MTG Salvation

I was at the grand prix this weekend. I didn't play in standard, but I played in some of the EDH events. As I expected both games a played a player combo-ed out.

The first game was chaos commander in a 5 person pod. The winner moved on to face other people and the rest in the pod lose. Whenever a player knocks out another player the first player gets a pack. Key decks at the table were a player playing hungry hungry hippos, and someone playing 5 color child of alara.(He had a 3d card as a Stewie alter). So the hippo man plays magus of the vineyard and then a heartbeat springs the next turn. All this mana enabled the 5 color guy to get about 3 or 4 turns in a row and won with thopter foundry and sword of the meek. Since he beat everybody at once, he got 4 packs and moved on in the tourney.

The next game I played was regular edh in just a 4 person pod. The winner gets 10 packs. I forget who was playing what general, but everybody except the combo player got either land screwed or stuff screwed. I had a land drop every turn, but no ramp and nothing i could play. My friend had very few lands and wasn't drawing any. I had a man-land that I kept animating, heroically trying to save the rest of the table by attacking the combo player's planeswalker. It didn't work. The combo player won. Even though i really don't like combo, no one else had anything they could do.

So did anyone else go the Grand Prix in Baltimore and play EDH? I wish they didn't encourage players to combo out, but that's what tournament edh is.

Quote from alblaster

So did anyone else go the Grand Prix in Baltimore and play EDH? I wish they didn't encourage players to combo out, but that's what tournament edh is.

That's what most competitive EDH is. Competitive decks rarely win by beating someone down slowly - it's either combo out, resource(land) denial, or huge-ificent one-shot lethal damage (either from a general, massive exxsanguinate, etc). Granted, there are some exceptions.

Quote from alblaster

So did anyone else go the Grand Prix in Baltimore and play EDH? I wish they didn't encourage players to combo out, but that's what tournament edh is.

Honestly, I don't expect anything BUT this to happen when I play EDH at events anymore. When you put anything on the line, it ceases to be the same old kooky casual format where you can get away with weird ideas and turns into a slightly more readily accepted and approachable form of Vintage. It brings the dick out in all of us.

I wasn't able to attend the GP, but it's my understanding that a lot of the dudes from Commander Cast went, like Carlos. I bet games with them were amazing.

Quote from Jack_from_NC

Honestly, I don't expect anything BUT this to happen when I play EDH at events anymore. When you put anything on the line, it ceases to be the same old kooky casual format where you can get away with weird ideas and turns into a slightly more readily accepted and approachable form of Vintage. It brings the dick out in all of us.

I wasn't able to attend the GP, but it's my understanding that a lot of the dudes from Commander Cast went, like Carlos. I bet games with them were amazing.

Even though I was expecting competitive decks, I was hoping that the competitive players would knock each other out while I slip in for the win. Unfortunately this did not happen. I could have played with the commander cast guys. I don't know any of them so who knows. I was playing a chorus of the conclave deck. I was expecting to win, I was just hoping for a longer game.

normal EDH/commander i would say dont be a dick. but in tourneys or events for packs i would play a broken deck too.

I played two games at the GP, and both were fun, and neither was cutthroat. The reason it played out that way was when we were walking over to our table, we asked each other what kind of decks we were playing, and whether or not we wanted to do a super competitive game. All of us agreed that we just wanted to play, and not worry about the packs.

Quote from Ender84

I played two games at the GP, and both were fun, and neither was cutthroat. The reason it played out that way was when we were walking over to our table, we asked each other what kind of decks we were playing, and whether or not we wanted to do a super competitive game. All of us agreed that we just wanted to play, and not worry about the packs.

It's amazing what social skills can accomplish sometimes.

I played in 1 commander side event, and it went more or less how I expected to. After losing, we all went out to the lobby and played more after that. Led to fun, and some trades as people walked by and struck up conversations.

I played against two BUG combo decks in two different games. It was then that I realized they must be hated off the table. Third game I won but I was really disappointed that the fun was being taken out of EDH.

Interesting. I'm not seeing the connection between competitive equating to "being a dick" or "takes the fun out of the game."

I find being around competitive environments to be the most fun, and being around competitive players who can hold casual conversation w/o getting emotional over the game state allows me to strengthen my feel for the game all while meeting new magic buddies.

Perhaps it is time for EDH to have separate clearly defined formats as to keep people with different ideas of "fun", in the groups they want to belong to.

Quote from Secularon

Interesting. I'm not seeing the connection between competitive equating to "being a dick" or "takes the fun out of the game."

I find being around competitive environments to be the most fun, and being around competitive players who can hold casual conversation w/o getting emotional over the game state allows me to strengthen my feel for the game all while meeting new magic buddies.

Perhaps it is time for EDH to have separate clearly defined formats as to keep people with different ideas of "fun", in the groups they want to belong to.

I run Zur and Azusa- it is not a question about competitiveness. The wins with the BUG players were well played, TAN into Vorinclex Paly and then oona, I get it, we've seen these. The same goes for Hermit Druid and everything that the combo entails. While most of these combos die to a well placed counterspell or removal, especially if there are three other players looking at them, I had thought of EDH to be the more casual of the formats. It is easy to be casual at a table. This is still just a game, there is no need to get emotional about a loss or a win. All I am saying was that the consistent turn three win was getting old after a while.

What my old group used to do was play with a larger group, perhaps 5 or 6 people, and play for first and second place. If someone did combo off and could kill everyone, he would bow out and take first while the rest of the players fought for second. Obviously if there are two combo decks in the same pod then the latter combo deck will have a little more time to finish up, but generally in my experience there has been one per pod at big tournaments. I think it's a good idea, worth looking into.

Again, please don't mistake what I say for just complaints about competitiveness. I assure you that is not my intent.

Just curious, I got a GP coming out this December tho, out of the decks from my signature which one do you think is more consistent and can combo them out? Im thinking of Ghaves running persist combos, infinite token combos might work.

Quote from GouGou

Just curious, I got a GP coming out this December tho, out of the decks from my signature which one do you think is more consistent and can combo them out? Im thinking of Ghaves running persist combos, infinite token combos might work.

Depends on what you're running I guess. Do you have decklists?

Quote from alblaster

The winner gets 10 packs.

Interesting, that is quite a prize payout

Personally, I am of the opinion that prizes for EDH tournaments should be as intangible as possible. Putting real prizes on the line (e.g. packs, cold hard cash, etc.) brings the worst of players. In fact, in events of these sorts, I am not sure if an actual social contract could be established to begin with. Social contracts are generally created through repeated interactions and understanding, along with the underlying threat that if you breach these social conventions, you are going to get dismembered in the worst possible way during subsequent games. Given that most of these events consist of a few games, at best, players in these sort of
events have neither incentive to avoid socially unacceptable practices nor any information as to what are these "socially unacceptable practices", to begin with.This is why when I go to a new LGS, I never bother joining any events with prizes simply because as a newbie there, there is no way for me to gauge what is socially acceptable or unacceptable there; I usually end up lurking a few times before finally plunging into the scene.

It does not help that being a GP, players tend to get a more competitive vibe about things. The last GP I attended (this is about two years ago) had quite a few infi-combo EDH decks running around as well as one player who admitted that the deck was just assembled to be competitive, just for that GP.

Quote from alblaster

Even though I was expecting competitive decks, I was hoping that the competitive players would knock each other out while I slip in for the win. Unfortunately this did not happen. I could have played with the commander cast guys. I don't know any of them so who knows. I was playing a chorus of the conclave deck. I was expecting to win, I was just hoping for a longer game.

So you were expecting other people to underestimate you long enough for seize the reigns of victory?
I think the problem lay not in the people you played with, but your own estimation of success in persuing such a high-risk strategy. True, we like to think that "High" targets will attack equal level targets at the table, but that's just not true. What's more likely is this-for the purposes of this example, assume all players are using "broken" lists by your personal definition:

Player A, B, C, and D sit down to a game. They're complete strangers. Player A gains an early mana advantage, but doesn't do anything with it. Player B and C exchange blows, pretend they're in a duel and ignore the rest of the table in hopes of resolving now-personal vendettas. Player D is an absolute durdle who can barely read. Player B/C takes out their peer, then attempts to move on to Player A. By now, it's far too late, and either 1)Player A has significant advantage and takes out the remaining two players, or 2) Both players are now in yet another Vendetta, and squabble long enough to give Player D an incredibly obvious path to victory that they may take if no distracting, shiney objects are at the table.
Fin.

Never assume "broken" players will only target "broken" players. MTG players are vain, egotistical creatures by nature who couldn't evaluate a threat to save their life, and are just as likely to assault the guy who cracked a "yo' mama" joke as they are the appropriate target.

Quote from Jack_from_NC

[/I]Never assume "broken" players will only target "broken" players. MTG players are vain, egotistical creatures by nature who couldn't evaluate a threat to save their life, and are just as likely to assault the guy who cracked a "yo' mama" joke as they are the appropriate target.

This is actually very true (sadly). Being too quiet is bad, being too rowdy is also bad. And depending on how bad people's treat assessment is, you might get attacked by the entire table just because they feel like it. Smooth talking and persuasion might help minimize it, but don't expect it to work every time.

Quote from Jack_from_NC

Never assume "broken" players will only target "broken" players. MTG players are vain, egotistical creatures by nature who couldn't evaluate a threat to save their life, and are just as likely to assault the guy who cracked a "yo' mama" joke as they are the appropriate target.

This sums up ANY multiplayer format without attacking boundaries perfectly.

There is no problem with playing cut-throat EDH when there are prizes on the line, but there really should be a disclaimer when you sign up. Not everyone has been to a GP/Open and knows how the side events play out. Hell, a large portion of commander players don't know about broken combo plays.

My experience with EDH at large events was largely at GenCon a few years ago. They had 4-man EDH pods (1 pack per kill), and a couple EDH mini-tournaments (significant prizes). My wife and I played in about 9 pods and in 2 tournaments. In 8 of the pods, the games were fairly casual - I tried to fly under the radar with mono-black Maga, and she tried to go nuts with Captain Sisay. Usually one of us won because we had planned and carefully built the decks months earlier.

In the 9th pod someone comboed out with Necropotence on turn 2. In one mini-tournament someone comboed out early in round one, and in the second tourmament someone comboed out early in round 2.

My experience is that high prizes generate competition which is at odds with the "casual fun" EDH experience. A player like myself has the most fun playing with little or no prize on the line. In my mind, paying $10 for a 5 minute game of who-can-combo-faster is a waste of time. Paying $4 for a two hour game where I sometimes win a couple of packs alright.

If you want to have fun with casual-level EDH in a large tournament, play in unofficial games or low-prize pods. You'll surely find lots of other casual players and have a lot more fun (and save money) by avoiding high-payout games.

I'm generally a big endorser of "support your local store/TO," but I do not support the 4-man collusion-fests at big events. If you want to play for prizes, more power to you, but I'd much rather see people enjoying themselves (all the people, not just the guy comboing out) in EDH games. I'd like to see TOs run both 'significant' prize pods and 'insignificant' pods or something to be able to maximize everyone's enjoyment.

When in doubt, do what I saw a couple of guys do at the open play tables at PT Philly: Sit down with a sign that says "Casual EDH games wanted." It will attract the kind of players you want.

Quote from Sheldon

When in doubt, do what I saw a couple of guys do at the open play tables at PT Philly: Sit down with a sign that says "Casual EDH games wanted." It will attract the kind of players you want.

This. You'll have some epic multiplayer games this way.

Also, good to see you Sheldon.

Combo is, in general, the most efficient way to beat an entire table of opponents. At a 4-man table, the aggro player has 3 times as much life to chew through and the control player has 3 times as many nasty spells to deal with. The combo player still just needs to assemble the one combo and win. (For most combo strategies.) So, at a game with prizes on the line, the player(s) interested in winning more than having fun are going to bring strong combo decks.

If I were going to play at events like that, you can bet I'd be bringing at least my pimpin' Ghave combo. More likely I'd assemble Hermit Druid. For the prizes. And the lulz.

Quote from Sheldon

When in doubt, do what I saw a couple of guys do at the open play tables at PT Philly: Sit down with a sign that says "Casual EDH games wanted." It will attract the kind of players you want.

I'm doing this at my next prerelease. Awesome.

It wasn't all bad. After the second game, we had a few games just for the hell of it. The game ended when 2 of them had to leave, but that game was fun. One guy kept building his board with stuff and I kept killing it. It was funny. Loseing the tourny wasn't that bad because my school is paying for all the tournaments. If I play in one of these tournys next time I might make a distruptive deck just for this purpose.