Concerning the banned list, I have lots of suggestions, mostly based on jarring inconsistencies, bad rules design, or simply the unwarranted prejudice of the official team against "money" cards.
To Ban:
--Arena of the Ancients--
This one should go on for the same reason that Karakas should stay on forever: this format should not be about abusing the rules but rather about the spirit of the rules.
I can't agree with this vs. Karakas, mostly because at least with Arena if you cast your commander after it hits the board you can swing once with it(and swing indefinitely if you have vigilance), it hits everyone's commander equally so it isn't as one-sided as karakas, and if you destroy it on your endstep you get to untap and do tricks with your commander before someone could rerez it(barring Goblin Welder tricks). Compare that with Karakas where if you destroy it all you can really do is recast your commander to get it bounced again when they rerez Karakas.
--Iona, Shield of Emeria--
See Arena of the Ancients. It allows rules abuse because the extra knowledge of your opponent's potential colours is probably unfair, so it should be banned just to set precedent.
I personally don't agree with banning cards merely to set a precedent. With Painter's Servant banned Iona is merely annoying(unless you're mono coloured), not busted. If you hate playing vs Iona, ban her in your local playgroup.(Actually don't do this, run answers to her like Brittle Effigy, Nevinyrral's Disk and Oblivion Stone)
--Necropotence--
Seriously, why ban Yawgmoth's Bargain and not this? Both are banned in Legacy for good reason. Either ban both or unban both, what I hate here is the inconsistency. You could make a similar comment about Gifts Ungiven and Intuition.
Yawgmoth's Bargain is much, much more powerful than Necropotence. Besides being much easier to splash you get the cards at instant speed, whereas with necro you have a very awkward timing restriction. Bargain also allows for discard shenanigans which set up ridiculous graveyard abuse, Necro has a built in stop for that. Necro is powerful for sure, but nowhere near as busted as bargain.
--Sol Ring / Mana Crypt--
Again, either unban the Moxen or ban these. The only reason I can think that these were not knee-jerk banned is that they are not worth hundreds of dollars. Fiscal value should not be a consideration for a casual banned list! Sol Ring will not be banned because WotC put them into the commander precons but that does not mean that it shouldn't be banned.
To Unban:
--Black Lotus--
Yes, I'm serious. The decks that want to abuse Lotus already do so with Sun Titan + Lotus Bloom, and it is mostly outclassed by Gilded Lotus in multiplayer anyway. How many decks even run Dark Ritual? I'd much rather have Black Lotus legal and Sol Ring banned.
Personally, I see commander as a mostly casual format. Competetive play does exsist and some people enjoy it that way. Allowing for the full power of broken mana rocks would really skew the format into play-with-a-5-colour-general-or-die imo, as well as keep some people from playing at that level due to cost restrictions. As for sol ring mana crypt, allowing two really good mana rocks gives everyone access to some pretty decent acceleration, doesn't warp the format and as far as I can see leads to some exciting plays. Also, unbanning Black Lotus leads to some really silly first turn plays with Auriok Salvagers, escpecially with moxes presumably being unbanned as well. I'm kind of interested in why you left Lion's Eye Diamond of that list of mana rocks.
As a side note can anyone explain to me why Mishra's Workshop remains unbanned? I'm not actually arguing for banning it, but if the moxen/lotus are banned for powerlevel/cost, it seems to me that it would be reasonable to ban it for powerlevel/consistency issues. I guess it hasn't warped the format yet, but in a artifact heavy deck it seems super powerful.
--Library of Alexandria--
Anyone who thinks that this card poses any kind of a problem in 99 card singleton multiplayer has never played with it. A prime example of malicious banning out of financial jealousy. Hilarious that they forgot about Bazaar of Baghdad when putting this on.
An early Library is an incredibly devastating play in multiplayer. Repeatable card draw that's uncounterable and also functions as a land drop? Broken beyond belief. I can see an argument for banning Bazaar, though I haven't seen any lists that truly bust it. It's not like dredge is as fearsome a mechanic in commander as it is in vintage/legacy.
To Keep Banned / Unbanned:
--Kokusho, the Evening Star--
This should remain banned, mostly for its interaction with a kicked Rite of Replication, Mimic Vat with a sac outlet, or even just Necropotence. It is banned for the same reasons as Emrakul; that games devolve into control / reanimate / copy that creature and very little else. If you're cool with the game acting like every player has cast an epic spell or Dovescape or somesuch then go for it. I would rather see Exsanguinate banned than this removed.
I really think Kokusho should be unbanned. As a single creature it really isn't that broken. Sure a kicked rite of replication is nasty, but that's what- a 15 mana two card combo that is fairly easy to disrupt? There are plenty of answers to Kokusho. I also don't see the problem with him being a commander- remember that his graveyard trigger won't trigger if you put him in the command zone.
--Karakas--
Keep it banned for all the reasons that everyone has already pointed out, plus Mangara of Corondor interaction.
Yes. Karakas is busted in this format in very unfair and unfun ways(How many people actually play with Thrun, the Last Troll as a commander?), keep it banned.
--Imperial Seal / Mana Drain--
Cards should not be banned for their price tag alone. Seal is a worse Vampiric Tutor and Drain as a one-of is swingy but hardly broken. Keep them off the list.
Other than price I don't see the point in banning Seal either, a strictly worse vamp tutor that allows for people to mess with your library before you get the card seems not that good. I suppose it allows for more redundancy for combo decks, but I don't see it as ban worthy. As for Mana Drain, I find one shot effects that don't actually win the game right there(looking at you Coalition Victory) to be managable in this format, sure as you said it's swingy but not broken- keep it off.
If your objective is just to find what kind of consensus there is on the ban list among people on an internet forum, I think you'll get similar results to asking the public about one of these questions:
- Do you like the Packers or Vikings more?
- Do you like the Republicans or Democrats more?
- Are you pro-choice or pro-life?
Sociological studies have shown that for questions like this, you'll typically end up with 40% of people on each side believe their point of view but are absolutely unwilling to change it. (Note that this is not the same as saying they have no rational argument for their belief. It's just that they don't listen to or rationalize away counter-arguments.) The middle 20% has some sway on which side they support. You inevitably end up with splits in the 45% to 55% range. I doubt you'll find anything different here.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
A quick breakdown of the most often broken combo pieces show that they tend to convert one type of resource into another, often in such a way to fuel itself. No card does that better these two. Further that into both of these cards don't lend themselves to use outside of degenerate situations.
Uh... how is hulk stronger than, say, intuition? Please edify me.
Because Hulk is a one card combo that wins on the spot. At least with Intuition, yes, you can search for a combo piece and 2 ways to recur it, but you still have to work at it. Hulk just says "lol I win".
Uh... how is hulk stronger than, say, intuition? Please edify me.
Step 1. Search for Hulk (Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Sylvan Tutor, Eladamri's Call, Altar of Bone, Grim Tutor, Fauna Shaman, Survival, ect, ect, ect)
Step 2. Cheat Hulk into play (Through the Breach, Flash, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Elvish Piper, Quicksilver Amulet, ect, ect, ect)
Step 3. Kill Hulk (Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Tower, Claws of Gix, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Damnation, Wrath of God, ect, ect, ect)
Step 4. Win the game ('Lark loop, Ooze combo, SplinterWin, ect, ect, ect)
You can indeed combine parts 2 and 3, or even 1, 2, and 3. There are literally a thousand ways to find hulk, to play it, and then kill it while your opponent can't do anything about it. There are dozens of low-cmc combos that the hulk automatically pulls out. Once one of these hit, you lose. All for killing a 7 mana creature.
If you arent playing vs white decks, you literally cannot lose once hulk has resolved. It's too powerful. Not to mention you can easily recur it to do a different combo should someone interrupt the first round.
It's quicker and more dangerous than most of the combos available today, and is plain unfun. The game WILL degenerate to a battle to see if hulk lives, dies, or gets exiled.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
If your objective is just to find what kind of consensus there is on the ban list among people on an internet forum, I think you'll get similar results to asking the public about one of these questions:
- Do you like the Packers or Vikings more?
- Do you like the Republicans or Democrats more?
- Are you pro-choice or pro-life?
Sociological studies have shown that for questions like this, you'll typically end up with 40% of people on each side believe their point of view but are absolutely unwilling to change it. (Note that this is not the same as saying they have no rational argument for their belief. It's just that they don't listen to or rationalize away counter-arguments.) The middle 20% has some sway on which side they support. You inevitably end up with splits in the 45% to 55% range. I doubt you'll find anything different here.
You may be right, and I'm inclined to believe that you are indeed, but I feel as though not doing anything is worse than at least trying to gauge the results in a sort of democratic experiment.
Since the inception of the Official Banlist Discussion thread, people have been arguing over and over as to why this should be banned or this should be removed without any true results. I don't even think the RC knows (or cares) that we even have such a thread and that we have gone to such lengths to argue certain things. At least here we have a clear, democratic, and (hopefully) unbiased statement as to the EDH community's position on the banlist. I know it's not much, but if I were a member of the RC, I would rather take a look at one page than read through the hundreds in the Official Banlist Discussion thread.
I'm not guaranteeing change. In fact, it could very well be that nothing will change and the RC will never see eye to eye with the community. At least we are presenting our beliefs in a form that is obvious and not completely biased or irrational.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
If I were a member of the RC, I'd just ask Erik Lauer what to do and assume he'd be right 70% of the time. Then use testing to determine which 70% of his suggestions to take. But that's just me.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
as Dramaturtle said at least theirs its being looked at rationally (for the most part). This thread should be looked at as "food for thought" rather than a decree being passed down by random people on the internet.
Banning Cradle/Coffers makes sense. I think there are worthwhile arguments for keeping/banning both, but if we're going to take a hard stance on degenerate mana producers as a community, keeping two offenders who are arguably worse than Tolarian Academy unbanned is moronic.
If we're keeping Painter's Servant banned due to it's most well known interactions, then we should also ban Squirrel's Nest, Future Sight, Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph,Karmic Guide, Saffi Eriksdotter, Sharuum, The Hegemon and any other multi-purpose card even remotely associated with a "broken" combo of any sorts. Clearly, this is much easier than simply disrupting said combos for the community at large. Why bawww when we can ban, amirite? However, were we to un-ban Painter hypothetically, I would enjoy seeing someone write why it's important to asses the actual power level of certain cards individually than by a "OMFG COMBO COMBO COMBO" basis.
We should also unban all the moxen, Black Lotus, and other several thousand dollar cards. That way, the demand would go up, I could hawk mine, and buy an island nation. This would also reduce the communities hatred towards proxies, which has been a barrier for some players in the past.
The rest of the list suggested in the OP is fine.
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Actual Truth:
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Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
If you arent playing vs white decks, you literally cannot lose once hulk has resolved.
This is the only part of that whole post that's even close to a good reason for it to be banned, and the thing costs 8.
You need ways to cheat it in AND get it to trigger to win. As far as I can tell this going to take hulk and at least one card, so the argument that it's a "1-card combo" falls flat.
Furthermore: How is hulk better than, say, tooth and nail?
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Oh! True! But did you consider the fact that tooth and nail is a sorcery?
The fact that it's a creature is what makes it worse. Because it's so much easier to recur and break over and over(even though it only needs one use to break and win).
Oh! True! But did you consider the fact that tooth and nail is a sorcery?
The fact that it's a creature is what makes it worse. Because it's so much easier to recur and break over and over(even though it only needs one use to break and win).
While its true that it is easier to recur creatures than spells, the biggest problem isn't recurring, both spells will win the game on a single resolution. The issue comes in that it is far easier to cheat a creature out for cheaper (recurring, or otherwise) than a spell.
From Flash, which is what broke it the first time, to Natural Order which will tutor it for you, to Sneak Attack, to entomb/exhume combos, there are ways to get the hulk into play on significantly less mana than a T&N.
That also helps to limit the responses your opponents have.
It's hard to counterspell on only 1 land, and even harder when you don't have any.
Kokusho should come off. Painter's servant should definitely remain banned as it is a very good card on its own and part of a two card combo which is easy to tutor, fits into every deck, and wins the game. Hermit druid is a one-card combo, so it should be on the banlist.
Banning Cradle/Coffers makes sense. I think there are worthwhile arguments for keeping/banning both, but if we're going to take a hard stance on degenerate mana producers as a community, keeping two offenders who are arguably worse than Tolarian Academy unbanned is moronic.
Coffers is too slow to be remotely compared to Academy, it isn't even in the same league. There is no way in which coffers can be called worse than Academy. With Cradle it can get as broken as Academy, but creatures are the easiest thing to answer in this format, and I think that keep that in check. I don't think you can seriously say that Cradle is worse than Academy either, as academy is in the more broken colour and it's support is also far more crazy.
If we're keeping Painter's Servant banned due to it's most well known interactions, then we should also ban Squirrel's Nest, Future Sight, Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph,Karmic Guide, Saffi Eriksdotter, Sharuum, The Hegemon and any other multi-purpose card even remotely associated with a "broken" combo of any sorts. Clearly, this is much easier than simply disrupting said combos for the community at large. Why bawww when we can ban, amirite? However, were we to un-ban Painter hypothetically, I would enjoy seeing someone write why it's important to asses the actual power level of certain cards individually than by a "OMFG COMBO COMBO COMBO" basis.
I think Servant is banned because it has multiple powerful combos associated with it(Iona and Grindstone), is easily tutored in multiple colours and is cheaper than virtually all the cards you mentioned other than Saffi. Also, all those combos you mentioned are more easily disruptable than Servant. I firmly agree with the banning of Servant, as an enabler it is far too powerful.
Just an idea but if we are going to make a mtgs ban list why cant we just make two separate lists? It seems like there is a massive difference in opinions of banned lists. As this is a casual format and we are making an unsanctioned banned list why not make a "competitive EDH banned list" and a "casual EDH banned list". Would this not solve the issue of the more casual players crying out for a larger banned list while allowing those more competitive players the use of a banned list they could more respect?
This would allow both sides to be happy. Chances are certain cards would make it onto both lists. The real differences is where a competitive player would cry bloody murder over a 100 card banned list I bet you most casual players wouldn't care in the slightest. Really a 100 card banned list is probably 1/2% of all the cards ever printed anyway.
Also, how can Tolarian Academy be less broken?!? Generating tons of U for ramping in a color whose advantages of card drawing, extra turns, and counters seems ridiculous
I think it's fair to say that once we get to 10 positive votes for any one card, I will post and state changes to the main list. If people generally agree, the change will be made.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Shouldn't be added: Hermit Druid (fine when used responsibly) -> When is it used responsibly? Imperial Seal - No opinion. Intuition - I could see either banning or no banning. Palinchron - Eh...it takes multiple cards to go infinite, right? So yeah, I guess not adding him. Cabal Coffers - Been covered, it's not that crazy strong. Gaea's Cradle - Like superpositioned said, creatures are much easier to handle than artifacts, and G probably can't do as many broken things as U.Or something. You know what I'm saying, right?... Mishra's Workshop - This one I could see being banned. Like Metalworker, it's too much fast mana. Almost inevitably for Blue, since it does the most with artifacts. Dream Halls - Either you're playing 5C or it's just a cost reducer, so yeah, doesn't need to get the axe.
Ban: Iona, Shield of Emeria - 9 mana creature, that won't always completely lock out the table, due to multiple players and colors. For 9 mana, you'd better be doing something crazy. Don't ban. Grindstone (if Painter's Servant is unbanned) - The general MtG leadership stance is to ban the enabler, not all the pieces it enables. Which is what you're suggesting, giving us a stupid good enabler, but banning all the peeps it interacts with.
Shouldn't be removed: - Agreed. Karakas Sway of the Stars (restarting the game is worse than ending the game)
I would usually agree but Commander always struck me as being about the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. Iona and Arena of the Ancients both break this paradigm. I personally have no power level concerns about either (and I play Karn Liberated and All Is Dust for Iona).
It's just that I see Karakas as violating the spirit by being too one-sided, whereas with Arena of the Ancients the effect is symetrical. Sure you could build around it but it's not as devastaing as Karakas. Plus I want to throw one in my Zedru deck, so I may be biased there.
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I can't agree with this vs. Karakas, mostly because at least with Arena if you cast your commander after it hits the board you can swing once with it(and swing indefinitely if you have vigilance), it hits everyone's commander equally so it isn't as one-sided as karakas, and if you destroy it on your endstep you get to untap and do tricks with your commander before someone could rerez it(barring Goblin Welder tricks). Compare that with Karakas where if you destroy it all you can really do is recast your commander to get it bounced again when they rerez Karakas.
I personally don't agree with banning cards merely to set a precedent. With Painter's Servant banned Iona is merely annoying(unless you're mono coloured), not busted. If you hate playing vs Iona, ban her in your local playgroup.(Actually don't do this, run answers to her like Brittle Effigy, Nevinyrral's Disk and Oblivion Stone)
Yawgmoth's Bargain is much, much more powerful than Necropotence. Besides being much easier to splash you get the cards at instant speed, whereas with necro you have a very awkward timing restriction. Bargain also allows for discard shenanigans which set up ridiculous graveyard abuse, Necro has a built in stop for that. Necro is powerful for sure, but nowhere near as busted as bargain.
Personally, I see commander as a mostly casual format. Competetive play does exsist and some people enjoy it that way. Allowing for the full power of broken mana rocks would really skew the format into play-with-a-5-colour-general-or-die imo, as well as keep some people from playing at that level due to cost restrictions. As for sol ring mana crypt, allowing two really good mana rocks gives everyone access to some pretty decent acceleration, doesn't warp the format and as far as I can see leads to some exciting plays. Also, unbanning Black Lotus leads to some really silly first turn plays with Auriok Salvagers, escpecially with moxes presumably being unbanned as well. I'm kind of interested in why you left Lion's Eye Diamond of that list of mana rocks.
As a side note can anyone explain to me why Mishra's Workshop remains unbanned? I'm not actually arguing for banning it, but if the moxen/lotus are banned for powerlevel/cost, it seems to me that it would be reasonable to ban it for powerlevel/consistency issues. I guess it hasn't warped the format yet, but in a artifact heavy deck it seems super powerful.
An early Library is an incredibly devastating play in multiplayer. Repeatable card draw that's uncounterable and also functions as a land drop? Broken beyond belief. I can see an argument for banning Bazaar, though I haven't seen any lists that truly bust it. It's not like dredge is as fearsome a mechanic in commander as it is in vintage/legacy.
I really think Kokusho should be unbanned. As a single creature it really isn't that broken. Sure a kicked rite of replication is nasty, but that's what- a 15 mana two card combo that is fairly easy to disrupt? There are plenty of answers to Kokusho. I also don't see the problem with him being a commander- remember that his graveyard trigger won't trigger if you put him in the command zone.
Yes. Karakas is busted in this format in very unfair and unfun ways(How many people actually play with Thrun, the Last Troll as a commander?), keep it banned.
Other than price I don't see the point in banning Seal either, a strictly worse vamp tutor that allows for people to mess with your library before you get the card seems not that good. I suppose it allows for more redundancy for combo decks, but I don't see it as ban worthy. As for Mana Drain, I find one shot effects that don't actually win the game right there(looking at you Coalition Victory) to be managable in this format, sure as you said it's swingy but not broken- keep it off.
- Do you like the Packers or Vikings more?
- Do you like the Republicans or Democrats more?
- Are you pro-choice or pro-life?
Sociological studies have shown that for questions like this, you'll typically end up with 40% of people on each side believe their point of view but are absolutely unwilling to change it. (Note that this is not the same as saying they have no rational argument for their belief. It's just that they don't listen to or rationalize away counter-arguments.) The middle 20% has some sway on which side they support. You inevitably end up with splits in the 45% to 55% range. I doubt you'll find anything different here.
Mind Over Matter
Dream Halls
A quick breakdown of the most often broken combo pieces show that they tend to convert one type of resource into another, often in such a way to fuel itself. No card does that better these two. Further that into both of these cards don't lend themselves to use outside of degenerate situations.
Vote to keep Hulk banned.
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Because Hulk is a one card combo that wins on the spot. At least with Intuition, yes, you can search for a combo piece and 2 ways to recur it, but you still have to work at it. Hulk just says "lol I win".
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Step 1. Search for Hulk (Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Sylvan Tutor, Eladamri's Call, Altar of Bone, Grim Tutor, Fauna Shaman, Survival, ect, ect, ect)
Step 2. Cheat Hulk into play (Through the Breach, Flash, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Elvish Piper, Quicksilver Amulet, ect, ect, ect)
Step 3. Kill Hulk (Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Tower, Claws of Gix, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Damnation, Wrath of God, ect, ect, ect)
Step 4. Win the game ('Lark loop, Ooze combo, SplinterWin, ect, ect, ect)
You can indeed combine parts 2 and 3, or even 1, 2, and 3. There are literally a thousand ways to find hulk, to play it, and then kill it while your opponent can't do anything about it. There are dozens of low-cmc combos that the hulk automatically pulls out. Once one of these hit, you lose. All for killing a 7 mana creature.
If you arent playing vs white decks, you literally cannot lose once hulk has resolved. It's too powerful. Not to mention you can easily recur it to do a different combo should someone interrupt the first round.
It's quicker and more dangerous than most of the combos available today, and is plain unfun. The game WILL degenerate to a battle to see if hulk lives, dies, or gets exiled.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
You may be right, and I'm inclined to believe that you are indeed, but I feel as though not doing anything is worse than at least trying to gauge the results in a sort of democratic experiment.
Since the inception of the Official Banlist Discussion thread, people have been arguing over and over as to why this should be banned or this should be removed without any true results. I don't even think the RC knows (or cares) that we even have such a thread and that we have gone to such lengths to argue certain things. At least here we have a clear, democratic, and (hopefully) unbiased statement as to the EDH community's position on the banlist. I know it's not much, but if I were a member of the RC, I would rather take a look at one page than read through the hundreds in the Official Banlist Discussion thread.
I'm not guaranteeing change. In fact, it could very well be that nothing will change and the RC will never see eye to eye with the community. At least we are presenting our beliefs in a form that is obvious and not completely biased or irrational.
At least, that's how I see it.
I would be more concerned with the format if they cared about that thread than if they didn't.
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If we're keeping Painter's Servant banned due to it's most well known interactions, then we should also ban Squirrel's Nest, Future Sight, Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph,Karmic Guide, Saffi Eriksdotter, Sharuum, The Hegemon and any other multi-purpose card even remotely associated with a "broken" combo of any sorts. Clearly, this is much easier than simply disrupting said combos for the community at large. Why bawww when we can ban, amirite? However, were we to un-ban Painter hypothetically, I would enjoy seeing someone write why it's important to asses the actual power level of certain cards individually than by a "OMFG COMBO COMBO COMBO" basis.
We should also unban all the moxen, Black Lotus, and other several thousand dollar cards. That way, the demand would go up, I could hawk mine, and buy an island nation. This would also reduce the communities hatred towards proxies, which has been a barrier for some players in the past.
The rest of the list suggested in the OP is fine.
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This is the only part of that whole post that's even close to a good reason for it to be banned, and the thing costs 8.
You need ways to cheat it in AND get it to trigger to win. As far as I can tell this going to take hulk and at least one card, so the argument that it's a "1-card combo" falls flat.
Furthermore: How is hulk better than, say, tooth and nail?
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It's a creature.
Wizards will never, ever accept proxies. NEVER. So, there's no reason to even try and make this absurd argument.
Oh! True! But did you consider the fact that tooth and nail is a sorcery?
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The fact that it's a creature is what makes it worse. Because it's so much easier to recur and break over and over(even though it only needs one use to break and win).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
While its true that it is easier to recur creatures than spells, the biggest problem isn't recurring, both spells will win the game on a single resolution. The issue comes in that it is far easier to cheat a creature out for cheaper (recurring, or otherwise) than a spell.
From Flash, which is what broke it the first time, to Natural Order which will tutor it for you, to Sneak Attack, to entomb/exhume combos, there are ways to get the hulk into play on significantly less mana than a T&N.
That also helps to limit the responses your opponents have.
It's hard to counterspell on only 1 land, and even harder when you don't have any.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Coffers is too slow to be remotely compared to Academy, it isn't even in the same league. There is no way in which coffers can be called worse than Academy. With Cradle it can get as broken as Academy, but creatures are the easiest thing to answer in this format, and I think that keep that in check. I don't think you can seriously say that Cradle is worse than Academy either, as academy is in the more broken colour and it's support is also far more crazy.
I think Servant is banned because it has multiple powerful combos associated with it(Iona and Grindstone), is easily tutored in multiple colours and is cheaper than virtually all the cards you mentioned other than Saffi. Also, all those combos you mentioned are more easily disruptable than Servant. I firmly agree with the banning of Servant, as an enabler it is far too powerful.
This would allow both sides to be happy. Chances are certain cards would make it onto both lists. The real differences is where a competitive player would cry bloody murder over a 100 card banned list I bet you most casual players wouldn't care in the slightest. Really a 100 card banned list is probably 1/2% of all the cards ever printed anyway.
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
Black Lotus needs to stay banned. Sure it leads to broken combos that already exists but not on turn 1.
Mishra's Workshop is kind of narrow but its not as horrid as Gaea's Cradle.
Also, how can Tolarian Academy be less broken?!? Generating tons of U for ramping in a color whose advantages of card drawing, extra turns, and counters seems ridiculous
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Painter's Servant
Staff of Domination
Shouldn't be added:
Hermit Druid (fine when used responsibly)
Imperial Seal (not as high profile as the power 8, so cost doesn't matter)
Intuition
Palinchron
Cabal Coffers
Gaea's Cradle
Mishra's Workshop
Dream Halls
Ban:
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Grindstone (if Painter's Servant is unbanned)
Shouldn't be removed:
Karakas
Sway of the Stars (restarting the game is worse than ending the game)
In my opinion.
My responses to your post
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
It's just that I see Karakas as violating the spirit by being too one-sided, whereas with Arena of the Ancients the effect is symetrical. Sure you could build around it but it's not as devastaing as Karakas. Plus I want to throw one in my Zedru deck, so I may be biased there.