MTG Salvation

Quote from GundamGuy

This is incredibly broken, there are tons of cards with instant speed interactions with your hand, and lots of ways to abuse this.

There is a reason why it was designed so that you don't pay the tax to put it into your hand, then get to cast as normal... it's just to easy to abuse.

Quote from GundamGuy

The issue is to activate abilities priority has to be gained, which means that you either create a really awkward situation where commander abilities in the command zone / hand can be activated without priority... and with unusual timing, or you create a situation where it's super easy to abuse.

This is why my previous suggestion created a special action costing {total cost of general}, which then allowed you to cast your general for free from the hand without paying its cost during the resolution of the special action. There's no issues with priority that way, and you're not able to split the mana cost and tax.

That said, my version also left the general in your hand if you chose not to cast it for free, because while there are a lot of things you can do by discarding your general, I don't feel that's necessarily a bad thing; especially since it's pretty much the only way to use Haakon as a general.

What's wrong with:

"Any time you could cast your commander, you may move your commander to your hand if you pay 2 for each time it has previously left the command zone this game"

It replaces the current casting rules for commanders and seems to reduce complexity while allowing every legend to be used in more or less it's intended functionality. It does change a few things, like being able to flash-move Venser into your hand in response to a Mind Twist to save a key spell and then move Venser back to the command zone, but I think the added strategy there would be mostly beneficial.

There must be some rules quirk that makes this abusable tho, anyone care to enlighten me?

The problem is that it lets you break the mana cost for casting the general over two turns. If my Kresh has died twice, I can spend 4 on one turn and GRB2 on the next turn to cast him, even if I only have 5 mana available. It's really important that you have to come up with the mana in one big batch, or it takes a lot longer for the general tax to make generals cost prohibitive.

I am not a big fan of anything that moves the card to the hand. It seems to add to much complexity for the amount of gain we would get.

Speaking of gains Iname as One would be playable with this rule.

Quote from tedv

The problem is that it lets you break the mana cost for casting the general over two turns. If my Kresh has died twice, I can spend 4 on one turn and GRB2 on the next turn to cast him, even if I only have 5 mana available. It's really important that you have to come up with the mana in one big batch, or it takes a lot longer for the general tax to make generals cost prohibitive.

True, but in that case you've effectively denied yourself a turn of board development. I feel like its probably an ok trade off. Consider also that while my change doesn't affect players with enough mana to outright cast their commander (tax and all), it does make it much easier for a mana screwed player to recast their commander.

It doesn't add much complexity either, definitely less than the other proposed changes and faar less than the colour identity changes. Again, I feel it's worth it but opinions obviously vary.

That's exactly the problem. A mana screwed player shouldn't be allowed to cast their commander.

Also consider the following example:

My Maro is the only creature out. 4 forests in hand. You're at 5. I can move my commander to hand for lethal damage. That's certainly not how the game was intended (at least not in my mind).

The more I think about this the less enthused I become. I feel like there are a lot of ways to abuse it, especially with the "move to your hand first" scenarios.

I'm sorry if this was already covered, but what about cards like sneak attack and quicksilver amulet? Will they effect the general?

Quote from Raguel

The more I think about this the less enthused I become. I feel like there are a lot of ways to abuse it, especially with the "move to your hand first" scenarios.

I'm sorry if this was already covered, but what about cards like sneak attack and quicksilver amulet? Will they effect the general?

No and I'm a little out of speed with this thread, but I have been trying to discourage the wording that involves the hand then entire time. Again, the general is never part of your hand, it just needs to pretend it came from there.

I'm in agreement that any rule that actually moves your general to your hand is going to be an unintended exploits basket case. Sorry, Haakon. At least the Myojin are salvageable.

Quote from tedv

I'm in agreement that any rule that actually moves your general to your hand is going to be an unintended exploits basket case. Sorry, Haakon. At least the Myojin are salvageable.

Well, any rule that moves your general to your hand and then gives players priority.

As I mentioned earlier, haakon wouldn't be possible without fundamentally changing the way we play Commander. The same interaction where you could discard Haakon to putrid imp can also be used with Sharuum in a reanimator deck.

You're all just thinking about this too complexly. Casting a general that can only be cast from the GY should NOT be able to be done. It's the flavor of the card that it be cast from there and not your hand, sorry. BUT, the other rules should be ammended (now much easierly because we don't have to do any of this hand moving stuff)

2 easy changes:
1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand but must pay any additional commander taxes if appropriate"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

Quote from prosistheplumber

You're all just thinking about this too complexly. Casting a general that can only be cast from the GY should NOT be able to be done. It's the flavor of the card that it be cast from there and not your hand, sorry. BUT, the other rules should be ammended (now much easierly because we don't have to do any of this hand moving stuff)

2 easy changes:
1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand but must pay any additional commander taxes if appropriate"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

Pretty much perfect, in my opinion.

Quote from gilrad

As I mentioned earlier, haakon wouldn't be possible without fundamentally changing the way we play Commander. The same interaction where you could discard Haakon to putrid imp can also be used with Sharuum in a reanimator deck.

But that's not true at all. So long as no player gains priority, no such shenanigans are possible. As I've said, paying total cost to move to hand as a special action, and then immediately casting it for free prevents any priority shenanigans and prevents splitting the cost between turns. My own opinion is that allowing the player to leave it in their hand should be allowed, but if the wording is something along the lines of "cast if able, otherwise discard", then Haakon does in fact work, without allowing other generals to be discarded.


At this point, Ith is actually a bigger problem than Haakon. Making Ith work for his suspend cost rather than mana cost would require a change to the way Suspend works, I think.

Quote from prosistheplumber

You're all just thinking about this too complexly. Casting a general that can only be cast from the GY should NOT be able to be done. It's the flavor of the card that it be cast from there and not your hand, sorry. BUT, the other rules should be ammended (now much easierly because we don't have to do any of this hand moving stuff)

2 easy changes:
1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand but must pay any additional commander taxes if appropriate"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

I agree that this is a perfectly concise way of amending the rules. Adding a card from the command zone to your hand, whether priority is given or not, is something that is highly unintuitive, and completely changes the spirit of the format.

And what is this issue with suspend that everyone keeps bringing up? Sure, it says "from hand" like all the other abilities we're trying to fix (ninjutsu, etc). But this should account for that, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Quote from Slivortal

And what is this issue with suspend that everyone keeps bringing up? Sure, it says "from hand" like all the other abilities we're trying to fix (ninjutsu, etc). But this should account for that, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Suspend isn't an activated ability, it's a special action.

Quote from prosistheplumber

You're all just thinking about this too complexly. Casting a general that can only be cast from the GY should NOT be able to be done. It's the flavor of the card that it be cast from there and not your hand, sorry. BUT, the other rules should be ammended (now much easierly because we don't have to do any of this hand moving stuff)

2 easy changes:
1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand but must pay any additional commander taxes if appropriate"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

Sorry for being gone for so long. Slight edit to the wording above to make smoother:

1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand, paying the additional commander taxes for each time the commander has been sent to the command zone"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

If this is our current final wording, I'd like to try and move this to a vote in the community to see if we can get something going. Any suggestions? Mods: should I make a new thread for the poll or can I add it to the current one?

Quote from tempo

Sorry for being gone for so long. Slight edit to the wording above to make smoother:

1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand, paying the additional commander taxes for each time the commander has been sent to the command zone"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

If this is our current final wording, I'd like to try and move this to a vote in the community to see if we can get something going. Any suggestions? Mods: should I make a new thread for the poll or can I add it to the current one?

Looks much cleaner with the slight edits

You should note I already brought it up in the following thread and it was briefly discussed with some of the rc:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=389749 (on phone - no links...)

(Let me preface I'm no mod so could be totally wrong, but as my mother always put it I'm "often wrong, but never in doubt") As a next step, I would go to mtgcommander website, as that's the site the entire rc frequents and this is where to get it actually seriously looked at by the people who could implement a change (rc presence isn't huge here at mtgsalvation), but also it can't hurt to make a poll thread here to start clean.

Either way, post links here so we can follow

this is a good rule change. I would like that. Allows Kozilek and Ulamog to be even more useful as generals.

Quote from Gashnaw

this is a good rule change. I would like that. Allows Kozilek and Ulamog to be even more useful as generals.

How would Kozilek and Ulamog benefit from this rules change? Kozilek and Ulamog "cast trigger" is already functional under the current rules, if I understand it correctly.

Quote from tempo

Sorry for being gone for so long. Slight edit to the wording above to make smoother:

1) "A commander may activate abilities from the command zone as though it was in its owners hand, paying the additional commander taxes for each time the commander has been sent to the command zone"

2) "A commander cast from the command zone is treated as though it is cast from its caster's hand"

If this is our current final wording, I'd like to try and move this to a vote in the community to see if we can get something going. Any suggestions? Mods: should I make a new thread for the poll or can I add it to the current one?

So just so I understand suppose I use, Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor, and have not cast him yet this game. I can use his ability from the commandzone for UUU, could I then activate it again for UUU since he hasn't been sent back to the command zone? Does he get a penality payment counter each time you activate?

Same with Ambassador Laquatus I could just pay mana to activate his ability at instant speed and mill someone out... with out you guys being able to play around the creature or use your removal on him?

Azami, Lady of Scrolls cost no mana, can I just tap a wizard with this in my command zone and draw a card?

These rules seem to break some of the fundamental interactions in the game... unless I'm completely misinterpreting them. (Having them be easily misinterpreted is also a problem)

Quote from GundamGuy

So just so I understand suppose I use, Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor, and have not cast him yet this game. I can use his ability from the commandzone for UUU, could I then activate it again for UUU since he hasn't been sent back to the command zone? Does he get a penality payment counter each time you activate?

Same with Ambassador Laquatus I could just pay mana to activate his ability at instant speed and mill someone out... with out you guys being able to play around the creature or use your removal on him?

Azami, Lady of Scrolls cost no mana, can I just tap a wizard with this in my command zone and draw a card?

These rules seem to break some of the fundamental interactions in the game... unless I'm completely misinterpreting them. (Having them be easily misinterpreted is also a problem)

You're completely misinterpreting them (no offense). The activated abilities you're listing couldn't be activated from your hand anyways. The effects that could be activated from one's hand normally are effects like:

Suspend, Ninjutsu, Channel

Which all end up with the creature hitting the battlefield or the graveyard, and if/when they get sent back to the general zone, their general tax will rise as normal.

Quote from Slivortal

You're completely misinterpreting them (no offense). The activated abilities you're listing couldn't be activated from your hand anyways. The effects that could be activated from one's hand normally are effects like:

Suspend, Ninjutsu, Channel

Which all end up with the creature hitting the battlefield or the graveyard, and if/when they get sent back to the general zone, their general tax will rise as normal.

Ah makes more sense now. Yeah that's a lot less busted.

However Suspend isn't an activated ability, it's a special action like morph.

Quote from GundamGuy

Ah makes more sense now. Yeah that's a lot less busted.

However Suspend isn't an activated ability, it's a special action like morph.

You're correct, and this would just require amending the rule to say "...activated abilities AND special actions as though they were in their owners hand..." A minor adjustment

On an unrelated side note about Ith, I was always a little sad that Ith had the same ability as Maze of ith, it seemed to me that it was the "maze" part that removed the creature from combat, not the Ith part. Oh well