I don't think there needs to be any special rules forcing the player to cast the general immediately. If the player wants to hold their general in their hand for a while, so be it.
There's also the question of when the special action could be taken. Can you move your general to your hand as an instant? Players would pay the general tax the turn before they want to cast their general. As a sorcery? Generals with Flash would become much less useful. Any time you could cast your general? Probably the best solution, though it makes the rules wording a bit more complicated.
Oops, forgot about the sorcery clause, though I think you struck an even better wording with "any time you could cast your general".
Anyway, I think the goal here is to enable as many previously-unusable generals or general abilities without changing the way the game is played too much. With that said, I think it should be sorcery-speed (otherwise, lol I'll just pay my general tax to skip discarding to Sword of Feast and Famine), and there should be a clause that prevents people from holding their general in their hand (otherwise, as you mentioned, people could split the payment of their general, making general tax much weaker as a form of general denial).
Maybe wording more like this: Any time you could cast your commander, you may pay yada yada yada mana and move it from the command zone to your hand. If you do, cast your commander. If you don't cast it, move it back to the command zone..
While a player's commander is in their Command Zone, it's owner may pay it's casting cost to move that card into their hand. If they do, until end of turn they may cast their commander from their hand without paying it's mana cost.
Wording aside, it allows people to opt to move their general into their hand, and choose wether or not if they'd like to cast it. Yes they get blown out by trinisphere, but I don't see any situation in which they'd choose to do this over simply casting their commander from the command zone, so it's really pretty moot. It also allows people to move generals like Haakon into their hand, and utilize a discard outlet to get him in the yard.
While a player's commander is in their Command Zone, it's owner may pay it's casting cost to move that card into their hand. If they do, until end of turn they may cast their commander from their hand without paying it's mana cost.
Wording aside, it allows people to opt to move their general into their hand, and choose wether or not if they'd like to cast it. Yes they get blown out by trinisphere, but I don't see any situation in which they'd choose to do this over simply casting their commander from the command zone, so it's really pretty moot. It also allows people to move generals like Haakon into their hand, and utilize a discard outlet to get him in the yard.
the problem here is that you miss ninjutsu and channel out. Also having it go to your hand and stay there is like drawing a card, which effects a WHOLE lot of power toughness things: "oh you're at 3 with no blockers I have 2 cards in hand and a Overbeing of Myth in play. guess I'll just move my commander over for the last point." too broken if the effect doesn't cast it in the manner you're attempting to right away. This hand business is wrong. Show me a wording in which it works the same as the way I've set down and has no strange interactions.
Commander ninjutsu on demand is kind of going a little too far, but if you really want, you can break it up into several rules.
While a commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate activated abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do, you gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
-The emblems keep track of the additional costs
-Total cost includes additional costs
Total Cost
What a player actually has to pay, in practical terms, to cast a spell or activated ability: the mana cost,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases (including additional costs) and minus all cost
reductions. See rule 601.2e.
-Haakon can't be cast from your hand, and will be discarded. He is the only general like that, and you cannot opt to discard your general at will.
-Only abilities that could be used while your general is in your hand can be activate from your command zone, meaning ninjutsu is viable and will create an emblem.
Actually, I think some way of putting your commander into your hand from the command zone doesn't seem too extraordinary. I'd be willing to playtest it. You could make it so instead of every time you cast it from the command zone add 2 to every time you cast it or move it to your hand pay an additional 2. This will also help curb more expensive generals' recasting down. Say your general costs 6 and has died 3 times, instead of paying a flat 12 you can split it over 2 turns. That... Doesn't seem so bad, unless I'm missing something.
Linessa is probably the only one it's going to be relevant for (get her into your gy, then use Back from the Brink to make a copy and put her in the Command zone instead of Exile).
Overall though it seems like the rules change would just generate complications just to enable a very small number of generals. Like all the other "proposed changes" if it works for your group then do it. It's not like anyone outside your group has any real ability to do anything about it. And if they don't want to play against your decks with changed rules, then build ones with unchanged rules. Or don't play with them. Either way.
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Actually, I think some way of putting your commander into your hand from the command zone doesn't seem too extraordinary. I'd be willing to playtest it. You could make it so instead of every time you cast it from the command zone add 2 to every time you cast it or move it to your hand pay an additional 2. This will also help curb more expensive generals' recasting down. Say your general costs 6 and has died 3 times, instead of paying a flat 12 you can split it over 2 turns. That... Doesn't seem so bad, unless I'm missing something.
+1. This actually seems like the cleanest solution.
Commander ninjutsu on demand is kind of going a little too far, but if you really want, you can break it up into several rules.
While a commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate activated abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do, you gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
-The emblems keep track of the additional costs
-Total cost includes additional costs
Total Cost
What a player actually has to pay, in practical terms, to cast a spell or activated ability: the mana cost,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases (including additional costs) and minus all cost
reductions. See rule 601.2e.
-Haakon can't be cast from your hand, and will be discarded. He is the only general like that, and you cannot opt to discard your general at will.
-Only abilities that could be used while your general is in your hand can be activate from your command zone, meaning ninjutsu is viable and will create an emblem.
I think the wording on the second one should be:
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay its total cost to move it to your hand, then cast it without paying its mana cost if able. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
I think this makes it a bit more clear what the "otherwise" is referring to. This wording could cause a corner case where it becomes illegal to cast the general, and so you end up discarding a non-Haakon general, but I don't think that's really a problem.
Maybe someone with Phage has infiltrated the discussion...yippe (it wasn't me). Phage says yes, Ninjisutu says yes, Myojin's say no, no, no, no. Those guys could be a pretty big problem. Obviously it would be worded so you couldn't use Putrid Imp etc... but as somebody pointed can you use Granuder, Ninjistu ... its harder than it looks
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I'm fully in favour of it, since at present I have to ask my opponent's permission to house-rule-change things so I can play Ith, High Arcanist as a general.
The idea behind generals is surely so they are MORE available, not less.
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Why would you need permission to play him as your general? He can still be cast for the 7 CMC without the suspend.
Commander ninjutsu on demand is kind of going a little too far, but if you really want, you can break it up into several rules.
While a commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate activated abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do, you gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
-The emblems keep track of the additional costs
-Total cost includes additional costs
Total Cost
What a player actually has to pay, in practical terms, to cast a spell or activated ability: the mana cost,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases (including additional costs) and minus all cost
reductions. See rule 601.2e.
-Haakon can't be cast from your hand, and will be discarded. He is the only general like that, and you cannot opt to discard your general at will.
-Only abilities that could be used while your general is in your hand can be activate from your command zone, meaning ninjutsu is viable and will create an emblem.
I guess I would be in favor of this version because it doesn't change the functionality of the game in any real way. Again, I am NOT proposing a change to the general tax rule. I in fact strongly oppose the idea of being able to pay it separately; this almost defeats its entire purpose (making your general incrementally harder to cast in one go). I simply want to fix the rules to allow for more generals.
That having been said, can you (or anyone else) explain again exactly why we need to go through the hand at all? It just seems like an unnecessary step to take?
I'm glad to see the support for this, and I want to remind people that just because this may make some more powerful generals, those cards will not see play if you discourage them. Exactly as I've mentioned before, everyone could be playing hyper-fast combo decks, but because of social pressure in casual metagames, they aren't. It'll be the same with the better Myojins. And just think of the awesome ninja decks we could be getting!
God, this rules change would be so broken! Myojin decks would be everywhere, Phage would enter play on turn 7 and get promptly wrathed, and the sky would DEFINITELY fall.
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I don't get the Myojin fear at all. They all cost 8+, and, aside from Night's Reach, aren't that powerful. Night's Reach is strong, yes, but it still costs 8, and you can get it almost as easily if you just play it in your deck with all the tutoring available. If you're paying 8-10 mana for a creature, it needs to have an impact on the game. A change like this would result in some Night's Reach decks, sure, but that's no worse than any number of other Generals out there.
That having been said, can you (or anyone else) explain again exactly why we need to go through the hand at all? It just seems like an unnecessary step to take?
Having the general hit the hand is the cleanest way of enabling the most abilities possible; being able to discard haakon, stromgald's scourge with a putrid imp would take a heck of a lot of fuzzy wordings that probably couldn't be concisely phrased as a rule that worked, for example.
As I mentioned before, the goal that we should be working toward is to enable the most amount of generals and abilities while causing the least amount of fundamental rules changes possible. That's what was done with the color identity change, and I think that's a good benchmark to go by.
Sigh, yet another thread trying to kill my Phage, the Untouchable deck. The rules are fine as is. Anything that this rule does (which, fyi, would have to be very complicated if it were to cover all the corner cases, making it even harder to join the format) house rules do better.
One of the things that I really like about this format it the ability to make odd general choices work. The only general that truely doesnt work is Haakon, and most fixes for him break a lot of other cards (like the granduer combos mentioned above, or even just making him start in the yard makes him un-general taxable).
I think that I speak for a decent amount of Johnys why I say that one of the things i like about this format is playing Phage as a general as is, or breaking Mishra in a singleton format.
All im saying is that the line is drawn in a good place right now, and that making the rules more complicated to "fix" a couple of generals will make the format harder to get into, and could very easily break things.
Ok I'm getting the hand thing a little more now. So here's the new summary of the proposed change:
At any time you could cast your commander, or an ability of your commander, you may pay it's total cost, or the total cost of the ability, to move it to your hand. If you do you may cast it, or activate that ability, without paying it's mana. If you don't, discard it.
The total cost of a card, or activated abilities of a card, in the command zone is 2 more for each time that card has been sent to the command zone.
the only problem I see here, is you've basically paid for a card like Haakon, to get it into your graveyard. You still didn't play him. Which is slightly odd. But I do really like this proposed change. I've removed the emblem clause because we don't know what wizards may be planning to do that interacts with them in the future, and it could be awkward. Simply just increase total cost as we do now and deal with it not being a real thing.
Sigh, yet another thread trying to kill my Phage, the Untouchable deck. The rules are fine as is. Anything that this rule does (which, fyi, would have to be very complicated if it were to cover all the corner cases, making it even harder to join the format) house rules do better.
One of the things that I really like about this format it the ability to make odd general choices work. The only general that truely doesnt work is Haakon, and most fixes for him break a lot of other cards (like the granduer combos mentioned above, or even just making him start in the yard makes him un-general taxable).
I think that I speak for a decent amount of Johnys why I say that one of the things i like about this format is playing Phage as a general as is, or breaking Mishra in a singleton format.
All im saying is that the line is drawn in a good place right now, and that making the rules more complicated to "fix" a couple of generals will make the format harder to get into, and could very easily break things.
the thing is, those cards aren't "broken". Creatures are generals, inanimate objects, or auras, aren't. I know that a house rule is always an option. But what if I really like my Myojin of Life's Web deck? When I move to a more strict playgroup I lose all that fun because the "real rules" say I can't. What's the problem with proposing a change if everyone (or the large majority) would already let this happen?
Mono-green is a favorite of mine (I have a Big Fatties deck w/ Omnath as my general, and an Elf/Ezuri deck) , and changing the rule to count as "played from hand" could have some powerful interactions with Wild Pair.
Again, I point to the color identity rules as an example of a change that enabled more generals without changing the way the game plays in any major form. The same argument could have been made for them, but it didn't go too far. There is no slippery slope here either as long as the color identity rules change is used as a model.
The big things we need to establish are:
-That priority isn't passed between opting to move the commander to your hand and casting it. There will be no option to willfully discard your general for card advantage unless you use Haakon.
-That you can't opt not to cast it when moving it
-That the general is discarded if you're unable to cast it
-That you can only do this when you would be able to cast your general - Teferi would restrict your ability to do this, and wouldn't give you an option to merely discard your general.
Also, moving the general to your hand as a sorcery doesn't actually affect any flash generals, because you can still just ~cast~ them from your command zone. But, that said, I like my emblem idea more ;p
While your commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate activated abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do, you gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost if able. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
I know that a house rule is always an option. But what if I really like my Myojin of Life's Web deck? When I move to a more strict playgroup I lose all that fun because the "real rules" say I can't. What's the problem with proposing a change if everyone (or the large majority) would already let this happen?
Obviously, if the large majority want to change the rules of the format, it will probably happen and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I don't think that the large majority of players want to play Myojin's as their generals, and I think that the black Myojin specifcally would annoy a lot of play groups.
By the same token as your Myojin deck, what If I really like my Phage deck? I would say that the group of people who really want Myojin's to get a counter isn't too much bigger than those who like playing with Phage as is (to be fair, I am including the people who just don't want to see Phage directly cast from the command zone).
I seem to be in the minority here, but I disagree with changing the rules in this fashion. Don't we have enough power creep in the game, that we don't need to create more to make a few select generals more powerful? This whole discussion feels like it was started by one person saying, "It's not fair that I can't cast my insta-kill Phage from the command zone without losing, so we need to change the rules." Maybe it's just me. The rule is fine as it's currently written, in my apparently minority opinion.
People who like the rules as they are will, in general, be far more quiet. I highly doubt that we are in the minority.
Saying that "Because most people who posted in this thread appear to be in favor of a change, that it must be the majority opinion" is very, very wrong.
Do I think it would be cool to get to play Ith as my general and use his suspend ability from the command zone? Sure. Is it worth a change in the rules? Nope.
I agree, changing the rules for a couple of commanders seems wrong. as much as i want to ninjitsu in ink eyes, its not worth a change in the rules. the rules are simple and concise as they are now. complicating things to accomidate the 1% who want to play phage, hakkon, myojin etc....is not a solution. the color identity change solved a lot of other problems like bujoka bog in any deck. the commanders becoming playable were a bonus in my opinion. and as of yet i have yet to see either of the mirroden artifact generals played.
all that aside, wizards is accutely aware of commander as a format, and as such they continue to print higer quality legends of all varieties and colors. im content to wait for new generals as to change the rules to make old ones playable
Oops, forgot about the sorcery clause, though I think you struck an even better wording with "any time you could cast your general".
Anyway, I think the goal here is to enable as many previously-unusable generals or general abilities without changing the way the game is played too much. With that said, I think it should be sorcery-speed (otherwise, lol I'll just pay my general tax to skip discarding to Sword of Feast and Famine), and there should be a clause that prevents people from holding their general in their hand (otherwise, as you mentioned, people could split the payment of their general, making general tax much weaker as a form of general denial).
Maybe wording more like this:
Any time you could cast your commander, you may pay yada yada yada mana and move it from the command zone to your hand. If you do, cast your commander. If you don't cast it, move it back to the command zone..
Wording aside, it allows people to opt to move their general into their hand, and choose wether or not if they'd like to cast it. Yes they get blown out by trinisphere, but I don't see any situation in which they'd choose to do this over simply casting their commander from the command zone, so it's really pretty moot. It also allows people to move generals like Haakon into their hand, and utilize a discard outlet to get him in the yard.
the problem here is that you miss ninjutsu and channel out. Also having it go to your hand and stay there is like drawing a card, which effects a WHOLE lot of power toughness things: "oh you're at 3 with no blockers I have 2 cards in hand and a Overbeing of Myth in play. guess I'll just move my commander over for the last point." too broken if the effect doesn't cast it in the manner you're attempting to right away. This hand business is wrong. Show me a wording in which it works the same as the way I've set down and has no strange interactions.
no, my proposed change makes casting them act as though they were cast from your hand. they are never part of it.
Level 1 Judge
While a commander is in the command zone, you may cast it or activate activated abilities as though it where in your hand. If you do, you gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
-The emblems keep track of the additional costs
-Total cost includes additional costs
What a player actually has to pay, in practical terms, to cast a spell or activated ability: the mana cost,
activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases (including additional costs) and minus all cost
reductions. See rule 601.2e.
-Only abilities that could be used while your general is in your hand can be activate from your command zone, meaning ninjutsu is viable and will create an emblem.
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Just pray no one finds a combo with Seance and Oriss, Samite Guardian. We'll get Scepter Chant decks again.
Overall though it seems like the rules change would just generate complications just to enable a very small number of generals. Like all the other "proposed changes" if it works for your group then do it. It's not like anyone outside your group has any real ability to do anything about it. And if they don't want to play against your decks with changed rules, then build ones with unchanged rules. Or don't play with them. Either way.
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+1. This actually seems like the cleanest solution.
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At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay its total cost to move it to your hand, then cast it without paying its mana cost if able. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
I think this makes it a bit more clear what the "otherwise" is referring to. This wording could cause a corner case where it becomes illegal to cast the general, and so you end up discarding a non-Haakon general, but I don't think that's really a problem.
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Why would you need permission to play him as your general? He can still be cast for the 7 CMC without the suspend.
I guess I would be in favor of this version because it doesn't change the functionality of the game in any real way. Again, I am NOT proposing a change to the general tax rule. I in fact strongly oppose the idea of being able to pay it separately; this almost defeats its entire purpose (making your general incrementally harder to cast in one go). I simply want to fix the rules to allow for more generals.
That having been said, can you (or anyone else) explain again exactly why we need to go through the hand at all? It just seems like an unnecessary step to take?
I'm glad to see the support for this, and I want to remind people that just because this may make some more powerful generals, those cards will not see play if you discourage them. Exactly as I've mentioned before, everyone could be playing hyper-fast combo decks, but because of social pressure in casual metagames, they aren't. It'll be the same with the better Myojins. And just think of the awesome ninja decks we could be getting!
Level 1 Judge
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I don't get the Myojin fear at all. They all cost 8+, and, aside from Night's Reach, aren't that powerful. Night's Reach is strong, yes, but it still costs 8, and you can get it almost as easily if you just play it in your deck with all the tutoring available. If you're paying 8-10 mana for a creature, it needs to have an impact on the game. A change like this would result in some Night's Reach decks, sure, but that's no worse than any number of other Generals out there.
Having the general hit the hand is the cleanest way of enabling the most abilities possible; being able to discard haakon, stromgald's scourge with a putrid imp would take a heck of a lot of fuzzy wordings that probably couldn't be concisely phrased as a rule that worked, for example.
As I mentioned before, the goal that we should be working toward is to enable the most amount of generals and abilities while causing the least amount of fundamental rules changes possible. That's what was done with the color identity change, and I think that's a good benchmark to go by.
That would weaken commanders with Flash for no good reason.
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One of the things that I really like about this format it the ability to make odd general choices work. The only general that truely doesnt work is Haakon, and most fixes for him break a lot of other cards (like the granduer combos mentioned above, or even just making him start in the yard makes him un-general taxable).
I think that I speak for a decent amount of Johnys why I say that one of the things i like about this format is playing Phage as a general as is, or breaking Mishra in a singleton format.
Besides, where does it end? If your going to "fix" Phage and the Moijinns, why not "fix" Elbrus, the Binding Blade, or Genju of the Realm?
All im saying is that the line is drawn in a good place right now, and that making the rules more complicated to "fix" a couple of generals will make the format harder to get into, and could very easily break things.
At any time you could cast your commander, or an ability of your commander, you may pay it's total cost, or the total cost of the ability, to move it to your hand. If you do you may cast it, or activate that ability, without paying it's mana. If you don't, discard it.
The total cost of a card, or activated abilities of a card, in the command zone is 2 more for each time that card has been sent to the command zone.
the only problem I see here, is you've basically paid for a card like Haakon, to get it into your graveyard. You still didn't play him. Which is slightly odd. But I do really like this proposed change. I've removed the emblem clause because we don't know what wizards may be planning to do that interacts with them in the future, and it could be awkward. Simply just increase total cost as we do now and deal with it not being a real thing.
the thing is, those cards aren't "broken". Creatures are generals, inanimate objects, or auras, aren't. I know that a house rule is always an option. But what if I really like my Myojin of Life's Web deck? When I move to a more strict playgroup I lose all that fun because the "real rules" say I can't. What's the problem with proposing a change if everyone (or the large majority) would already let this happen?
Level 1 Judge
Again, I point to the color identity rules as an example of a change that enabled more generals without changing the way the game plays in any major form. The same argument could have been made for them, but it didn't go too far. There is no slippery slope here either as long as the color identity rules change is used as a model.
-That priority isn't passed between opting to move the commander to your hand and casting it. There will be no option to willfully discard your general for card advantage unless you use Haakon.
-That you can't opt not to cast it when moving it
-That the general is discarded if you're unable to cast it
-That you can only do this when you would be able to cast your general - Teferi would restrict your ability to do this, and wouldn't give you an option to merely discard your general.
Also, moving the general to your hand as a sorcery doesn't actually affect any flash generals, because you can still just ~cast~ them from your command zone. But, that said, I like my emblem idea more ;p
At any time you could cast your commander, you may pay it's total cost to move it to your hand. If you do, cast it without paying it's mana cost if able. Otherwise, discard your commander. You gain an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability from your command zone, it costs an additional {2}."
Obviously, if the large majority want to change the rules of the format, it will probably happen and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I don't think that the large majority of players want to play Myojin's as their generals, and I think that the black Myojin specifcally would annoy a lot of play groups.
By the same token as your Myojin deck, what If I really like my Phage deck? I would say that the group of people who really want Myojin's to get a counter isn't too much bigger than those who like playing with Phage as is (to be fair, I am including the people who just don't want to see Phage directly cast from the command zone).
Saying that "Because most people who posted in this thread appear to be in favor of a change, that it must be the majority opinion" is very, very wrong.
Do I think it would be cool to get to play Ith as my general and use his suspend ability from the command zone? Sure. Is it worth a change in the rules? Nope.
all that aside, wizards is accutely aware of commander as a format, and as such they continue to print higer quality legends of all varieties and colors. im content to wait for new generals as to change the rules to make old ones playable