This probably isn't news to any veterans out there, but I was wondering if something like this is played in cut-throat areas.
Flash seems a little too powerful imo. Combined with cards like Mindslicer and Woodfall Primus, the game seems like it could be locked out or geared heavily in your favor if you pull something like this off. More so in 1v1 with the Primus example.
T2 on the play you Flash in Mindslicer in response to opponents draw. Seems a bit busted to me. And if you hit Sensei's Divining Top on T1, it's probably GG for the other player.
Even Primeval Titan is good just for the too lands, and since he's going to your graveyard, if you're lucky enough to have some reanimation spell in your hand as well, it's just that much more insane.
A big mana deck (green) running Winding Canyons and ways to protect it or recur it with lots of control creatures with staxing etb abilities. Some Momentary Blink (white/blue) affects to, instant speed, abuse them again. Even some things that naturally have flash and protect/control such as Mystic Snake, Dust Elemental, and ofcourse Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Or just build Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Flash sucks because it's a one time effect that, without only a handful of creatures in magic, is card disadvantage.
I uh, obviously am speaking towards multiplayer. Though at 40 life and the whole game to live through and you going through 3+ cards by turn 2 I bet they'll come back even in 1v1. Love to be proved wrong though.
This probably isn't news to any veterans out there, but I was wondering if something like this is played in cut-throat areas.
Flash seems a little too powerful imo. Combined with cards like Mindslicer and Woodfall Primus, the game seems like it could be locked out or geared heavily in your favor if you pull something like this off. More so in 1v1 with the Primus example.
T2 on the play you Flash in Mindslicer in response to opponents draw. Seems a bit busted to me. And if you hit Sensei's Divining Top on T1, it's probably GG for the other player.
Even Primeval Titan is good just for the too lands, and since he's going to your graveyard, if you're lucky enough to have some reanimation spell in your hand as well, it's just that much more insane.
Being able to go off like that T2, and even a few turns later just seems way too powerful. How often does anyone see this strategy used?
Flash didn't get banned for no reason. In America Lark-combo. You can EoT Flash in Lark and win during their turn. It does decides games if you have a deck full of creatures with useful trigger abilities.
A big mana deck (green) running Winding Canyons and ways to protect it or recur it with lots of control creatures with staxing etb abilities. Some Momentary Blink (white/blue) affects to, instant speed, abuse them again. Even some things that naturally have flash and protect/control such as Mystic Snake, Dust Elemental, and ofcourse Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Or just build Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Flash sucks because it's a one time effect that, without only a handful of creatures in magic, is card disadvantage.
It's not card disadvantage when combined with Kederket Levitation, Primeval Titan, Mind Slicer, Avenger of Zendikar (Token Dec), Sundering Titan, etc etc.
Not only that, but you can just pay the cost of a creature and flash it into play to surprise block and kill something, which, would be a card for card.
The card is insane and can outright win you the game. Vampiric tutor is card disadvantage......but it's worth it when you tutor for a spell that can wrath a field or pull off a combo.
Flash didn't get banned for no reason. In America Lark-combo. You can EoT Flash in Lark and win during their turn. It does decides games if you have a deck full of creatures with useful trigger abilities.
Actually the real reason it got banned was Protean Hulk, since it combo'd with Hulk to create a 2 card combo that was fast and resilient. Flash seems far less broken in EDH since most of the time it won't be able to win you the game on the spot like it did in Legacy.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Actually the real reason it got banned was Protean Hulk, since it combo'd with Hulk to create a 2 card combo that was fast and resilient. Flash seems far less broken in EDH since most of the time it won't be able to win you the game on the spot like it did in Legacy.
I know why it got banned, but I started the more obviously combo. The Lark loop is in almost every G/W deck I've seen!
It's not card disadvantage when combined with Kederket Levitation, Primeval Titan, Mind Slicker, Avenger of Zendikar (Token Dec), Sundering Titan, etc etc.
Not only that, but you can just pay the cost of a creature and flash it into play to surprise block and kill something, which, would be a card for card.
The card is insane and can outright win you the game. Vampiric tutor is card disadvantage......but it's worth it when you tutor for a spell that can wrath a field or pull off a combo.
Kederekt Leviathan is only good if you're threatened by their board presence. Horrible turn 2. There is an awesome synergy here though with the unearth cost. I'd totally do this eot on like turn 6+. Strait pimpin.
Primeval Titan flashed in turn 2 is card parody. You get two lands into play but speant flash and primeval titan to get there. Arguing that you can then reanimate it, well socanI. For 2 mana or 5 completely outside of black. If I was going to do any kind of trickery with primetime, it'd be haste enablers so I get 4 lands. Flashing in eot and paying the cost is great, but then you could have just paid 1 more for Crimson Wisps and gained more card advantage then flash.
Mind Slicer makes you discard your hand as well. You want to reanimate big threats? You'll need a reanimation card in your hand to do it with. Too much setup and too easy to fail outside of The Mimeoplasm. But that's The Mimeoplasm winning, not flash.
Avenger of Zendikar, turn two, is card parody, two 0/1 tokens for two cards. Flashing in Avenger and blocking with a 0/1 plant token would be beastly late game. But if you can't then pay avenger's remaining cost of 5 you just get 0/1 tokens. Alternatively, you could have played avenger on your turn to prompt your opponents to attack someone else or simply not attack and that flash in your hand is just another land so you can swing for 7 off the tokens when it comes back around to you.
Flash needs more than any of that. Late game, I want to flash in Dread Cacodemon and just let it die along with your opponents boards. Or the lark combo mentioned above. Something that actually can win you the game.
So yes, Flash is an amazing card. But not a game winner so much in edh without setup. Also not on turn 2 that I'm aware of. Help me get behind it by showing me an interaction we haven't discussed here.
If I built, say, a green-blue EDH deck that wants to play lots of creatures, and plays lots of creatures with ETB effects (As opposed to lots of giant, dumb beaters), I would definitely find a slot for Flash in it. If I built a deck with a Persist theme, I would definitely find a slot for Flash in it. In EDH it's limited by the large singleton decks (Which make early-game combos virtually impossible) but you can view it as a tacked-on Evoke. Playing certain ETB creatures on turn 2 can be really powerful even if it they die instantly.
The old Flash Hulk combo deck won usually before turn 2. Often when on the draw it would win during the first upkeep of the player on the play. The way it worked is that it would drop Gemsone Caverns before the game began, and then, at instant speed, tap the caverns and use Simian Spirit Guide to cast Flash, putting Protean Hulk into play. The Hulk would die instantly, letting you tutor up four copies of Disciple of the Vault and eight artifact creatures with a converted mana cost of 0. All of those would come into play and trigger each disciple eight times for a total of 32 damage to the opponent. This entire combo can be played, at instant speed, before your turn even begins.
Obviously, this isn't terribly relevant to a format where you can only run one copy of Disciple of the Vault in your 100-card deck, but Flash is still in the top tier for brokeness.
Edit: Dread Cacodemon has a "If you cast it from your hand" clause, so Flash won't trigger it. Personally I think the best EDH combo with Flash is to use Mycosynth Lattice and Shared Fate to Mindslaver your opponent into using Flash to play your copy of Phage the Untouchable.
I totally botched that dread cacodemon thing and while I love super johnny jank wins, flash requires the creature to be in your hand so it won't work off creatures under shared fate.
Kederekt Leviathan is only good if you're threatened by their board presence. Horrible turn 2. There is an awesome synergy here though with the unearth cost. I'd totally do this eot on like turn 6+. Strait pimpin.
Primeval Titan flashed in turn 2 is card parody. You get two lands into play but speant flash and primeval titan to get there. Arguing that you can then reanimate it, well socanI. For 2 mana or 5 completely outside of black. If I was going to do any kind of trickery with primetime, it'd be haste enablers so I get 4 lands. Flashing in eot and paying the cost is great, but then you could have just paid 1 more for Crimson Wisps and gained more card advantage then flash.
Mind Slicer makes you discard your hand as well. You want to reanimate big threats? You'll need a reanimation card in your hand to do it with. Too much setup and too easy to fail outside of The Mimeoplasm. But that's The Mimeoplasm winning, not flash.
Avenger of Zendikar, turn two, is card parody, two 0/1 tokens for two cards. Flashing in Avenger and blocking with a 0/1 plant token would be beastly late game. But if you can't then pay avenger's remaining cost of 5 you just get 0/1 tokens. Alternatively, you could have played avenger on your turn to prompt your opponents to attack someone else or simply not attack and that flash in your hand is just another land so you can swing for 7 off the tokens when it comes back around to you.
Flash needs more than any of that. Late game, I want to flash in Dread Cacodemon and just let it die along with your opponents boards. Or the lark combo mentioned above. Something that actually can win you the game.
So yes, Flash is an amazing card. But not a game winner so much in edh without setup. Also not on turn 2 that I'm aware of. Help me get behind it by showing me an interaction we haven't discussed here.
I'm not hating, I'm deliberating.
I wouldn't T2 an AZ or KL. Maybe a Prime Titan, but only if I had the reanimation and the lands told me my opponent isn't playing black.
I'll Mind Slicer all day long if I have Sylvan Library or Phyrexian Arena or a Jace the Mindsculptor. That is if the board is looking pretty clean. But a T2 Sylvan Library T3 Mind slicer isn't too shabby.
If you really need the Mana you can Sunblast Angel EOT. Even a KnollSpine Dragon to draw or Godo EOT to get an equipment and put it directly into play.
And as more big creatures with ETB effects get printed, this will only get better.
I'll Mind Slicer all day long if I have Sylvan Library or Phyrexian Arena or a Jace the Mindsculptor. That is if the board is looking pretty clean. But a T2 Sylvan Library T3 Mind slicer isn't too shabby.
Necropotence over Sylvan Library. I'd just scoop, you win bro, show's over.
1v1 this is strong but not super broken. Obviously not super common either. Besides, If you can reliably do that on say turn 4 (two turns to fetch what you didn't get in your opening hand?), what's your opponent doing? Multiplayer you just ruined one guys game and will lose shortly from the rest of the table.
If you really need the Mana you can Sunblast Angel EOT. Even a KnollSpine Dragon to draw or Godo EOT to get an equipment and put it directly into play.
A Dread Cacodemon that actually functions? But you're in blue, what are you doing playing Knollspine Dragon?
And as more big creatures with ETB effects get printed, this will only get better.
I was doing some digging myself, I really like;
Seedguide Ash, better than primetime if you aren't paying for it
Body Snatcher, you triggered grave pact and got a consecrated sphinx into play during my upkeep? You cheatin bro.
Puppeteer Clique, Damnation into Flash and swing with the two best on the field?!
But the one that really screamed at me, "You idiot!" was Solemn Simulacrum.
- Still though, none of these just win. Without one of these very specific cards, flash is just poor. Hell, the strongest two, mindslicer with a draw engine and body snatcher with either a creature in hand and something valuable dead or something valuable in hand, require 2 cards to work outside of flash. Spending all that time to fetch these up and your opponents get to a stable board possition. It also causes you to use resources (cards, creatures you could have just kept) that in the majority of games, you will be able to cast normally and receive greater value from. I'm still not against flash, I'm just explaining a counter point of it's value in this sort of format. Being singletons means you can't readily abuse it. Using a ton of search means there are better things to search for. By all means, go for it, it just doesn't appear to me to be competitive.
Some serious hotness with Flash would be Sharuum. You get Sharuum into play and an artifact of your choice from the graveyard, say Magister Sphinx. Swing for 10? Or perhaps an artifact that executes the Sharuum loop. Infinite damage/loss of life? Link for ruling, just in case: Link.
Flash can definitely be seriously abused, but I don't really see it all that often. Maybe people just haven't started really building to it. Maybe it's not really worth it. At this point, I'm inclined to say it's good, but not any more busted than a lot of the other stuff going on in this format.
I feel like a creature based Riku deck could do some dirty things with it. Those tend to be built around powerful etb effects anyways, so it could be worthwhile even without the general in play. I may need to pick one of these up.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Flash with Twilight Shepherd or Ashen Rider. One saves your creatures after a wipe while and persist keeps it in play and the other one allows you to exile 2 lands on turn two. I once used a protean hulk to fetch a twilight shepherd- the guy who board wiped wasn't happy.
@PrismFalcon
Hi there and welcome back! That's a really cool interaction you were able to do, but I recommend posting comments on active threads. This particular thread hasn't been active for 7+ years. May I point you to the regular Commander forums. I think there's a thread about sweet EDH plays that you could definitely post this in.
Flash seems a little too powerful imo. Combined with cards like Mindslicer and Woodfall Primus, the game seems like it could be locked out or geared heavily in your favor if you pull something like this off. More so in 1v1 with the Primus example.
T2 on the play you Flash in Mindslicer in response to opponents draw. Seems a bit busted to me. And if you hit Sensei's Divining Top on T1, it's probably GG for the other player.
T2 Woodfall Primus end of your opponent's turn and you just took out their land drops. Sundering Titan even.
Even Primeval Titan is good just for the too lands, and since he's going to your graveyard, if you're lucky enough to have some reanimation spell in your hand as well, it's just that much more insane.
Alongside a BUG variant you get 5 cheap and efficient tutors to assemble something. Emperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Mystical Tutor.
Being able to go off like that T2, and even a few turns later just seems way too powerful. How often does anyone see this strategy used?
I uh, obviously am speaking towards multiplayer. Though at 40 life and the whole game to live through and you going through 3+ cards by turn 2 I bet they'll come back even in 1v1. Love to be proved wrong though.
Flash didn't get banned for no reason. In America Lark-combo. You can EoT Flash in Lark and win during their turn. It does decides games if you have a deck full of creatures with useful trigger abilities.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
It's not card disadvantage when combined with Kederket Levitation, Primeval Titan, Mind Slicer, Avenger of Zendikar (Token Dec), Sundering Titan, etc etc.
Not only that, but you can just pay the cost of a creature and flash it into play to surprise block and kill something, which, would be a card for card.
The card is insane and can outright win you the game. Vampiric tutor is card disadvantage......but it's worth it when you tutor for a spell that can wrath a field or pull off a combo.
Actually the real reason it got banned was Protean Hulk, since it combo'd with Hulk to create a 2 card combo that was fast and resilient. Flash seems far less broken in EDH since most of the time it won't be able to win you the game on the spot like it did in Legacy.
I know why it got banned, but I started the more obviously combo. The Lark loop is in almost every G/W deck I've seen!
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Kederekt Leviathan is only good if you're threatened by their board presence. Horrible turn 2. There is an awesome synergy here though with the unearth cost. I'd totally do this eot on like turn 6+. Strait pimpin.
Primeval Titan flashed in turn 2 is card parody. You get two lands into play but speant flash and primeval titan to get there. Arguing that you can then reanimate it, well so can I. For 2 mana or 5 completely outside of black. If I was going to do any kind of trickery with primetime, it'd be haste enablers so I get 4 lands. Flashing in eot and paying the cost is great, but then you could have just paid 1 more for Crimson Wisps and gained more card advantage then flash.
Mind Slicer makes you discard your hand as well. You want to reanimate big threats? You'll need a reanimation card in your hand to do it with. Too much setup and too easy to fail outside of The Mimeoplasm. But that's The Mimeoplasm winning, not flash.
Avenger of Zendikar, turn two, is card parody, two 0/1 tokens for two cards. Flashing in Avenger and blocking with a 0/1 plant token would be beastly late game. But if you can't then pay avenger's remaining cost of 5 you just get 0/1 tokens. Alternatively, you could have played avenger on your turn to prompt your opponents to attack someone else or simply not attack and that flash in your hand is just another land so you can swing for 7 off the tokens when it comes back around to you.
Flash needs more than any of that. Late game, I want to flash in Dread Cacodemon and just let it die along with your opponents boards. Or the lark combo mentioned above. Something that actually can win you the game.
So yes, Flash is an amazing card. But not a game winner so much in edh without setup. Also not on turn 2 that I'm aware of. Help me get behind it by showing me an interaction we haven't discussed here.
I'm not hating, I'm deliberating.
The old Flash Hulk combo deck won usually before turn 2. Often when on the draw it would win during the first upkeep of the player on the play. The way it worked is that it would drop Gemsone Caverns before the game began, and then, at instant speed, tap the caverns and use Simian Spirit Guide to cast Flash, putting Protean Hulk into play. The Hulk would die instantly, letting you tutor up four copies of Disciple of the Vault and eight artifact creatures with a converted mana cost of 0. All of those would come into play and trigger each disciple eight times for a total of 32 damage to the opponent. This entire combo can be played, at instant speed, before your turn even begins.
Obviously, this isn't terribly relevant to a format where you can only run one copy of Disciple of the Vault in your 100-card deck, but Flash is still in the top tier for brokeness.
Edit: Dread Cacodemon has a "If you cast it from your hand" clause, so Flash won't trigger it. Personally I think the best EDH combo with Flash is to use Mycosynth Lattice and Shared Fate to Mindslaver your opponent into using Flash to play your copy of Phage the Untouchable.
I wouldn't T2 an AZ or KL. Maybe a Prime Titan, but only if I had the reanimation and the lands told me my opponent isn't playing black.
I'll Mind Slicer all day long if I have Sylvan Library or Phyrexian Arena or a Jace the Mindsculptor. That is if the board is looking pretty clean. But a T2 Sylvan Library T3 Mind slicer isn't too shabby.
And Woodfall Primus T2 is the nuts. Even more insane with Phantasmal Image or Phyrexian Metamorph on T3.
If you really need the Mana you can Sunblast Angel EOT. Even a KnollSpine Dragon to draw or Godo EOT to get an equipment and put it directly into play.
And as more big creatures with ETB effects get printed, this will only get better.
I wouldn't either. Totally behind you.
Necropotence over Sylvan Library. I'd just scoop, you win bro, show's over.
1v1 this is strong but not super broken. Obviously not super common either. Besides, If you can reliably do that on say turn 4 (two turns to fetch what you didn't get in your opening hand?), what's your opponent doing? Multiplayer you just ruined one guys game and will lose shortly from the rest of the table.
A Dread Cacodemon that actually functions? But you're in blue, what are you doing playing Knollspine Dragon?
I was doing some digging myself, I really like;
Seedguide Ash, better than primetime if you aren't paying for it
Body Snatcher, you triggered grave pact and got a consecrated sphinx into play during my upkeep? You cheatin bro.
Puppeteer Clique, Damnation into Flash and swing with the two best on the field?!
But the one that really screamed at me, "You idiot!" was Solemn Simulacrum.
- Still though, none of these just win. Without one of these very specific cards, flash is just poor. Hell, the strongest two, mindslicer with a draw engine and body snatcher with either a creature in hand and something valuable dead or something valuable in hand, require 2 cards to work outside of flash. Spending all that time to fetch these up and your opponents get to a stable board possition. It also causes you to use resources (cards, creatures you could have just kept) that in the majority of games, you will be able to cast normally and receive greater value from. I'm still not against flash, I'm just explaining a counter point of it's value in this sort of format. Being singletons means you can't readily abuse it. Using a ton of search means there are better things to search for. By all means, go for it, it just doesn't appear to me to be competitive.
Flash can definitely be seriously abused, but I don't really see it all that often. Maybe people just haven't started really building to it. Maybe it's not really worth it. At this point, I'm inclined to say it's good, but not any more busted than a lot of the other stuff going on in this format.
@PrismFalcon
Hi there and welcome back! That's a really cool interaction you were able to do, but I recommend posting comments on active threads. This particular thread hasn't been active for 7+ years. May I point you to the regular Commander forums. I think there's a thread about sweet EDH plays that you could definitely post this in.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager