I have one dedicated combo deck I’ll play if I run into players who think combo is fun. It is sleeved up for the purpose to either educate players that that combo is not fun, discourage players from playing combo or simply let them know if they don’t want to play a fun game then I’ll combo off long before they can and make it completely unfun for them for trying to make it unfun to play against their combo in the first place.
Wait, so you own a combo deck to beat other people who play combo decks to show them how "unfun" it is? So people really believe that level of hypocrisy? If other people are playing a deck type who the hell are you to build a deck just to ruin their fun? I can understand not playing combo due to disliking the style, but pure spite? You sir are the worst type of player.
I played some casual with all tutors banned and it was ok. However, I realized its actually just a few tutors that really are over the top. No one really cares if you fetchland, transmute, or beseech the queen. Demonic, Mystical, Vampric, Enlightened, Grim, Seal, Tooth and Nail, and Primeval are the ones people have a problem with. No one really cares when you Trinket Mage for Sol Ring all that much.
If Primeval is really that powerful in your meta, run some spot removal dude or better yet, counter it!
To be fair that's not really a helpful argument. When you kill primeval it has already gotten 2 lands (4 with haste possibly). Countering it works but it can't be counted on, especially in multiplayer.
To be fair that's not really a helpful argument. When you kill primeval it has already gotten 2 lands (4 with haste possibly). Countering it works but it can't be counted on, especially in multiplayer.
Yeah i know how Primeval works... im just astounded at how much i hear people complain about him, maybe its just my style of play but im not scared of him in the least and if he gets the controller 2 lands good for them, i hope they make the best of those two lands. It just seems like the edh players here are always crying about something, dude play the game and if something is owning you, build your deck in a way to beat it or just play your own.
The only card on the ban list that might actually be banned based on price is Ancestral Recall (I believe Library of Alexandria is on there for other reasons.)
Banning a card based on its “price tag” is not a valid reason. The rules committee might have stated it was in the beginning, but it does not occur in practice. None of the cards on the banned list are there strictly because of their “price tag.”
I remember an 'official' quote a while back about Library of Alexandria, but I can't find it for some reason. It was banned particularly because it would be an 'auto include' in the vast majority of decks, and because of its price tag and general scarcity, it wouldn't be healthy for the format. Sol Ring would be in the same boat if it was as rare as Library. Imperial Seal doesn't go into as many decks as Library would, so doesn't really need banning.
That said, I own a Library (for my cube), and I pop it in EDH decks from time to time. People don't overly care really.
I have one dedicated combo deck I’ll play if I run into players who think combo is fun. It is sleeved up for the purpose to either educate players that that combo is not fun, discourage players from playing combo or simply let them know if they don’t want to play a fun game then I’ll combo off long before they can and make it completely unfun for them for trying to make it unfun to play against their combo in the first place.
By the way, this is absolutely one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on these forums, I have no idea why you are so full of vitriol but I would suggest shuffling up your cards and relaxing dude. Congratulations on owning two Imperial Seals. It must feel great to have been playing this game for a decade+, or dropping LARGE $ on cards only to be so pissed off that you make some sort of nanny-deck to tell people what they can and cannot play. I'm so glad I have no idea who you are or where you play at because I can't imagine how angry you must be in real life.
Well by doing that you are wiping out three decks, (Arcum, Momir and Marelen) you are nuking the usefulness of tutors, and you are just destroying the game. I am getting sick of people wanting to change the rules to better their decks.
Tutors are meant to fetch cards. Usually when you use them you are done (Unless you put DT on a stick, That was just sick)
still either add tutors to your deck or build a better one. Don;t nuke good card sin EDH otherwise we will eventually end with no one playing EDH due to the confusing rules, You may as well make a new card game at that point.
I don't think that's the motivation here. The motivation is "wow, Sissay does the same thing every freakin' time."
This, decks that play out the same way ever game are so boring to play against (and play for that matter). I took apart my scion, sisay, and zur decks after 3 games. I would not cry to see tutors go away. That said, it will never happen. So we can just hope for more cards like stranglehold!
Why do people always suggest ways to cut back a format? I don't get it?
Are they getting beat by a certain strategy/creature/spell and the first thing that comes up is that that isn't fair? So ban/restrict/handicap something to take away from the meaning of the game.
If some certain deck is kicking your ass build a better deck! I would rather lose to a better player than to beat some guy 100 times. Playing against better players is what makes you better at Magic.
Cutting cards out of the format or changing their usefulness is NOT the answer.
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My personal experience has been that certain spells ultimately hose my strategy. This is obviously an indication that the format is warped. My deck is so good that it really should win most of the time and if it doesn't, then I'd really rather not play until Wizards fixes the rules.
What deck? There's some OP deck manipulation, as well as cards that take advantage of that manipulation, but hosing every OP card would destroy the format.
If you really wanted to get rid of any and all deck manipulation, you do something far worse than having a merely broken format - you have a boring one.
By the way, this is absolutely one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on these forums, I have no idea why you are so full of vitriol but I would suggest shuffling up your cards and relaxing dude. Congratulations on owning two Imperial Seals. It must feel great to have been playing this game for a decade+, or dropping LARGE $ on cards only to be so pissed off that you make some sort of nanny-deck to tell people what they can and cannot play. I'm so glad I have no idea who you are or where you play at because I can't imagine how angry you must be in real life.
For starters, thank you. I do feel great about myself. I’ve been playing multiplayer for over 12 years.
I have several EDH decks sleeved up. When I sit down to play a game and an opponent wins by some sort of combo that they were focused on pulling off I put away the deck that I was playing with and pull out my combo deck. It is rather difficult to explain what this means, but I imagine many players have experienced it. Pretty much anything that goes infinite – turns, mana. In most games not much really happens in the first few turns. So say a player is sitting there and playing a few ramp spells, then on turn 5 plays a mystical tutor for Tooth and Nail. Draws and plays it for Kiki and Pestermite. That player then thinks it is cute they beat everyone while the rest of us are just annoyed and have to start over after nothing happened. That was not a game it was merely a waste of time. Say we start another game and it happens again or some similar example. My example is basic, better ones exist, but I hope you get the point.
I will proceed to play combo. It is not a nanny deck. It is a statement of “look I can do it too.” Turn four or five the game is over and look I win. Repeat. The entire time I am bored doing this, but it is much better than getting to turn five through seven and instead of expecting to play a game get blown out by some infinite win combo.
Back on topic: I’m trying to show the perspective of someone who has the cards and doesn’t play them because there are better choices out there vs. the perspective of someone who doesn’t own them and feels they can’t compete unless they either acquire them or ban them to “level out” the playing field.
Tutors are powerful. They are both good and bad for the game. It all depends on how they are used. They should not be banned.
Getting rid of tutors is not a viable solution, but I agree totally with the mentality of getting rid of Tutors.
It's not and never will be because I can't beat them, because tutor decks can be beat and are beaten. It's that the deck is boring. It plays out the same way every time. I was always under the impression that a format consisting of singleton card choices was created to increase the random occurrences of the games, thereby making the games different.
Consistency should have a price of good deck building/adding more colors, and throwing a deck together of many tutors tends to cheapen(and slow down) the experience.
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Tutors are 4x as powerful in EDH than their intended power level in "normal" Magic. Your deck is twice as big, you are by definition playing a toolbox, and there's no 4-of consistency in your deck at all (except Plateau, Arid Mesa, Sacred Foundry, Clifftop Retreat, Rugged Prairie).
Tutors win games because sometimes you NEED Damnation while other times you NEED Ensanguinate. Players play cards that win games.
However, there is social pressure to make playing EDH with friends more fun time expenditure than, say, Smash Bros.
My Wort the Raidmother deck was a little too good and I could hear groans and people wanting to not play with me. So I changed my Regrowths to the random Regrowths (Fossil Find, Make a Wish, Charm-breaker Devils) and changed it to a token deck instead.
I will proceed to play combo. It is not a nanny deck. It is a statement of “look I can do it too.” Turn four or five the game is over and look I win. Repeat. The entire time I am bored doing this, but it is much better than getting to turn five through seven and instead of expecting to play a game get blown out by some infinite win combo.
When I was young and playing soccer, there was one kid who would just kick everyone in the balls and declare himself the winner. So, next game we played I kicked everyone in the balls to show him how it felt. Sure, all my friends were pissed since they got kicked in the balls twice, but at least I got to kick that kid in the balls too.
When I was young and playing soccer, there was one kid who would just kick everyone in the balls and declare himself the winner. So, next game we played I kicked everyone in the balls to show him how it felt. Sure, all my friends were pissed since they got kicked in the balls twice, but at least I got to kick that kid in the balls too.
Back on topic: I’m trying to show the perspective of someone who has the cards and doesn’t play them because there are better choices out there vs. the perspective of someone who doesn’t own them and feels they can’t compete unless they either acquire them or ban them to “level out” the playing field.
EDH bannings are made on a case-by-case basis, usually based one of three principles:
#1: A card's power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly in excess of both it's mana cost AND power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]
#2: A card's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone else in the game [The Power 8]
#3: A card or class of cards can not be consistantly interpreted by all players [Silver bordered cards]
I still think Imperial Seal deserves to be banned, primarily on the basis of #2. I could see tutors being banned based on #1, but I sincerely doubt that will ever happen because its extremely difficult to draw the line between the game-breakingly powerful tutors and the tutors that simply help your deck run efficiently (something we all strive for).
edit: bfellow, I honestly believe a $900 (steadily increasing) price tag is "prohibitive for most players". It's more expensive than Ancestrall Recall, Time Walk, etc.
Tutor's are gooodddd. Searching and waiting usually sucks. Counters are good Vs tutors, Split Second is better! I love when somebody Cast's TnN FTW only to see a Time Stop, or when it resolves watch the Sudden Spoiling.
If Johnny Combo keeps kicking you in the balls, adjust your pants (deck) and play something that is more competitive, or don't play with him. I play with a ton of combo players and I love wrecking their combos with exile effects. If they win, good for them, shuffle up and the next game should be like playing archenemy.
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Wait, so you own a combo deck to beat other people who play combo decks to show them how "unfun" it is? So people really believe that level of hypocrisy? If other people are playing a deck type who the hell are you to build a deck just to ruin their fun? I can understand not playing combo due to disliking the style, but pure spite? You sir are the worst type of player.
To be fair that's not really a helpful argument. When you kill primeval it has already gotten 2 lands (4 with haste possibly). Countering it works but it can't be counted on, especially in multiplayer.
You might have to tutor for that removal . . .
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Yeah i know how Primeval works... im just astounded at how much i hear people complain about him, maybe its just my style of play but im not scared of him in the least and if he gets the controller 2 lands good for them, i hope they make the best of those two lands. It just seems like the edh players here are always crying about something, dude play the game and if something is owning you, build your deck in a way to beat it or just play your own.
I remember an 'official' quote a while back about Library of Alexandria, but I can't find it for some reason. It was banned particularly because it would be an 'auto include' in the vast majority of decks, and because of its price tag and general scarcity, it wouldn't be healthy for the format. Sol Ring would be in the same boat if it was as rare as Library. Imperial Seal doesn't go into as many decks as Library would, so doesn't really need banning.
That said, I own a Library (for my cube), and I pop it in EDH decks from time to time. People don't overly care really.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
By the way, this is absolutely one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on these forums, I have no idea why you are so full of vitriol but I would suggest shuffling up your cards and relaxing dude. Congratulations on owning two Imperial Seals. It must feel great to have been playing this game for a decade+, or dropping LARGE $ on cards only to be so pissed off that you make some sort of nanny-deck to tell people what they can and cannot play. I'm so glad I have no idea who you are or where you play at because I can't imagine how angry you must be in real life.
Tutors are meant to fetch cards. Usually when you use them you are done (Unless you put DT on a stick, That was just sick)
still either add tutors to your deck or build a better one. Don;t nuke good card sin EDH otherwise we will eventually end with no one playing EDH due to the confusing rules, You may as well make a new card game at that point.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
This, decks that play out the same way ever game are so boring to play against (and play for that matter). I took apart my scion, sisay, and zur decks after 3 games. I would not cry to see tutors go away. That said, it will never happen. So we can just hope for more cards like stranglehold!
Are they getting beat by a certain strategy/creature/spell and the first thing that comes up is that that isn't fair? So ban/restrict/handicap something to take away from the meaning of the game.
If some certain deck is kicking your ass build a better deck! I would rather lose to a better player than to beat some guy 100 times. Playing against better players is what makes you better at Magic.
Cutting cards out of the format or changing their usefulness is NOT the answer.
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
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Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
If you really wanted to get rid of any and all deck manipulation, you do something far worse than having a merely broken format - you have a boring one.
What, you've never heard of porpoise control decks? ;-)
GVorinclexG -- RGodoR -- BSheoldredB -- UTalrandU -- WDarienW -- XKarnX -- WRBKaaliaBRW -- RUGMaelstrom WandererGUR
For starters, thank you. I do feel great about myself. I’ve been playing multiplayer for over 12 years.
I have several EDH decks sleeved up. When I sit down to play a game and an opponent wins by some sort of combo that they were focused on pulling off I put away the deck that I was playing with and pull out my combo deck. It is rather difficult to explain what this means, but I imagine many players have experienced it. Pretty much anything that goes infinite – turns, mana. In most games not much really happens in the first few turns. So say a player is sitting there and playing a few ramp spells, then on turn 5 plays a mystical tutor for Tooth and Nail. Draws and plays it for Kiki and Pestermite. That player then thinks it is cute they beat everyone while the rest of us are just annoyed and have to start over after nothing happened. That was not a game it was merely a waste of time. Say we start another game and it happens again or some similar example. My example is basic, better ones exist, but I hope you get the point.
I will proceed to play combo. It is not a nanny deck. It is a statement of “look I can do it too.” Turn four or five the game is over and look I win. Repeat. The entire time I am bored doing this, but it is much better than getting to turn five through seven and instead of expecting to play a game get blown out by some infinite win combo.
Back on topic: I’m trying to show the perspective of someone who has the cards and doesn’t play them because there are better choices out there vs. the perspective of someone who doesn’t own them and feels they can’t compete unless they either acquire them or ban them to “level out” the playing field.
Tutors are powerful. They are both good and bad for the game. It all depends on how they are used. They should not be banned.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
It's not and never will be because I can't beat them, because tutor decks can be beat and are beaten. It's that the deck is boring. It plays out the same way every time. I was always under the impression that a format consisting of singleton card choices was created to increase the random occurrences of the games, thereby making the games different.
Consistency should have a price of good deck building/adding more colors, and throwing a deck together of many tutors tends to cheapen(and slow down) the experience.
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
Tutors win games because sometimes you NEED Damnation while other times you NEED Ensanguinate. Players play cards that win games.
However, there is social pressure to make playing EDH with friends more fun time expenditure than, say, Smash Bros.
My Wort the Raidmother deck was a little too good and I could hear groans and people wanting to not play with me. So I changed my Regrowths to the random Regrowths (Fossil Find, Make a Wish, Charm-breaker Devils) and changed it to a token deck instead.
When I was young and playing soccer, there was one kid who would just kick everyone in the balls and declare himself the winner. So, next game we played I kicked everyone in the balls to show him how it felt. Sure, all my friends were pissed since they got kicked in the balls twice, but at least I got to kick that kid in the balls too.
Awesome response. +1
http://forum.dragonhighlander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=261&sid=3b7e5bdbd4ae14956cd034737be29f56
I still think Imperial Seal deserves to be banned, primarily on the basis of #2. I could see tutors being banned based on #1, but I sincerely doubt that will ever happen because its extremely difficult to draw the line between the game-breakingly powerful tutors and the tutors that simply help your deck run efficiently (something we all strive for).
edit: bfellow, I honestly believe a $900 (steadily increasing) price tag is "prohibitive for most players". It's more expensive than Ancestrall Recall, Time Walk, etc.
What's next? Ban all cards that let us draw 2+ cards? Do I enjoy Skullclamping 25 times to draw my deck to combo out and win?
Might want to look up at this Imperial Seal and at number 2 again.
Also you are moving away with tutors with that example.
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
If it doesn't detract, then it ain't getting racked.
A Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor are strictly better. Would you ban Imperial Recruiter because its also expensive?
If Johnny Combo keeps kicking you in the balls, adjust your pants (deck) and play something that is more competitive, or don't play with him. I play with a ton of combo players and I love wrecking their combos with exile effects. If they win, good for them, shuffle up and the next game should be like playing archenemy.