MTG Salvation

With all the discussion that's been going on in the Official banlist Discussion Thread, I thought it would be interesting to try and get our ideas together and form a cohesive, community banlist for the sake of discussion.

I hope there's enough interest in doing something like this.

Anyway, it's simple. People suggest things to be added or removed, and I'll update the "banlist" if the suggestion garners support. We can discuss why we think any suggested card belongs on the list or why it doesn't.

This is something of a social experiment in that it really is for no other purpose than to highlight some of the differences between what we think should belong on the list, and what should not.

We'll start off with the Commander Banlist





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I will periodically look through the thread and make a tentative running tally of the suggestions. +1 for approval and -1 for disapproval. Cards can have net negative values at the moment.





*The assumption is being made that most people who would like to see Koko unbanned would agree that he should be banned as general. If this is not the case, please explain in your post.

Please keep in mind that I want to make this as unbiased as possible. Because you have been beaten many times by a Yosei lock doesn't necessarily mean that you should be shouting out for Yosei, the Morning Star's banning. Likewise, simply because you got a shiny, new Protean Hulk for your birthday last month, doesn't mean that you should advocate its removal from the list.

If you are presenting a new card to be added to either list, I expect a brief but descriptive paragraph as to why you are making an argument for any specific card.

As for the testing of any particular card, posting results in this thread would be appropriate. This thread is a very interesting read for those interested in the test conducted by Fponkdamn on Sol Ring.

Changes so far

Hermit Druid - Power Issue
Mana Drain - Power Issue
Imperial Seal - Cost Issue (As the RC contends some of the cards are banned for this reason)
Intuition - Power Issue
Palinchron - Power Issue

Only ones I can think of from the top of my head that really do deserve banning.

I would love to see Tooth and Nail on that list. That card is just to broken.

Island - Power Issue
Snow-Covered Island - Power Issue

Okay, so I'll be maintaining a list of the "non-joke" cards mentioned. If people agree with them enough, then I'll update the list with the suggested change.

I'm just going to throw removing Koko from the list out there.

Quote from Jivanmukta

I'd also move to ban Norin the Wary as a general. Power issue. (obvious joke, but I am waiting to see more opinionated overpowered cards)

No, I completely agree. Norin needs to be banned.


I'd say that servant should stay on the list. here's the rundown of why:

1. It's an artifact, and therefore tutorable by a larger % of decks.
2. It's a creature, therefore tutorable by an even larger % of decks.
3. It's easily recurrable, where something like Power Artifact or Mind Over Matter are not.
4. It automatically ends the game when coupled with Iona, Shield of Emeria or Grindstone, as well as various other uses (most notably with Teysa)
5. It's cheap. It costs 2 mana!

Applying this to Tooth and Nail (which doesnt deserve to be banned)

1. It's a spell, meaning only Blue and Black can reliably tutor for it.
2. It's a spell, meaning there are very few ways to recur it.
3. It ends the game on the spot if the player has any sense.
4. It costs 9 mana to use fully. For 9 mana, you'd better damn well win the game.

Quote from Jivanmukta

I feel the issue is more with Iona than with Servant. The recent banning of Erayo should show that Iona falls under the same category of "really really unfun card that NO ONE plays to increase gameplay"

Iona is significantly more expensive, more difficult to tutor, more difficult to recur, and doesn't combo with other pieces (such as Grindstone).

As much as I would like Painter's Servant in a deck or two, I agree with its inclusion on the list.

I saw this list and then thought it was cool. Then I read it again and saw Cabal Coffers was on it. That is just silly.

I say we unban Karakas. This isn't me trolling. I have actually thought it should be unban for a while.
Also we should unban metalworker.

Intuition is an interesting one that Gaka brought up that I haven't seen mentioned much before. Now that it's been mentioned, I do find it funny that Gifts Ungiven is banned where this is not. For 1 less, we can search for 1 less card. Yeah...

I agree with Gaka's other suggestions as well.

@Defenestrate Windows: I only add to the OP what is mentioned in posts. People need to support it for it to be included into the actual list. I understand that you disagree with it so I will take that as a strike against it.

There are a few cards that I'm not exactly sure why they're banned, maybe someone can explain it to me:

• Staff of Domination
  
• Sway of the Stars
  
• Upheaval

Upheaval is banned because of the massive advantage that it gives to the person casting it. If you tap out then cast Upheaval, you can immediately recast any mana rocks you had out or a significant threat and be many turns ahead of the rest of the table.

Staff of Domination has been pretty extensively discussed in the banlist thread, but the gist of it is that it's both a combo piece and a win con. With a creature that taps for 5 or more mana, it gives you infinite mana, infinite life, infinite draw, and locks down every creature on the board.

Sway of the Stars is actually one that I think could come of the list without any problem. It doesn't seem any more obnoxious than the rest of the mass removal with basically the same effect, it's kind of prohibitively costed to do anything really abusive with, and I don't see an easy way to break it.

I don't think Gaea's Cradle should be banned. It relies on creatures, which are, generally speaking, easier to deal with than the artifacts that enable Tolarian Academy. In addition, Green's strategy *IS* ramp. Without ramp, green just isn't viable. Blue's strategy, on the other hand, is control. Allowing blue to have access to that kind of mana production warps the format. Blue has an incredible amount of power at its disposal for relatively cheap, but the tradeoff is that it has to deal with having limited resources. Tolarian Academy negates that tradeoff. Gaea's Cradle, conversely, doesn't enable anything that green shouldn't be allowed to do. It simply allows it do what it's already trying to do better.

Quote from Jivanmukta

Sway of the Stars is pretty lame with Jhoria. But it is a pretty hilarious card as well.

So are Apocalypse, Obliterate, and Decree of Annihilation. None of them are warping the format around dealing with Jhoira decks or around themselves, they're not prohibitively expensive, and they don't exist exclusively as combo pieces (though that point is arguable). I don't see a reason to ban any of those, and I'd apply the same logic to Sway.

Quote from Xaios

I don't think Gaea's Cradle should be banned. It relies on creatures, which are, generally speaking, to deal with than the artifacts that enable Tolarian Academy. In addition, Green's strategy *IS* ramp. Without ramp, green just isn't viable. Blue's strategy, on the other hand, is control. Allowing blue to have access to that kind of mana production warps the format. Blue has an incredible amount of power at its disposal for relatively cheap, but the tradeoff is that it has to deal with having limited resources. Tolarian Academy negates that tradeoff. Gaea's Cradle, conversely, doesn't enable anything that green shouldn't be allowed to do. It simply allows it do what it's already trying to do better.

As someone said in the banlist discussion thread, the banlist doesn't exist to moderate the color pie. What a color's philosophy is should have nothing to do with what is and isn't banned. I could see Cradle as up for consideration, though I'm not sure if I agree that it should or shouldn't be banned.

Isn't this thread just turning into another "Official ban list" discussion, only with a slight twist?

Either way I'm taking one very large step away from it.

Good luck to all of you, please don't kill each other, I like having discussions with some of you.

I think Painter's Servant should be legal but two conditions should be added:
Grindstone should be banned
Iona, Shield of Emeria should be banned

Before people start talking about wanting a smaller banlist rather than a larger one, the only REAL difference is Iona. No one plays grindstone without servant, so when they banned servant they effectively banned stone too. So in a way it's only a net change of one.

Quote from Pysces

Isn't this thread just turning into another "Official ban list" discussion, only with a slight twist?

Either way I'm taking one very large step away from it.

Good luck to all of you, please don't kill each other, I like having discussions with some of you.

A little bit, except we actually have visual representation in the form of tables so that we can see where we differ from the RC's list :D.

Wait until I actually start swapping cards in the community banlist.