do the job better.
This is the bottom line. Not that I think that kid, Jinnobi, is going to pay attention to this fact or even chill out on his 'crusade'. He has already admitted to knowing how to troll.
Simple question:
What purpose does omniscience serve other to enable things that really are better off not enabled so easily.
Rhetorical answer:
Nothing.
There is no reason for this card to exist in edh because it does nothing but become an enabler for insta-win combos; there are too many of these already, why does another one need to exist?
This is the bottom line. Not that I think that kid, Jinnobi, is going to pay attention to this fact or even chill out on his 'crusade'. He has already admitted to knowing how to troll.
The bottom line was already addressed by my post. You've contributed nothing and therefore your opinion can be dismissed as nothing.
I never said infinite combos and such aren't a problem, just that Omniscience doesn't make that big of an impact since these combos already exist and actually do the job better.
Outside of a combo-centric environment, this card reintroduced something almost as powerful, but not the same thing. I've already talked about this in-depth in my previous post, so instead of labeling a wall of text and ignoring everything I said, why don't you read it?
Simple question:
What purpose does omniscience serve other to enable things that really are better off not enabled so easily.
Rhetorical answer:
Nothing.
There is no reason for this card to exist in edh because it does nothing but become an enabler for insta-win combos; there are too many of these already, why does another one need to exist?
Your reasoning is why it should NOT be banned. Because there are so many insta-win combos 1 more (that is a useless card in a vacuum) can not hurt the game. You can't yell "ban omniscience" yet have TnN, Gen Wave, Insurrec, ect...
Both sides of this debate need to calm down. Let's keep discussion to opinions and arguments on the card and away from the people making them. I think there can be good discussion here, but I'm closing the thread if we can't be polite while having it.
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Edit: Basically what I'm saying is I think the people calling for it to be banned are out of their minds. It's no Griselbrand.
It's actually slightly worse than infinite mana, but most infinite mana combos can be seen coming a mile away.
Blue has to reach 10 mana and blue sucks for ramping. Tooth and nail needs 9 mana and green is amazing for ramping. When I think of all the great blue edh decks out there, they typically win WAY before they reach ten mana, and often before they even reach half that number.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
And what happened that he was able to Wave for 30? That seems outrageous, and in that kind of set up, it should probably be a win anyways.
Decks:
WUG Jenara, Asura of War
WR Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
WU Lavinia of the Tenth
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus
For me I've just sticked it into my Bant Enchantress Deck and went 2-2 without having it built around it (i.e. playing it fairly) to support comboing out.
As for infinite mana combos, some are very obvious to see yet impossible to stop sometimes. For example, Phyrexian Altar activations can't be responded to. Others are pretty easy to stop. However stopping one usually means the other combo player wins.
This is the quickest way I've found to get it out on turn 3.
turn 1: land, sol ring, temporal aperture
turn 2: land, thran turbine
turn 3: land, tutor (enlightened tutor, vampiric tutor, sterling grove), activate temporal aperture
UTeferi, Mage of ZhalfirU
xKarn, Silver Golemx
WUBRGSliver OverlordWUBRG
UBCircu, Dimir LobotomistUB
UMistform UltimusU
Thurn 1v1
Pauper EDH
Sage of Fables
Nivix Guildmage
Agent of Masks
Airdrop Condor
Imperious Perfect
Selesnya Guildmage
Orzhov Guildmage
Jund Battlemage
Standard
Modern
Booby Trap
Disciple Tinkets
Seems legit.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
put simply, in a very streamlined combo/control deck that already goes off pretty quickly and is probably the strongest deck in our group, it doesn't do much. by the time i can play it, i can go off and win anyway with infinite mana, and i tried it with show and tell and it doesn't enable me to go off any sooner than i'd be able to anyway so it's getting cut for good.
overall, meh, it's strong. i might test it in my combo/control momir build, but again, my lists are very tight that taking anything out hurts consistency so for me, in my group, in my decks, it's not a star.
if infinite combos were banned i could see how it'd be very strong.
It doesn't matter if there's an answer to it or if the card has a weakness. Balance is irrelevant in EDH. Who cares if it doesn't interact with genesis wave? Who even cares about palinchron, you cast this card and literally just win with time walk effects and draw spells (you're in blue...). You can show and tell this thing easily, tutor for the show and tell easily, play a rector, or wrath the board to kill the rector. Those are the busted ways to break this card. Even if you slow roll the game and cast it... you win. Take as many turns as you want, draw cards because drawing cards is good. You only need a draw spell in your had and tada! You win!
No you really can't. Dream halls is crap, utter poop compared to this thing. First off, it gives your opponents the ability as well. Read that again YOUR OPPONENTS GET THE ABILITY AS WELL. Dream halls has a cost to use the ability and that cost has a restriction. Dream halls requires a large amount of cards to use effectively. For every card you cast, you need another one in your hand that shares a color. It effectively reduces your hand size by half. The only good thing dream halls is good for is casting omniscience to win the game.
Turn 3 show and tell, what's that no one has removal, ok... well you guys can get a drink i'm going to be taking turns until i'm bored.
Build around it? Why would you build around it? All you have to do is put it in your deck and it breaks everything except for lands, but islands are busted enough anyway. I'm fully expecting worldfire to get banned, but omniscience and deadeye will not, which is messed up, because they will lead to so many non interactive game states.
These cards are better than sundering titan and are just as obnoxious. Watching a player take infinite turns or just have a 45 min turn or flicker primeval titan or mystic snake for 2 mana is going to get so old and frankly will probably be some of the worst memorable games. After all, the RC's goal (at least this month) is to create fun memorable games. Sundering titan did do this, and omniscience doesn't do this and has no legitimate use outside of giving the caster a 50 min ******** session. I actually used this card to create an infinite bounce loop with man o war and clone. I took an hour turn because i wasn't sure what to do, after an hour, I cast time stretch. This card doesn't just enable wins, it enables a couple billion ways to grief the table.
But tell me: Infinite turns and 30 cards you draw? How? Are you building your entire deck around one enchantment? Do you have any idea how hard you will lose if you don't get it?
That will also happen with Dream Halls, a good player with a good deck can abuse Dream Halls as easily (of not better) than Omniscience.
Oh yes, your opponents can also cast stuff for free.
That does not matter, you are going to win anyway!
No, I'm not building around it. The most I would ever build around is rector. The rest are simply powerful cards that are used on their own and don't need omniscience to be good. That would not happen with dream halls. You simply aren't reading the card if you think dream halls = Omniscience. Dream halls is that much harder to pull off because you have to use resources (cards) to cast your spells. If i don't draw the enchantment... I win another way... with cards that are strong on their own.... You don't need to build around omniscience, just put it in your deck. You are not listening, you keep saying dream halls = omniscience and you assume I'm building around omniscience.... I'm not building around it, it's another wincon, I don't need it. If I draw into it, I win, if i draw into a rector I win, if I have that and show and tell in hand... I win. It's that simple. Are you even reading my posts? You always reply with me building around it and stating dream halls and omniscience are the same thing.
The most you ever need is rector and a wrath or show and tell... that's it, that's all you have to do to build around it.
Wait I'm wrong, I did build around omniscience, I have cards that draw cards........
Someone is miss quoting.....
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Not in your deck.
The point is that Dream Halls is just as abusable in the right deck.
But what do you want now?
Do you want the card banned?
Yes, they can cast stuff for free,but:
1)Stuff to cast-If they cast omniscience and it resolves, take a look at their hand. How many cards do they have in it? What cards do you have? What about your other opponents? What does the board look like? How many of their lands are tapped vs. their opponents? Since cards like mind spring are unaffected by omniscience (X is always 0) and you can't transmute a card like muddle the mixture for it anyway (transmute is an activated ability ergo not affected by omniscience) players will have to rely on older keep-drawing infinities already in the game. Although normal tutors will be the new enablers for omniscience.
2)their spells are still open for disruption - they can cast stuff for free, but it can still be countered.
3)Their permanents are still open for disruption - This is where good ol' krosan grip comes into play nicely, especially if the opponent is tapped out for playing omniscience.
4)An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure - Unless the omniscience player is running u/g, and can hardcast it off of 10 basic lands, odds are they are "cheating" the mana in through doublers like extraplanar lens, gauntlet of power, caged sun or a cabal coffer like effect such as gaea's cradle or serra's sanctum. Identify these problems and destroy them. Standard is ripe with artifact hate and non-basic land destruction such as ghost quarters. Further back and cheaper we have tectonic edge and strip mine. Red has a ton of ways to get rid of non-basic lands besides magus of the moon/blood moon[/CARD such as ruination.
5) Stop what is in their hand/draw enablers - A tip on the rules: Any cost that is X is equal to 0. Omniscience only works on things in their hand so flashback and friends don't get the benefit. Anything on the field doesn't get the benefit. In order to benefit the most from it, they would need a full hand or something that gives them that. Deny them that.
6) EDH Logic - Its a four person game, with the potential to bring 5 colors and different playstyles and a ton of archtypes to the table. Work with the other players at the board. If omniscience resolves and you all lose to it, discuss what went wrong. Ask why players made their moves why they thought it was a right decision. Help others understand threat assessment, blue has a really tricky way of sneaking up on new players since a cryptic command is not near as intimidating on the surface as a primaeval titan or an austere command.
Yep, that's how you build around Dream Halls as well...
Personally, I think it's a lot of fun. I wanna build an Arcanis the Omnipotent deck with it just for flavor's sake.
Notice the only ones who think Omniscience isn't broken are the guys who run strictly cut-throat combo decks, built specifically with infinite combos in mind.
News flash: highly competitive combo decks ( read: little to no interaction with other players, winning as fast as possible at any cost, avoiding politics because your deck is capable of OHKOing everyone simultaneously) generally don't make the game fun. Before you fall back on your last defense, the "fun is subjective, therefore I win the argument" bull****, I'll point you to the banlist. What if Sway of the Stars is fun for me? What is Time Walk is fun for me? Why can't I use Staff of Domination? If everything is subjective and groups should make their own banlist, why have a universal banlist? Because some things are so busted that they need to be banned, regardless of your subjective views. You can make a convincing argument for virtually anything. But some things just need that banhammer regardless of your debating skill. In order to see what needs to be banned, look to real games and real consequences. Did the card ruin the games where it was played? How do people feel playing it, or playing against it? Yes, these views are subjective too. But banlists don't carefully balance everyone's opinions. If it ruins games for enough people consistently, it should be banned. If a card is banned, there's plenty of alternatives that are begging to be used, but aren't seen currently because they're second best.
EDH should be about giving everyone an enjoyable game. Wizards may have left authority to the RC, but look at the commander sets. The cards printed with commander in mind indirectly show how Wizards views EDH. Fun. Cards that benefit everyone, but potentially benefit you more (reminds me of Dream Halls). Cards that encourage interaction, politics, and interesting games. Banlists need to take everyone into consideration, which includes groups and games that are not founded and centered on winning the game as fast as possible. Maybe - MAYBE - Omniscience won't make it into your neckbeard decks because it's 10 mana. But outside that stifling environment it's busted.
Yes EDH exists outside your realm of RNG racing with combo decks. Shocking I know. But consider this: unless we're all running combo decks, Omniscience is broken beyond hope. As some have said, it's basically infinite mana without the combo. This level of game-ending power is enough to see it banned, and looking at it from this perspective I now think it should be.
What is it to you? I thought that Omniscience was too expensive for your combos? And if so, why would you care if it's banned?
The banlist, at the end of the day, is subjective - just like your concept of fun. The RC makes calculated judgments, but they are not omniscient nor infallible. Not every card that should be on the banlist is there at the moment. This is one of those cards. The cards that need to be banned are cards that are fundamentally flawed in EDH BECAUSE they make the game unenjoyable in the environments that they are used in. Perhaps Omniscience won't be a problem in the neckbeard circles, but outside of combo-driven racing games, it's making games consistently miserable. It's not all about power-level, which is probably another shocking concept to some. Unlike Griselbrand, Sundering Titan wasn't banned because it was too strong. It simply made the game too miserable for people who ran basic lands, who couldn't afford the neckbeard, alpha dual lands. Omniscience and Worldfire are two cards that promote the same fundamental problem as Sundering Titan: ruining games. An intelligently designed deck consistently wins the game the same turn Omniscience is dropped, and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. Worldfire makes everything that happened previous to it resolving completely obsolete, and that's directly contrary to the spirit of EDH.
The last thing I want to say is that Dream Halls is a much more balanced card outside the neckbearder decks. It is inherent card disadvantage, and your opponents can use it too. Perhaps Dream Halls is that 5 mana combo enabler which negates its downside by winning the game for you that turn. Otherwise, it's a poor man's Omniscience.
What in my post gave you the idea that I run cutthroat combo decks?
I never said infinite combos and such aren't a problem, just that Omniscience doesn't make that big of an impact since these combos already exist and actually do the job better.
Seriously, just cool it with your crusade. The discussion is about the card, not casual vs competitive commander.
But Omniscience is a combo if you use it like that.
If you don't want people to play combo, you shouldn't let them play this enchantment either.
There are other combo's besides infinite stuff!
This is the bottom line. Not that I think that kid, Jinnobi, is going to pay attention to this fact or even chill out on his 'crusade'. He has already admitted to knowing how to troll.
The Commandments of EDH
What purpose does omniscience serve other to enable things that really are better off not enabled so easily.
Rhetorical answer:
Nothing.
There is no reason for this card to exist in edh because it does nothing but become an enabler for insta-win combos; there are too many of these already, why does another one need to exist?
The bottom line was already addressed by my post. You've contributed nothing and therefore your opinion can be dismissed as nothing.
Outside of a combo-centric environment, this card reintroduced something almost as powerful, but not the same thing. I've already talked about this in-depth in my previous post, so instead of labeling a wall of text and ignoring everything I said, why don't you read it?
Your reasoning is why it should NOT be banned. Because there are so many insta-win combos 1 more (that is a useless card in a vacuum) can not hurt the game. You can't yell "ban omniscience" yet have TnN, Gen Wave, Insurrec, ect...
10 mana spells win games. So?
Also, I can't wait to see what the degenerate folks on Cockatrice do with this.
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