I have read some discussion before about the potential to change the way that the command zone works but after listening to the most recent commandercast episode I believe that it is time the community took a stance on this.
I would like to start by clarifying that this is a change that I would actually like to propose to the RC. It's something I've been trying to get correct for a while and would now like to open to the community for scrutiny.
Original Wording
While a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. As an additional cost to cast a Commander from the command zone, its owner must pay 2 for each time it was previously cast from the command zone.
The change
Wile a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. A Commander cast from the general zone is cast from your hand. Activated abilities of Commanders in the command zone can be activated as though they were in your hand. As an additional cost to cast a Commander, or activate a Commander's ability, from the command zone, its owner must pay 2 for each time it was previously cast, or activated, from the command zone.
The reasoning
This may seem like it doesn't change a whole lot, but it does change a couple interactions. The most obvious are cards like Myojin of Cleansing Fire and his ilk; who would now enter the battlefield from the command zone with a divinity counter (which I honestly think they should). It also means that you need no longer jump through hoops to play Phage the Untouchable.
A second change this brings is that cards like Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni can ninjutsu from the command zone, and the two channel generals can now channel from the command zone; both of these are things I think should be able to be done. The final most obvious change is that Haakon can now be a viable general.
I believe the change I propose doesn't allow for any new or different brokenness of cards. It also doesn't interact with any of the other existing rules (such as commander tax). I simply propose these changes to allow for more functionality from a few generals which were clearly not originally designed with this format in mind.
I would like to hear a few big things from the community: 1) would you oppose or support this change and why? 2) Is there an interaction that this ruling change would make broken, and if so how should it be re-worded to fix that? 3) have I overlooked anyone?
Thanks guys, if this sees enough support maybe we can see it moved through in a similar manner to Emarkul's banning.
EDIT:
Removed Haakon: he was just making things worse. Clarified that commander tax applies to any type of casting or moving the general (aka channel, morph, ninjutsu, etc)
More Edits
cleaning up, adding list of effected generals. cut rules back and am now attempting to noodle out the correct way to incorporate activated abilities without either referencing them by name or unintentionally including activated abilities that don't move the general around
This seems like a very easy change that fixes small problems with generals. Similar to the color identity rule change for commander (so one can play memnarch and Bosh). My only question would be in regards to Arashi, the Sky Asunder.
Does each successive channel cost 2 more (and count towards when you eventually play the general)? Other than that potential problem, seems reasonable and fixes problems with a few decks (though ink-eyes would be way better)
I'm generally (snicker) opposed to rules changes, but I can't really find a fault with this, that is until someone points out a major power increase or broken combo because of it.
The benefit, adding new viable commanders/making it less painstaking to run certain commanders, is worth proposing the change, especially because it doesn't really affect the flavor of the format.
The only card I'm worried about is Myojin of Night's Reach considering you'd only be able to interact with it on the stack, and black has a propensity to generate fast mana fairly easily.
This seems like a very easy change that fixes small problems with generals. Similar to the color identity rule change for commander (so one can play memnarch and Bosh). My only question would be in regards to Arashi, the Sky Asunder.
Does each successive channel cost 2 more (and count towards when you eventually play the general)? Other than that potential problem, seems reasonable and fixes problems with a few decks (though ink-eyes would be way better)
you are correct, we would need to extend the general tax to include any costs of ablilities that move them out of the command zone. Something like, if a general would be cast from the command zone, or moved out of it by any of it's abilities, that ability or casting costs 2 more for each time it has been sent to the command zone this game. This would correct for channel, suspend, and ninjutsu.
I don't know how I feel about the myojins. Always having an Armageddon or Wit's End with legs available, even if the cost is steep, seems a little too powerful. The other changes are fine, especially with Haakon, but I just feel uneasy about letting the myojins enter with a counter.
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I don't know how I feel about the myojins. Always having an Armageddon or Wit's End with legs available, even if the cost is steep, seems a little too powerful. The other changes are fine, especially with Haakon, but I just feel uneasy about letting the myojins enter with a counter.
I can understand where you're coming from, but aren't we looking for a more open format? Isn't social pressure just a simple way to combat this problem? Not to mention something like the green myojin is just hillarious, do you want to deny timmy his card just to keep spike from winning and getting shunned? The way I see people playing is, if they don't like playing against one of these cards, they simply meta-ban it. I'm more concerned with cards like the new Mikeaus or Ghave getting out of hand than I am getting hit with something like wit's end or geddon which people have access to and have stopped playing anyways.
You'd really need to making the wording crisp, concise, and clean.
"You may play it as though it were in your hand."
That's a lot easier to read and understand than the paragraph long addendum and exceptions you wrote.
The problem with this wording is that when the card enters the battlefield it checks where it was played from, so for cards like Phage and the Myojins, playing it as though it were in your hand and what I have above are actually different.
This would make Phage, the Untouchable pretty powerful. It basically nullifies her drawback, since every time you send her back to the command zone she can't come back out unless cast "as though from your hand".
I like this idea a lot ... it effectively adds like 10 "new" Commanders that will see a lot of play. A lot of these guys will be very powerful, specifically Phage, the Untouchable and the black, green, and maybe red Myojin.
Actually I think Phage will be a beast, but that's not a reason not to do it.
I don't think there should be an additional clause just for Haakon, though. It's really clumsy. He'll just have to remain unplayable.
So IMO the rule should say "Commanders cast from the command zone are treated as though they were cast from your hand". Also, "Commanders may use abilities as though they were in your hand". This would make the Grandeur legends marginally more playable if you can make a copy of them and then discard them from your Command Zone over and over.
I don't agree with letting Haakon be cast from command; that violates the spirit of the card. To cast Haakon, you should have to find a way to discard it first; the rules should allow you to discard him as though he were in your hand.
Anyway, I think the best way to implement this change is by replacing the "you can cast a commander from your command zone" rule with the following rule:
If your Commander is in the command zone, you may pay N, put it into your hand and then immediately take any action you are allowed to take which would cause it to leave your hand. N is twice the number of times you have previously done this this game.
I think this neatly covers all of the problematic generals. With Haakon, for instance, you couldn't cast him directly but you could discard him at the cost of the general tax. You could channel the generals with channel, but you'd have to pay the tax each time.
God, this rules change would be so broken! Myojin decks would be everywhere, Phage would enter play on turn 7 and get promptly wrathed, and the sky would DEFINITELY fall.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
How would this rules change affect the creation of new legendary creatures?
The two channel commanders do need some scrutinizing as well, you'll be able to discard them from the command zone to the command zone (a commander going to the gy can instead be sent to the command zone), granting the player an instant repeatable ground/air wipe. Repercussion and any similar cards (future or otherwise) could make these too strong.
Linessa is probably the only one it's going to be relevant for (get her into your gy, then use Back from the Brink to make a copy and put her in the Command zone instead of Exile).
My first impression is that it could end up being far too messy to deal with properly. I'd honestly want to see it in play with every potential troublemaking card being used in various combinations before I'll take anything resembling a final stance.
My current thoughts are "Well, it could open up some interesting stuff, but it also has potential for heavy abuse."
I don't think this would honestly break the grandeur legends, I mean, if you're going through the trouble of making copies and going nuts with it, are their abilities really all that backbreaking? Don't think so. Also, yes you can recast the channel legends over and over again, but with the added change to commander tax it'd cost 2 more each time; again, not that good when you consider the other commanders who have repeated "spell" effects, like Godo, or Venser. They're just not that broken, and would even be interesting to add.
re Phage: really? she's that broken? I mean we already just need torpor orb to get her there, why is taking one card out of the equation going to break her? with all the removal in the world at your disposal, if you're going to lose to her with the change, you'd lose to her now.
If your Commander is in the command zone, you may pay N, put it into your hand and then immediately take any action you are allowed to take which would cause it to leave your hand. N is twice the number of times you have previously done this this game.
small nitpick:
If the stack is empty in your main phase and you have priority, you may pay N and move your commander from the Command Zone to your hand. N is twice the number of times you have previously done this in this game.
That would allow you to get Haakon into your hand in order to get him into the grave in the usual ways. I agree that he should not be allowed to be played from your command-zone-pseudo-hand.
I don't agree with letting Haakon be cast from command; that violates the spirit of the card. To cast Haakon, you should have to find a way to discard it first; the rules should allow you to discard him as though he were in your hand.
Anyway, I think the best way to implement this change is by replacing the "you can cast a commander from your command zone" rule with the following rule:
If your Commander is in the command zone, you may pay N, put it into your hand and then immediately take any action you are allowed to take which would cause it to leave your hand. N is twice the number of times you have previously done this this game.
I think this neatly covers all of the problematic generals. With Haakon, for instance, you couldn't cast him directly but you could discard him at the cost of the general tax. You could channel the generals with channel, but you'd have to pay the tax each time.
That is insanely more complicated than the proposed addendum. You're way overthinking it. I do think trying to work Haakon in will just needlessly complicate the change.
That is insanely more complicated than the proposed addendum. You're way overthinking it. I do think trying to work Haakon in will just needlessly complicate the change.
oh well it's looking like the inclusion of Haakon is just too much for this change. Sorry good buddy looks like you'll just have to stay on the benches. Also I have to agree that the into hand method is way overcomplicated.
That is insanely more complicated than the proposed addendum. You're way overthinking it. I do think trying to work Haakon in will just needlessly complicate the change.
It's not that complicated. Instead of "cast from the command zone plus tax", it's "pay tax to move from command zone to hand". It does change certain interactions (eg, 1-2cc general vs. Trinisphere, or facing off against Teferi+Knowledge Pool), but that's the point of discussion.
Honestly, being unable to combat Teferi/Pool lock is probably the biggest problem with that version of the rule.
It's not that complicated. Instead of "cast from the command zone plus tax", it's "pay tax to move from command zone to hand". It does change certain interactions (eg, 1-2cc general vs. Trinisphere, or facing off against Teferi+Knowledge Pool), but that's the point of discussion.
Honestly, being unable to combat Teferi/Pool lock is probably the biggest problem with that version of the rule.
This isn't about combating something. It's simply about allowing a few cards to function the way they are supposed to. Using your hand for real is too many zone changes. Rules nightmare.
I think the Myojins would be a serious problem. It is not difficult to imagine a turn four black Myojin. Having that happen against you almost every game would get old quick. Same goes for the red and white ones. The green one requires a hand full of fatties, so he wouldn't be so bad. The blue one requires a board, so that wouldn't be so bad either. The other three, though...
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I agree with Fnord, putting it into the hand is definitely the easiest way to handle this rules-wise. Something like:
You may move your commander from the command zone to your hand at the cost of yada yada yada. If you pass priority without any spells or abilities on the stack, return your commander to the command zone.
I don't much like the idea of saying "you must do this", its much cleaner rules-wise to instead make it wasteful to "not do this".
This isn't about combating something. It's simply about allowing a few cards to function the way they are supposed to. Using your hand for real is too many zone changes. Rules nightmare.
I'm not saying it's "about" combatting anything. But casting your general is one of the few things you can do when presented with a Teferi/Pool lock, and that's an interaction that must be considered, especially since it's common in any deck with Teferi at the helm.
Moving the general from the command zone to the hand is actually a simpler rules change than treating a cast from the command zone as if it were from the hand. Is also prevents any kind of Grandeur shenanigans if you could discard from the command zone to the command zone. Allowing discards from the command zone also makes pretty much every Specter creature useless.
The fact that there's an extra zone change isn't complicated at all. It simply moves the general tax from an extra cost associated with the casting, to being a separate special action, and it makes more generals more playable.
I agree with Fnord, putting it into the hand is definitely the easiest way to handle this rules-wise. Something like:
You may move your commander from the command zone to your hand at the cost of yada yada yada. If you pass priority without any spells or abilities on the stack, return your commander to the command zone.
I don't much like the idea of saying "you must do this", its much cleaner rules-wise to instead make it wasteful to "not do this".
I don't think there needs to be any special rules forcing the player to cast the general immediately. If the player wants to hold their general in their hand for a while, so be it.
There's also the question of when the special action could be taken. Can you move your general to your hand as an instant? Players would pay the general tax the turn before they want to cast their general. As a sorcery? Generals with Flash would become much less useful. Any time you could cast your general? Probably the best solution, though it makes the rules wording a bit more complicated.
Commander:
If something checks where an object was cast from, the Command Zone is counted as being from your hand.
Yeah I really like this a lot. About the Myojins:I'm just not sure I understand why them being so good is a problem except in "competitive" where there are already absurd combos like hermit druid and ad nauseam which are faster and don't even care about the general. And it's not an "everyone runs it now" problem like Emrakul since your deck would need to focus on this general.
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I would like to start by clarifying that this is a change that I would actually like to propose to the RC. It's something I've been trying to get correct for a while and would now like to open to the community for scrutiny.
Original Wording
While a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. As an additional cost to cast a Commander from the command zone, its owner must pay 2 for each time it was previously cast from the command zone.
The change
Wile a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. A Commander cast from the general zone is cast from your hand. Activated abilities of Commanders in the command zone can be activated as though they were in your hand. As an additional cost to cast a Commander, or activate a Commander's ability, from the command zone, its owner must pay 2 for each time it was previously cast, or activated, from the command zone.
Comprehensive List of Effected Commanders
1 Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
1 Myojin of Life's Web
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Higure, the Still Wind
1 Ith, High Arcanist
1 Oriss, Samite Guardian
1 Linessa, Zephyr Mage
1 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
1 Tarox Bladewing
1 Baru, Fist of Krosa
The reasoning
This may seem like it doesn't change a whole lot, but it does change a couple interactions. The most obvious are cards like Myojin of Cleansing Fire and his ilk; who would now enter the battlefield from the command zone with a divinity counter (which I honestly think they should). It also means that you need no longer jump through hoops to play Phage the Untouchable.
A second change this brings is that cards like Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni can ninjutsu from the command zone, and the two channel generals can now channel from the command zone; both of these are things I think should be able to be done. The final most obvious change is that Haakon can now be a viable general.
I believe the change I propose doesn't allow for any new or different brokenness of cards. It also doesn't interact with any of the other existing rules (such as commander tax). I simply propose these changes to allow for more functionality from a few generals which were clearly not originally designed with this format in mind.
I would like to hear a few big things from the community: 1) would you oppose or support this change and why? 2) Is there an interaction that this ruling change would make broken, and if so how should it be re-worded to fix that? 3) have I overlooked anyone?
Thanks guys, if this sees enough support maybe we can see it moved through in a similar manner to Emarkul's banning.
EDIT:
Removed Haakon: he was just making things worse. Clarified that commander tax applies to any type of casting or moving the general (aka channel, morph, ninjutsu, etc)
More Edits
cleaning up, adding list of effected generals. cut rules back and am now attempting to noodle out the correct way to incorporate activated abilities without either referencing them by name or unintentionally including activated abilities that don't move the general around
Level 1 Judge
Does each successive channel cost 2 more (and count towards when you eventually play the general)? Other than that potential problem, seems reasonable and fixes problems with a few decks (though ink-eyes would be way better)
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The benefit, adding new viable commanders/making it less painstaking to run certain commanders, is worth proposing the change, especially because it doesn't really affect the flavor of the format.
The only card I'm worried about is Myojin of Night's Reach considering you'd only be able to interact with it on the stack, and black has a propensity to generate fast mana fairly easily.
This rule would also let you suspend Ith, High Arcanist.
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you are correct, we would need to extend the general tax to include any costs of ablilities that move them out of the command zone. Something like, if a general would be cast from the command zone, or moved out of it by any of it's abilities, that ability or casting costs 2 more for each time it has been sent to the command zone this game. This would correct for channel, suspend, and ninjutsu.
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UBUWydwyn, the Biting Gale 1v1UBU
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BRBLyzie Borden and the Thrill Kill CultBRB
GWUDerevi, Birdman TacticianGWU
"Gotta have opposites dark and light, light and dark in painting. It's like in life. Gotta have a little sadness once in a while so you know when the good times come." -Bob Ross
I can understand where you're coming from, but aren't we looking for a more open format? Isn't social pressure just a simple way to combat this problem? Not to mention something like the green myojin is just hillarious, do you want to deny timmy his card just to keep spike from winning and getting shunned? The way I see people playing is, if they don't like playing against one of these cards, they simply meta-ban it. I'm more concerned with cards like the new Mikeaus or Ghave getting out of hand than I am getting hit with something like wit's end or geddon which people have access to and have stopped playing anyways.
Level 1 Judge
"You may play it as though it were in your hand."
That's a lot easier to read and understand than the paragraph long addendum and exceptions you wrote.
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The problem with this wording is that when the card enters the battlefield it checks where it was played from, so for cards like Phage and the Myojins, playing it as though it were in your hand and what I have above are actually different.
Level 1 Judge
Actually I think Phage will be a beast, but that's not a reason not to do it.
I don't think there should be an additional clause just for Haakon, though. It's really clumsy. He'll just have to remain unplayable.
So IMO the rule should say "Commanders cast from the command zone are treated as though they were cast from your hand". Also, "Commanders may use abilities as though they were in your hand". This would make the Grandeur legends marginally more playable if you can make a copy of them and then discard them from your Command Zone over and over.
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Anyway, I think the best way to implement this change is by replacing the "you can cast a commander from your command zone" rule with the following rule:
If your Commander is in the command zone, you may pay N, put it into your hand and then immediately take any action you are allowed to take which would cause it to leave your hand. N is twice the number of times you have previously done this this game.
I think this neatly covers all of the problematic generals. With Haakon, for instance, you couldn't cast him directly but you could discard him at the cost of the general tax. You could channel the generals with channel, but you'd have to pay the tax each time.
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I don't think this would honestly break the grandeur legends, I mean, if you're going through the trouble of making copies and going nuts with it, are their abilities really all that backbreaking? Don't think so. Also, yes you can recast the channel legends over and over again, but with the added change to commander tax it'd cost 2 more each time; again, not that good when you consider the other commanders who have repeated "spell" effects, like Godo, or Venser. They're just not that broken, and would even be interesting to add.
re Phage: really? she's that broken? I mean we already just need torpor orb to get her there, why is taking one card out of the equation going to break her? with all the removal in the world at your disposal, if you're going to lose to her with the change, you'd lose to her now.
Level 1 Judge
small nitpick:
That would allow you to get Haakon into your hand in order to get him into the grave in the usual ways. I agree that he should not be allowed to be played from your command-zone-pseudo-hand.
That is insanely more complicated than the proposed addendum. You're way overthinking it. I do think trying to work Haakon in will just needlessly complicate the change.
Standard
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Brewing
GWBU 4-Color Rites/Aggro GWBU
Rules Advisor
oh well it's looking like the inclusion of Haakon is just too much for this change. Sorry good buddy looks like you'll just have to stay on the benches. Also I have to agree that the into hand method is way overcomplicated.
Level 1 Judge
Honestly, being unable to combat Teferi/Pool lock is probably the biggest problem with that version of the rule.
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GEzuri, Renegade Leader [Primer]G
This isn't about combating something. It's simply about allowing a few cards to function the way they are supposed to. Using your hand for real is too many zone changes. Rules nightmare.
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You may move your commander from the command zone to your hand at the cost of yada yada yada. If you pass priority without any spells or abilities on the stack, return your commander to the command zone.
I don't much like the idea of saying "you must do this", its much cleaner rules-wise to instead make it wasteful to "not do this".
Moving the general from the command zone to the hand is actually a simpler rules change than treating a cast from the command zone as if it were from the hand. Is also prevents any kind of Grandeur shenanigans if you could discard from the command zone to the command zone. Allowing discards from the command zone also makes pretty much every Specter creature useless.
The fact that there's an extra zone change isn't complicated at all. It simply moves the general tax from an extra cost associated with the casting, to being a separate special action, and it makes more generals more playable.
I don't think there needs to be any special rules forcing the player to cast the general immediately. If the player wants to hold their general in their hand for a while, so be it.
There's also the question of when the special action could be taken. Can you move your general to your hand as an instant? Players would pay the general tax the turn before they want to cast their general. As a sorcery? Generals with Flash would become much less useful. Any time you could cast your general? Probably the best solution, though it makes the rules wording a bit more complicated.
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If something checks where an object was cast from, the Command Zone is counted as being from your hand.
Yeah I really like this a lot. About the Myojins:I'm just not sure I understand why them being so good is a problem except in "competitive" where there are already absurd combos like hermit druid and ad nauseam which are faster and don't even care about the general. And it's not an "everyone runs it now" problem like Emrakul since your deck would need to focus on this general.
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