Do you realize this would shut down not only tutors, but fetchlands, and green ramp spells?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
I do love him. He was the first legend I ever owned, and I've built some crazy recursion decks around him over the years Plus, nobody else ever plays him, so whenever I throw him down as my commander it makes everyone go, "Hey, what's that card do?"
Maybe not ban all tutors, but to help curve the 'brokeness' of tutors, maybe ban the stonger ones... Demonic Tutor Imperial Seal Vampiric Tutor Crop Rotation
Tutors like these hurt the format, and makes combo builds much stronger than they should be; so I am glad my meta does not use them :).
The tutors with drawbacks, while abuse can happen, are harder to pull off.... Beseech the Queen requires lands in play Diabolic Intent requires a sac (and yes, it can be a token ) Diabolic Tutor costs 4 mana Demonic Collusion costs 5 mana and the buyback is expensive too...
Tutors like these control themselves and I do not consider a problem.
This is absurd. Where do you draw the line between what is a strong tutor and what isn't?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
If you aren't playing in a super competitive meta you shouldn't be running every tutor possible. That said I'm very much against banning them.
There are options to hose those who rely on tutoring. Just like their are options to hose those who rely on playing all nonbasic lands. If you are running into way too many tutors throw in some hate and see if it makes a difference.
This is exactly the type of thing that house rules were meant to provide: a means to avoid cards that you and your play group for some reason contemn.
Concerning the OP's first post, EDH would be ruined for many more people than it would be saved (if EDH were saved for anyone at all with the ban).
For retired Vintage players (like me), Vintage players, or anyone at all who wants to use the tutors: we like using our tutors. We are in the majority, and we understand that they are as good as the deck itself, which can be pretty broken.
Some of us have house rules, and most (like me) outright allow the tutors. At any rate, banning tutors would be ludicrous. If play is too fast in your area for you, ask your group to slow it down. If they don't, well, then unfortunately it's majority rules, and you'll have to find a way to deal with them or something else.
As discussed here, disallowing searching libraries would be a disaster. Cultivate, Flooded Strand, Chord of Calling and a ton of random cards that might be considered tutors would be missing. Most of these cards are EDH staples, too, so the game would be significantly changed, and for the worse.
Paying 2 life extra to search is a middle ground that likely would leave no one happy. 2 life for Skyshroud Claim or Polluted Delta is unacceptable, especially for the latter, where you'll be paying 3 life in all (not that the fetches would become unplayable, IMO). There's no reason to institute such an idea other than indict tutors as overpowered. If they are overpowered, 2 life per search is not going to solve anything, and they ought then to be banned. This will not happen, of course, so the 2 life rule is unappealing to me.
Finally, if we're banning tutors, where does it stop? I have read on these forums cries of those who want "one Time Warp per deck," disallowing what are largely functional reprints in cards like Temporal Manipulation. That would be the next complaint, and I believe that these complaints would be rampant with tutors no longer around to take the blame. We'll end up banning Cultivate because it's Kodama's Reach number two in a deck. We approach the slippery slope by banning things that make decks more consistent. Unfortunately, in a format lauded for being more fun than most or all others, fun's being really subjective can drastically alter a player's perception of the format. It's important to accept that consistency will always be paramount in a singleton format; it's one of the most powerful, balanced tools that a deck can utilize.
I was thinking: One of the chief problems of the Commander format is that tutor cards are more powerful than any other format. Demonic Tutor, for example, is a much stronger card than in Legacy. So it is with this in mind that I propose the following:
Would a rule stating one of the following break the format?
Players may not search libraries.
or:
Players may not search libraries. Any player may pay 2 to ignore this for the turn.
Essentially, you are making the tutor a bit weaker by increasing the mana cost, so there's not turn 2 shenanigans. I'm in favor of the second variant, because at least you aren't completely obliterating a whole mess of cards.
Your first option would break a set number of decks. Your second option is entirely reasonable and would perhaps slow down those same number of decks to a bearable point for the players that despise those archetypes.
Go with the second option. It's fair.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
I just have a hard time asking a player to lose 2 life to use a Terramorphic Expanse or Cultivate. If you really feel the need to add a rule to "fix" your meta's tutor problem, maybe you might think about including a land exemption. Losing 8-10 life over the course of a game just to mana-fix will without doubt kill anyone's desire to play anything multi-colored.
I just have a hard time asking a player to lose 2 life to use a Terramorphic Expanse or Cultivate. If you really feel the need to add a rule to "fix" your meta's tutor problem, maybe you might think about including a land exemption.
At that point you'll need to determine which cards you exempt from the rule. Just land tutors? What about transmutes which already have a restriction? How about Gamble or Wild Research?
From what i got out of the op he is proposing a 2 mana colorless tax on tutors. I think its a horrible idea, but i think he means mana not life.
Ahhh. Well, I still dislike the proposed change and would vote against it if I were in his meta, but if that's what he meant, it's not as atrocious as I thought
I love house rules so much so that we don't have any in our playgroup unless you call the partial paris muligan first one free as a house rule. We banned consecrated sphinx for a while but we decided to run more instant speed spot removal instead and he got unbanned with a legendary while on the battlefield rider (since copy effects on a sphinx ruined many games) - now he is no longer legendary. The house rules worked for us and we have people (me) who constantly look at the health of the playgroup and assess the rules we use.
Wow, are you in my bizarro playgroup?
We have 1 free partial paris mulligan (you exile what you don't want face down, and draw the same number of cards).
Our first house ban was Consecrated Sphinx too, for about 2 months. After that, we added a legendary when in battlefield rule, removed the ban from Consecrated Sphinx, and added it to the legendary when in battlefield rule alongside Primeval Titan. This is our current rule and it seems to be going just fine so far.
So, maybe it's the same playgroup on an alternate dimension :cool2:.
I see the point. EDH is a singleton 100 card format for the purpose of making each game different. If everybody runs all these tutors and adds more consistency to their decks, they will play pretty much the same each game and that's boring right? Ultimately each playgroup has to decide on how many tutors eah deck can run if tutors are a problem.
I only have problems with tutors if a deck has many of them and is playing combo or something degenerate. If tutors would get banned I would agree with GFireflyE's assessment of the top 5 or 6. I would be ok with that. Banning every card with "search in the text box" is something I do not agree with at all. You might as well say ban green in that case. I don't have a problem with tutors at the moment and think the are fine. You are more than welcome to suggest restrictions in your playgroup to add "randomeness" to each game if you want.
I'm considering building an "anti-power EDH" deck, designed to punish non-basic lands and deck searching (ruination, stranglehold, stuff like that). Wouldn't want to play it more than once, but I suspect that the initial results would be rather amusing.
I was thinking: One of the chief problems of the Commander format is that tutor cards are more powerful than any other format. Demonic Tutor, for example, is a much stronger card than in Legacy. So it is with this in mind that I propose the following:
Would a rule stating one of the following break the format?
Players may not search libraries.
or:
Players may not search libraries. Any player may pay 2 to ignore this for the turn.
Essentially, you are making the tutor a bit weaker by increasing the mana cost, so there's not turn 2 shenanigans. I'm in favor of the second variant, because at least you aren't completely obliterating a whole mess of cards.
Tutoring is lame. I played Vig for a long time, and it's cool to have answers. However, in this format, I think you should deal with the randomness of 100 cards. It might make red better.
And I would love to play "choose your own Standard" EDH. Pick any two blocks and core set for your deck, bam, you have a format that is much more interesting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
I play a Sharuum deck with Cruel Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Personal Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Diabolic Tutor, Fabricate, Reshape, Transmute Artifact, Tezzeret the Seeker, Liliana Vess, Sphinx Summoner, Dimir Machinations, Muddle the Mixture and more psuedo-tutors that I am probably forgetting. The only reason I don't run Imperial Seal or Grim Tutor is the pricetag. Not only do I think tutors are an intergral part of the format, I think they are necessary for any sort of competitive play. Banning tutors outright is a possibility that I MIGHT consider supporting, it just depends on where you draw the line between Demonic Tutor and a card like Fierce Empath and Academy Rector. In my opinion, tutors are the strongest cards in the format, bar none (especially Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, and Imperial Seal) and I have no idea why you wouldn't play them in every deck besides availability concerns. You don't have to tutor for Bitter Ordeal or Tooth and Nail every single time, in fact it's often correct just to grab a Relic of Progenitus, Damnation or Phantasmal Image. Understanding the board state and threat assessment will get you much, much farther than playing broken combos, even if said combos are easily the best way to win in this format. A player who uses his tutors correctly will beat a player who simply tutors for win conditions over and over again 100% of the time, and I think keeping powerful tutors in the format is a way to ensure that skill, and not variance, is what determines winners in a Commander game.
edit: just for the record, Imperial Seal really, really needs to be banned. It's a shame that you can't shuffle up a deck that's as strong as it could be simply because you can't pay $900 for one card. I can understand players paying $100+ for ABUR duals, but Imperial Seal is just ridiculous at this point.
edit: just for the record, Imperial Seal really, really needs to be banned. It's a shame that you can't shuffle up a deck that's as strong as it could be simply because you can't pay $900 for one card. I can understand players paying $100+ for ABUR duals, but Imperial Seal is just ridiculous at this point.
The only card on the ban list that might actually be banned based on price is Ancestral Recall (I believe Library of Alexandria is on there for other reasons.)
Banning a card based on its “price tag” is not a valid reason. The rules committee might have stated it was in the beginning, but it does not occur in practice. None of the cards on the banned list are there strictly because of their “price tag.”
I have one dedicated combo deck I’ll play if I run into players who think combo is fun. It is sleeved up for the purpose to either educate players that that combo is not fun, discourage players from playing combo or simply let them know if they don’t want to play a fun game then I’ll combo off long before they can and make it completely unfun for them for trying to make it unfun to play against their combo in the first place.
With all of that being said I own two English Imperial Seals and two Grim Tutors. They are not auto includes in my decks. They are worse than other tutors available.
I see the point. EDH is a singleton 100 card format for the purpose of making each game different. If everybody runs all these tutors and adds more consistency to their decks, they will play pretty much the same each game and that's boring right? Ultimately each playgroup has to decide on how many tutors eah deck can run if tutors are a problem.
I only have problems with tutors if a deck has many of them and is playing combo or something degenerate. If tutors would get banned I would agree with GFireflyE's assessment of the top 5 or 6. I would be ok with that. Banning every card with "search in the text box" is something I do not agree with at all. You might as well say ban green in that case. I don't have a problem with tutors at the moment and think the are fine. You are more than welcome to suggest restrictions in your playgroup to add "randomeness" to each game if you want.
You nailed it! This was exactly what I was thinking about when I posted my 'axe the worst ones' comment.
Being able to tutor for your answer means you need less answers in your deck, allowing you to only put the best ones in your deck. The strategies become linear as you can always just tutor for your best response.
By removing some of the best tutors from the game, considerations must be made in deck design, including more, perhaps less optimal, answers; or answers that combine with other aspects of your build. example of what I mean: Instead of Krosin Grip, maybe toss in Indrik Stomphowler aswell so you can have a creature outta the deal.
Anyways, I don't think something like this can ever be considered for an EDH rule change. Even if it came to banning several tutors, that would be very unfair to a section of players of the format. IF anything were to be done, it would have to be in the form of a separate extended banlist for the casual players.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Yeah, that's why I would recommended gradually banning tutors. Start with the 1 drops.....then the 2 drops...take it from there...
That way players can slowly adjust there builds without getting a splash of cold water tossed in their face.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
This is absurd. Where do you draw the line between what is a strong tutor and what isn't?
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
There are options to hose those who rely on tutoring. Just like their are options to hose those who rely on playing all nonbasic lands. If you are running into way too many tutors throw in some hate and see if it makes a difference.
Now Playing:
Legacy - The Gate
Modern - U/W Gifts Tron, U/W Tron
Standard - Nothing
Gallery
PM me for Commissions
GBU The Mimeoplasm Combo EDH
Concerning the OP's first post, EDH would be ruined for many more people than it would be saved (if EDH were saved for anyone at all with the ban).
For retired Vintage players (like me), Vintage players, or anyone at all who wants to use the tutors: we like using our tutors. We are in the majority, and we understand that they are as good as the deck itself, which can be pretty broken.
Some of us have house rules, and most (like me) outright allow the tutors. At any rate, banning tutors would be ludicrous. If play is too fast in your area for you, ask your group to slow it down. If they don't, well, then unfortunately it's majority rules, and you'll have to find a way to deal with them or something else.
As discussed here, disallowing searching libraries would be a disaster. Cultivate, Flooded Strand, Chord of Calling and a ton of random cards that might be considered tutors would be missing. Most of these cards are EDH staples, too, so the game would be significantly changed, and for the worse.
Paying 2 life extra to search is a middle ground that likely would leave no one happy. 2 life for Skyshroud Claim or Polluted Delta is unacceptable, especially for the latter, where you'll be paying 3 life in all (not that the fetches would become unplayable, IMO). There's no reason to institute such an idea other than indict tutors as overpowered. If they are overpowered, 2 life per search is not going to solve anything, and they ought then to be banned. This will not happen, of course, so the 2 life rule is unappealing to me.
Finally, if we're banning tutors, where does it stop? I have read on these forums cries of those who want "one Time Warp per deck," disallowing what are largely functional reprints in cards like Temporal Manipulation. That would be the next complaint, and I believe that these complaints would be rampant with tutors no longer around to take the blame. We'll end up banning Cultivate because it's Kodama's Reach number two in a deck. We approach the slippery slope by banning things that make decks more consistent. Unfortunately, in a format lauded for being more fun than most or all others, fun's being really subjective can drastically alter a player's perception of the format. It's important to accept that consistency will always be paramount in a singleton format; it's one of the most powerful, balanced tools that a deck can utilize.
Your first option would break a set number of decks. Your second option is entirely reasonable and would perhaps slow down those same number of decks to a bearable point for the players that despise those archetypes.
Go with the second option. It's fair.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
At that point you'll need to determine which cards you exempt from the rule. Just land tutors? What about transmutes which already have a restriction? How about Gamble or Wild Research?
But you're only supposed to splash them!
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Ahhh. Well, I still dislike the proposed change and would vote against it if I were in his meta, but if that's what he meant, it's not as atrocious as I thought
Wow, are you in my bizarro playgroup?
We have 1 free partial paris mulligan (you exile what you don't want face down, and draw the same number of cards).
Our first house ban was Consecrated Sphinx too, for about 2 months. After that, we added a legendary when in battlefield rule, removed the ban from Consecrated Sphinx, and added it to the legendary when in battlefield rule alongside Primeval Titan. This is our current rule and it seems to be going just fine so far.
So, maybe it's the same playgroup on an alternate dimension :cool2:.
I only have problems with tutors if a deck has many of them and is playing combo or something degenerate. If tutors would get banned I would agree with GFireflyE's assessment of the top 5 or 6. I would be ok with that. Banning every card with "search in the text box" is something I do not agree with at all. You might as well say ban green in that case. I don't have a problem with tutors at the moment and think the are fine. You are more than welcome to suggest restrictions in your playgroup to add "randomeness" to each game if you want.
My Saffi deck
No, just no.
sig by DarkNightCavalier
Avatar by perv90210.
Currently Running
Cryffyl
I don't like combo, though.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
And I would love to play "choose your own Standard" EDH. Pick any two blocks and core set for your deck, bam, you have a format that is much more interesting.
edit: just for the record, Imperial Seal really, really needs to be banned. It's a shame that you can't shuffle up a deck that's as strong as it could be simply because you can't pay $900 for one card. I can understand players paying $100+ for ABUR duals, but Imperial Seal is just ridiculous at this point.
The only card on the ban list that might actually be banned based on price is Ancestral Recall (I believe Library of Alexandria is on there for other reasons.)
Banning a card based on its “price tag” is not a valid reason. The rules committee might have stated it was in the beginning, but it does not occur in practice. None of the cards on the banned list are there strictly because of their “price tag.”
Keep in mind that Vampiric Tutor is strictly better than Imperial Seal and that Demonic Tutor is strictly better than Grim Tutor.
I have one dedicated combo deck I’ll play if I run into players who think combo is fun. It is sleeved up for the purpose to either educate players that that combo is not fun, discourage players from playing combo or simply let them know if they don’t want to play a fun game then I’ll combo off long before they can and make it completely unfun for them for trying to make it unfun to play against their combo in the first place.
With all of that being said I own two English Imperial Seals and two Grim Tutors. They are not auto includes in my decks. They are worse than other tutors available.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
You nailed it! This was exactly what I was thinking about when I posted my 'axe the worst ones' comment.
Being able to tutor for your answer means you need less answers in your deck, allowing you to only put the best ones in your deck. The strategies become linear as you can always just tutor for your best response.
By removing some of the best tutors from the game, considerations must be made in deck design, including more, perhaps less optimal, answers; or answers that combine with other aspects of your build. example of what I mean: Instead of Krosin Grip, maybe toss in Indrik Stomphowler aswell so you can have a creature outta the deal.
Anyways, I don't think something like this can ever be considered for an EDH rule change. Even if it came to banning several tutors, that would be very unfair to a section of players of the format. IF anything were to be done, it would have to be in the form of a separate extended banlist for the casual players.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU