For me it's almost more an issue of removing cards than adding cards. Some cards just don't feel like they need a ban but are still on there, namely Painter's Servant and especially Sway of the Stars.
Sway's on there because the decks that use it are invariably going to be doing 120 damage+ with it. It's not banned so much for the rest of the effect as it is the life total set.
Servant+Grindstone's too fast to keep in the format. When it comes to banning combos, they're almost always going to ban the engine, especially if it fuels multiple combos. Servant is the engine in both Painter/Stone and Painter/Iona, neither of which are particularly fun.
Servant was banned b/c it interacted both with Grindstone and Iona. Originally, Grindstone was banned, but Painter was the biggest enabler among the 3.
That's pretty sad. And I really don't get why people keep mentioning the combo with Iona, I know it's there but it's so bad and slow, and it doesn't even let you win on the spot. The fact that it can be tutored by T&N is also irrelevant because in that case T&N is the offender, not Iona or the Servant.
It sets up inevitability. At that point, if you haven't won the game, you may as well have, you just have to make sure not to die.
Also, other than dropping Kokusho, the banlist is fine just the way it is. We don't need a community banlist at all. If you don't like the way someone in your community's playing EDH, just don't play with them. Once they get the hint that nobody wants to play with them, they'll come in line.
The people dredging up the same bad arguments about Sway, Kokusho, and Painter's Servant need to go reread this thread. Almost everything said on the subjects in the last 3 pages is rehash of things that are absolutely wrong and have been debunked earlier in the thread.
Sway's on there because the decks that use it are invariably going to be doing 120 damage+ with it. It's not banned so much for the rest of the effect as it is the life total set.
Servant+Grindstone's too fast to keep in the format. When it comes to banning combos, they're almost always going to ban the engine, especially if it fuels multiple combos. Servant is the engine in both Painter/Stone and Painter/Iona, neither of which are particularly fun.
Then why isn't Magister Sphinx banned? On turn 2/3; someone's at 10 and possible the person who originally put Magister Sphinx into play.
If your so worried about damage...this is the wrong format for you buddy. Most games will end up in general damage, infect or infinite combo (s) or do you play Turn 6 Craw Wurm beats?
They clearly made EDH a game for mid-range/control/control-combo decks because we all aggro doesn't work unless your playing land destruction, stax or you are just that good.
I agree with xozzen and I don't think many of you are thinking before responding to him. We understand what Painter's Servant does and that it is a combo card. There are other combo cards that are not banned and many of them are much stronger than Painter's Servant/Grindstone or Servant/Iona.
The problem is that there is no consistency and it's not affecting anything for better or worse by keeping cards like that banned. They could unban it without significantly effecting much of anything and I think they should
If your so worried about damage...this is the wrong format for you buddy. Most games will end up in general damage, infect or infinite combo (s) or do you play Turn 6 Craw Wurm beats?
I'd like to disagree with this. In all the games I've played, I think I've died to infect once, general damage a few more times than that, and infinite combo twice. How you lose really depends on your meta. My meta typically consists of people using clever synergies or two card combos to wear down opponents. Saying that EDH is usually won those three strategies may be what your meta usually does, but mine and every group I've played in those are typically in the minority. Claiming that beatdown is an irrelevant strategy is narrow minded.
On topic,
I wouldn't like Sway to be unbanned. It's a powerful spell that gives a powerful color an almost insurmountable advantage.
I'd like to disagree with this. In all the games I've played, I think I've died to infect once, general damage a few more times than that, and infinite combo twice. How you lose really depends on your meta. My meta typically consists of people using clever synergies or two card combos to wear down opponents. Saying that EDH is usually won those three strategies may be what your meta usually does, but mine and every group I've played in those are typically in the minority. Claiming that beatdown is an irrelevant strategy is narrow minded.
On topic,
I wouldn't like Sway to be unbanned. It's a powerful spell that gives a powerful color an almost insurmountable advantage.
I didn't say beatdown is irrelevant "brah". It's just might tougher than other strategies due the abundance of Wrath's you'll see in an average game.
Putting someone at 10 on turn 2/3 is still considered beatdown because you (the player) is going to kill the opponent at 10 life with 2 combat swings. It's just "mean".
It should be pretty easy to see why beatdown is a weak strategy in edh. They have to deal twice the damage in this format so of course the other archetypes will be more powerful.
I really dislike the notion of banning cards because they are expensive. Personally, I like the fact that I own an Imperial Seal and most people do not. I had to toss $435.00 for it and I don't need it to collect dust alongside my Alexandria, Time Vault and Power 9.
I vote to add mindslaver to the banned list. Not because it's over powered or expensive, but because it restricts deck construction. It takes a slot in every blue deck "just in case" it and academy ruins show up in the same game. It gets pretty annoying.
I also vote to remove the following cards from the banned list:
Painter's servant
Sway of the stars
The five moxen
I have nothing new to add to the painter's servant or sway of the stars debate so I see no reason to list my reasoning on those.
My reasoning for the moxen is that they are only slightly better than sol ring and mana crypt, so they would help prevent the archenemy scenarios that are all so common by increasing the odds that multiple players get degenerate fast mana. Alternatively, ban sol ring and mana crypt, but I really don't like banning stuff. The only real strike against them is the seven hundred dollar price tag, but timetwister isn't banned, so what ever. Also, have they ever not been on the banned list? How do we know they won't have a heathy effect on the meta? Their addition would also make games more enjoyable. Fast mana is always enjoyable.
Also vote against the banning of gaea's cradle. It's capable of good mana, but so are a lot of cards. Getting a cradle out isn't such an overwhelming advantage that it deserves a ban.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Amen to the moxen unbanning. Either unban moxen or ban sol ring and mana crypt. It's stupid to ban based on price.
Gaea's Cradle is balanced, it doesn't help at all in your opening hand but is very powerful when played later. It is also weak to wrath effects. If you are losing to Gaea's Cradles you need to add some creature or land removal to your decks, those are things every edh deck should have.
Added to the List
+1 Palinchron
+1 Cabal Coffers
+1 Survival of the Fittest
+1 Mind over Matter
+1 Mana Crypt
-1 Sol Ring
-1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 Oath of Druids
I really dislike the notion of banning cards because they are expensive. Personally, I like the fact that I own an Imperial Seal and most people do not. I had to toss $435.00 for it and I don't need it to collect dust alongside my Alexandria, Time Vault and Power 9.
Why am I not surprised to find you here?
(I agree though, at least with regards to Imperial Seal.)
Banning cards like the Power 9 is really not necessary, sure it may be expensive but for the players whom have it amongst their collection it's welcome, so i'm going to nay the community ban of
-1 Imperial Seal
-1 Tooth and Nail [There's no reason it should be on the list]
+1 for the removal of Kokusho, the Evening Star and Painter's Servant
If that was done at least it would be accomadating towards the entire community because we all know Kokusho should be unbanned period he's not ban worthy in all honesty.
Amen to the moxen unbanning. Either unban moxen or ban sol ring and mana crypt. It's stupid to ban based on price.
Gaea's Cradle is balanced, it doesn't help at all in your opening hand but is very powerful when played later. It is also weak to wrath effects. If you are losing to Gaea's Cradles you need to add some creature or land removal to your decks, those are things every edh deck should have.
No, its the opposite of stupid to ban based on price.
It isn't dumb at all...
Joe: Hey I wanna play EDH!
Johny: Well do you have moxen?
Joe: No.
Johny: Well if not then you are going to be at a big disadvantage to everyone else. You won't be able to make explosive starts like they do. It will hurt your game.
Joe: Oh really? How much are they so I can get one?
Johny: Around $100-$200.
Joe: Are there any decks where it isn't an auto-include? Where the lack of having one won't gimp me?
Johny: No.
Joe: Yeah... **** this format. I will just go pay my rent instead.
Expensive auto-includes WILL hurt the growth of the format. PERIOD. Not debatable. Prohibitively expensive auto-includes should be banned.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
No, its the opposite of stupid to ban based on price.
It isn't dumb at all...
Joe: Hey I wanna play EDH!
Johny: Well do you have moxen?
Joe: No.
Johny: Well if not then you are going to be at a big disadvantage to everyone else. You won't be able to make explosive starts like they do. It will hurt your game.
Joe: Oh really? How much are they so I can get one?
Johny: Around $100-$200.
Joe: Are there any decks where it isn't an auto-include? Where the lack of having one won't gimp me?
Johny: No.
Joe: Yeah... **** this format. I will just go pay my rent instead.
Expensive auto-includes WILL hurt the growth of the format. PERIOD. Not debatable. Prohibitively expensive auto-includes should be banned.
...which is why the proposal is not really to ban cards based on price but on their power level. I can see Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, et al being broken but Imperial Seal? Really? Vampiric Tutor exists and a player who owns Imperial Seal is not going to be significantly advantaged against another that doesn't.
...which is why the proposal is not really to ban cards based on price but on their power level. I can see Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, et al being broken but Imperial Seal? Really? Vampiric Tutor exists and a player who owns Imperial Seal is not going to be significantly advantaged against another that doesn't.
Meaning the Moxen should stay exactly where they are; on the ban list. In 3+ color decks, it can be way too explosive of a start.
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EDH WBRKaalia of the VastRBW BChainer, Dementia MasterB Legacy 0Manaless Dredge0 RGoblinsR Standard RBWThe AristocratsWBR
Sway's on there because the decks that use it are invariably going to be doing 120 damage+ with it. It's not banned so much for the rest of the effect as it is the life total set.
Servant+Grindstone's too fast to keep in the format. When it comes to banning combos, they're almost always going to ban the engine, especially if it fuels multiple combos. Servant is the engine in both Painter/Stone and Painter/Iona, neither of which are particularly fun.
EDH Decks:
RBG Kresh, the Bloodbraided RBG
GW Rhys, the Redeemed GW
Legacy:
RGW Enchantress RGW
It sets up inevitability. At that point, if you haven't won the game, you may as well have, you just have to make sure not to die.
EDH Decks:
RBG Kresh, the Bloodbraided RBG
GW Rhys, the Redeemed GW
Legacy:
RGW Enchantress RGW
In a Commander Precon available to the masses.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
It's not going to happen. Nor does it need to.
EDH Decks:
RBG Kresh, the Bloodbraided RBG
GW Rhys, the Redeemed GW
Legacy:
RGW Enchantress RGW
Then why isn't Magister Sphinx banned? On turn 2/3; someone's at 10 and possible the person who originally put Magister Sphinx into play.
If your so worried about damage...this is the wrong format for you buddy. Most games will end up in general damage, infect or infinite combo (s) or do you play Turn 6 Craw Wurm beats?
They clearly made EDH a game for mid-range/control/control-combo decks because we all aggro doesn't work unless your playing land destruction, stax or you are just that good.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
The problem is that there is no consistency and it's not affecting anything for better or worse by keeping cards like that banned. They could unban it without significantly effecting much of anything and I think they should
I'd like to disagree with this. In all the games I've played, I think I've died to infect once, general damage a few more times than that, and infinite combo twice. How you lose really depends on your meta. My meta typically consists of people using clever synergies or two card combos to wear down opponents. Saying that EDH is usually won those three strategies may be what your meta usually does, but mine and every group I've played in those are typically in the minority. Claiming that beatdown is an irrelevant strategy is narrow minded.
On topic,
I wouldn't like Sway to be unbanned. It's a powerful spell that gives a powerful color an almost insurmountable advantage.
Building silly decks for silly games.
I didn't say beatdown is irrelevant "brah". It's just might tougher than other strategies due the abundance of Wrath's you'll see in an average game.
Putting someone at 10 on turn 2/3 is still considered beatdown because you (the player) is going to kill the opponent at 10 life with 2 combat swings. It's just "mean".
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
I also vote to remove the following cards from the banned list:
Painter's servant
Sway of the stars
The five moxen
I have nothing new to add to the painter's servant or sway of the stars debate so I see no reason to list my reasoning on those.
My reasoning for the moxen is that they are only slightly better than sol ring and mana crypt, so they would help prevent the archenemy scenarios that are all so common by increasing the odds that multiple players get degenerate fast mana. Alternatively, ban sol ring and mana crypt, but I really don't like banning stuff. The only real strike against them is the seven hundred dollar price tag, but timetwister isn't banned, so what ever. Also, have they ever not been on the banned list? How do we know they won't have a heathy effect on the meta? Their addition would also make games more enjoyable. Fast mana is always enjoyable.
Also vote against the banning of gaea's cradle. It's capable of good mana, but so are a lot of cards. Getting a cradle out isn't such an overwhelming advantage that it deserves a ban.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Gaea's Cradle is balanced, it doesn't help at all in your opening hand but is very powerful when played later. It is also weak to wrath effects. If you are losing to Gaea's Cradles you need to add some creature or land removal to your decks, those are things every edh deck should have.
+1 Palinchron
+1 Cabal Coffers
+1 Survival of the Fittest
+1 Mind over Matter
+1 Mana Crypt
-1 Sol Ring
-1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 Oath of Druids
Removed:
+1 Sway of the Stars
Why am I not surprised to find you here?
(I agree though, at least with regards to Imperial Seal.)
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
-1 Imperial Seal
-1 Tooth and Nail [There's no reason it should be on the list]
+1 for the removal of Kokusho, the Evening Star and Painter's Servant
If that was done at least it would be accomadating towards the entire community because we all know Kokusho should be unbanned period he's not ban worthy in all honesty.
EDH:1 vs 1
Talrand, Sky Summoner Retired.
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Talrand, Sky Summoner
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It isn't dumb at all...
Joe: Hey I wanna play EDH!
Johny: Well do you have moxen?
Joe: No.
Johny: Well if not then you are going to be at a big disadvantage to everyone else. You won't be able to make explosive starts like they do. It will hurt your game.
Joe: Oh really? How much are they so I can get one?
Johny: Around $100-$200.
Joe: Are there any decks where it isn't an auto-include? Where the lack of having one won't gimp me?
Johny: No.
Joe: Yeah... **** this format. I will just go pay my rent instead.
Expensive auto-includes WILL hurt the growth of the format. PERIOD. Not debatable. Prohibitively expensive auto-includes should be banned.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
...which is why the proposal is not really to ban cards based on price but on their power level. I can see Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, et al being broken but Imperial Seal? Really? Vampiric Tutor exists and a player who owns Imperial Seal is not going to be significantly advantaged against another that doesn't.
Meaning the Moxen should stay exactly where they are; on the ban list. In 3+ color decks, it can be way too explosive of a start.
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
This was a response to this portion: -
I am on the fence on the moxens but that is a power-level concern rather than a cost-concern.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
As someone who actually has, keep that **** banned!