I remember a pretty divisive argument over Emrakul and whether or not he should be banned, and the community was pretty close to 50/50 on the topic. I even remember the RC saying that they had listened to the community on the issue of Emrakul.
Where are all the people arguing for why Kokusho should stay banned? It seems odd that the RC will listen to 50% of the community about one card but not 100% on another card. Or was the "we've listened to the community" on Emrakul just a line for "we do what we want and pretend it's because you asked for it"? I don't think that's it, but it sure looks like it from this perspective.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I'm not pleased with the unbanning of worldgorger. It's only use is unfun and degenerate, and worst of all, if it doesn't successfully goes off it often ends the game in a draw. There's nothing pleasant about that.
Also, the only reason I care about Kukosho is all the damn whining about it. I'm just sick of hearing about it.
To echo the others, where's Koko's unbanning? He kinda sucks as a 6 mana creature nowadays. I read through the entire 80+ pages of the banlist discussion, and do not remember any talk about WGD. Um, what?
- As people have said, WGD is almost solely used for combo
- there's been like no discussion of WGD that I know of
- Koko sucks as a creature compared to things like Prime Time, Con Sphinx, arguably the rest of the titans, etc
- doesn't seem like the committee is listening.
- Yosei is (theoretically, to me) a much worse offender to fun than Koko. I'd rather be killed quickly in a game, than locked out for ten turns while somebody pokes me to death.
- Um, WHAT, committee?
I'm not pleased with the unbanning of worldgorger. It's only use is unfun and degenerate, and worst of all, if it doesn't successfully goes off it often ends the game in a draw. There's nothing pleasant about that.
I was just thinking about this... what if the player doesn't want to lose a game and gets all but hurt... can't he just not use animate dead to target another creature... isn't it still his choice? What if when he goes into infinite mode and realizes there is no creature in any other graveyards? Isn't it totally possible to pop relic of progenitus at a specific point in time to force a draw even if the controlling player didn't intend to draw the game?
- Yosei is (theoretically, to me) a much worse offender to fun than Koko. I'd rather be killed quickly in a game, than locked out for ten turns while somebody pokes me to death.
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I'm not pleased with the unbanning of worldgorger. It's only use is unfun and degenerate, and worst of all, if it doesn't successfully goes off it often ends the game in a draw. There's nothing pleasant about that.
The RC is (correctly) trying to make the banned list more consistent. Would you rather have a shorter banned list that does not include Worldgorger Dragon, or an extremely lengthy banned list including every card that could possibly generate infinite mana? I'd certainly prefer the former. This unbanning is a step in the right direction and I hope is indicitive of more to come.
In other news, I'm surprised LED didn't come off in the same announcement since they're essentially identical.
The RC is (correctly) trying to make the banned list more consistent. Would you rather have a shorter banned list that does not include Worldgorger Dragon, or an extremely lengthy banned list including every card that could possibly generate infinite mana? I'd certainly prefer the former. This unbanning is a step in the right direction and I hope is indicitive of more to come.
I understand that logic. I'm not upset and I suppose it works. I'd rather not see Worldgorger Dragon anywhere, but whatever,
In other news, I'm surprised LED didn't come off in the same announcement since they're essentially identical.
Can you elaborate on this? LED is fast mana, which the RC has several sources on the banned list. It's not without it's drawbacks, but it is pretty impressively degenerate, plus its a lotus for accelerating commanders into play 3+ earlier then otherwise.
Can you elaborate on this? LED is fast mana, which the RC has several sources on the banned list. It's not without it's drawbacks, but it is pretty impressively degenerate, plus its a lotus for accelerating commanders into play 3+ earlier then otherwise.
Not sure LED should come off, but it'd almost be cool to see how it would be used as a Lotus for Commanders. Which decks would be alright dumping their hand for a faster Commander?
I'm kind of glad Worldgorger is off. Just another infinite combo to look out for. A lot of playgroups keep those under control anyway, choosing not to play them. And it does protect Zirlan decks, so it's not only a combo piece (although yeah, most of the time it is).
There will always be cards that will piss people off when they are played. Obliterate and Worldpurge can be just as irritating as WGD. The problem I see with WGD is that its a field reset on a 7/7 body puts 1v1 matchups on a bit of a clock. But, like was said before, its not an unanswerable card, so why not let it be unbanned?
As for Koko, I would like to see that stay banned. My meta has many recursion decks that can easily abuse Koko's ability and drain everyone from 40 life within a few turns. Some metas are different though and dont have to worry about that (lucky bastards!!!)
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WGD makes infinite mana (combined with any Animate Dead / Dance of the Dead style enchantment) which can be used to fuel infinite comet storm / exsanguinate / whatever
Koko taking "four or five turns" to do the same seems hardly degenerate.
I'm glad the legions of WGD supporters out there have finally gotten their wish after a long struggle to see this card unbanned. Your hard work has paid off, WGD 4 lyfe! Big ups to the RC for listening to the community on this one!
I thought I would have never seen the day that WGD would get unbanned. I had imagined that the card was basically on that list for life since it was used for nothing but going infinite with Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy. What's even more shocking is unbanning this card before Kokusho. Kokusho has been on the ban list for almost 3.5 years now, and the RC didn't even mention Kokusho in their B&R update. Something's amiss...
You have to be a little surprised that Hermit Driud didn't get a mention, yeah? I thought that would be banned for sure.
Since I play Hermit Druid I guess I can say I'm happy I get to keep my deck together. However, as a player in the community I'm pretty shocked. I was positively sure this card was going to get the AXE.
Worldgouger combos are pretty narrow, I don't think I'll be worried about this. It's just one combo out of thousands in EDH.
Why should that matter though? Anyone with half a brain can see that the card isn't even that good in this format. Sure, maybe one person on the RC has some weird logical short circuit, but unless everyone on the RC has veto power (a ridiculously bad structure), I'd assume the other N-1 members would just outvote him.
For the record though, I don't understand the actual voting procedures of the council.
More than anything, this ban announcement is convincing me that having WotC run the ban list would be best for the format.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
You have to be a little surprised that Hermit Driud didn't get a mention, yeah? I thought that would be banned for sure.
The arguments I have seen against banning Hermit Druid have mostly been along the lines of "if people are going to be jerks with a card, they will be jerks, we can't ban them all." So going along those lines it makes perfect sense that Hermit Druid isn't banned. After all, it has limited fair applications and some people enjoy using it for those reasons, just like WGD.
Mind you, going along those lines it doesn't make much sense for many cards to be banned at all, perhaps least of all Kokusho. It also probably helps that Hermit Druid is green.
The arguments I have seen against banning Hermit Druid have mostly been along the lines of "if people are going to be jerks with a card, they will be jerks, we can't ban them all." So going along those lines it makes perfect sense that Hermit Druid isn't banned. After all, it has limited fair applications and some people enjoy using it for those reasons, just like WGD.
Mind you, going along those lines it doesn't make much sense for many cards to be banned at all, perhaps least of all Kokusho. It also probably helps that Hermit Druid is green.
I've seen exactly two fair applications of the dragon, and both of them involve using it to survive mass removal. Otherwise, it's awful.
Why should that matter though? Anyone with half a brain can see that the card isn't even that good in this format. Sure, maybe one person on the RC has some weird logical short circuit, but unless everyone on the RC has veto power (a ridiculously bad structure), I'd assume the other N-1 members would just outvote him.
For the record though, I don't understand the actual voting procedures of the council.
More than anything, this ban announcement is convincing me that having WotC run the ban list would be best for the format.
I am rather curious about this as well. Is papa_funk the sort to be all, "If you unban Kokusho I'll hate you all forever" or some nonsense?
WotC won't take over the format though. I think that is, by and large, correct.
I've seen exactly two fair applications of the dragon, and both of them involve using it to survive mass removal. Otherwise, it's awful.
Yeah, considering how extremely vulnerable you are to just losing the game if people have any removal open... Even though my Kaalia deck doesn't plan on being particularly friendly, not sure he'll be included in the first draft.
You don't have to tell me. I named an entire category of cards that deserve to be banned after the Worldgorger in this article, and held it up as exactly the kind of card that should remain banned in Commander. I'm not arguing that I think WGD should have been unbanned, I'm providing the perspective that seems to support why cards like WGD or Hermit Druid can be unbanned/are not banned.
What do I personally think? Obviously, it doesn't matter what any of us think. Was ANYBODY thinking, "hmm maybe they'll unban WGD" the last few weeks? Was it even on anybody's radar? Did anybody care?'
Kokusho is banned, and seems likely to stay that way if this hilarious change to the ban list should be considered to carry any kind of implications. They've chosen to unban a card that serves as an extremely narrow combo piece instead of a card that can be potentially abusive in environments unprepared for it, despite being explicitly designed with multiplayer in mind. Take that for what you will.
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Where are all the people arguing for why Kokusho should stay banned? It seems odd that the RC will listen to 50% of the community about one card but not 100% on another card. Or was the "we've listened to the community" on Emrakul just a line for "we do what we want and pretend it's because you asked for it"? I don't think that's it, but it sure looks like it from this perspective.
It doesn't but you can tutor for it and win consistently if the deck is built properly. Worst unbanning of all.
Also, the only reason I care about Kukosho is all the damn whining about it. I'm just sick of hearing about it.
To echo the others, where's Koko's unbanning? He kinda sucks as a 6 mana creature nowadays. I read through the entire 80+ pages of the banlist discussion, and do not remember any talk about WGD. Um, what?
- As people have said, WGD is almost solely used for combo
- there's been like no discussion of WGD that I know of
- Koko sucks as a creature compared to things like Prime Time, Con Sphinx, arguably the rest of the titans, etc
- doesn't seem like the committee is listening.
- Yosei is (theoretically, to me) a much worse offender to fun than Koko. I'd rather be killed quickly in a game, than locked out for ten turns while somebody pokes me to death.
- Um, WHAT, committee?
This unbanning is highly confusing.
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I was just thinking about this... what if the player doesn't want to lose a game and gets all but hurt... can't he just not use animate dead to target another creature... isn't it still his choice? What if when he goes into infinite mode and realizes there is no creature in any other graveyards? Isn't it totally possible to pop relic of progenitus at a specific point in time to force a draw even if the controlling player didn't intend to draw the game?
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The RC is (correctly) trying to make the banned list more consistent. Would you rather have a shorter banned list that does not include Worldgorger Dragon, or an extremely lengthy banned list including every card that could possibly generate infinite mana? I'd certainly prefer the former. This unbanning is a step in the right direction and I hope is indicitive of more to come.
In other news, I'm surprised LED didn't come off in the same announcement since they're essentially identical.
I understand that logic. I'm not upset and I suppose it works. I'd rather not see Worldgorger Dragon anywhere, but whatever,
Can you elaborate on this? LED is fast mana, which the RC has several sources on the banned list. It's not without it's drawbacks, but it is pretty impressively degenerate, plus its a lotus for accelerating commanders into play 3+ earlier then otherwise.
Not sure LED should come off, but it'd almost be cool to see how it would be used as a Lotus for Commanders. Which decks would be alright dumping their hand for a faster Commander?
I'm kind of glad Worldgorger is off. Just another infinite combo to look out for. A lot of playgroups keep those under control anyway, choosing not to play them. And it does protect Zirlan decks, so it's not only a combo piece (although yeah, most of the time it is).
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As for Koko, I would like to see that stay banned. My meta has many recursion decks that can easily abuse Koko's ability and drain everyone from 40 life within a few turns. Some metas are different though and dont have to worry about that (lucky bastards!!!)
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WGD makes infinite mana (combined with any Animate Dead / Dance of the Dead style enchantment) which can be used to fuel infinite comet storm / exsanguinate / whatever
Koko taking "four or five turns" to do the same seems hardly degenerate.
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I'm glad the legions of WGD supporters out there have finally gotten their wish after a long struggle to see this card unbanned. Your hard work has paid off, WGD 4 lyfe! Big ups to the RC for listening to the community on this one!
I think 3rd from the bottum is the problem.
Yeah except Rite wins a lot of other games with less broken stuff, so it's not that big of a deal really.
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Just... wow.
I thought I would have never seen the day that WGD would get unbanned. I had imagined that the card was basically on that list for life since it was used for nothing but going infinite with Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy. What's even more shocking is unbanning this card before Kokusho. Kokusho has been on the ban list for almost 3.5 years now, and the RC didn't even mention Kokusho in their B&R update. Something's amiss...
papa_funk is extremely anti-Kokusho.
You have to be a little surprised that Hermit Driud didn't get a mention, yeah? I thought that would be banned for sure.
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Since I play Hermit Druid I guess I can say I'm happy I get to keep my deck together. However, as a player in the community I'm pretty shocked. I was positively sure this card was going to get the AXE.
Worldgouger combos are pretty narrow, I don't think I'll be worried about this. It's just one combo out of thousands in EDH.
Why should that matter though? Anyone with half a brain can see that the card isn't even that good in this format. Sure, maybe one person on the RC has some weird logical short circuit, but unless everyone on the RC has veto power (a ridiculously bad structure), I'd assume the other N-1 members would just outvote him.
For the record though, I don't understand the actual voting procedures of the council.
More than anything, this ban announcement is convincing me that having WotC run the ban list would be best for the format.
The arguments I have seen against banning Hermit Druid have mostly been along the lines of "if people are going to be jerks with a card, they will be jerks, we can't ban them all." So going along those lines it makes perfect sense that Hermit Druid isn't banned. After all, it has limited fair applications and some people enjoy using it for those reasons, just like WGD.
Mind you, going along those lines it doesn't make much sense for many cards to be banned at all, perhaps least of all Kokusho. It also probably helps that Hermit Druid is green.
I've seen exactly two fair applications of the dragon, and both of them involve using it to survive mass removal. Otherwise, it's awful.
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I am rather curious about this as well. Is papa_funk the sort to be all, "If you unban Kokusho I'll hate you all forever" or some nonsense?
WotC won't take over the format though. I think that is, by and large, correct.
Yeah, considering how extremely vulnerable you are to just losing the game if people have any removal open... Even though my Kaalia deck doesn't plan on being particularly friendly, not sure he'll be included in the first draft.
What do I personally think? Obviously, it doesn't matter what any of us think. Was ANYBODY thinking, "hmm maybe they'll unban WGD" the last few weeks? Was it even on anybody's radar? Did anybody care?'
Kokusho is banned, and seems likely to stay that way if this hilarious change to the ban list should be considered to carry any kind of implications. They've chosen to unban a card that serves as an extremely narrow combo piece instead of a card that can be potentially abusive in environments unprepared for it, despite being explicitly designed with multiplayer in mind. Take that for what you will.