I don't agree that "good duel deck" necessarily translates to "good multiplayer deck." My concern about bringing a finely tuned 1v1 deck into a multiplayer game is "reputation." If you bring a Sharuum deck to a table of 3 players who love their big splashy spells and playing 4 hour matches, you're going to be facing a 3v1 situation pretty quickly, even if perhaps you just made a Sphinx tribal deck. You'll be dead before you can prove it. Same goes for generals like Uril, Arcum, Skittles, etc.
Maybe my group here is a bit odd, but the difference between a good multiplayer deck and a good duel deck is HUGE. It's the difference between "if you don't disrupt me, you will die every game within 5 turns" and "man, if anyone shows signs of wanting to win in 5 turns before I can assemble my really janky 12 piece splashy combo, I'm gonna campaign hard to convince everyone to counter and kill all his shiz." Blue is certainly prominent enough that this "campaign to hate the griefy deck" is always a dependable strategy in multiplayer.
For multiplayer, I might even make a case for Linvala, since she shuts down most of the deadliest generals (and the best utility creatures.. and thus, all the abuse/dependability that you can count on in your "Hey, I win now" strategy) so handily. I might, if she didn't cause so much grief and get gang-raped because no one likes their cards to be disabled, and certainly not multiple someones.
Hokori assumes a really bad group of players who don't run a low curve (or a fair amount of tuck, spot removal, and ramp). So, a bad playgroup.
The vast majority of decks I encounter are multicolor, and have answers/removal in all those colors PLUS colorless removal. Iona really isn't all that busted, especially when you can see her coming from a mile away. Mono-colored decks have their own problems enough.
Mageta is similarly unimpressive, or at least would be in my playgroup. There are so many alternate win plans here that don't require creatures that he would just be counter-productive in a white deck that obviously wants to run creatures to get ahead.
Akroma is super slow without access to good ramp, super counterable, and not at all effective when telegraphed.
In all likelihood, 8.5 tails won't be remotely useful until you get to 5 mana, at which point you're probably already dead before you made any impact in a duel. In multiplayer.. who cares? Board wipes rule the day.
COME ON, GUYS!
So whats your vote for then? Instead of saying why a play group is bad or a card is bad.
Hokori assumes a really bad group of players who don't run a low curve (or a fair amount of tuck, spot removal, and ramp). So, a bad playgroup.
Even if a deck isn't just dropping 6-mana fatty after 6-mana fatty, not many EDH decks like playing against Winter Orb. There are good matchups and bad matchups, but the effect was strong enough to compete in even Legacy before being obsoleted by Aether Vial and creature power creep in general. Now granted, spot removal hurts, but isn't that also the case with the Captain Sisay you wanted to activate, or the Gaddock Teeg you were relying on to stop the Armageddon, or the Arcum Dagsson your deck needed to function? Hokori also has an unusual weakness to the likes of Llanowar Elf and Sol Ring, but white has more tools than any other color to deal with both artifacts and creatures of all shapes and sizes.
Because Hokori has such a small following (and even fewer dedicated deckbuilders), I have no idea what a good Hokori deck would look like. The effect is huge, though, because it directly attacks something people are used to taking for granted: their untap step. Maybe the "correct" Hokori deck is aggro, or all-out Stax resource denial, or just a control deck with lots of nonland mana sources to capitalize on Hokori's incremental advantage.
I'm just theorycrafting here, but I'm still convinced Hokori holds a lot of promise. He makes Sensei's Divining Top look like garbage, if nothing else.
I'm totally biased here. It's probably that I've abused him so much in my Sisay deck that most of the folks in my playgroup have adjusted accordingly. Same can be said for Teeg, Linvala, and even Iona. I suppose not every group has a pain in the ass Sisay player whose every creature is format-warping.
And also, I seem to have caused an epidemic of aggro decks that abuse (and reliably tutor out) Gaea's Cradle. It's like every deck that's X/G runs the typical ramp package now. Very very biased.
But I can't help but agree that, generally speaking, Hokori would be a force to be reckoned with and would likely warp other groups himself. I especially love that those blue players whose only answer is "aha! I can steal this" (and there are certainly no shortage of those types) can't really do a darn thing to stop him.
The biggest advantage she has is she gets around one of white's biggest weaknesses, generating card advantage. 8.5 tails gets owned by sweepers. Lin Sivvi doesn't.
Hokori, I'll have to try him out. Though he doesn't seem very multiplayer friendly because of how much he shuts a lot of decks down.
Lin Sivvi is probably the best all-around general. Tutoring is powerful in EDH to begin with, but when it's repetitive and cheats cards directly into play, that is just too powerful not to ignore.
Oh my. Geez, I didn't know everyone had such great thoughts about Lin Sivvi...if people can attest to her greatness in multiplayer, too, I wouldn't might starting that deck. I was slowly building Cho-Manno, but I don't want to buy Academy Rector and Enlightened Tutor. She fits my I-started-in-Masques-block-so-screw-you-guys idea. I have a bunch of rebels, and none of the Cho-Manno stuff would interfere with her gameplan.
I'm gonna change my answer from Cho-Manno to Lin Sivvi. Her art's not great, but the character is...I also read the whole Invasion saga novel series.
Okay, well if we're ignoring the elephant in the room, I'll second Arcum Dagsson. He's more vulnerable to removal than some of the other choices, but he's far more explosive and will consistently lock you down (and therefore win) very early in the game. It's easier to fight through Erayo, even.
I'm also going with Arcum Dagsson on this one, again with the "he tutors!" argument. Consistent, fast, brutal. Even in a mirror match with Clique, he can certainly run his share of counter back-ups, and still explode his opponent's whole friggin' board long before Clique can swing 7 times.
I actually think Erayo is kinda overrated. Erayo preys on decks that mainly run big, overcosted sweepers to answer threats. Instant-speed removal can really screw up Erayo as she attempts to flip. As the flip trigger goes on the stack, Swords/Path Erayo in response, and the Erayo player just blew a bunch of spells for nothing.
Even though Erayo's Essence itself is a pretty powerful lock tool, there are ways to get around it. Boseiju, Who Shelters All is a good example that any deck can take advantage of, and I've done things like play a useless spell and then Krosan Grip Erayo's Essence. Vexing Shusher is also very crushing.
If cards like Thrun, the Last Troll continue to be printed, Erayo will keep getting worse and worse.
Skittles gets my vote as well. With the right infect stuff, he can be sick. Especially with some of the stuff coming out in MBS. Then there's the infect stuff that's next in Action. Oh man, once the whole Scars block is out, I'm definitely making a Skittles deck
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WU Near-Death Experience (Casual multiplayer) B Vintage Illegal Discard (When I want to be a jerk) GW Allies (Casual) URG Defenders (Crappy Standard) RWU Affinity (Modern)
I've got to give this one to Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon.
Then again, I've not personally witnessed Braids, Cabal Minion in action, nor am I aware of a particularly brutal build that abuses her to the max. Is she really all that scary in duels? Scarier than a flying infect jerkwad who can one-shot you with a variety of effects?
So whats your vote for then? Instead of saying why a play group is bad or a card is bad.
But I think I agree with that guy in the 4th post of this thread.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Even if a deck isn't just dropping 6-mana fatty after 6-mana fatty, not many EDH decks like playing against Winter Orb. There are good matchups and bad matchups, but the effect was strong enough to compete in even Legacy before being obsoleted by Aether Vial and creature power creep in general. Now granted, spot removal hurts, but isn't that also the case with the Captain Sisay you wanted to activate, or the Gaddock Teeg you were relying on to stop the Armageddon, or the Arcum Dagsson your deck needed to function? Hokori also has an unusual weakness to the likes of Llanowar Elf and Sol Ring, but white has more tools than any other color to deal with both artifacts and creatures of all shapes and sizes.
Because Hokori has such a small following (and even fewer dedicated deckbuilders), I have no idea what a good Hokori deck would look like. The effect is huge, though, because it directly attacks something people are used to taking for granted: their untap step. Maybe the "correct" Hokori deck is aggro, or all-out Stax resource denial, or just a control deck with lots of nonland mana sources to capitalize on Hokori's incremental advantage.
I'm just theorycrafting here, but I'm still convinced Hokori holds a lot of promise. He makes Sensei's Divining Top look like garbage, if nothing else.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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And also, I seem to have caused an epidemic of aggro decks that abuse (and reliably tutor out) Gaea's Cradle. It's like every deck that's X/G runs the typical ramp package now. Very very biased.
But I can't help but agree that, generally speaking, Hokori would be a force to be reckoned with and would likely warp other groups himself. I especially love that those blue players whose only answer is "aha! I can steal this" (and there are certainly no shortage of those types) can't really do a darn thing to stop him.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
The biggest advantage she has is she gets around one of white's biggest weaknesses, generating card advantage. 8.5 tails gets owned by sweepers. Lin Sivvi doesn't.
Hokori, I'll have to try him out. Though he doesn't seem very multiplayer friendly because of how much he shuts a lot of decks down.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
True story: someone thought the Mangara deck I built on Cockatrice in 5 minutes was such a threat that Mangara got Bant Charmed by turn 3.
Guess they showed you
+1 for lin-sivvi
-1 for akroma... i don't get how she's so great..
anyway here's mine
_______1v1 / Multi
Green: Thrun/Azusa
Blue: Clique/Azami
Red: Kiki Jiki
Black: Volrath/Geth
idk much about black/red tbh
Akroma's just probably the strongest finisher in a control build, dunno. When I play her as general people kinda freak out.
I agree with your list except I think Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is the clear runaway best for black.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
For Shut Down: Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
For fun: Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
Lin Sivvi: 8
Eight and a half Tails: 6
Rest of the field: Less
Moving on to Blue now.
My vote is for Arcum Dagsson.
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
I'm gonna change my answer from Cho-Manno to Lin Sivvi. Her art's not great, but the character is...I also read the whole Invasion saga novel series.
BLUE: Thada Adel, Acquisitor
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Is anything not named Vendilion Clique even a legitimate answer?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
EDH:
W Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
Lover of EDH, hater of whiny EDH players.
<--- My response when I got a NM Xiahou Dun for 35$.
Also for 1v1... how did Isamaru not get on the list for 1v1?
10.) No taxing cards.
If i wanted to pay 1 more on my Fresh Volunteers, then id just have played Pearled Unicorn.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Even though Erayo's Essence itself is a pretty powerful lock tool, there are ways to get around it. Boseiju, Who Shelters All is a good example that any deck can take advantage of, and I've done things like play a useless spell and then Krosan Grip Erayo's Essence. Vexing Shusher is also very crushing.
If cards like Thrun, the Last Troll continue to be printed, Erayo will keep getting worse and worse.
I am voting for Skithiryx.
Also, Post #1 updated with results to date.
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WU Near-Death Experience (Casual multiplayer)
B Vintage Illegal Discard (When I want to be a jerk)
GW Allies (Casual)
URG Defenders (Crappy Standard)
RWU Affinity (Modern)
RGW Mayael the Anima
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
BG Vhati il-Dal
BR Bladewing the Risen
GU Edric, Spymaster of Trest
WU Bruna, Light of Alabaster
RWU Zedruu the Greathearted
Then again, I've not personally witnessed Braids, Cabal Minion in action, nor am I aware of a particularly brutal build that abuses her to the max. Is she really all that scary in duels? Scarier than a flying infect jerkwad who can one-shot you with a variety of effects?
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
EDH:
W Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf