But there is no white card printed in the history of magic that lets you reanimate creatures from your opponents graveyard. That simply isn't a white effect, in fact its a very very black effect and that's why from a flavor standpoint it is both a black and white card.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
The poll here is interesting. Touring the posts it can be seen that the vocal people, like myself, are largely for the change. However there are quite a few silent people voicing against it.
I agree with Rosewater. The point of Hybrids and cards with other colors on them is that they can be played without both colors. I think color identity should restrict mana produced and mana cost with exception of hybrids and phybrids.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
A commander deck may not generate mana outside of the colors of its general. Any other mana generated becomes colorless mana. Spells can only be included if the can be cast using these types of mana without having to pay alternate costs.
This allows hybrid spells, phyrexian mana (not an alternate cost), and Obelisk of Alara like cards, but does not allow for Elvish Piper/Jhoria/Force of Will shenanigans.
@Luminum - If i could +1 each of your posts I most definitely would. I absolutely HATE how hybrid cards are unfairly religated to such a specific niche. I dislike inconsistancies. To me this whole argument of flavor is just as subjective as what the term "casual" means, or even "fun". Basing a format so strongly on such vague terms can only lead to issues. There is a reason the banlist is constantly under attack.
So you think more restrictions are healthy for a game, I agree... but to an extent. I could create a game that literally said you can only draw 1 card a turn, ban all tutors, be a 40 card format that every non basic land card must be a 4 of. Thats exceedingly restrictive and it would be a miserable game to play. There needs to be a balance to restriction and options. For a long time before WotC decided to get involved I was seriously worried that the number of playable legends would just get over used. Sure each set can come along and bring 1-3 extra options but ultimately not all of them are even playable. The ones that are playable usually out do previous legends (geth > Lim-Dul.. etc). The amount of restriction in the game wasn't changed but there wasn't enough room to run with... it was an area where having more options out weighted the advantage of restrictions and thus i'm happy we are having alot more "legendary support".
For sanities sake i don't think its even possible to ever actually fully realise a format based on terms that change definition from one person to another. oh this is "fun" and that is "casual" and thats for "flavor" reasons is just miserable. Personally I think the "flavor" of this format is heavily found in it being a "casual" non-rotating format that lets me and my friends live through out the "fun" nostalgia of playing MTG growing up. I used each of those terms to describe what many would call "unflavorful", "competitive" and "boring". To us the "general" or "commander" is just a peice required in deck building. We don't care what Skullbriar, the Walking Grave thinks about "debtors' knell" but he fits the the theme of the deck and so does debtors' knell... Its all so subjective, there is no way that my casual zombie apocolypse deck can be considered competitive, but people are sure to associate my avoidance of "flavor" as being just that.
Ultimately the problem with "hybrid" and "phybrid" issues are more long term than what we have access to today. WotC wants to take commander into consideration when designing new cards, but there isn't any way to template an "or" onto cards that would fit the current rules settings (I personally thought the hybrids/phybrids did that as well as could be done) without a line of text that read "Ignore color identity when played in the Commander format". Maybe they will never have a reason to create more hybrid/phybrid cards specifically for commander, but this horrible "flavor based argument" means that they have to literally work around an outside rules commitee to effect their own game.... thats just not right.
The City of Copper argument was exactly demonstrating this and pushes me further to the next issue of lands. just glancing over my commander deck lists (the only format i currently play) its easy to see i love enemy colors and unless WotC makes a sudden return to Ravnica (the best block ever btw) or creates another entirely new block that hinges on enemy pairs/wedges i'm not even able to create semi decent (read reliable) mana bases. Are these Xenophobic Commanders so Mana Racist that they wont visit a land like arcane sanctum because they can't use every aspect of the location? But they will turn around and go to city of brass? They will traverse the Esper Panorama?
Flavor can be found in any format... it doesn't need to be "baked in". I know several people who play 60c 4x formats who build tribal decks, or build around specific legends and cards. Casual will forever be debated about and fun will be subjective eternally.... (true story I hear some people used to have alot of fun disparaging an entire race). The status quo doesn't even hold up to your flavor stand point as many people just throw random 5 color generals in the zone and run with an entire deck that doesn't make any sense flavorfully (really Karona is the commander for you deck that doesn't have more than 5 creatures and they don't even share a creature type? Yep, i love to drink Corona's lol's i'm so cleverz).
Ultimately I don't want mono black reanimator throwing down Akroma's or Iona, or dream halls going nuts everywhere, but hybrid/phybrid and split cards were designed to be flexible and frankly can fit very nicely into most of the definitions of "flavorful". Why would The Mimeoplasm NOT want to include crime // punishment? As a general who's goal is to control the board and fill the graveyard it just seems like it would fit right up his ally.
edit: As a minor aside i know a guy who would imediately put together a mono white, Kentaro, the Smiling Cat deck that runs every single samurai ever printed LOL
Why are we taking the opinion of a guy who almost never ploays commander seriosly when it comes to a commander issue? I can take luminum seriosly cause he plays EDH, but Maro?
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Why are we taking the opinion of a guy who almost never ploays commander seriosly when it comes to a commander issue? I can take luminum seriosly cause he plays EDH, but Maro?
Also says he dislikes multiplayer. That drops his credibility 1000 pts in my book.
I hope no one is crazy enough to think rosewater's rules change is a good idea, but this is as good a time as any to discuss possible changes to the rules. I know I've long been slightly vexed by the redundancy of those two rules, and although I don't know if there's an easy solution, it's worth discussing, even if the discussion's origin is insane.
and even if no one pays attention to my remarkably sensible ideas.
I don't care who an argument comes from as long as the argument is, itself, a valid one. I'm only using MaRo's comments here because he's a high-profile name in Magic and it was a good excuse to bring up this issue which has been brought up in the past, but I feel is still a valid one.
I don't think it's what the general can do that's flavorful, but how it can go about doing it. A character like Sisay would say "hey, this artifact could really help us save Dominaria by temporarily subduing the will of those who are trying to attack us," whereas a character like Geth would say "I WILL HAVE THE POWER!" And because it's an artifact, they have no qualms about casting it, as it doesn't require them to harness an elemental force they don't comprehend.
In my estimation, it's not.
Every game has rules that have to be adhered to, because seeing what can be done within the confines of those rules is what makes the game interesting. If I were allowed to whip out a chainsaw while playing ice hockey and kill all the members of the opposing team, would I win? Probably. However, it would be unsporting and pointless. Giving players access to all colours of mana would be analagous to whipping out the chainsaw for some players, because all they would do would be to build five colour "good stuff" decks. Basically, it would end up being "the player who owns the most historically powerful cards wins." And THAT would be unflavorful.
1. The point is, the flavor argument is untenable. Artifacts (and colorless spells) break the color pie by the very fact that they have no color. Just because 1 has no mana symbols and the other, colorless hybrids, does doesn't change the fact that both could be cast without 'harnessing elemental forces beyond their reckoning' (paraphrased, on a bus).
2. That's my point. Using a 5 color general because the rules demand it, even though his deck could cast all other 99 spells using only white mana goes against the spirit of Commander.
3a. Tired argument about games and rules is tired. The rules are arbitrary as they are right now. They would be arbitrary with my or others' modifications. I would claim that they would be less so, but people are allowed to disagree.
3b. People can already run 5 color good stuff. People can run "optimal" decks. People choose not to. Changing this rule won't change that.
3c. I never suggested people should run 5 color goodstuff. I just think it'd be reasonable for monowhite to run minister of impediments if it wanted to.
As for Debtors Knell and whether it is 'white or black' or 'white and black'. It doesn't matter. If we said that players can't play spells outside of the modern color pie then it would. But we don't stop people from running psionic blast or dreamscape artist or ... It is castable using only white mana, it should be castable in a deck that only produces white mana.
MARO is also the guy who says "test test test", so yeah, I think his opinions on EDH are going to be questionable. That said, others in R&D that do love EDH share this particular opinion.
I think if people size this issue up objectively, they will realize it is primarily an aesthetic decision. The WOTC opinion here does offer slight rule streamlining, but on the other hand continuous rule trimming can be tedious for players.
Maro's suggestion almost does away with the color identity entirely though and I think that is really bad, color identity is what makes Commander Commander (along with the general) and not Highlander. Not to mention the fact that decks could be playing any card so things like Dream Halls, Reanimator Targets, Show and Tell, Chord of Calling, etc. get so much better and would probably tip the format on its head.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I think if people size this issue up objectively, they will realize it is primarily an aesthetic decision. The WOTC opinion here does offer slight rule streamlining, but on the other hand continuous rule trimming can be tedious for players.
It doesn't streamline at all. It makes it more complicated by adding exceptions. No one learning EDH has ever said to me "Does that mean I can't play Debtors Knell in a Geth deck?" because they understand intuitively that if it has a mana symbol outside of the generals identity then it won't fit. As easy as the rule says.
I garuntee you we would have people saying "wait... I thought you said we can only put cards that match general's color identity so why are you playing Knell in a Geth deck" when they see it with the WOTC rules idea. And all we would have to give them is some drawn out non-sensicle exception.
The official rules state that Unmake is a black AND white card. To implement these rules there would have to be a special EDH set of rules that say "for the purpose of EDH unamake is EITHER black or white, whichever fits your general". Thats just clunky and silly and tacky. If you don't think it is then I don't know what to say.
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I hate this idea. For one it will make deck construction less diverse now that you can use hybrid cards that are powerful.
Then if you stack your deck full of cards that you can't cast, you could put powerful cards that work well in your graveyard. For example, you could put Anger in your black deck, discard it, and then have all your creatures have haste.
I think it's perfectly fine the way it is. Anything that will change the rules to give decks access to more must have auto includes is a bad thing.
I understand the arguments against. I too would not like to see the blowback from certain strategies--reanimation in particular. I know I'd be putting Akroma in my Adun. Why the he'll wouldn't I? ;-)
But I also agree with MaRo that hybrids are really an "or" not an "and," so the solutions becomes adding this line to the rules:
"Hybrid mana symbols represent -EITHER- of their colors."
i think its a good idea on paper, but a terrible idea in practice. it does too much to dilute the purpose of the format. its the restrictions that make the games interesting and the deck building a challenge. many of the reasons i'm against have been listed already, and my other major complaint is that sure you could make hybrid cards be whatever color fits your general's identity... but from a flavor standpoint does it really make sense to be able to cast unmake in a savra deck when the card isn't just black, but also white? it doesn't really matter that the hybrid costs are meant to be paid with either color, the spells are still BOTH colors and such from a flavor standpoint it makes zero sense to be able to cast off color spells.
we're playing edh here, a format centered around the general and the limitations there of, not just highlander.
I understand the arguments against. I too would not like to see the blowback from certain strategies--reanimation in particular. I know I'd be putting Akroma in my Adun. Why the he'll wouldn't I? ;-)
But I also agree with MaRo that hybrids are really an "or" not an "and," so the solutions becomes adding this line to the rules:
"Hybrid mana symbols represent -EITHER- of their colors."
Problem solved.
Do you mean that Reaper King can go in any decks since my I can play colorless creatures in Mono-white for example? It's either rainbow OR Colorless?
@sheldon- i would first like to say i really appreciate you talking to us personally and would really hope that other rc members would consider doing the same. We really dont mean to be rude to you and only do so because we we all feel very strongly about this format because of how great you have helped make it. We simply want it to be as good as it can be which is why we get contentious at times.
With that said I want to make it clear my next question isn't meant to be rude I simply could not find a delicate way of phrasing it.
Why do you think that your method fits in a flavor sense. It seemed pretty clear that hybrid cards were designed as one or the other not both. Why do you argue that commanders would not associate with things that may be cast by the other colors? If someone mind bends my elesh norn's martial coup would my elesh norn shout "HALT!" and cease casting it? I always felt it was really clear what the flavor of hybrid cards was by the dozens of comments the design team made on the subject. Why are these considerations being ignored?
I garuntee you we would have people saying "wait... I thought you said we can only put cards that match general's color identity so why are you playing Knell in a Geth deck" when they see it with the WOTC rules idea. And all we would have to give them is some drawn out non-sensicle exception.
"Hybrid mana symbols can count as either one of their colors. So, for example, Knell can be played in a Geth deck because it's a black spell, and it has no white mana symbols-only symbols that could be white mana symbols."
Yes, that's a very drawn-out and nonsensical argument.
The official rules state that Unmake is a black AND white card. To implement these rules there would have to be a special EDH set of rules that say "for the purpose of EDH unamake is EITHER black or white, whichever fits your general". Thats just clunky and silly and tacky. If you don't think it is then I don't know what to say.
It's not clunky at all. It's a simple change: from AND to OR.
i think its a good idea on paper, but a terrible idea in practice. it does too much to dilute the purpose of the format. its the restrictions that make the games interesting and the deck building a challenge.
While restrictions are very important, as you say, not all restrictions are good ones. Can you honestly say, for instance, that the purpose of the format was diluted when Memnarch, Thelon and Bosh became legal generals?
A restriction denying a specific subset of spells the opportunity to be played in EDH the same way they're played in every other format in existence is not a good restriction.
many of the reasons i'm against have been listed already, and my other major complaint is that sure you could make hybrid cards be whatever color fits your general's identity... but from a flavor standpoint does it really make sense to be able to cast unmake in a savra deck when the card isn't just black, but also white?
Actually, it makes perfect sense from a flavor standpoint. The flavor of hybrid spells is that they're spells that can be cast by two different types(or rather, colors) of spellcasters. If you've ever played Dungeons and Dragons, you know how there are some spells, like Summon Monster, that can be learned by both Wizards and Clerics, and other spells, like Cure Light Wounds, that can be learned by both Clerics and Druids. That's essentially what hybrid spells are. The current rules regarding hybrid spells are a bit like rolling up a Wizard that only knows spells that no other class can learn. It's not going to seriously detract from the fun, but it is kind of stupid.
They were designed for both. That's why them have both (or more) mana symbols on them.
Why would Elesh Norn care if someone Mind Bends a Martial Coup? She's not the one using it. Because she can't. She's white.
If a hybrid spell were meant to only be used by someone with both colors of mana, it would be a normal "gold" multicolor spell. Show me a way to have a spell that is "either/or" between two colors, without using both colors of mana symbols, and that argument might have some weight.
Some individual hybrid spells bleed a bit between what each of its two colors can normally do. But that's a far cry from being the same as a normal gold card, and a good deal less objectionable than what many normal single-colored cards can do. Yes, the spell is two colors, by way of technicality. But at that point you'e favoring the letter of the rules over the spirit of the mana symbol and what it represents, in terms of flavor.
What? I don't know what you're asking for--Marisi's Twinclaws? I don't get it.
What he means is that there's no good way of making a card that can be used by Color A OR Color B that doesn't have the mana symbols of Color A AND Color B printed on it in some form.
The point of a spell like Cold-Eyed Selkie is that it can be cast as either a Green spell, a Blue spell, or a Green-Blue spell; it fits into all those categories. It's a multicolor spell, technically, but it acts like a mono-colored spell of either of its colors when necessary. You don't need to have knowledge or access to more than one of its colors to use it. One or the other. Or both, if you like. But you're never required to have both. Except in Commander. Hybrid cards are designed as "or" spells. They're meant to be "or." They are not "and." They are two colors, but they never require more than one to use. That's a major difference from normal multicolor, and ignoring that difference doesn't make sense to me.
can't we just allow hybrids and not allow other multi color stuff?
I mean unmake is both a white ability and a black ability so lets let the black deck run it right?
Hybrid cards were meant to be played by pure color decks too. thats what the designers intended.
Phryxian mana cards were meant to be played by all color decks too. thats what the designers intended.
The arguments read the same to me so therefore if you are changing the format to allow one you should probably change it to allow another. I don't think there is any good argument for why only one change but not the other if "intended design" of hybrids is the reason people are using to justify changing the rules.
phryxian metamorph in every deck. tezzerets gambit in every deck. dismember in every deck. act of agression. moltensteel dragon. rage extractor. ruthless invasion. birthing pod. noxious revival. lashwrithe. hex parasite.
You realy want all this available to any deck?
ok.
I think you see it as a red/green hybrid mana symbols being a step below a red and a green mana symbol, that hybrids mean they don't reach that full potential of being both colors.
Instead, all I can think about right now are Spellbreak Behemoth and Vexing Shusher. Spellbreaker hates blue. VS hates blue. Spellbreaker needs both colors, but VS can use either-or. With hybrids, I see the latter card as "So intermingled is their hatred of blue that these colors allow the other to coincide within some creature/spell to reach the shared ultimate purpose." They both accomplish "hating blue."
You can play a Cold-Eyed Selkie with just green mana, but just realize you want to use a merfolk....to draw you cards after dealing damage. Keen Sense is a time-twisted version of Curiosity.
It makes no sense to me to ignore the other color. Everything would just be 2/B if the other color didn't matter....but it's not....because the other color obviously matters.
Hystrodon, by the way. And that new green instant in M12. Green's been getting "draw a card after dealing damage" for a while now.
Your interpretation of hybrid is different than Wizards of the Coast's version of hybrid, and different than mine. I defer to the people who created and defined the mechanic for what it represents, which is the portion of both colors that intersects, not a combination of the two. Individual cards may blur that distinction but that's the individual cards' faults, not the mechanic in itself.
But there is no white card printed in the history of magic that lets you reanimate creatures from your opponents graveyard. That simply isn't a white effect, in fact its a very very black effect and that's why from a flavor standpoint it is both a black and white card.
I agree with Rosewater. The point of Hybrids and cards with other colors on them is that they can be played without both colors. I think color identity should restrict mana produced and mana cost with exception of hybrids and phybrids.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
A commander deck may not generate mana outside of the colors of its general. Any other mana generated becomes colorless mana. Spells can only be included if the can be cast using these types of mana without having to pay alternate costs.
This allows hybrid spells, phyrexian mana (not an alternate cost), and Obelisk of Alara like cards, but does not allow for Elvish Piper/Jhoria/Force of Will shenanigans.
So you think more restrictions are healthy for a game, I agree... but to an extent. I could create a game that literally said you can only draw 1 card a turn, ban all tutors, be a 40 card format that every non basic land card must be a 4 of. Thats exceedingly restrictive and it would be a miserable game to play. There needs to be a balance to restriction and options. For a long time before WotC decided to get involved I was seriously worried that the number of playable legends would just get over used. Sure each set can come along and bring 1-3 extra options but ultimately not all of them are even playable. The ones that are playable usually out do previous legends (geth > Lim-Dul.. etc). The amount of restriction in the game wasn't changed but there wasn't enough room to run with... it was an area where having more options out weighted the advantage of restrictions and thus i'm happy we are having alot more "legendary support".
For sanities sake i don't think its even possible to ever actually fully realise a format based on terms that change definition from one person to another. oh this is "fun" and that is "casual" and thats for "flavor" reasons is just miserable. Personally I think the "flavor" of this format is heavily found in it being a "casual" non-rotating format that lets me and my friends live through out the "fun" nostalgia of playing MTG growing up. I used each of those terms to describe what many would call "unflavorful", "competitive" and "boring". To us the "general" or "commander" is just a peice required in deck building. We don't care what Skullbriar, the Walking Grave thinks about "debtors' knell" but he fits the the theme of the deck and so does debtors' knell... Its all so subjective, there is no way that my casual zombie apocolypse deck can be considered competitive, but people are sure to associate my avoidance of "flavor" as being just that.
Ultimately the problem with "hybrid" and "phybrid" issues are more long term than what we have access to today. WotC wants to take commander into consideration when designing new cards, but there isn't any way to template an "or" onto cards that would fit the current rules settings (I personally thought the hybrids/phybrids did that as well as could be done) without a line of text that read "Ignore color identity when played in the Commander format". Maybe they will never have a reason to create more hybrid/phybrid cards specifically for commander, but this horrible "flavor based argument" means that they have to literally work around an outside rules commitee to effect their own game.... thats just not right.
The City of Copper argument was exactly demonstrating this and pushes me further to the next issue of lands. just glancing over my commander deck lists (the only format i currently play) its easy to see i love enemy colors and unless WotC makes a sudden return to Ravnica (the best block ever btw) or creates another entirely new block that hinges on enemy pairs/wedges i'm not even able to create semi decent (read reliable) mana bases. Are these Xenophobic Commanders so Mana Racist that they wont visit a land like arcane sanctum because they can't use every aspect of the location? But they will turn around and go to city of brass? They will traverse the Esper Panorama?
Flavor can be found in any format... it doesn't need to be "baked in". I know several people who play 60c 4x formats who build tribal decks, or build around specific legends and cards. Casual will forever be debated about and fun will be subjective eternally.... (true story I hear some people used to have alot of fun disparaging an entire race). The status quo doesn't even hold up to your flavor stand point as many people just throw random 5 color generals in the zone and run with an entire deck that doesn't make any sense flavorfully (really Karona is the commander for you deck that doesn't have more than 5 creatures and they don't even share a creature type? Yep, i love to drink Corona's lol's i'm so cleverz).
Ultimately I don't want mono black reanimator throwing down Akroma's or Iona, or dream halls going nuts everywhere, but hybrid/phybrid and split cards were designed to be flexible and frankly can fit very nicely into most of the definitions of "flavorful". Why would The Mimeoplasm NOT want to include crime // punishment? As a general who's goal is to control the board and fill the graveyard it just seems like it would fit right up his ally.
edit: As a minor aside i know a guy who would imediately put together a mono white, Kentaro, the Smiling Cat deck that runs every single samurai ever printed LOL
Why are we taking the opinion of a guy who almost never ploays commander seriosly when it comes to a commander issue? I can take luminum seriosly cause he plays EDH, but Maro?
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Also says he dislikes multiplayer. That drops his credibility 1000 pts in my book.
I hope no one is crazy enough to think rosewater's rules change is a good idea, but this is as good a time as any to discuss possible changes to the rules. I know I've long been slightly vexed by the redundancy of those two rules, and although I don't know if there's an easy solution, it's worth discussing, even if the discussion's origin is insane.
and even if no one pays attention to my remarkably sensible ideas.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
1. The point is, the flavor argument is untenable. Artifacts (and colorless spells) break the color pie by the very fact that they have no color. Just because 1 has no mana symbols and the other, colorless hybrids, does doesn't change the fact that both could be cast without 'harnessing elemental forces beyond their reckoning' (paraphrased, on a bus).
2. That's my point. Using a 5 color general because the rules demand it, even though his deck could cast all other 99 spells using only white mana goes against the spirit of Commander.
3a. Tired argument about games and rules is tired. The rules are arbitrary as they are right now. They would be arbitrary with my or others' modifications. I would claim that they would be less so, but people are allowed to disagree.
3b. People can already run 5 color good stuff. People can run "optimal" decks. People choose not to. Changing this rule won't change that.
3c. I never suggested people should run 5 color goodstuff. I just think it'd be reasonable for monowhite to run minister of impediments if it wanted to.
As for Debtors Knell and whether it is 'white or black' or 'white and black'. It doesn't matter. If we said that players can't play spells outside of the modern color pie then it would. But we don't stop people from running psionic blast or dreamscape artist or ... It is castable using only white mana, it should be castable in a deck that only produces white mana.
Maro's suggestion almost does away with the color identity entirely though and I think that is really bad, color identity is what makes Commander Commander (along with the general) and not Highlander. Not to mention the fact that decks could be playing any card so things like Dream Halls, Reanimator Targets, Show and Tell, Chord of Calling, etc. get so much better and would probably tip the format on its head.
I garuntee you we would have people saying "wait... I thought you said we can only put cards that match general's color identity so why are you playing Knell in a Geth deck" when they see it with the WOTC rules idea. And all we would have to give them is some drawn out non-sensicle exception.
The official rules state that Unmake is a black AND white card. To implement these rules there would have to be a special EDH set of rules that say "for the purpose of EDH unamake is EITHER black or white, whichever fits your general". Thats just clunky and silly and tacky. If you don't think it is then I don't know what to say.
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URStorm
RBurn
Then if you stack your deck full of cards that you can't cast, you could put powerful cards that work well in your graveyard. For example, you could put Anger in your black deck, discard it, and then have all your creatures have haste.
I think it's perfectly fine the way it is. Anything that will change the rules to give decks access to more must have auto includes is a bad thing.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
But I also agree with MaRo that hybrids are really an "or" not an "and," so the solutions becomes adding this line to the rules:
"Hybrid mana symbols represent -EITHER- of their colors."
Problem solved.
we're playing edh here, a format centered around the general and the limitations there of, not just highlander.
Do you mean that Reaper King can go in any decks since my I can play colorless creatures in Mono-white for example? It's either rainbow OR Colorless?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
With that said I want to make it clear my next question isn't meant to be rude I simply could not find a delicate way of phrasing it.
Why do you think that your method fits in a flavor sense. It seemed pretty clear that hybrid cards were designed as one or the other not both. Why do you argue that commanders would not associate with things that may be cast by the other colors? If someone mind bends my elesh norn's martial coup would my elesh norn shout "HALT!" and cease casting it? I always felt it was really clear what the flavor of hybrid cards was by the dozens of comments the design team made on the subject. Why are these considerations being ignored?
Why would Elesh Norn care if someone Mind Bends a Martial Coup? She's not the one using it. Because she can't. She's white.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
"Hybrid mana symbols can count as either one of their colors. So, for example, Knell can be played in a Geth deck because it's a black spell, and it has no white mana symbols-only symbols that could be white mana symbols."
Yes, that's a very drawn-out and nonsensical argument.
It's not clunky at all. It's a simple change: from AND to OR.
While restrictions are very important, as you say, not all restrictions are good ones. Can you honestly say, for instance, that the purpose of the format was diluted when Memnarch, Thelon and Bosh became legal generals?
A restriction denying a specific subset of spells the opportunity to be played in EDH the same way they're played in every other format in existence is not a good restriction.
Actually, it makes perfect sense from a flavor standpoint. The flavor of hybrid spells is that they're spells that can be cast by two different types(or rather, colors) of spellcasters. If you've ever played Dungeons and Dragons, you know how there are some spells, like Summon Monster, that can be learned by both Wizards and Clerics, and other spells, like Cure Light Wounds, that can be learned by both Clerics and Druids. That's essentially what hybrid spells are. The current rules regarding hybrid spells are a bit like rolling up a Wizard that only knows spells that no other class can learn. It's not going to seriously detract from the fun, but it is kind of stupid.
If a hybrid spell were meant to only be used by someone with both colors of mana, it would be a normal "gold" multicolor spell. Show me a way to have a spell that is "either/or" between two colors, without using both colors of mana symbols, and that argument might have some weight.
Some individual hybrid spells bleed a bit between what each of its two colors can normally do. But that's a far cry from being the same as a normal gold card, and a good deal less objectionable than what many normal single-colored cards can do. Yes, the spell is two colors, by way of technicality. But at that point you'e favoring the letter of the rules over the spirit of the mana symbol and what it represents, in terms of flavor.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
What he means is that there's no good way of making a card that can be used by Color A OR Color B that doesn't have the mana symbols of Color A AND Color B printed on it in some form.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I mean unmake is both a white ability and a black ability so lets let the black deck run it right?
Hybrid cards were meant to be played by pure color decks too. thats what the designers intended.
Phryxian mana cards were meant to be played by all color decks too. thats what the designers intended.
The arguments read the same to me so therefore if you are changing the format to allow one you should probably change it to allow another. I don't think there is any good argument for why only one change but not the other if "intended design" of hybrids is the reason people are using to justify changing the rules.
phryxian metamorph in every deck. tezzerets gambit in every deck. dismember in every deck. act of agression. moltensteel dragon. rage extractor. ruthless invasion. birthing pod. noxious revival. lashwrithe. hex parasite.
You realy want all this available to any deck?
ok.
I believe the rules should stay the same.
Instead, all I can think about right now are Spellbreak Behemoth and Vexing Shusher. Spellbreaker hates blue. VS hates blue. Spellbreaker needs both colors, but VS can use either-or. With hybrids, I see the latter card as "So intermingled is their hatred of blue that these colors allow the other to coincide within some creature/spell to reach the shared ultimate purpose." They both accomplish "hating blue."
You can play a Cold-Eyed Selkie with just green mana, but just realize you want to use a merfolk....to draw you cards after dealing damage. Keen Sense is a time-twisted version of Curiosity.
It makes no sense to me to ignore the other color. Everything would just be 2/B if the other color didn't matter....but it's not....because the other color obviously matters.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Your interpretation of hybrid is different than Wizards of the Coast's version of hybrid, and different than mine. I defer to the people who created and defined the mechanic for what it represents, which is the portion of both colors that intersects, not a combination of the two. Individual cards may blur that distinction but that's the individual cards' faults, not the mechanic in itself.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)