Also I seem to see a lot of people associating people that play greifer decks as bad players, why? Is it because we refuse to conform to other peoples ideas of "fun"?
Also I would like to know if any of you play greifer decks and how your playgroups react to them because I have heard people refusing to play in a game against such a deck (never mind the fact that there were like 5 people that would have played so the greifer would have had numerous people gunning for him)
They disenchant my Underworld Dreams. I don't even consider that to be a "griefing" card though frankly. Norn's Annex either, Kaervek I wouldn't even mark down as a "griefing" card. They're all easily answered and only Kaervek is even dangerous and just playing it down paints a bullseye on you.
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I am referring to decks that are built to punish an opponent any time they take any game action be it drawing cards playing lands playing creatures or failing to do so. There are many cards that do these effects I just gave a few generic examples
The issue playing against such decks is that they're not legitimate threats. At all. They exist solely to mess with other people, and can't win unless they rip an Insurrection. It would like if you invited someone to play a game with you and they dedicate their entire game not to winning, not to making the best play, but to simply stop anything you do via countermagic, removal, and kill spells. So at the end of the game your impact upon the game was absolutely naught, the person who messed with you went down in flames since they made poor plays over and over again simply to screw you over, and you end up having a very unsatisfying game. Seriously...why did you bother playing? At all?
Chaos players are a general nuisance, much like group hug players. They're not worth expending answers on but they disrupt everyones game plan dramatically. So killing them makes you lose the game because of other players but letting them stay around frustrates you to no end. The best answer is wiping them out with a combo kill or simply denying their capacity to annoy with Aura Shards and Gaddock Teeg.
I am referring to decks that are built to punish an opponent any time they take any game action be it drawing cards playing lands playing creatures or failing to do so. There are many cards that do these effects I just gave a few generic examples
Around my local group most will just see you lay down the general for the grief deck and everyone aims all cannons at your face and hammers you till your out then return to actually playing.
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@ Jimbo - I've never had to play against a chaos deck. Also I think "punisher" would have been the term most players on this site would have used... differing terms for decks I guess.
I would not even consider any of these cards griefer cards. When I think greifer I think Confusion in the ranks, Thieves' Auction, Scrambleverse, Mass land wipes for no reason. And Erayo style lock decks.
Hell I would go so far to say these are just bad cards. Most of which would not make the cut in many decks.
@ Jimbo - I've never had to play against a chaos deck. Also I think "punisher" would have been the term most players on this site would have used... differing terms for decks I guess.
Actually I think "Tax" is the term you are looking for. Something that you have to pay in addition to the normal casting cost. Tax decks can be annoying, such as GAAVI with winter orb and other such things. But I would rather play them then a gaka style greifer deck any day.
As others have said, I think "Griefer Deck" is the wrong term. "Punisher" or "Group Slug" are more commonly used for this. Griefer almost always refers to a deck simply mucking things up for everyone else for it's own sake. Punisher decks try to win with a legit strategy. "Tax" and "Stax" cards like Norn's Annex generally aren't called griefer either.
Maybe you should change the title of the post to be clearer.
I run a Kaalia Punisher deck (list in sig) that I enjoy, and my group is fine with it, but I only run it on occasion. By the same token, I enjoy playing against them sometimes, but it would get old quickly if it was every other game.
True griefer decks I hate with a passion as their reason for being is to ruin everyone elses enjoyment. Only a jack**s does that to other people, and I'll scoop and leave the table if someone is playing it.
Taxing effects, Kaervek, etc. are not exactly "griefing." Randomizing, though, is. Those are game-wreckers when the scale is large enough. Kaervek draws light ire compared to being forced to Warp World seven times in short order on turn 12. Bluh. (Yeah okay, serious exaggeration, but still, randomizers are far more irritating. I would go and say that Kaervek is a type of political-play card.
I won't say it's not annoying, but "griefer?" That's a little extreme.
If randomizing is part of the deck's strategy, it's not griefing.
So if the deck's strategy is to win by destroying all lands and mana sources repeatedly and win via everyone else scooping?
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Depends on whether the pilot's intention is to win or to grief. Griefing is a matter of intentions.
Some playgroups have no problem with mass LD. Some have no problem with randomness. Those things are relative.
I'd say if you're packing every mass ld spell your colors can run you're doing it to grief. Same with running every single chaos card. Some are good some aren't. Some just outright are terrible cards lol.
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To me, griefer cards are the ones that keep people from being able to cast spells. Mass land destruction is the biggest offender here, which is why I don't run it (targeted land destruction, however, is fair game).
Kaervek the Merciless isn't as much of a griefer card to me, as, say, Gaddock Teeg. Kaervek costs 7 to bring out, can be removed with cards like Swords to Plowshares or Wrath of God with very little repercussion, and doesn't protect himself. Gaddock Teeg, on the other hand, protects himself and keeps you from casting certain spells altogether, without even the option of losing life or creatures to get rid of him.
I once won off of a Chaos Warp and Radiate while piloting Ruhan of the Fomori. It put two swords and a Lightning Greaves into play for me, which I equipped to my general and started swinging for the fences against a largely creatureless board. It was very risky for me since I knew at least one of my opponents played Eldrazi, but I did it for the entertainment factor, not to grief. That deck plays lots of random cards that can hose me just as much as they hose my opponents, like Proteus Staff.
Those dont seem like greifer cards to me. The term greifer for me refers back to Star Wars Galaxes when someone would kill you over and over again just to do it.
The same thing really can't be applied here.
Now I would considers someone playing warp world + hive mine + confusion in the ranks + grip of chaos to be not really griefing but building a deck with the intent to annoy,
I run Enduring Ideal with a ton of ways to frustrate and control. It's REALLY unfun to play against and being a "nice" person, I took it apart. Sadly, it's unfun for me to play anything that just turns creatures sideways... so I currantly sit without an EDH deck. Then when I find out there is a tournament or EDH day at the shop... I scramble to build something and it ends up being a bunch of "good" cards with my combo thrown in.
To be fair though, they usually have about 3 turns before I can lock out everyone. And I've taken out some of the more frustrating cards like Humility to give people a fighting chance.
Cards like underworld dreams and kaervek are not overpowered in my opinion. Underworld dreams does very little unless you let other people draw extra which is never a good move. Kaervek is very powerful but he costs 7 and is a creature so someone should be able to deal with it. I find one of the most powerful finishers is Vicious Shadows. You usually end of blowing out players if they praetors counseled or just turning up the clock on players with 5+ cards but it is not overpowered either.
Depends on how extreme the definition of a griefer is. They gotta have a way/theme/mechanic to win the game. One friend of mine plays a stealy deck. That's alot of grief packed into one deck as everything I play gets stolen. But he has a way to win....so it's all good. Then I developed my Wort, the Raidmother deck. Nothing to steal in it and his deck fell apart. One must adapt to the meta.
However, if he/she just is just sitting at the table to prolong the game with no intension of winning and only of griefing, then I say that person can go find other like-minded individuals and have as long a stand off as they want.
He/she would not be playing at my table as there is nothing worse than sitting for 4 hrs staring at your hand saying 'draw...go', no matter the type of griefer.
When an oppoentent casts mass LD or Jokulhaups then leaves the game. Now that's griefing and not fun.
Wow....if someone did that to me I would ban him...and I would post his name everywhere so everyone else could ban him. I would then search his IP and ban that too. General theme here.....ban
You could not get something that opposes the spirit of the game more than mass LD and quit.
I play a deck with lots of chaos and steal effects, because of budget restrictions. It's a straight up Norin deck. That being said, I never play all my chaos effects with no clear direction. There have been a number of games that I've sat through the whole match with a planar chaos in my hand or with an unused obliterate because they weren't called for.
If my enemies start accelerating, I lay down the appropriate chaos card to put them down and it usually ends up boosting the rest of us up, then when someone else has a clear advantage I repeat the process, and then when everyone is too thinned out or scared to play things, I swoop in for the win. You're trying to stomp everyone with huge creatures? confusion in the ranks. You're going on a countering spree? Planar chaos.
My group finds it funny, they don't mind and frankly it adds another dimension to the game.
My point is that the style of deck isn't the problem, it's the player.
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Decks:
EDH: R Norin The Annoying R BUG Mimeoplasm BUG
Casual: BBB Gravepact! BBB UUU Blackvise UUU GR Pandemonium GR
I personally hate mass land destruction. Or really anything that will slow down a 4 player game that already takes an hour or more. I am also opposed to infinite combos. I know its kind of a cliche, but we already know the formats broken. A little restraint never killed anybody. Or maybe it has. Thats a whole other topic.
mass land destruction is necessary in my play group. we have 2 guys wh do nothing but land ramp in the first 6ish turns. that normaly wouldn't be a problem but we took one of their decks apart to find out how much it cost to make. 2504$.
we slow him down some but there is a point somewhere obove 1000 dollars in 1 edh deck where it takes multiple 2-300$ decks to fight evenly with you. and then we have to listen to you *****ing about how we are ganging up on mister mass land accel all because we were not allowed to land d you? mass land d is very important to punish people who think lands should be sacred and then go and get 8+ lands by turn 4.
To me it's the mentality of the player that causes griefing. If they want to play to make it so no one has a good time, they're griefing. I used to run both stasis and winter orb in my Sharuum deck (untapping every turn with Mycosynth Lattice and Unwinding Clock) but it wasn't fun to play against so I took out stasis and I'll probably nuke the winter orb soon as well. Stasis didn't give me enough of an advantage for the cost is extracted (everyone gunning at me).
LD is a legitimate strategy if you have a plan. Casting Jokulhaups and then walking off is being a griefer, but cycling decree of annihilation that leaves your opponents crippled and gives you the clear advantage (say with you having a bunch of mana rocks and creatures still on the board) is playing smart.
Yea my playgroup doesnt have anything close to a 2500 dollar deck. Thats disgusting in my opinion.
As far as ld goes to each his own. its not my thing. Going turn 3 Jhoira, turn 4 suspend obliterate, turn 5 suspend ulamog(or something similar) every game is just a dick move.
The way I look at it is if you want to win that bad play standard.
If so why?
If not why?
Also I seem to see a lot of people associating people that play greifer decks as bad players, why? Is it because we refuse to conform to other peoples ideas of "fun"?
Also I would like to know if any of you play greifer decks and how your playgroups react to them because I have heard people refusing to play in a game against such a deck (never mind the fact that there were like 5 people that would have played so the greifer would have had numerous people gunning for him)
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The issue playing against such decks is that they're not legitimate threats. At all. They exist solely to mess with other people, and can't win unless they rip an Insurrection. It would like if you invited someone to play a game with you and they dedicate their entire game not to winning, not to making the best play, but to simply stop anything you do via countermagic, removal, and kill spells. So at the end of the game your impact upon the game was absolutely naught, the person who messed with you went down in flames since they made poor plays over and over again simply to screw you over, and you end up having a very unsatisfying game. Seriously...why did you bother playing? At all?
Chaos players are a general nuisance, much like group hug players. They're not worth expending answers on but they disrupt everyones game plan dramatically. So killing them makes you lose the game because of other players but letting them stay around frustrates you to no end. The best answer is wiping them out with a combo kill or simply denying their capacity to annoy with Aura Shards and Gaddock Teeg.
Around my local group most will just see you lay down the general for the grief deck and everyone aims all cannons at your face and hammers you till your out then return to actually playing.
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
I would not even consider any of these cards griefer cards. When I think greifer I think Confusion in the ranks, Thieves' Auction, Scrambleverse, Mass land wipes for no reason. And Erayo style lock decks.
Hell I would go so far to say these are just bad cards. Most of which would not make the cut in many decks.
Actually I think "Tax" is the term you are looking for. Something that you have to pay in addition to the normal casting cost. Tax decks can be annoying, such as GAAVI with winter orb and other such things. But I would rather play them then a gaka style greifer deck any day.
Maybe you should change the title of the post to be clearer.
I run a Kaalia Punisher deck (list in sig) that I enjoy, and my group is fine with it, but I only run it on occasion. By the same token, I enjoy playing against them sometimes, but it would get old quickly if it was every other game.
True griefer decks I hate with a passion as their reason for being is to ruin everyone elses enjoyment. Only a jack**s does that to other people, and I'll scoop and leave the table if someone is playing it.
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Stonebrow: Breaking Things
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I won't say it's not annoying, but "griefer?" That's a little extreme.
So if the deck's strategy is to win by destroying all lands and mana sources repeatedly and win via everyone else scooping?
I'd say if you're packing every mass ld spell your colors can run you're doing it to grief. Same with running every single chaos card. Some are good some aren't. Some just outright are terrible cards lol.
Kaervek the Merciless isn't as much of a griefer card to me, as, say, Gaddock Teeg. Kaervek costs 7 to bring out, can be removed with cards like Swords to Plowshares or Wrath of God with very little repercussion, and doesn't protect himself. Gaddock Teeg, on the other hand, protects himself and keeps you from casting certain spells altogether, without even the option of losing life or creatures to get rid of him.
I once won off of a Chaos Warp and Radiate while piloting Ruhan of the Fomori. It put two swords and a Lightning Greaves into play for me, which I equipped to my general and started swinging for the fences against a largely creatureless board. It was very risky for me since I knew at least one of my opponents played Eldrazi, but I did it for the entertainment factor, not to grief. That deck plays lots of random cards that can hose me just as much as they hose my opponents, like Proteus Staff.
The same thing really can't be applied here.
Now I would considers someone playing warp world + hive mine + confusion in the ranks + grip of chaos to be not really griefing but building a deck with the intent to annoy,
To be fair though, they usually have about 3 turns before I can lock out everyone. And I've taken out some of the more frustrating cards like Humility to give people a fighting chance.
Yup.
Casting those same thing and following it with a lord of extinction is jund greatness
However, if he/she just is just sitting at the table to prolong the game with no intension of winning and only of griefing, then I say that person can go find other like-minded individuals and have as long a stand off as they want.
He/she would not be playing at my table as there is nothing worse than sitting for 4 hrs staring at your hand saying 'draw...go', no matter the type of griefer.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
Wow....if someone did that to me I would ban him...and I would post his name everywhere so everyone else could ban him. I would then search his IP and ban that too. General theme here.....ban
You could not get something that opposes the spirit of the game more than mass LD and quit.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
If my enemies start accelerating, I lay down the appropriate chaos card to put them down and it usually ends up boosting the rest of us up, then when someone else has a clear advantage I repeat the process, and then when everyone is too thinned out or scared to play things, I swoop in for the win. You're trying to stomp everyone with huge creatures? confusion in the ranks. You're going on a countering spree? Planar chaos.
My group finds it funny, they don't mind and frankly it adds another dimension to the game.
My point is that the style of deck isn't the problem, it's the player.
EDH:
R Norin The Annoying R
BUG Mimeoplasm BUG
Casual:
BBB Gravepact! BBB
UUU Blackvise UUU
GR Pandemonium GR
Anyways, my 2¢.
Cube 360 cards, unpowered.
Modern:
URStormUR
Block
RWHumansRW
URGStalkerURG
we slow him down some but there is a point somewhere obove 1000 dollars in 1 edh deck where it takes multiple 2-300$ decks to fight evenly with you. and then we have to listen to you *****ing about how we are ganging up on mister mass land accel all because we were not allowed to land d you? mass land d is very important to punish people who think lands should be sacred and then go and get 8+ lands by turn 4.
LD is a legitimate strategy if you have a plan. Casting Jokulhaups and then walking off is being a griefer, but cycling decree of annihilation that leaves your opponents crippled and gives you the clear advantage (say with you having a bunch of mana rocks and creatures still on the board) is playing smart.
Building silly decks for silly games.
As far as ld goes to each his own. its not my thing. Going turn 3 Jhoira, turn 4 suspend obliterate, turn 5 suspend ulamog(or something similar) every game is just a dick move.
The way I look at it is if you want to win that bad play standard.
Cube 360 cards, unpowered.
Modern:
URStormUR
Block
RWHumansRW
URGStalkerURG