I don't mind banned cards, cause in our group we can do stupid things. We also have our own rules. We play cut throat type 2 and 1.5. Our EDH group is complete casual. We like to have games go on for about 2-3 hours not just end in a matter of minutes. So ours rules are
Playing infect? You're going to 20 instead of 15
No infinites, and if you do have an infinite in your deck you can go up to 30 times with it. Infinite turns are an exception you only can go up to 10.
Thats about all we do when it comes to rules.
Having no rules = anarchy. Games (not just MTG) need rules/guidelines, otherwise, what's the point? Besides, as several people have already mentioned, having a banned list is there to keep things from becoming overly degenerate. Sure, the banned list isn't perfect, but what banned list is? Unfortunately, the RC can't please everyone. Some people like playing with degenerate cards, and I know the banned list we currently have for the format doesn't acknowledge all the 18+ years of printed card stock, but it's the best we have. If more consistency is what you want, then you may be playing the wrong format. I've come to terms with the fact that the banned list doesn't stop all the degenerate things that can happen in game (after all, there are almost 13000 cards). The RC doesn't want a banned list like that of 5-color/Prismatic. I wish more people would just quit complaining about the rules/restrictions of the format, and just play. If a game ends early, so what? If someone does something degenerate in a game of Commander, why care? Shuffle up and play another game. This is Magic. Lots of stupidly busted plays are in the nature of the game itself, it's not just Commander where we see this, but for some reason, more people seem to complain about it here than in other formats (at least from my experience). Play Type 1 for a while and then come to me about busted plays. It's the nature of the beast. The joy of this format, in my opinion, is the fact that, outside of vintage, we can play with some of the most powerful cards in the game. No other format really offers this kind of deck building flexibility, outside of type 1. This eternal griping I've seen about the format doesn't do anything positive. Again, if someone doesn't like the rules of the game, no one is forcing them to play it.
That's a problem with magic in general, not just something in commander. Mono-color decks aren't viable in any format anymore. Look at all the new commander boxes. NONE of the commanders are mono-colored.
They were never supposed to be. The commanders were printed to help increase the number of enemy pair and wedge legends. We didn't NEED another mono black, or mono green, general.
Also, asuza, azami, clique, skittles, iname, teferi, isamaru, and godo would like a word with you.
They were never supposed to be. The commanders were printed to help increase the number of enemy pair and wedge legends. We didn't NEED another mono black, or mono green, general.
Also, asuza, azami, clique, skittles, iname, teferi, isamaru, and godo would like a word with you.
Apparently not good enough to justify a mono-colored deck if Moxen were unbanned.
Did any of you actually read the OP? Doesn't look like it. He wasn't suggesting those silly rules as a banlist.
Anyway i don't support this because there ARE tournaments for EDH. And some strats (hermit druid, clique) are dominating.
Yeah, but he's clearly not happy with the guidelines that are already set in place by the RC, because if he was, then he wouldn't be proposing a ridiculous set of alternate rules.
Did any of you actually read the OP? Doesn't look like it. He wasn't suggesting those silly rules as a banlist.
Anyway i don't support this because there ARE tournaments for EDH. And some strats (hermit druid, clique) are dominating.
I'm going to post this, again, because it deals with the exact complaint you have.
When running a competitive commander event, the recommended list of cards to avoid (under the primary deckbuilding rules) is one place to start. It is not however, nor is it intended to be, comprehensive. There are a great many uninteresting uses for the cards not listed there, and additional structure is required to keep degeneracy in check.
If the banlist isn't working for tournaments, the people running those tournaments need to develop their own list and tighten it up a bit. Which is why there are three banlists that you can find on this site. A TO being too lazy to run up a list for an EDH event is no reason to ***** about the official banlist, because that isn't what it was intended for.
Apparently not good enough to justify a mono-colored deck if Moxen were unbanned.
The last statement I made about this was poorly worded. In a world where the moxen are legal, a deck with more colors has a slight edge because of the increased amount of broken mana rocks it can run. If moxen are banned, this is not an issue. Sol Ring/Mana Crypt are broken mana rocks, but every deck has an equal opportunity to run them. This is one of the areas where the banlist is fairly consistent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
They were never supposed to be. The commanders were printed to help increase the number of enemy pair and wedge legends. We didn't NEED another mono black, or mono green, general.
Also, asuza, azami, clique, skittles, iname, teferi, isamaru, and godo would like a word with you.
So would Bosh, Memnarch, Geth, and Lin-Sivi. Actually mono color isn't as weak as some people seem to think it is. I've seen a dedicated Geth deck demolish a Sharuum deck 3 times in a row just because Sharuum couldn't do anything to amount to anything. I've seen Teferi completely shut down a board with 3 opponents early on and keep it locked till he combo'd off. I've even seen Tomorrow, Azami's familiar come from no where and demolish Momir Vig combo and Scion of the Ur-dragon same game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Through me the way to the suffering city; Through me the everlasting pain; Through me the way that runs among the Lost. Justice urged on my exalted Creator: Divine Power made me, The Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love. Nothing was made before me but eternal things And I endure eternally. Abandon all hope - You Who Enter Here.
Also, the three cards banned as commanders all happen to be mono-colored. Just sayin'. Also, there's a certain Librarian (Azami) and Faerie (Vendilion Clique) who would like to have a few words with you. Anyhow, contributing to the discussion:
THe banned list exists in order to remove un-fun cards. This isn't necessarily removing powerful cards, but it gets rid of un-fun cards. In fact, I would be VERY surprised if Braid's big sister, Sheoldred didn't get the banhammer pretty quick here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH
"The Six"
Patron of the Moon
Ghoulcaller Gisa
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Karametra, God of Harvests
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Also, the three cards banned as commanders all happen to be mono-colored. Just sayin'. Also, there's a certain Librarian (Azami) and Faerie (Vendilion Clique) who would like to have a few words with you. Anyhow, contributing to the discussion:
THe banned list exists in order to remove un-fun cards. This isn't necessarily removing powerful cards, but it gets rid of un-fun cards. In fact, I would be VERY surprised if Braid's big sister, Sheoldred didn't get the banhammer pretty quick here.
I would. She's much more expensive and only hurts creature base. Braids on turn 2-4 can shut down an entire game. She's not nearly as powerful in the general seat as Braids. And some cards banned are unfun, some are just absurdly powerful. Like Time Walk and Recurring Nightmare. Time Walk for it's insanely low cost for what it does, and Recurring Nightmare for the fact that short of countering it there's very little that can stop it, and it turns every 2B that you have into a recur creature, albeit at sorcery speed but still.
Removing the banned list could easily see shenanigans like Priest of Gix, Priest of Urabrask, Infinite storm count from Recurring Nightmare, Ignite Memories/Tendrils of Agony. Or even factoring in "no infinites" using it with Gravepact to effectively board wipe every turn.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Through me the way to the suffering city; Through me the everlasting pain; Through me the way that runs among the Lost. Justice urged on my exalted Creator: Divine Power made me, The Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love. Nothing was made before me but eternal things And I endure eternally. Abandon all hope - You Who Enter Here.
Minor nit pick - there are only 2 creatures banned specifically as commanders. Roffelos & black Braids.
I was including Kokusho for posterity.:)
And I know sheoldred isnt as good as black Braids, but I have played for a long time, and I remember when Stax was a deck right after Saga. I still have nightmares. That was a terrifying strategy. It can be beaten, but it's not too fun to watch your opponent systematically shut you down, a la EDH Braids. (says the guy playing dredge
The only reason people support the banned list with such fervor is because it was created. If today we were playing edh, with no banned list, we'd still be here, still have people playing casually, and of course crying about biorhythm, sway the stars, or moxes, whatever.
It is about on the level with, a child crying that one child got a toy that they wanted, but didn't know they wanted it, until they saw the other kid playing with the toy.
The average gamer can't play this game with out structure. Some out of inexperience, some out of sheer laziness.
Bottom-line, its too late to try and change the banned list. There are far to many zealots, as you no doubt have already seen reply to your thread. There is no reasoning with them, they think the R/C is correct and know what they are doing. Fact of the matter is, they don't, they are quite a joke actually.
The only reason people support the banned list with such fervor is because it was created. If today we were playing edh, with no banned list, we'd still be here, still have people playing casually, and of course crying about biorhythm, sway the stars, or moxes, whatever.
It is about on the level with, a child crying that one child got a toy that they wanted, but didn't know they wanted it, until they saw the other kid playing with the toy.
The average gamer can't play this game with out structure. Some out of inexperience, some out of sheer laziness.
Bottom-line, its too late to try and change the banned list. There are far to many zealots, as you no doubt have already seen reply to your thread. There is no reasoning with them, they think the R/C is correct and know what they are doing. Fact of the matter is, they don't, they are quite a joke actually.
Wow, this post has T-R-O-L-L written all over it.
Spam/flaming/backseat (take your pick) infraction issued. -viper
The only reason people support the banned list with such fervor is because it was created. If today we were playing edh, with no banned list, we'd still be here, still have people playing casually, and of course crying about biorhythm, sway the stars, or moxes, whatever.
It is about on the level with, a child crying that one child got a toy that they wanted, but didn't know they wanted it, until they saw the other kid playing with the toy.
The average gamer can't play this game with out structure. Some out of inexperience, some out of sheer laziness.
Bottom-line, its too late to try and change the banned list. There are far to many zealots, as you no doubt have already seen reply to your thread. There is no reasoning with them, they think the R/C is correct and know what they are doing. Fact of the matter is, they don't, they are quite a joke actually.
Wow, this post has T-R-O-L-L written all over it.
He didn't call anyone a noob so he is probably okay.
And he is wrong, while the banned list is not perfect and most people don't claim that. People support it because it has helped lead the format into wide player appeal. And with that they support the RC over all. As they are the ones that have fostered and grown the format. They are owed respect for that. Take a look at the last set of bannings for modern if you want to see overzealous bannings. The RC tends to take time and not knee jerk reaction every new set. Look at Emmy, he (it?) was giving plenty of time before being banned.
The only reason people support the banned list with such fervor is because it was created. If today we were playing edh, with no banned list, we'd still be here, still have people playing casually, and of course crying about biorhythm, sway the stars, or moxes, whatever.
It is about on the level with, a child crying that one child got a toy that they wanted, but didn't know they wanted it, until they saw the other kid playing with the toy.
The average gamer can't play this game with out structure. Some out of inexperience, some out of sheer laziness.
Bottom-line, its too late to try and change the banned list. There are far to many zealots, as you no doubt have already seen reply to your thread. There is no reasoning with them, they think the R/C is correct and know what they are doing. Fact of the matter is, they don't, they are quite a joke actually.
A) Why, if you don't like playing a format, would you actually post in a sub-forum dedicated to said format?
B) We're zealots, alright. Just look at the recent unbanning of Worldgorger dragon and the pages of internet high fives and congratulatory statements we gave to RC.
C) A game without structure? What are we playing without structure? How do we even play a game without rules? Do you just throw the cards around and then pick them back up like 99 pick up? I don't even know what that means.
D) Wait, so if there were people complaining about moxes, sway, and biorhythm, then wouldn't the ban list actually make sense? Like we stop all the arguments by having a ban list so people would not play these cards that warp the format?
A) Why, if you don't like playing a format, would you actually post in a sub-forum dedicated to said format?
B) We're zealots, alright. Just look at the recent unbanning of Worldgorger dragon and the pages of internet high fives and congratulatory statements we gave to RC.
C) A game without structure? What are we playing without structure? How do we even play a game without rules? Do you just throw the cards around and then pick them back up like 99 pick up? I don't even know what that means.
D) Wait, so if there were people complaining about moxes, sway, and biorhythm, then wouldn't the ban list actually make sense? Like we stop all the arguments by having a ban list so people would not play these cards that warp the format?
To answer all of those questions you need only reference the "T-R-O-L-L" comment. Because if he isn't trolling he has a very poor grasp of EDH and MTG in general.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Through me the way to the suffering city; Through me the everlasting pain; Through me the way that runs among the Lost. Justice urged on my exalted Creator: Divine Power made me, The Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love. Nothing was made before me but eternal things And I endure eternally. Abandon all hope - You Who Enter Here.
Bottom-line, its too late to try and change the banned list. There are far to many zealots, as you no doubt have already seen reply to your thread. There is no reasoning with them, they think the R/C is correct and know what they are doing. Fact of the matter is, they don't, they are quite a joke actually.
I personally think the RC's banlist is pretty bad and needs some significant changes, both in actual cards and underlying philosophy.
That said, I would much rather have a banlist, any banlist, than an arbitrary list of bizarre additional rules designed to further one person's idea of "fun."
K405: I'd actually like to give out some reasons behind my post, however bad it might be.
Bitterroot: I can't say I disagree with either points. The banlist is inconsistent in terms of power level and fun level. However, it's still better than no banlist at all.
Hey, special thanks to Waiting in the Weeds, who got it spot on. I wasn't actually suggesting those rules. They're ridiculous, I know. I was just using them to illustrate an example. The point of the banned list isn't to prevent degenerate stuff - because it can't possibly succeed at that task - but to promote a certain playstyle. So I just figure a nice essay on what playstyle they want to encourage would be just as (in)effective as the banned list.
Again, major points:
1. The cards on the banned list are very powerful.
2. This is irrelevant, since there are no SANCTIONED tournaments (meaning that even if a LFGS has an EDH tourney, it matters as much as a jump-rope contest in terms of a governing body that creates the product that the tournaments promote having to care about it).
*Note on #2: The fact that Magic can be played competitively in a professional tournament setting is because Magic wanted a venue to advertise and promote a product they were selling - namely, the game of Magic. Any EDH tournament isn't related directly to the sale of product in this way (though indirectly, sure it is). So the success or failure of normal tournament Magic directly impacts the profits of the company sanctioning those tournaments and creating the rules for them. In the case of EDH, the group running/profiting from the tournaments is totally separate from the group governing the rules of the format. So while it makes sense for local shops to make their own banned lists specifically for the tournaments they're running, it isn't necessary for an organization like the RC that doesn't actually have a monetary stake. In other words, WotC needs tournaments to be fair in order to be popular, and popular in order to be profitable as a marketing venture. The RC doesn't need any such thing. Phew.
3. No banned list at all, social self-regulation, and local tournament-specific banned lists is what I feel would be healthiest for the format.
I am but one voice! Also, love all the discussion!
3. No banned list at all, social self-regulation, and local tournament-specific banned lists is what I feel would be healthiest for the format.
I really don't think this statement could be more wrong. Play groups would be incompatible with other play groups. Going to pick up edh games at events would be a nightmare of discussion before every game. And most people would probably not even start up the format on such loose rules. People need structure.
Agreed. But my point was that the lack of structure didn't stop people from sitting down at their kitchen tables and playing each other. As long as Commander isn't a sanctioned format, I just don't think it needs a banned list, simply because it doesn't really do anything.
i dislike all of your rules, aside from the 'tutor for top 20'. that sounds like it would add alot of depth to decks and not make them predictable. it would make players run more synergy.
although your other suggestions seem rather poor as they derive from the game itself in a bad way
That's a pretty strong statement & I'd be curious about what cards you'd add/remove & what change in philosophy you'd make?
Personally, I would add sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, and hermit druid to the list. While they aren't as explosive as they are in 1v1 games, they still tend to beridiculous.
Playing infect? You're going to 20 instead of 15
No infinites, and if you do have an infinite in your deck you can go up to 30 times with it. Infinite turns are an exception you only can go up to 10.
Thats about all we do when it comes to rules.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
They were never supposed to be. The commanders were printed to help increase the number of enemy pair and wedge legends. We didn't NEED another mono black, or mono green, general.
Also, asuza, azami, clique, skittles, iname, teferi, isamaru, and godo would like a word with you.
My H/W list
Apparently not good enough to justify a mono-colored deck if Moxen were unbanned.
Anyway i don't support this because there ARE tournaments for EDH. And some strats (hermit druid, clique) are dominating.
Yeah, but he's clearly not happy with the guidelines that are already set in place by the RC, because if he was, then he wouldn't be proposing a ridiculous set of alternate rules.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
I'm going to post this, again, because it deals with the exact complaint you have.
If the banlist isn't working for tournaments, the people running those tournaments need to develop their own list and tighten it up a bit. Which is why there are three banlists that you can find on this site. A TO being too lazy to run up a list for an EDH event is no reason to ***** about the official banlist, because that isn't what it was intended for.
The last statement I made about this was poorly worded. In a world where the moxen are legal, a deck with more colors has a slight edge because of the increased amount of broken mana rocks it can run. If moxen are banned, this is not an issue. Sol Ring/Mana Crypt are broken mana rocks, but every deck has an equal opportunity to run them. This is one of the areas where the banlist is fairly consistent.
So would Bosh, Memnarch, Geth, and Lin-Sivi. Actually mono color isn't as weak as some people seem to think it is. I've seen a dedicated Geth deck demolish a Sharuum deck 3 times in a row just because Sharuum couldn't do anything to amount to anything. I've seen Teferi completely shut down a board with 3 opponents early on and keep it locked till he combo'd off. I've even seen Tomorrow, Azami's familiar come from no where and demolish Momir Vig combo and Scion of the Ur-dragon same game.
THe banned list exists in order to remove un-fun cards. This isn't necessarily removing powerful cards, but it gets rid of un-fun cards. In fact, I would be VERY surprised if Braid's big sister, Sheoldred didn't get the banhammer pretty quick here.
"The Six"
Patron of the Moon
Ghoulcaller Gisa
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Karametra, God of Harvests
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
Vorel of the Hull Clade
I would. She's much more expensive and only hurts creature base. Braids on turn 2-4 can shut down an entire game. She's not nearly as powerful in the general seat as Braids. And some cards banned are unfun, some are just absurdly powerful. Like Time Walk and Recurring Nightmare. Time Walk for it's insanely low cost for what it does, and Recurring Nightmare for the fact that short of countering it there's very little that can stop it, and it turns every 2B that you have into a recur creature, albeit at sorcery speed but still.
Removing the banned list could easily see shenanigans like Priest of Gix, Priest of Urabrask, Infinite storm count from Recurring Nightmare, Ignite Memories/Tendrils of Agony. Or even factoring in "no infinites" using it with Gravepact to effectively board wipe every turn.
I was including Kokusho for posterity.:)
And I know sheoldred isnt as good as black Braids, but I have played for a long time, and I remember when Stax was a deck right after Saga. I still have nightmares. That was a terrifying strategy. It can be beaten, but it's not too fun to watch your opponent systematically shut you down, a la EDH Braids. (says the guy playing dredge
"The Six"
Patron of the Moon
Ghoulcaller Gisa
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Karametra, God of Harvests
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
Vorel of the Hull Clade
It is about on the level with, a child crying that one child got a toy that they wanted, but didn't know they wanted it, until they saw the other kid playing with the toy.
The average gamer can't play this game with out structure. Some out of inexperience, some out of sheer laziness.
Bottom-line, its too late to try and change the banned list. There are far to many zealots, as you no doubt have already seen reply to your thread. There is no reasoning with them, they think the R/C is correct and know what they are doing. Fact of the matter is, they don't, they are quite a joke actually.
Trolling infraction issued. -viper
Wow, this post has T-R-O-L-L written all over it.
Spam/flaming/backseat (take your pick) infraction issued. -viper
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
He didn't call anyone a noob so he is probably okay.
And he is wrong, while the banned list is not perfect and most people don't claim that. People support it because it has helped lead the format into wide player appeal. And with that they support the RC over all. As they are the ones that have fostered and grown the format. They are owed respect for that. Take a look at the last set of bannings for modern if you want to see overzealous bannings. The RC tends to take time and not knee jerk reaction every new set. Look at Emmy, he (it?) was giving plenty of time before being banned.
A) Why, if you don't like playing a format, would you actually post in a sub-forum dedicated to said format?
B) We're zealots, alright. Just look at the recent unbanning of Worldgorger dragon and the pages of internet high fives and congratulatory statements we gave to RC.
C) A game without structure? What are we playing without structure? How do we even play a game without rules? Do you just throw the cards around and then pick them back up like 99 pick up? I don't even know what that means.
D) Wait, so if there were people complaining about moxes, sway, and biorhythm, then wouldn't the ban list actually make sense? Like we stop all the arguments by having a ban list so people would not play these cards that warp the format?
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
To answer all of those questions you need only reference the "T-R-O-L-L" comment. Because if he isn't trolling he has a very poor grasp of EDH and MTG in general.
I personally think the RC's banlist is pretty bad and needs some significant changes, both in actual cards and underlying philosophy.
That said, I would much rather have a banlist, any banlist, than an arbitrary list of bizarre additional rules designed to further one person's idea of "fun."
Bitterroot: I can't say I disagree with either points. The banlist is inconsistent in terms of power level and fun level. However, it's still better than no banlist at all.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Again, major points:
1. The cards on the banned list are very powerful.
2. This is irrelevant, since there are no SANCTIONED tournaments (meaning that even if a LFGS has an EDH tourney, it matters as much as a jump-rope contest in terms of a governing body that creates the product that the tournaments promote having to care about it).
*Note on #2: The fact that Magic can be played competitively in a professional tournament setting is because Magic wanted a venue to advertise and promote a product they were selling - namely, the game of Magic. Any EDH tournament isn't related directly to the sale of product in this way (though indirectly, sure it is). So the success or failure of normal tournament Magic directly impacts the profits of the company sanctioning those tournaments and creating the rules for them. In the case of EDH, the group running/profiting from the tournaments is totally separate from the group governing the rules of the format. So while it makes sense for local shops to make their own banned lists specifically for the tournaments they're running, it isn't necessary for an organization like the RC that doesn't actually have a monetary stake. In other words, WotC needs tournaments to be fair in order to be popular, and popular in order to be profitable as a marketing venture. The RC doesn't need any such thing. Phew.
3. No banned list at all, social self-regulation, and local tournament-specific banned lists is what I feel would be healthiest for the format.
I am but one voice! Also, love all the discussion!
I really don't think this statement could be more wrong. Play groups would be incompatible with other play groups. Going to pick up edh games at events would be a nightmare of discussion before every game. And most people would probably not even start up the format on such loose rules. People need structure.
It was pretty small back then actually. And a huge lack of competition like now.
although your other suggestions seem rather poor as they derive from the game itself in a bad way
Personally, I would add sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, and hermit druid to the list. While they aren't as explosive as they are in 1v1 games, they still tend to beridiculous.
My H/W list