If DramaTurtle stays on top of it and updates, and if we can actually reach any kind of consensus, I could see this remaining separate from the banlist discussion thread. Those are both pretty big ifs, though.
On the topic of banlist edits, I want to propose Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Out of all the fast mana, these are far and away the most broken. Sol Ring is essentially another land drop on the turn in which it's played, and double after that. Mana Crypt is the same, but with a minor drawback. An early Sol Ring or Mana Crypt (or, god forbid, both) puts the caster significantly ahead of the table.
I actually like both of these, play them, and think they contribute to the format, but there's definitely an argument for banning them. Also, it was bound to come up sooner or later, so it might as well be sooner.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
so I'm not entirely keeping up with how drama is tabulating these things, but perhaps whenever a card is suggested he put it on the table, and if anyone agrees with that prospective ban or unban, they could like it, otherwise they could dislike it, and he would just keep a tab of how many likes and dislikes each card gets? Although that could be hard.... IF you decide to do that idea I'd have to agree with the idea of banning Palinchron though...
I think Painter's Servant should be legal but two conditions should be added: Grindstone should be banned Iona, Shield of Emeria should be banned
Before people start talking about wanting a smaller banlist rather than a larger one, the only REAL difference is Iona. No one plays grindstone without servant, so when they banned servant they effectively banned stone too. So in a way it's only a net change of one.
Hm, this is a tough one. Painter's Servant is already on the list to be removed. I suppose I could add Iona to the "Added" list for now, given that Grindstone is pretty reliant on other cards being there or not.
so I'm not entirely keeping up with how drama is tabulating these things, but perhaps whenever a card is suggested he put it on the table, and if anyone agrees with that prospective ban or unban, they could like it, otherwise they could dislike it, and he would just keep a tab of how many likes and dislikes each card gets? Although that could be hard.... IF you decide to do that idea I'd have to agree with the idea of banning Palinchron though...
Yeah, I was thinking about doing something like that. It would be tough. For now, I'm relying on simple consensus. When I eventually make changes to the list, I will announce it first.
I was thinking of maybe putting numbers next to each card denoting how many times they've been mentioned. +1 for approval, -1 for disapproval. Then again, we'd have to find at what number of approval votes a card should be added into or removed from the actual list, and how negative net votes should be considered. For now, this is all very tentative on how popular this thread becomes. If it really starts buzzing around here, I'll probably go through and do a mental count after a while and post the results.
We'll see.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I've always found it interesting that Tinker is banned and Transmute Artifact is not. Yes there are slight differences but still, they are very similar.
If anything this would be more pro removing tinker from the list than adding Transmute. But I understand why tinker is there.
I'm unsure of the logic of taking Karakas off the list, could someone explain that to me? It just seems that it's a little too effective in a format based off legendary creatures. If your commander can never impact the board in a meaningful way because of one land that seems like a problem to me.
Karakas can only be played in white decks, targets, can't deal with everyone's general unless you're also running Seedborn Muse or something, and bounces, meaning the tax doesn't increase. I'd be down to try Karakas off the list for a while, though it would have to be watched.
On that note, how do we see if all of this actually does anything? I'd be willing to play games with a community banlist if there were other people willing to do so (after the next three weeks, but that's a different story). Discussion and changes are nice, but there has to be some metric to see if it actually makes any kind of difference.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
It hasn't been mentioned yet but Karakas to me is one of those never see the light of day in commander type cards. It is a card that makes every white deck significantly better and it would do to decks and games what Tolarian Academy did. Decks will run ways to tutor it, recur it, protect it and put in more legendaries because they are protected by it.
Hermit Druid shoud go on the list because it poses similar problems to protean hulk
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
I've always found it interesting that Tinker is banned and Transmute Artifact is not. Yes there are slight differences but still, they are very similar.
If anything this would be more pro removing tinker from the list than adding Transmute. But I understand why tinker is there.
Cabal Coffers - This really shouldn't be an issue. It is only fantastic in Mono Black decks. In any other color combination, Coffers gets progressively worse the more colors you add. Yes, it goes great with Urborg. Strip Mine also goes great with either of these. So does Wasteland. Tectonic Edge.
Coffers really doesnt do anything dangerous until late in the game, when it should have already been blown up by land destruction. If you are complaining about the massive amount of mana generated and then used to kill everyone with Exsanguinate... Well, don't let the mono B player keep coffers.
------------------------------------------------------ Gaea's Cradle - This is a different story. Coffers is good only later on, after a large number of lands have been played. Cradle turns on the moment you drop a creature, and from there on grows at an extreme rate until you out-tempo and out-mana everyone. Where Coffers is easily stopped by land destruction, for a large amountof time - Cradle dies only to wraths, and only up to a critical time until it really doesnt matter as the cradle player can easily get so far ahead no one can touch him.
While I don't believe Cradle should be banned, I would defenitely put it on a watchlist. Not Coffers. Coffers is a joke.
---------------------------------------------------- Kokusho, the Evening Star - This suffers the same problem Palinchron does, in that it is a creature, and therefore extremely easy to abuse. However, Kokusho shouldn't be banned for an entirely different reason, that being... Life Totals Don't Matter.
Very few games of EDH are decided by 5-10 life points. While races do indeed happen, they rarely occur outside of 1v1. Kokusho is a fixed exsanguinate. Yes, you can reanimate him. Yes, you can cheat him into play. These are all valid points. However, there are very simple solutions to stopping Kokusho if he is really that much of an issue, for all colors.
Kokusho just isn't the same beatstick he used to be. Unban him.
---------------------------------------- Metalworker - I'm an advocate to keep him banned. Firstly, he can generate obscene amounts of mana extremely quickly, as well as get more tempo than you'll ever need.
How does he work?
Cast it. Next turn, activate it, revealing your hand full of mana rocks and Planar Portal. Play Mana rocks and portal. With the massive amount of excess mana you have, search for Memory Jar.
Next turn, cast jar. Crack. Metalworker again. Oh, look - your hand is mana rocks again. Cast them all. Portal for "Boom Stick" ..GG
He should never see the light of day. Think Tolarian Academy on a stick.
---------------------------------------------------- Karakas - Just no. This is an automatic addition for any w/x deck, and defeats the entire purpose of the format. Permanent general lock, shenanigans with ETB Legends or other such toys. Just.. no. Keep it banned.
------------------------------------------------------ Sway of the Stars - This should remain banned for the simple reason it doesn't do anything but cause games to go on for hours more (think Sharazahad). Oh, I'm about to die. Quick, reset the game.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Why would anyone in their right mind ban Palinchron? Mono-blue has very few ways to reliably tutor for him AND requires that a mana doubler be in play/Image be in hand; in decks where he's Tooth and Nail'd for, isn't TnN the real problem because it just wins when it resolves/doesn't require any other cards in order to win? I guess Pally is quite potent in U/G regardless due to the fact that it and Phantasmal Image are so easily tutored, but c'mon. It's always gonna require at least one other card and 6 lands to go infinite (and you need an outlet for the mana!), and it's easily interrupted when someone tries to go infinite that early. There is more than one other two card combo that allows someone to go off just as early (one card, even, with a general like Niv-Mizzet).
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
The only reason I'm not strongly advocating banning Consecrated Sphinx is because my playgroup has instituted the "Gentleman's Agreement" rule, wherein if two players have a Consecrated Sphinx (which is exceedingly common given the number of copy effects in the format), neither will choose to draw off of the others' Sphinx draws. One Sphinx is "fine". It's a powerful card, similar to Primeval Titan, that generates incremental, quickly overwhelming card advantage over several turns if not answered. Two sphinxes without the Gentleman's Agreement means that two players draw until they hit Reliquary Tower and proceed to play a game where the other players have effectively no impact.
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I very much question the idea of banning Coffers and Cradle.
Coffers:
- Needs at least, 3 or 4 swamps to break even/tap for more mana than you have. One card depending so heavily on so many other cards (even if they're just basics) seems to weaken the card. Mono-color can already suffer a fair bit (lol @ BUG though) in this format, let them have their lands.
- There's a bunch of infinite mana engines, why do you want to ban a big mana engine? Bit of a difference in what they do. Doesn't make sense to me.
Cradle:
- By the time this taps for serious mana, Green probably has that many lands or dorks out anyway. Doesn't really accelerate the fire at that point.
- ^ You probably should have wrathed by that point :p.
- Seriously though, creatures are easy to deal with.
- As someone else said, Green's game is ramp. This land, just like certain creatures, are just better options for people who can afford it.
Both Lands
- Green can search/ramp them out, Black can tutor for them. That's all I can think of.
- As compared to Academy, most any color, in some form, can deal with a land or creatures, but not all the colors can affect artifacts.
Applying this to Tooth and Nail (which doesnt deserve to be banned)
1. It's a spell, meaning only Blue and Black can reliably tutor for it.
2. It's a spell, meaning there are very few ways to recur it.
3. It ends the game on the spot if the player has any sense.
4. It costs 9 mana to use fully. For 9 mana, you'd better damn well win the game.
Changing TnN to Iona:
1 - Creature, so WGB can tutor for it.
2 - Creature, so there are more ways to recur her than a spell etc.
3 - It can lock players out, not quite ending the game, but leading to it.
Hmm. Seems like a weaker argument so far. BUT:
4 - It costs 9 mana to cast her. For 9 mana, you'd better damn well (be setting up to) win the game.
Cabal Coffers - This really shouldn't be an issue. It is only fantastic in Mono Black decks. In any other color combination, Coffers gets progressively worse the more colors you add. Yes, it goes great with Urborg. Strip Mine also goes great with either of these. So does Wasteland. Tectonic Edge.
Coffers really doesnt do anything dangerous until late in the game, when it should have already been blown up by land destruction. If you are complaining about the massive amount of mana generated and then used to kill everyone with Exsanguinate... Well, don't let the mono B player keep coffers.
------------------------------------------------------ Gaea's Cradle - This is a different story. Coffers is good only later on, after a large number of lands have been played. Cradle turns on the moment you drop a creature, and from there on grows at an extreme rate until you out-tempo and out-mana everyone. Where Coffers is easily stopped by land destruction, for a large amountof time - Cradle dies only to wraths, and only up to a critical time until it really doesnt matter as the cradle player can easily get so far ahead no one can touch him.
While I don't believe Cradle should be banned, I would defenitely put it on a watchlist. Not Coffers. Coffers is a joke.
I want to get a Cradle and try it out before it might get banned though
---------------------------------------------------- Kokusho, the Evening Star - This suffers the same problem Palinchron does, in that it is a creature, and therefore extremely easy to abuse. However, Kokusho shouldn't be banned for an entirely different reason, that being... Life Totals Don't Matter.
Very few games of EDH are decided by 5-10 life points. While races do indeed happen, they rarely occur outside of 1v1. Kokusho is a fixed exsanguinate. Yes, you can reanimate him. Yes, you can cheat him into play. These are all valid points. However, there are very simple solutions to stopping Kokusho if he is really that much of an issue, for all colors.
I really don't understand how people can be anti Karakas but pro tuck. They both can be answered. Karakas can be answered in any color deck, where as tuck is very effective against certain colors over others. If anything Karakas is more balanced as it has an equal effect against any deck. It does not increase the casting cost and most people already run land hate to answer it.
I would rather deal with Karakas any day then getting my general tucked. One requires some land hate which is a good idea anyhow. The other can warp your deck construction to include more tutors(if available) or decentralize your deck so that the loss of your commander is not crippling.
So I am very surprised to see people so against it being unbanned while they are find with tuck being used.
I really don't understand how people can be anti Karakas but pro tuck. They both can be answered. Karakas can be answered in any color deck, where as tuck is very effective against certain colors over others. If anything Karakas is more balanced as it has an equal effect against any deck. It does not increase the casting cost and most people already run land hate to answer it.
I would rather deal with Karakas any day then getting my general tucked. One requires some land hate which is a good idea anyhow. The other can warp your deck construction to include more tutors(if available) or decentralize your deck so that the loss of your commander is not crippling.
So I am very surprised to see people so against it being unbanned while they are find with tuck being used.
Firstly there are very few tuck effects and none of them stop you from ever playing your general again they just make it much less likely. Karakas just says no to every general without hexproof or shroud thus eliminating most generals. With a tuck effect you have ways around them by either bouncing, saccing or exiling your general in response in order to avoid the tuck then the tuck effect is likely gone for the game. Karakas is the type of card that people will protect and centralize their decks around. They will find ways to recur it, protect it, tutor for it and find a way to get multiple uses out of if they want to, and will change card choices to play around. At that point any Wx general becomes a de facto choice over a non white general.
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
I think Sway of the Stars should be unbanned. It resets the game but the fact that it sets all life totals to 7 means that the game should still end quickly. I think it could be a good card for aggressive blue decks and like what it does against extreme life gain (which also makes games go on and on)
Karakas is obviously broken (and extremely un-fun) in this format. I'd rather the power 9 and tinker be brought in and allow Emrakul as a general.
I think Sway of the Stars should be unbanned. It resets the game but the fact that it sets all life totals to 7 means that the game should still end quickly. I think it could be a good card for aggressive blue decks and like what it does against extreme life gain (which also makes games go on and on)
Karakas is obviously broken (and extremely un-fun) in this format. I'd rather the power 9 and tinker be brought in and allow Emrakul as a general.
In a format with rampant Infinite Combo, General damage, single-swing-lethal Infect, and creatures that basically make you lose just by attacking a couple times regardless of the damage they do (eldrazi), how is lifegain at all relevant?
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On the topic of banlist edits, I want to propose Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Out of all the fast mana, these are far and away the most broken. Sol Ring is essentially another land drop on the turn in which it's played, and double after that. Mana Crypt is the same, but with a minor drawback. An early Sol Ring or Mana Crypt (or, god forbid, both) puts the caster significantly ahead of the table.
I actually like both of these, play them, and think they contribute to the format, but there's definitely an argument for banning them. Also, it was bound to come up sooner or later, so it might as well be sooner.
Rather have it bounced then tucked.
Hm, this is a tough one. Painter's Servant is already on the list to be removed. I suppose I could add Iona to the "Added" list for now, given that Grindstone is pretty reliant on other cards being there or not.
Yeah, I was thinking about doing something like that. It would be tough. For now, I'm relying on simple consensus. When I eventually make changes to the list, I will announce it first.
I was thinking of maybe putting numbers next to each card denoting how many times they've been mentioned. +1 for approval, -1 for disapproval. Then again, we'd have to find at what number of approval votes a card should be added into or removed from the actual list, and how negative net votes should be considered. For now, this is all very tentative on how popular this thread becomes. If it really starts buzzing around here, I'll probably go through and do a mental count after a while and post the results.
We'll see.
These should be on the list for sure.
If anything this would be more pro removing tinker from the list than adding Transmute. But I understand why tinker is there.
On that note, how do we see if all of this actually does anything? I'd be willing to play games with a community banlist if there were other people willing to do so (after the next three weeks, but that's a different story). Discussion and changes are nice, but there has to be some metric to see if it actually makes any kind of difference.
Hermit Druid shoud go on the list because it poses similar problems to protean hulk
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Tinker is way worse than Transmute Artifact. Transmute Artifact doesn't allow for turn 2 Sundering Titan and Blightsteel Colossus.
Cabal Coffers - This really shouldn't be an issue. It is only fantastic in Mono Black decks. In any other color combination, Coffers gets progressively worse the more colors you add. Yes, it goes great with Urborg. Strip Mine also goes great with either of these. So does Wasteland. Tectonic Edge.
Coffers really doesnt do anything dangerous until late in the game, when it should have already been blown up by land destruction. If you are complaining about the massive amount of mana generated and then used to kill everyone with Exsanguinate... Well, don't let the mono B player keep coffers.
------------------------------------------------------
Gaea's Cradle - This is a different story. Coffers is good only later on, after a large number of lands have been played. Cradle turns on the moment you drop a creature, and from there on grows at an extreme rate until you out-tempo and out-mana everyone. Where Coffers is easily stopped by land destruction, for a large amountof time - Cradle dies only to wraths, and only up to a critical time until it really doesnt matter as the cradle player can easily get so far ahead no one can touch him.
While I don't believe Cradle should be banned, I would defenitely put it on a watchlist. Not Coffers. Coffers is a joke.
----------------------------------------------------
Kokusho, the Evening Star - This suffers the same problem Palinchron does, in that it is a creature, and therefore extremely easy to abuse. However, Kokusho shouldn't be banned for an entirely different reason, that being... Life Totals Don't Matter.
Very few games of EDH are decided by 5-10 life points. While races do indeed happen, they rarely occur outside of 1v1. Kokusho is a fixed exsanguinate. Yes, you can reanimate him. Yes, you can cheat him into play. These are all valid points. However, there are very simple solutions to stopping Kokusho if he is really that much of an issue, for all colors.
Getting Reanimated? Relic of Progenitus! Tormod's Crypt! Nihil Spellbomb!
He's on the field? Swords to Plowshares! Journey to Nowhere!
On the stack? Dissipate!
Umad bro? Identity Crisis!
Kokusho just isn't the same beatstick he used to be. Unban him.
----------------------------------------
Metalworker - I'm an advocate to keep him banned. Firstly, he can generate obscene amounts of mana extremely quickly, as well as get more tempo than you'll ever need.
How does he work?
Cast it. Next turn, activate it, revealing your hand full of mana rocks and Planar Portal. Play Mana rocks and portal. With the massive amount of excess mana you have, search for Memory Jar.
Next turn, cast jar. Crack. Metalworker again. Oh, look - your hand is mana rocks again. Cast them all. Portal for "Boom Stick" ..GG
He should never see the light of day. Think Tolarian Academy on a stick.
----------------------------------------------------
Karakas - Just no. This is an automatic addition for any w/x deck, and defeats the entire purpose of the format. Permanent general lock, shenanigans with ETB Legends or other such toys. Just.. no. Keep it banned.
------------------------------------------------------
Sway of the Stars - This should remain banned for the simple reason it doesn't do anything but cause games to go on for hours more (think Sharazahad). Oh, I'm about to die. Quick, reset the game.
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Coffers:
- Needs at least, 3 or 4 swamps to break even/tap for more mana than you have. One card depending so heavily on so many other cards (even if they're just basics) seems to weaken the card. Mono-color can already suffer a fair bit (lol @ BUG though) in this format, let them have their lands.
- There's a bunch of infinite mana engines, why do you want to ban a big mana engine? Bit of a difference in what they do. Doesn't make sense to me.
Cradle:
- By the time this taps for serious mana, Green probably has that many lands or dorks out anyway. Doesn't really accelerate the fire at that point.
- ^ You probably should have wrathed by that point :p.
- Seriously though, creatures are easy to deal with.
- As someone else said, Green's game is ramp. This land, just like certain creatures, are just better options for people who can afford it.
Both Lands
- Green can search/ramp them out, Black can tutor for them. That's all I can think of.
- As compared to Academy, most any color, in some form, can deal with a land or creatures, but not all the colors can affect artifacts.
Changing TnN to Iona:
1 - Creature, so WGB can tutor for it.
2 - Creature, so there are more ways to recur her than a spell etc.
3 - It can lock players out, not quite ending the game, but leading to it.
Hmm. Seems like a weaker argument so far. BUT:
4 - It costs 9 mana to cast her. For 9 mana, you'd better damn well (be setting up to) win the game.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
I would rather deal with Karakas any day then getting my general tucked. One requires some land hate which is a good idea anyhow. The other can warp your deck construction to include more tutors(if available) or decentralize your deck so that the loss of your commander is not crippling.
So I am very surprised to see people so against it being unbanned while they are find with tuck being used.
Firstly there are very few tuck effects and none of them stop you from ever playing your general again they just make it much less likely. Karakas just says no to every general without hexproof or shroud thus eliminating most generals. With a tuck effect you have ways around them by either bouncing, saccing or exiling your general in response in order to avoid the tuck then the tuck effect is likely gone for the game. Karakas is the type of card that people will protect and centralize their decks around. They will find ways to recur it, protect it, tutor for it and find a way to get multiple uses out of if they want to, and will change card choices to play around. At that point any Wx general becomes a de facto choice over a non white general.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Karakas is obviously broken (and extremely un-fun) in this format. I'd rather the power 9 and tinker be brought in and allow Emrakul as a general.
In a format with rampant Infinite Combo, General damage, single-swing-lethal Infect, and creatures that basically make you lose just by attacking a couple times regardless of the damage they do (eldrazi), how is lifegain at all relevant?
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I wonder, how long has it been since people have tried using no ban list?
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Survival of the Fittest is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention Hermit Druid. Wizards has a knack for making meta-warping 2cmc green cards, eh?
I definitely want to see Mana Drain, the Legacy-banned manafacts, and pretty much every tier 1 tutor go, for reasons already stated.
Obligatory link to my CommanderCast article criticizing the official ban list: http://www.commandercast.com/true-conviction-05-the-worst-ban-list-in-magic
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--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---