I think this is a very bad change. It kills the flavor of the format.
If you really want to play a certain card with hybrid mana symbols pick a commander that works with it. Don't change the rules just because you want to play with a certain card that doesn't fit the commander.
But the thing is, a "hybrid" card like Unmake is supposed to work with either black or white. The spell was meant to be cast using either type of mana, not necessarily both like a "Multicolor" card such as Vindicate would. It doesn't kill the flavor at all, if anything it's more faithful to flavor.
I don't want any rule change to enable off-color shenanigans, but I don't see any reason at all why hybrid mana symbols shouldn't be allowed with a commander that can cast it.
MaRo just wants to ***** for the sake of *****ing. No one likes infect.
Hybrid cards? Play a hybrid deck. Phyrexian mana? Use the Propagandas in the colors you DO use.
Changing the rule seems much more complicated for new guys, right? "Guys, you can ONLY use cards in the colors of what's on your general. Anywhere on your general. Anything else is not legit."
MaRo just wants to ***** for the sake of *****ing. No one likes infect.
Hybrid cards? Play a hybrid deck. Phyrexian mana? Use the Propagandas in the colors you DO use.
Changing the rule seems much more complicated for new guys, right? "Guys, you can ONLY use cards in the colors of what's on your general. Anywhere on your general. Anything else is not legit."
It's his baby, its why he's *****ing. [Infect, that is]
I've solved the problem for all of you:
Quote from My Proposed Rules Change »
"Decks can only play cards in which their mana symbol appears including hybrid mana and split cards. Cards with Phyrexian mana may also be played in all decks, due to part of the nature in their casting cost [2 life]."
This opens up things like Debtor's Knell to mono-black, while restricting cards like white Akroma from making it to mono-black reanimator, or insane things to a mono blue Dream Halls.
I also feel that this elegantly addresses the point that MaRo is making without sacrificing the integrity of color identity.
Kyrillos, I completely agree. Instead of "cards must only have the mana symbols in the color identity of the commander", have it be "cards must have AT LEAST ONE mana symbol matching the color identity of the commander". Maybe even make it so they must share a color in the cost. The exact words could be resolved, but this solves the problem without allowing cards into the deck that cannot be cast for its actual casting cost.
Ok, first 2 pages seem filled with EDH 'spikes'. Guys, what about the flavour? My understanding was that EDH/Commander was built around the concept of a general being the focus of your deck, where any mana other than his would be considered sacriligious to him and 100% not allowed. I really like that idea, as it forces us to use less optimal card choices to keep on colour. In fact, I would even expand on this and prevent people from running lands that produce anything but the general's mana colours, which you can somehow do on MTGO commander. Do we really want to open up the format even more so that the decks will become more and more netdecks and goodstuff.dek? It's already pretty crazy that I sit down at a table to typically play against 2 x Azuza and 1 blue general.
I would be against the change, largely for the flavor reasons stated above. If somehow we could create an elegant rule that allowed Unmake and MaRo's hypothetical City of Copper to go in mono-W decks without letting Reaper King go in any deck, then maybe I'd be on board.
As much as I want Beseech the Queen for my mono-red deck, it would just feel strangely unsettling in the same sense that Squee in mono-blue decks would be weird.
I think the best solution to this is:
Cards in a deck must be castable by the colours in the color identity of the commander of the deck.
This would allow for Phybrids, colorless hybrids, on-color hybrids, split cards, and cards that have different colors in their text box (e.g. Mirrorwood Treefolk in a green Treefolk deck), while not allowing mono-black reanimator to run Iona.
This would allow for a small amount of trickery with regards to Dream Halls (e.g. If I was playing a U/R deck with Dream Halls, I could include Research // Development and could wind up playing the Research half of the card), but that seems so inconsequential that I would allow for it.
On the base level, I think Maro has a point. Mirrorweave is the kind of card I wouldn't mind seeing in a Monowhite or MonoBlue deck. Normal Hybrid cards would work easily.
But beyond that, it starts to get tricky.
Initially, I thought split cards would be fine, but there are problems. Normally, Fire//Ice would be fine in a monoblue deck, as they could only cast Ice. But if they imprint it on Isochron scepter, that would allow them to cast Fire, which is not something I want to see.
Monocolor Hybrid is not something I want to see outside of its color. I don't like that color bleed.
Likewise, I don't like the Phyrexian Mana bleed either. I'm sick of seeing Dismember everywhere in standard. I don't want every deck to have access to Birthing Pod or Phyrexian Metamorph.
The idea of Conflux in a monblue deck, or other itterations of that is definitly against what I think the format should do.
While I understand that the Bringers are restricted to 5 color decks, and they shouldn't need to be, or that Noble Heirarch in a U/G deck wouldn't bother me, it just makes things more complicated.
Fundamentally, simplicity is important. The current rule, even with its faults, is simple. I think I would choose the current shortcomings over the shortcomings of any of the alternatives.
Personally I'm split. The game designer in me wants a more elegant rule set, and that means minimizing the number and complexity of rules. If you can remove color identity as a concept and just use "can't make mana of that color" as the restriction, that's fewer rules.
On the other hand, there's very strong flavor associated with the color identity rule, and it comes down to the visceral look and feel of the cards you draw. There's something special about drawing only cards with green borders in your mono-green deck. It would feel weird to draw a card like Spitting Image in a situation like that, even though the rules of magic allow me to play it and the card was designed as a clone that mono-green can play.
I'm very torn, so I voted "don't care". I'd be happy with either solution, to be honest.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Ugh...I just wrote a long post, and somehow clicked something and erased it. I'll summarize:
Deckbuilding restrictions are part of what make the format what it is, and philosophically, we believe more narrow is better than wider open. If they weren't onerus and administratively difficult, I'd probably support even MORE restrictions (like only a deck with Crosis as the Commander could play Crosis' Catacombs, but that drifts us from the point).
I understand that in design, hybrids were made to that either color could use them, but 1) those cards weren't made with the format in mind and 2) we decided that for the format's big picture, letting decks have access to off-colors (like mono black getting Debtor's Knell) didn't fit. Just like any other format, Commander isn't about "make the best possible deck," it's "make the best possible deck under these restrictions."
I was the last holdout on changing color identity from "Just mana cost" to "Anywhere on the card", and got swayed by a few combining factors while I was out at WotC in November:
1. What the community had been saying for a while as far as what it wanted. I'll always point to this should people say "you don't listen to us."
2. Compelling arguments from some WotC folks, led by Aaron Forsythe.
2a. Most compelling in that argument was that if Memnarch and Bosh had been printed in a more modern development cycle (Conflux instead of Mirrodin), they would have had colored mana costs.
3. It wasn't going to wreck the format and could reasonably be supported flavorwise. It's not in 100% alignment with the way I see the flavor, but is an acceptible 80% solution.
Color identity is good the way it is and isn't going to change any time soon. Hybrid cards will only be allowed if ALL the colors match, and completely off-color cards are simply out of the question.
Monocolor Hybrid is not something I want to see outside of its color. I don't like that color bleed.
If it can be cast for 6 colorless, it isn't color bleed.
That's like saying you hate Moonglove Extract because it allows for burn outside of red. Colorless cards exist, it isn't bleed.
Likewise, I don't like the Phyrexian Mana bleed either. I'm sick of seeing Dismember everywhere in standard. I don't want every deck to have access to Birthing Pod or Phyrexian Metamorph.
See above.
While I understand that the Bringers are restricted to 5 color decks, and they shouldn't need to be, or that Noble Heirarch in a U/G deck wouldn't bother me, it just makes things more complicated.
Fundamentally, simplicity is important. The current rule, even with its faults, is simple. I think I would choose the current shortcomings over the shortcomings of any of the alternatives.
Yeah, because removing a line of text sure makes things more complicated :tongue:.
What MaRo proposed and what others have proposed (myself included) is no less simple (or more complicated) than what already exists. It's just as confusing to say, "No, you can't have Noble Hierarch in your deck even though you're commander is Green," as it is to say, "You can run Mirrorweave in your mono-white deck because it is castable with only white mana."
The only thing that makes it 'complicated' is that it is different. But so was the change in color identity that allowed for such commanders as Bosh, Memnarch, Rhys, etc. You don't see people decrying that any more.
It's just as confusing to say, "No, you can't have Noble Hierarch in your deck even though you're commander is Green," as it is to say, "You can run Mirrorweave in your mono-white deck because it is castable with only white mana."
I agree. Which is why the current rule, is the one I support.
Yes, you can cast Dismember for only colorless mana. Yes, nonblack decks play it in other formats. But that doesn't mean that I want it to be legal in commander. Granted, thats what I want. I'm just expressing my opinion.
While the monocolored hybrids can be cast with only colorless and go in any deck, it feels 'weird' in a way that Moonglove extract does not. There's something to be said for the innate feel, even if its not prefectly quantifiable.
Part of MaRo's argument, I think, is based on what hybrid cards were designed to do:
The other big thing this change would solve is my personal pet peeve with the format. Hybrid cards have both mana symbols on them, meaning that you can't play a hybrid card unless you are playing both of its colors. This annoys me, as the entire point of hybrid cards was that they represented an "or" state rather than an "and" state. A mono-white deck in another format can play the card Mirrorweave. Why, then, can't a white commander?
First, I think that he is wrong simply to write that hybrids represent "an 'or' state rather than an 'and' state." Yes, you may cast Unmake with either white or black mana, but the card is still both white and black. Hybrid cards are still multicolor, even if Unmake is different than Vindicate.
Second, I would counter with the not-exactly-equivalent argument that cards like Squadron Hawk, among others, e.g., the Grandeur cards, also don't function as they were designed under the current Commander rules, yet very few us seem worried about the loss of such functionality as an outcome of those rules. Different formats make different cards more or less useful in different decks, and Commander has a special set of rules that distinguishes it from other formats and seems to me worth preserving.
Play to win. If you don't, you're disrespecting everyone you're playing with by wasting their time. The Douchbag check is at the level of deck construction.
Being "or" rather than "and" is the entire point of the mechanic. And I disagree that the flavor of the color restriction should be that "These mana symbols are anathema! Purge their unclean forms from my presence!" I don't want my commander to be mana-racist. I want the situation to be, "These are the only colors of mana that I can manipulate. Use anything that can be cast/manipulated using these colors."
But thank you, Sheldon, for clarifying that there is not actually a flavor reason for this restriction, that it is just restriction for restriction's sake (like the deck size and highlander requirement). And also for clarifying that mechanics that "weren't made with Commander in mind" aren't worth consideration when looking at the format's rules.
There are too many stupid possibilities to get cards into play without paying their mana costs. This change would kill a big part of the flavor because we would see off colors combos (Hermit Druid in mono green ? Black reanimating Iona ? Arcum Dagsson getting Scourglass ?).
while the restrictions keep the format stable i feel like it can also cause a little big of stagnation. Sweet decks are going to be prevented because of this. I have been wanting to build a mangara of corondor deck for a while but it is missing some pieces because of the rules. turn to mist and momentary blink being chief among these. Mangara has the ability to cast these spells but some supreme being up on high decided that if the spell even looks slightly blue he cannot.
It reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy tactics advance. A really good game that was greatly hampered by the inclusion of a "judge" system that prevented you from doing certain things during battle. They would decide that sometimes you couldnt use swords and other days magic was prohibited. It was really poor. Now anyone who has ever played an rpg knows that you dont get your best spells right off the bat. You dont start with a million gold. These restrictions are great because they make you feel like you are earning what you want.
The basics of color identity do this. If i want to kill a creature in green i truly have to earn it. If i want to kill enchantments in black i have to work hard to get around that. The singleton part is pretty solid as well. But preventing me from casting turn to mist in my white deck feels like a judge in final fantasy telling me that the new cutlass i bought will land me in jail.
The biggest issue with allowing hybrid cards is obviously the blatant disregard for color pie, which I've always felt was one of the main points of playing Commander (really wanted to type EDH there). Obviously the Hybrid/Phyrexian cards were designed for their current standard and not for Commander, and the point was to branch some abilities into other colors, but that's not what THIS format is for.
If I want to play a bunch of multicolored fatties on black mana, I'll play a different format.
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I've been in favor of allowing hybrid cards in decks, so I would be fine with the change. But in reality, I don't think a ton of those cards would end up getting played anyway.
Unmake, Mirrorweave, Debtor's Knell are a few that might visit other decks, but for the most part, people aren't going to pay 6 to Beseech the Queen or run Firespout for half the effect.
I don't want to see Debtors' Knell become a staple in just about everything (4/5 Wedges and 5/5 Shards have W or B) and mono-red would run Beseech the Queen, as would any non-black combo deck, and probably mono-green.
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i find it a bit funny to see a lot of rule changes, bannings/restrictions, adaptations, in a format that's relatively still very young, and more so, isn't an "official" format yet. oh well, just my opinion... for me the simpler the better, stick to the commander colors symbol.
Being "or" rather than "and" is the entire point of the mechanic. And I disagree that the flavor of the color restriction should be that "These mana symbols are anathema! Purge their unclean forms from my presence!" I don't want my commander to be mana-racist. I want the situation to be, "These are the only colors of mana that I can manipulate. Use anything that can be cast/manipulated using these colors."
But thank you, Sheldon, for clarifying that there is not actually a flavor reason for this restriction, that it is just restriction for restriction's sake (like the deck size and highlander requirement). And also for clarifying that mechanics that "weren't made with Commander in mind" aren't worth consideration when looking at the format's rules.
This is exactly the kind of snide, smug attitude that makes me question the value of coming here--and actively keeps other RC members away.
The first paragraph looks like good discussion--"Here's why I disagree, and here's what I'd like to see." The second leads me to believe that you don't want that discussion, so any additional argument I might make is a waste of time.
You know, I'd be all for this if they had done a better job with hybrids from the beginning. They are supposed to be castable with either colour because it's where the colours overlap, but the fact is Debtors' Knell is not black, Augury Adept is not white and Grief Tyrant is not red. They're cards with a multicolour effect that can be cast in a monocolour deck and that taints the flavour to a large degree.
Of course, the thought of monoblack players Zombifying Iona really irks me as well.
But the thing is, a "hybrid" card like Unmake is supposed to work with either black or white. The spell was meant to be cast using either type of mana, not necessarily both like a "Multicolor" card such as Vindicate would. It doesn't kill the flavor at all, if anything it's more faithful to flavor.
I don't want any rule change to enable off-color shenanigans, but I don't see any reason at all why hybrid mana symbols shouldn't be allowed with a commander that can cast it.
Agreed 100% with this. The rules should allow for hybrid cards to be played in decks with only one of that colour but nothing more.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
It's not if there isn't enough card selection for the format. This really shouldn't be an issue. I am glad to play the big broken cards the way they are, and by bleeding the colors it just makes the format more broken and spiky. I have seen so much whining about the banlist in the last few weeks, and now about this too. This would just allow for more broken card combinations, which is not needed. Please just leave the pie as is!
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But the thing is, a "hybrid" card like Unmake is supposed to work with either black or white. The spell was meant to be cast using either type of mana, not necessarily both like a "Multicolor" card such as Vindicate would. It doesn't kill the flavor at all, if anything it's more faithful to flavor.
I don't want any rule change to enable off-color shenanigans, but I don't see any reason at all why hybrid mana symbols shouldn't be allowed with a commander that can cast it.
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Hybrid cards? Play a hybrid deck. Phyrexian mana? Use the Propagandas in the colors you DO use.
Changing the rule seems much more complicated for new guys, right? "Guys, you can ONLY use cards in the colors of what's on your general. Anywhere on your general. Anything else is not legit."
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It's his baby, its why he's *****ing. [Infect, that is]
I've solved the problem for all of you:
This opens up things like Debtor's Knell to mono-black, while restricting cards like white Akroma from making it to mono-black reanimator, or insane things to a mono blue Dream Halls.
I also feel that this elegantly addresses the point that MaRo is making without sacrificing the integrity of color identity.
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As much as I want Beseech the Queen for my mono-red deck, it would just feel strangely unsettling in the same sense that Squee in mono-blue decks would be weird.
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Cards in a deck must be castable by the colours in the color identity of the commander of the deck.
This would allow for Phybrids, colorless hybrids, on-color hybrids, split cards, and cards that have different colors in their text box (e.g. Mirrorwood Treefolk in a green Treefolk deck), while not allowing mono-black reanimator to run Iona.
This would allow for a small amount of trickery with regards to Dream Halls (e.g. If I was playing a U/R deck with Dream Halls, I could include Research // Development and could wind up playing the Research half of the card), but that seems so inconsequential that I would allow for it.
On the base level, I think Maro has a point. Mirrorweave is the kind of card I wouldn't mind seeing in a Monowhite or MonoBlue deck. Normal Hybrid cards would work easily.
But beyond that, it starts to get tricky.
Initially, I thought split cards would be fine, but there are problems. Normally, Fire//Ice would be fine in a monoblue deck, as they could only cast Ice. But if they imprint it on Isochron scepter, that would allow them to cast Fire, which is not something I want to see.
Monocolor Hybrid is not something I want to see outside of its color. I don't like that color bleed.
Likewise, I don't like the Phyrexian Mana bleed either. I'm sick of seeing Dismember everywhere in standard. I don't want every deck to have access to Birthing Pod or Phyrexian Metamorph.
The idea of Conflux in a monblue deck, or other itterations of that is definitly against what I think the format should do.
While I understand that the Bringers are restricted to 5 color decks, and they shouldn't need to be, or that Noble Heirarch in a U/G deck wouldn't bother me, it just makes things more complicated.
Fundamentally, simplicity is important. The current rule, even with its faults, is simple. I think I would choose the current shortcomings over the shortcomings of any of the alternatives.
On the other hand, there's very strong flavor associated with the color identity rule, and it comes down to the visceral look and feel of the cards you draw. There's something special about drawing only cards with green borders in your mono-green deck. It would feel weird to draw a card like Spitting Image in a situation like that, even though the rules of magic allow me to play it and the card was designed as a clone that mono-green can play.
I'm very torn, so I voted "don't care". I'd be happy with either solution, to be honest.
Deckbuilding restrictions are part of what make the format what it is, and philosophically, we believe more narrow is better than wider open. If they weren't onerus and administratively difficult, I'd probably support even MORE restrictions (like only a deck with Crosis as the Commander could play Crosis' Catacombs, but that drifts us from the point).
I understand that in design, hybrids were made to that either color could use them, but 1) those cards weren't made with the format in mind and 2) we decided that for the format's big picture, letting decks have access to off-colors (like mono black getting Debtor's Knell) didn't fit. Just like any other format, Commander isn't about "make the best possible deck," it's "make the best possible deck under these restrictions."
I was the last holdout on changing color identity from "Just mana cost" to "Anywhere on the card", and got swayed by a few combining factors while I was out at WotC in November:
1. What the community had been saying for a while as far as what it wanted. I'll always point to this should people say "you don't listen to us."
2. Compelling arguments from some WotC folks, led by Aaron Forsythe.
2a. Most compelling in that argument was that if Memnarch and Bosh had been printed in a more modern development cycle (Conflux instead of Mirrodin), they would have had colored mana costs.
3. It wasn't going to wreck the format and could reasonably be supported flavorwise. It's not in 100% alignment with the way I see the flavor, but is an acceptible 80% solution.
Color identity is good the way it is and isn't going to change any time soon. Hybrid cards will only be allowed if ALL the colors match, and completely off-color cards are simply out of the question.
If it can be cast for 6 colorless, it isn't color bleed.
That's like saying you hate Moonglove Extract because it allows for burn outside of red. Colorless cards exist, it isn't bleed.
See above.
Yeah, because removing a line of text sure makes things more complicated :tongue:.
What MaRo proposed and what others have proposed (myself included) is no less simple (or more complicated) than what already exists. It's just as confusing to say, "No, you can't have Noble Hierarch in your deck even though you're commander is Green," as it is to say, "You can run Mirrorweave in your mono-white deck because it is castable with only white mana."
The only thing that makes it 'complicated' is that it is different. But so was the change in color identity that allowed for such commanders as Bosh, Memnarch, Rhys, etc. You don't see people decrying that any more.
I agree. Which is why the current rule, is the one I support.
Yes, you can cast Dismember for only colorless mana. Yes, nonblack decks play it in other formats. But that doesn't mean that I want it to be legal in commander. Granted, thats what I want. I'm just expressing my opinion.
While the monocolored hybrids can be cast with only colorless and go in any deck, it feels 'weird' in a way that Moonglove extract does not. There's something to be said for the innate feel, even if its not prefectly quantifiable.
It's not like it matters much anyway.
First, I think that he is wrong simply to write that hybrids represent "an 'or' state rather than an 'and' state." Yes, you may cast Unmake with either white or black mana, but the card is still both white and black. Hybrid cards are still multicolor, even if Unmake is different than Vindicate.
Second, I would counter with the not-exactly-equivalent argument that cards like Squadron Hawk, among others, e.g., the Grandeur cards, also don't function as they were designed under the current Commander rules, yet very few us seem worried about the loss of such functionality as an outcome of those rules. Different formats make different cards more or less useful in different decks, and Commander has a special set of rules that distinguishes it from other formats and seems to me worth preserving.
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But thank you, Sheldon, for clarifying that there is not actually a flavor reason for this restriction, that it is just restriction for restriction's sake (like the deck size and highlander requirement). And also for clarifying that mechanics that "weren't made with Commander in mind" aren't worth consideration when looking at the format's rules.
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Perfectly sums up my feelings.
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It reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy tactics advance. A really good game that was greatly hampered by the inclusion of a "judge" system that prevented you from doing certain things during battle. They would decide that sometimes you couldnt use swords and other days magic was prohibited. It was really poor. Now anyone who has ever played an rpg knows that you dont get your best spells right off the bat. You dont start with a million gold. These restrictions are great because they make you feel like you are earning what you want.
The basics of color identity do this. If i want to kill a creature in green i truly have to earn it. If i want to kill enchantments in black i have to work hard to get around that. The singleton part is pretty solid as well. But preventing me from casting turn to mist in my white deck feels like a judge in final fantasy telling me that the new cutlass i bought will land me in jail.
If I want to play a bunch of multicolored fatties on black mana, I'll play a different format.
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the ten dieties will see play
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
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- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
This is exactly the kind of snide, smug attitude that makes me question the value of coming here--and actively keeps other RC members away.
The first paragraph looks like good discussion--"Here's why I disagree, and here's what I'd like to see." The second leads me to believe that you don't want that discussion, so any additional argument I might make is a waste of time.
Of course, the thought of monoblack players Zombifying Iona really irks me as well.
Agreed 100% with this. The rules should allow for hybrid cards to be played in decks with only one of that colour but nothing more.