For those of you who do not know, Death and Taxes is a Legacy deck revolving around small white utility creatures and resource denial to create overwhelming tempo and card advantage. A better explanation can be found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057
Can a similar strategy be done in EDH?
My initial thought was to go with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as the general, however, after further thought, it is my belief that a second color is necessary to fill the gaps that occur in a 100 card highlander format. Thus, I went with Gaddock Teeg as he is cheap and helps protect against wraths.
I have a basic decklist here (http://essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=919007) but it currently just feels like it is just G/W good stuff with a dash of taxing effects. I would love to get some discussion going as to how best to implement this strategy (or if it is even possible to implement this strategy) in this format.
One of my friends built a very potent Rasputin Dreamweaver deck in the past that has the Death and Taxes feel to it. It runs fairly heavy control and disruption, and has interesting blink effects mostly through Astral Slide. That being said, blink is probably the correct way of trying to incorperate Death and Taxes into EDH. Astral Slide gives your ETB creatures much more abuse, and allows you to dig further into the deck. Rasputin himself is also a mana source that furthers your cause, and blinking him is also great fun. Just my 2 cents.
Prison/taxing strategies are some of the more popular griefing decks in the format. While Gaddock Teeg may be interesting, the popular one is Grand Arbiter, as he taxes your opponents' stuff while making your non-weenies into weenie-costed.
Don't expect too much love from your opponents with either, though.
Prison/taxing strategies are some of the more popular griefing decks in the format. While Gaddock Teeg may be interesting, the popular one is Grand Arbiter, as he taxes your opponents' stuff while making your non-weenies into weenie-costed.
Don't expect too much love from your opponents with either, though.
Is Death and Taxes really considered a Prison strategy? I always thought Staxx was the main culprit in that regard, and Staxx is not a deck I want to play. This is one reason I went with Teeg instead of GAAIV as I didn't want it to be a control deck in the "blue" sense of the word.
Is Death and Taxes really considered a Prison strategy? I always thought Staxx was the main culprit in that regard, and Staxx is not a deck I want to play. This is one reason I went with Teeg instead of GAAIV as I didn't want it to be a control deck in the "blue" sense of the word.
D&T is not as much prison as taxing, however it is better able to use the limited amount of taxing effects in the format (4-ofs, 60 cards). It's also very tempo-based and aggression-based, which is hard to translate into a 40-life multiplayer format. So, I usually combine the elements so there can be some sense of redundancy.
Being someone that played Death and Taxes in legacy the big things it had going for it in legacy is mana denial and the ability to control the game just long enough to seal the deal. Games that go long (especially against control decks) never worked out well for death and taxes. I am not sure the same principles of the style of play can transfer well to EDH.
I think the biggest issue with Death & Taxes in EDH is a matter of consistency. Even with as much redundancy as you can muster, the strategy still won't "go off" as often as it does in Legacy.
If you want the D&T strategy as more of a sub-theme, I'd say go for it -- basing the entire deck around it probably won't work well, however. Personally, I think one of the biggest losses for it in EDH is the lack of Karakas for easily reusing Mangara of Corondor.
My Thalia deck shares some elements with it. I agree that a direct translation is either difficult or impossible due to the nature of the format, but I've had some success with what basically amounts to a tax heavy WW deck. You might be able to get some ideas of where you would like to go from it, though it's still far from an optimal decklist.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
My Thalia deck shares some elements with it. I agree that a direct translation is either difficult or impossible due to the nature of the format, but I've had some success with what basically amounts to a tax heavy WW deck. You might be able to get some ideas of where you would like to go from it, though it's still far from an optimal decklist.
I like the decklist Weebos. You sure it wouldn't benefit from a splash though? The reason I went with Teeg is because he protects against Wraths, something that can really mess the deck up. Additionally, green gives some needed card draw to make it through the inevitable end game, ramp so that the land denial is felt more, and more destruction effects (meaning acidic slime, qasali pridemage, wickerbough elder, etc.).
I do understand that Death and Taxes could never be truly realized in this format, but I feel like W/x resource denial/weenie may still be a viable strategy. I still think pure white doesn't work. The question for me is which color to splash. Red gives very little other than more land destruction. Black doesn't have the proper generals to do it. Blue has GAAIV, but I find that he is both a little on the expensive side, and prompts a different style of deck (namely Staxx or super control, not D&T style weenie shenanigans). This leaves Green and therefore Teeg. Please argue against me, it's the best way to generate any sort of sound concepts.
I like the decklist Weebos. You sure it wouldn't benefit from a splash though? The reason I went with Teeg is because he protects against Wraths, something that can really mess the deck up. Additionally, green gives some needed card draw to make it through the inevitable end game, ramp so that the land denial is felt more, and more destruction effects (meaning acidic slime, qasali pridemage, wickerbough elder, etc.).
I do understand that Death and Taxes could never be truly realized in this format, but I feel like W/x resource denial/weenie may still be a viable strategy. I still think pure white doesn't work. The question for me is which color to splash. Red gives very little other than more land destruction. Black doesn't have the proper generals to do it. Blue has GAAIV, but I find that he is both a little on the expensive side, and prompts a different style of deck (namely Staxx or super control, not D&T style weenie shenanigans). This leaves Green and therefore Teeg. Please argue against me, it's the best way to generate any sort of sound concepts.
Why can't GAAIV be a D&T commander? He's a Sphere of Resistance that not only doesn't effect your spells, but makes them cost 1-2 less, for just one more mana. You're splashing green for card advantage? Blue does that in spades. Blue gives you a lot more advantages than green, and the only real advantage w/Teeg is that he stops your opponent with wrath effects.
GAAIV is more used for Staxx than D&T. This is true. But Staxx uses a lot of the same elements as D&T (Thorn, Sphere, etc.) and has a lot more reach in the format. Maybe Teeg would let you be more D&T because he would force you to not go Staxx, but that's the only real reason I see him being that much better.
Why can't GAAIV be a D&T commander? He's a Sphere of Resistance that not only doesn't effect your spells, but makes them cost 1-2 less, for just one more mana. You're splashing green for card advantage? Blue does that in spades. Blue gives you a lot more advantages than green, and the only real advantage w/Teeg is that he stops your opponent with wrath effects.
GAAIV is more used for Staxx than D&T. This is true. But Staxx uses a lot of the same elements as D&T (Thorn, Sphere, etc.) and has a lot more reach in the format. Maybe Teeg would let you be more D&T because he would force you to not go Staxx, but that's the only real reason I see him being that much better.
What decent D&T creatures does blue bring though? The ones that are decent are more controlling and less able to bring the beatdown that D&T needs (I mean D&T does play Serra Avenger for a reason). Remember too that most taxing effects are noncreature taxing (Glowrider, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thorn of Amethyst), so running the blue splash would mean avoiding some great blue cards as they would not be synergistic to the strategy. I like me some GAAIV, but I am still not sold on it being the best general for such a strategy. What sort of decklist would you make if you did use GAAIV?
I like the decklist Weebos. You sure it wouldn't benefit from a splash though? The reason I went with Teeg is because he protects against Wraths, something that can really mess the deck up. Additionally, green gives some needed card draw to make it through the inevitable end game, ramp so that the land denial is felt more, and more destruction effects (meaning acidic slime, qasali pridemage, wickerbough elder, etc).
Yes, it would benefit from a splash. There are very few edh decks that couldn't be improved with the addition of another color. Mine was attempting to buld around Thalia. I'm posting it here not to try and convince you to play Thalia, though I have been enjoying the deck with her at the helm, but to give you some ideas of possible inclusions in your own list. There's been a fair amount of discussion on the list, so it should help you find the aggressive and disruptive creatures you want to run in a deck with a similar strategy.
For what you're talking about, either R or G makes the most sense. I wouldn't discount R quite yet, because there are a few creatures with LD stapled on, and that seems desirable here. Jor Kadeen isn't as on theme as Teeg, but he could speed up your clock to the point where fast disruptive aggro is much more likely to work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Wow, I totally forgot about the Rishadan guys. I am totally leaning back towards blue now :-D.
Well how about we make a list of auto include for each color? I will start (since white is going to be the base regardless, any multicolored cards will be white):
I'd be wary about things like Invoke Prejudice that are super heavy on colored mana and things like Squeeze and the aforementioned Invoke Prejudice that cost a significant amount without really advancing your board presence. They're worthwhile cards, but the way I'm reading into what you want here is a heavily white deck that keeps pressure on while disrupting your opponents. Playing 4 CMC enchantments doesn't really fit that plan. I'm coming from a position of some experience there because of Thalia - my first draft included a lot more like that and the stereotypical mono colored inclusions like Caged Sun and Gauntlet of Power. While they're not bad cards, they're not contributing to an already fairly fragile strategy and it's likely you're trying to include them because of the danger of cool things and entrenched deckbuilding mores.
For what your list is lacking, I'd keep in mind which colors can give you reach, whether that's evasion, direct damage, or whatever else, and which colors can give you tutors and recursion. Green, for example, doesn't contribute a whole lot to the disruption plan on its own, but being able to tutor up Thalia or Glowrider might have a bigger impact on the game than the Rishadans in blue. That's not just a passive aggressive way of saying that that's the case; I really don't know and it's something to consider when you're putting this together. Similarly, recursion in green and black is almost like having extra copies of your important taxing guys. Blue and black both offer removal, which is hugely helpful for clearing a path later in the game.
YMMV, but that's how I see this type of deck coming together.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Blue White blink does seem like the best idea for this deck... then you can abuse the rishadan creatures along with tax effects Rishadan Brigand Rishadan Cutpurse Rishadan Footpad
Green might also help... then you get access to Root Maze and a few good green blink creatures to eat opposing artifacts and enchantments, along with creature tutors... but Blue White definitely seems like the core two colors for this deck. Also, Cloudstone Curio would be cool if you ran lots of come into play effects.
Thread is a necro. If you would like to strike up a new discussion on this please feel free to. Given how dated this thread is its better to move to a new discussion than to strike this one back up though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Can a similar strategy be done in EDH?
My initial thought was to go with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as the general, however, after further thought, it is my belief that a second color is necessary to fill the gaps that occur in a 100 card highlander format. Thus, I went with Gaddock Teeg as he is cheap and helps protect against wraths.
I have a basic decklist here (http://essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=919007) but it currently just feels like it is just G/W good stuff with a dash of taxing effects. I would love to get some discussion going as to how best to implement this strategy (or if it is even possible to implement this strategy) in this format.
Much thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the siggy!
[EDH Decks]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WBG ~Teneb, the Harvester; Boardwipes FTW~ GBW
WUR ~Numot, the Devestator; Mid-Range Stax~ RUW
[EDH in Progress]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
URG ~Riku of Two Reflections; Clones and Copies~ GRU
WUB ~Sharuum, the Hegemon; Stax Control~ BUW
Generation 14: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.
Don't expect too much love from your opponents with either, though.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Is Death and Taxes really considered a Prison strategy? I always thought Staxx was the main culprit in that regard, and Staxx is not a deck I want to play. This is one reason I went with Teeg instead of GAAIV as I didn't want it to be a control deck in the "blue" sense of the word.
D&T is not as much prison as taxing, however it is better able to use the limited amount of taxing effects in the format (4-ofs, 60 cards). It's also very tempo-based and aggression-based, which is hard to translate into a 40-life multiplayer format. So, I usually combine the elements so there can be some sense of redundancy.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
If you want the D&T strategy as more of a sub-theme, I'd say go for it -- basing the entire deck around it probably won't work well, however. Personally, I think one of the biggest losses for it in EDH is the lack of Karakas for easily reusing Mangara of Corondor.
Commander/EDH Decks:
BRG The Blood of Jund - Kresh the Bloodbraided BRG
WR The Blades of Goldnight - Gisela, Blade of Goldnight WR
It leans more towards the taxing side, but it is brutal when he starts effectively controlling Mangara.
Hazezon Tamar EDH
I like the decklist Weebos. You sure it wouldn't benefit from a splash though? The reason I went with Teeg is because he protects against Wraths, something that can really mess the deck up. Additionally, green gives some needed card draw to make it through the inevitable end game, ramp so that the land denial is felt more, and more destruction effects (meaning acidic slime, qasali pridemage, wickerbough elder, etc.).
I do understand that Death and Taxes could never be truly realized in this format, but I feel like W/x resource denial/weenie may still be a viable strategy. I still think pure white doesn't work. The question for me is which color to splash. Red gives very little other than more land destruction. Black doesn't have the proper generals to do it. Blue has GAAIV, but I find that he is both a little on the expensive side, and prompts a different style of deck (namely Staxx or super control, not D&T style weenie shenanigans). This leaves Green and therefore Teeg. Please argue against me, it's the best way to generate any sort of sound concepts.
Why can't GAAIV be a D&T commander? He's a Sphere of Resistance that not only doesn't effect your spells, but makes them cost 1-2 less, for just one more mana. You're splashing green for card advantage? Blue does that in spades. Blue gives you a lot more advantages than green, and the only real advantage w/Teeg is that he stops your opponent with wrath effects.
GAAIV is more used for Staxx than D&T. This is true. But Staxx uses a lot of the same elements as D&T (Thorn, Sphere, etc.) and has a lot more reach in the format. Maybe Teeg would let you be more D&T because he would force you to not go Staxx, but that's the only real reason I see him being that much better.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
What decent D&T creatures does blue bring though? The ones that are decent are more controlling and less able to bring the beatdown that D&T needs (I mean D&T does play Serra Avenger for a reason). Remember too that most taxing effects are noncreature taxing (Glowrider, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thorn of Amethyst), so running the blue splash would mean avoiding some great blue cards as they would not be synergistic to the strategy. I like me some GAAIV, but I am still not sold on it being the best general for such a strategy. What sort of decklist would you make if you did use GAAIV?
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Yes, it would benefit from a splash. There are very few edh decks that couldn't be improved with the addition of another color. Mine was attempting to buld around Thalia. I'm posting it here not to try and convince you to play Thalia, though I have been enjoying the deck with her at the helm, but to give you some ideas of possible inclusions in your own list. There's been a fair amount of discussion on the list, so it should help you find the aggressive and disruptive creatures you want to run in a deck with a similar strategy.
For what you're talking about, either R or G makes the most sense. I wouldn't discount R quite yet, because there are a few creatures with LD stapled on, and that seems desirable here. Jor Kadeen isn't as on theme as Teeg, but he could speed up your clock to the point where fast disruptive aggro is much more likely to work.
Well how about we make a list of auto include for each color? I will start (since white is going to be the base regardless, any multicolored cards will be white):
White:
Glowrider
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Spelltithe Enforcer
Chancellor of the Annex
Mangara of Corondor
Stonecloaker
Leonine Arbiter
Grand Abolisher
Aura of Silence
possibly:
Astral Slide
Suppression Field
geddon effects
Green:
Gaddock Teeg
possibly:
Life from the Loam
Blue:
Grand Arbiter Augustine IV
Rishadan Cutpurse
Rishadan Footpad
Rishadan Footpad
Rhystic Study
Squeeze
possibly:
cheap counterspells dealing with costs (ala Mana Leak)
Invoke Prejudice
In the eye of chaos
Black:
?
Red:
Land destruction guys (ala Ravenous Baboons)
Stranglehold
Artifacts:
Thorn of Amethyst
Sphere of resistance
possibly:
Winter orb
Static Orb
Any I am missing/should be removed?
For what your list is lacking, I'd keep in mind which colors can give you reach, whether that's evasion, direct damage, or whatever else, and which colors can give you tutors and recursion. Green, for example, doesn't contribute a whole lot to the disruption plan on its own, but being able to tutor up Thalia or Glowrider might have a bigger impact on the game than the Rishadans in blue. That's not just a passive aggressive way of saying that that's the case; I really don't know and it's something to consider when you're putting this together. Similarly, recursion in green and black is almost like having extra copies of your important taxing guys. Blue and black both offer removal, which is hugely helpful for clearing a path later in the game.
YMMV, but that's how I see this type of deck coming together.
Rishadan Brigand
Rishadan Cutpurse
Rishadan Footpad
Green might also help... then you get access to Root Maze and a few good green blink creatures to eat opposing artifacts and enchantments, along with creature tutors... but Blue White definitely seems like the core two colors for this deck. Also, Cloudstone Curio would be cool if you ran lots of come into play effects.
Thread is a necro. If you would like to strike up a new discussion on this please feel free to. Given how dated this thread is its better to move to a new discussion than to strike this one back up though.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies