IMO, it warps the format somewhat. There are answers, but when you are having to run subpar stuff like Journey to Nowhere to deal with one card, that is warpy.
It can go into a LOT of decks.
It isn't a fun card. Nothing clever or interesting about it... It's even more one-dimensional than Uril.
That said, it is sorta banworthy, and sorta not.
At the very least, people who want others to have fun should play something else.
Erg, this is starting to get really boring. I take it you're not accepting my offer, then?
I'm not really super interested in continuing a pointless back and forth about emrakul, but i would like to point out that i heavily disagree with you about cards like mangara and hero.
people pack plenty of answers in EDH. some of them sit in your hand, some of them sit on the field. When someone is about to cast a big ol' bomb like terrastodon, it would be fairly impossible to eliminate all the removal on the field as well as in players hands in order to dominate the table with him. If everyone wants a card stopped, most of the time it WILL be stopped. Trying to threaten the entire table with a single card is generally ludicrous. So when that player ramps up for a terrastodon, if he knows some people have answers, if he's smart, he just won't target those people. he'll target someone else's permanents, and he'll attack someone else. If he avoids the people with removal his terrastodon can go on living, and it can do some serious damage to the poor souls without removal while it's alive.
So yes, you can absolutely use cards like mangara in a politically savvy way to ensure that they stay on the field. The player trying to drop emrakul could exhaust his hand and waste valuable time trying to get rid of every piece of removal on the field - only to have it die to a wing shards or an odds/ends or an oring or an ostone or a *** or a doj or WHATEVER on the next turn - or he could tell the person using mangara that he won't attack her so long as she doesn't mess with emmy. Everyone who doesn't have relevant removal takes the pain and both emmy-player and mangara-player profit.
I do this sort of thing all the time. control player agrees not to disrupt aggro player, aggro player agrees not to attack control player. eventually the aggro player runs into removal and the control player has lost nothing, while all his opponents are weaker. It takes surprisingly little to make this sort of thing happen.
so yes, I recommend running cheap game-wreckers like hero and mangara and then I recommend NOT USING THEM. once you start using them all willy-nilly (yes, i use old people language) people WILL start firebombing them off the face of the earth if they ever plan to play anything powerful. but as long as you use tact, you can ensure that not only do they stay on the field, but also that they ensure you're protected from whatever chaos might be going on in the field...and you never even have to use them.
with a decent compliment of nasty control creatures and enough protection for them to ensure they are difficult to remove, anyone trying to make an aggressive move will find it a better idea to coexist with you than to waste ammo and ensure your wrath by trying to take you out too. Actually this strategy has been effective enough in my playgroup that I'm getting kind of sick of it, and I'm going to ignore all of it and try to make a decent mono-red deck with kumano, master yamabushi. yesh.
Look man.. i know you love your cheap control creatures, but you don't link them in every thread. It just feels like you play against people who are pure aggro timmy players, that pack nearly NO answers. Politics will only get so far. If i see you have an icy manipulator card, i will destroy it. You're not the only one with answers, and it seems you're just inexperienced with your playgroup about control / aggro / and emrakul. I mean you talked about terastadon.. he doesn't even trigger till he enters! So he'll have to resolve before you target.. No one im my playgroup would let any of your weenies become active- not everyone is fooled by politics.
And not everyone plays W/B control- you have to remember that too.
And no i'm waiting for 50 instant speed answers to a hard cast emrakul. I'd love this.
I'm not really super interested in continuing a pointless back and forth about emrakul, but i would like to point out that i heavily disagree with you about cards like mangara and hero.
You've avoided him entirely this whole argument, to instead promote low cmc creatures that MIGHT stop emrakul, and brag about your politics. No one in their right mind would cast emrakul with one of those creatures out! They'd destroy them! And you'd have to cast them 2 turns before emmy. Having a low cmc doesn't matter- they're not going to last 7 turns, and you're not going to get them in your opening hand.
Let me guess, your next post you'll ignore this and talk about politics and cheap creatures. You'll also ignore the 50 card challenge.
Can someone who has brought up the point that emmy is boring or unfun to loose to please explain to me how she can be any worse than dying to an infinite combo, token swarm, other big dudes, or really any other way for that matter. A win is a win and a lose is a lose, how is loosing to one strategy somehow worse than another. I simply cant understand the concept.
Because it's a card like Armageddon. If you're not ready for it, you lose, probably in another hour. Token swarms have millions of answers. Big dudes have tons of answers. Infinite combos have a few answers.
Think of it like this. You draw your hand, you start going and you see what you'll be doing in the next couple turns. You just drew a great card that fits with the other ones and you're building up.. Then you're out of the game. You get kicked out. Bye. Now you get to shuffle your deck and watch everyone else play a game of magic for 2 hours.
We hate emrakul because we came to play magic. Cards that "don't let you play" like erayo lock are hated for the same reason. You're not playing.
Are we talking about an early or late Emrakul? This makes no sense.
I think what they are saying is, no one is going to leave a disk exposed for othe rplayers to remove it just to remove Emrakul. And its because of that its going to give the play who's going to end up playing Emrakul one more way to avoid the removal for them. If they can play the disk early then player with emrakul can wait.
I suppose if he's cheated in to play early you MIGHT have a chance. The issue is, you HAVE to be able to deal with him or its curtains. I'm suprised that people seem to think that a creature that warrants removal the turn it comes into or after it comes into play, and not only that, it might require team work in an MP game to do it, doesn't require any looking into from the EDH gods that be.
Then again, i play bribery and lots of wrath effects, and many 187 creatures but others don't and some don't general that allow as many as I can run.
I am in the ban him category. Just tonight we had a game end on turn 8 after he swung twice, he was hasted with greaves when he hit the board.
We scooped shuffled up. Started over, the player that had him took him out. The game last 1hour 20mins and was probably one of the best back and forth fun games I have ever had. A few other eldrazi came out and where handled during the course of the game. A charged up Chandra killed one player and Traximundar swung out the other.
I can't tell you how much better the game was without just him, Personally I hate all annihilator cards, they basically can ruin one persons whole game if they come out early and get even one swing off. But Emmy is the worst cause it is so hard to deal with.
It is game warping when you have to run cards just for him. No other creature really holds that kinda power. I do run bribery just for him, and if I get it early I just swing that player out of the game so Emmy goes away and the rest of us can have a fun game.
There were at least 2 other people in the game including you and you both had 8 turns to dig up some answer for him and neither of you could come up with anything that can answer the most popular bomb creature in the game that you need to go into an EDH game expecting. At that point you combined to have seen at least 30 cards and not one could answer emrakul. At that point you deserve to lose.
You need to have some permanent based answers to threats as well as instant speed answers. Different threats necessitate different answers. I love counter control decks (In my playgroup Im known as the guy that counters everything) but you need to have answers at different speeds to match threats that have protection from different things. Im really curious how the people that complain about emrakul being uncounterable making him a bigger threat than everything else for that amount of mana deal with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Play cards that stop emrakul from ever being an issue and then protect them with all the counters that you can't use on emrakul
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Look man.. i know you love your cheap control creatures, but you don't link them in every thread. It just feels like you play against people who are pure aggro timmy players, that pack nearly NO answers. Politics will only get so far. If i see you have an icy manipulator card, i will destroy it. You're not the only one with answers, and it seems you're just inexperienced with your playgroup about control / aggro / and emrakul. I mean you talked about terastadon.. he doesn't even trigger till he enters! So he'll have to resolve before you target.. No one im my playgroup would let any of your weenies become active- not everyone is fooled by politics.
And not everyone plays W/B control- you have to remember that too.
And no i'm waiting for 50 instant speed answers to a hard cast emrakul. I'd love this.
You've avoided him entirely this whole argument, to instead promote low cmc creatures that MIGHT stop emrakul, and brag about your politics. No one in their right mind would cast emrakul with one of those creatures out! They'd destroy them! And you'd have to cast them 2 turns before emmy. Having a low cmc doesn't matter- they're not going to last 7 turns, and you're not going to get them in your opening hand.
Let me guess, your next post you'll ignore this and talk about politics and cheap creatures. You'll also ignore the 50 card challenge.
ignore the 50 card challenge? I offered my conditions: your demand that i exclude permanent-based removal would be as asinine as suggesting that i couldn't list any cards that exile as responses to ulamog. But if you're willing to allow permanents and you're willing to leave this thread if I can do it (I dunno if i can do it, but i'm willing to bet i can) then by all means, let me know and i'll get to it.
My point about mangara et all is that they can absolutely stay on the field. you just have to be judicious about using them and have adequate protection to ensure their survival (mangara is super easy because she can always go off on someone, even if they haven't dropped their big bomb yet. People usually have something they don't want to lose). also I think it's interesting that someone mentioned that ostone never sticks around for 5 turns...i usually try to leave it on the board as long as possible. The point is, as long as you fade into the background by not using your stuff aggressively and not playing anything too bomby, it's not hard to keep emrakul hate in play.
My other point is that, as long as everyone is packing this sort of thing, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to keep an emrakul on the table. Sure, if you're the only one using cheap permanent-based removal and you don't get lucky, then emrakul could do some damage. but as long as everyone is using a fair number of them, there should be no problem at all.
of course, I can only speak from experience within my own playgroup. Obviously some of them have pretty bad decks, but others have quite good ones. most of them have a fair number of removal spells, but their targeted removal is usually useless against me since I try to drop a protection dude first, and their mass removal usually doesn't get played as long as they have a good board position and I'm not pissing them off (and if it does get played, I or someone else often have a counter handy). In my experience with EDH - and the top 50 list and most of the decklists I've looked at seem to support this - people like to pack in a lot of big, bomby spells to be "relevant late-game" and typically not as many efficient answers as they might run in something for a different format. It's totally possible that people in your playgroup pack nothing but removal and counters so they can successfully keep the board 100% spiffy clean at all times of everything except emrakul. and if so, I do most sincerely apologize for my pathetic ignorance.
And no i'm waiting for 50 instant speed answers to a hard cast emrakul. I'd love this.
1. You can't exclude permanents just because "people will answer them." Yes, some permanents get answered, but not every single one. No one's going to waste removal on Icy Manipulator. If they're smart they're waiting for the big guns.
2. This debate shouldn't even be about instant-speed answers to Emrakul. It should be about all the gazillion answers to your opponent ever having 15 mana to cast him. People who whine and moan about land destruction get exactly what they ask for - Emrakul to the face.
In super-duper-timmy-mickey-mouse-causal Emrakul is broken. At any table with decent players who aren't wearing kid gloves, someone should have either won, struck a blow to players' mana bases, or have dug for an answer by the time someone can cast Emmy.
If I didn't have better things to do with my time, I would compile a list of 50+ instant-speed answers, though I imagine some would be sub-par. Instead, though, I'm going to compile a shorter (but actually useful) list of proactive ways to answer Emrakul that many decks should be running.
- Any creature with deathtouch. Yes, you lose six permanents, but we're at a point in the game where someone has managed to make 15. You ought to be ok. If not, you deserve what's coming to you.
Granted all of this assumes Emrakul was cast, not cheated into play. But if he was cheated, you should be fine to just Wrath or O-Ring since the other player didn't get an extra turn.
Oh, wait, here's my favorite:
- Maybe when someone makes 15that's a sign the game should be over. I know so many EDH players seem to have this weird thing about wanting games to just keep going for ever, but it seems to me that if you couldn't find any of these instant-speed answers and no one has a sorcery-speed one either, then maybe it's time to shuffle up a new game.
As a personal endnote, I don't play Emrakul in any of my decks. Not to avoid being a dbag, and not because I don't own one, but because I feel like the risk of getting hit with bribery combined with the hate he draws when cast makes him a bigger liability than asset.
But even if you disagree, he's miles away from broken, and I think the mere fact that this thread exists is a testament to how far EDH has strayed from being a fun format in many playgroups. The EDH community has become this weird cliquish thing where there are tons of cards that are pseudo-banned by being "frowned upon," and where people complain endlessly about any deck where the sole puspose isn't to play big, dumb, long, lulzy games. Yes, I guess some people consider that fun, but many people like challenging or interesting games and board states. Some people like knowing that they have to answer threats carefully and play smart. I feel like EDH had moved to a place where that kind of player is not really welcome, and this thread is a symptom of that larger problem.
We hate emrakul because we came to play magic. Cards that "don't let you play" like erayo lock are hated for the same reason. You're not playing.
Oh wow i have made a horrible mistake, emmy and erayo must be pokemon cards, not magic cards...wait i just checked the backs and they in fact are magic cards!!!!!! Idk bout you but when i come to play magic i come to play all of magic, i dont pick and choose which cards i just dont wana play against. Lock is a strategy in magic, ramp into emmy is a strategy in magic, combo is a strategy in magic. If you ignore one than can you really say you are playing magic?
There were at least 2 other people in the game including you and you both had 8 turns to dig up some answer for him and neither of you could come up with anything that can answer the most popular bomb creature in the game that you need to go into an EDH game expecting. At that point you combined to have seen at least 30 cards and not one could answer emrakul. At that point you deserve to lose.
He came out with haste and wiped one player from the board. No one deserves to lose if they don't happen to have untapped mana + plus a card that can effect emmy at instant speed.
You need to have some permanent based answers to threats as well as instant speed answers.
Why? Other then emmy why would this be needed. I had a maze of ith out, not that it helped with annihilator 6. You can say you should would and could have X to deal with it. But if you have to make your whole deck around being able to deal with emmy you have already lost this argument. Even if half the time you could deal with him the other half of the time is still a waste of the time spent shuffling and starting up a game.
But even if you disagree, he's miles away from broken, and I think the mere fact that this thread exists is a testament to how far EDH has strayed from being a fun format in many playgroups.
Really cause it seems to me that the fact this thread exists shows more then any other card people feel this one is broken and it ruins the fun of EDH. So they are trying to put it back on the path to being fun by making house rules banning him. I know my group is seriously talking about it.
As to you saying bribery is an answer to emmy you are wrong. Sure the person with the Emmy may not win, but the game is still shortened and ruined cause of emmy I know I only run bribery because of emmy. But I just use the persons emmy against them and no one else.
The existence of this thread is to enable discussion of Emrakul, not to prove that its instantly guilty. It's like a court case in that respect - the precedent is to assume innocence until its proven broken.
In any case, Emrakul serves a useful role in the ecology of Magic and EDH. In any game which is balanced, a point needs to be reached where playing defensively is trumped by playing offensively. Emrakul is from a set that was dubbed "battlecruiser Magic" in design, based on the designer's experiences playing starcraft. In Starcraft, battlecruisers are expensive but powerful units with the ability to destroy base defenses and destroy an opponent's base. There aren't a huge number of efficient responses to a battlecruiser, but in general they only enter play late in the game, so you can either harass resources or just attack them before they get to battlecruisers. Some builds could conceivably look to racing up the tech tree to get to battlecruisers early, but if you can blunt the initial assault your opponent is deprived of a lot of resources. No one calls to ban battlecruisers.
The existence of this thread is to enable discussion of Emrakul, not to prove that its instantly guilty. It's like a court case in that respect - the precedent is to assume innocence until its proven broken.
In any case, Emrakul serves a useful role in the ecology of Magic and EDH. In any game which is balanced, a point needs to be reached where playing defensively is trumped by playing offensively. Emrakul is from a set that was dubbed "battlecruiser Magic" in design, based on the designer's experiences playing starcraft. In Starcraft, battlecruisers are expensive but powerful units with the ability to destroy base defenses and destroy an opponent's base. There aren't a huge number of efficient responses to a battlecruiser, but in general they only enter play late in the game, so you can either harass resources or just attack them before they get to battlecruisers. Some builds could conceivably look to racing up the tech tree to get to battlecruisers early, but if you can blunt the initial assault your opponent is deprived of a lot of resources. No one calls to ban battlecruisers.
Except, you spent so much time going devourers to counter BC's that the other terran just stomped you with heavy metal. My issue with him is that the answers tend to be too narrow and color specific to be useful to everyone.
Except, you spent so much time going defilers to counter BC's that the other terran just stomped you with heavy metal. My issue with him is that the answers tend to be too narrow and color specific to be useful to everyone.
defilers? Still playing sc 1? then what's all this heavy metal? I'm so confused...
EDIT: oops, misread that last bit.
anyway, the majority of answers tend towards blue and white i suppose, although black is ok too. red and green don't have a lot, but then those colors tend to be more aggro, so of course they aren't going to have control elements like white and blue. If you're playing in those colors, your best bet is to try to kill them ASAP before they can get the 15 mana to drop emmy. although ofc there are a decent number of colorless hosers for emmy too.
1. "Emrakul isn't even that good unless you ramp or cheap him into play".
Ok. But what about when he's cheated into play in the early-middle stages of the game? Losing 6 permanents is essentially game over; plus you can pick the player you want to eliminate (leave the green/red players alive since they have almost no answers at all).
2. "The time walk is good, no one denies that. But if he's cheated into play, then everyone has a turn (1 turn) to Wrath".
Your playgroup must be very boring. If everyone constantly has a board sweeper in hand, then creatures are worthless. On a related note, why not unban Rofellos as a general? He almost always sits there for a turn, giving people plenty of time to kill him. Sure he comes down sooner, but he's also way easier to kill.
3. "There's no difference between losing to a combo and losing to Emrakul".
Not true. You can disrupt a combo. Many combos are hard to assemble (requiring 3+ cards in a singleton format). Combos require more than one card. Combos have the potential (I know not all of them are) to be more interactive than simply turning a creature sideways. I can go on if people would like more reasons.
4. "There are TONS of answers to Emrakul, even if he's hardcasted".
True. There are tons of playable answers. Many of them will be used or destroyed by that point. When have you ever seen Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone sit around for 5 turns? Many instant speed answers are very limited and specific (Wing Shards and Diabolic Edict will often miss). This is all assuming that you're playing the right color(s) to deal with Emrakul.
I'd also like to point out that of all the removal for Emrakul, only a couple (mostly unplayable) actually get rid of him for good. Congrats! You happened to have that Wrath...he'll be back in a couple of turns...at most.
As another side note, the fact that so many people are against Emrakul...the fact that this is a roughly 50/50 debate means that there's something up with this card. I'm not saying that it should be banned because 50% of EDH players don't like it. But the fact that 50% of EDH players don't like it means there's probably something wrong with it.
This is a thoughtful post. I disagree with some of your assertions, but they are presented very well.
1. Cheating Emrakul into play is powerful, certainly. Some decks (with Oath of Druids, for instance) run Emrakul, Tidespout Tyrant, and similar cards with the intention of doing just that. But again, like I have stated in several other posts in similar threads, it's the engine that's doing the powerful things. Legacy Reanimator says "Dark Ritual, Entomb for Iona, Shield of Emeria, Exhume" and you lose the game -- Iona isn't the problem here. Similarly, if you Oath into Emmy on turn 3, Emmy isn't the problem; he's just the wincon of choice. Sundering Titan or Terrastadon would've been just as bad (as in, they also cause you to lose the game).
2. You agree that Rofellos is a problem: Rofellos is one of the engines I talked about in point #1, not a bomb in and of himself. To clarify: Rofellos won't win the game by himself, but he is cheap to cast and enables you to do stupid stuff, much like Oath of Druids, Necropotence, or Sol Ring. Emmy is an entirely different story: he is the epitome of a late-game card, and all you need to do is cast him and turn him sideways to win. The only thing Emmy and Rofellos have in common is that they are both creatures and they are both good cards -- hardly grounds for the comparison you drew. (Though I will admit, a hardcasted Emrakul stands a decent -- but NOT definite -- chance of ending the game. I don't think anyone is arguing this point, because the same can be said of so many other cards.)
3. I guess this is just personal opinion. To me, I don't see the difference between my opponent tapping for 15 mana and casting Emrakul or if tapping for 15 mana and casting Survival of the Fittest. The result is the same: I lose if I don't have an answer, or I lose because I didn't answer it preemptively. Again, Emmy isn't the most stereotypically "fun" thing to lose to, but then again, most good cards aren't.
4. If every one has exhausted their resources, then yes, Emrakul or any other bomby wincon will typically do the job. But as for the color issue, if mono-red and mono-green can deal with or outrace Emmy reliably (firsthand experience here), the color pie has no play. Does coping with a metagame full of Emrakul require a change in strategy? Yes. Does it even require some nontraditional card choices? Sometimes. But does it require playing bad cards? No. This is the real measure of whether something needs to be banned based on power level.
I will restate the fact that you do make a good argument, though. I tip my hat to you, sir, and thanks for staying levelheaded in the midst of an apparently fevered debate!
"As another side note, the fact that so many people are against Emrakul...the fact that this is a roughly 50/50 debate means that there's something up with this card. I'm not saying that it should be banned because 50% of EDH players don't like it. But the fact that 50% of EDH players don't like it means there's probably something wrong with it."
The fact that so many football fans are against the Raiders means that there's something up with the team. I'm not saying that they should be disqualified because 50% of football fans don't like them. But the fact that 50% of football fans don't like them means there's probably something wrong with them. (Now I'm just being argumentative... it's all in good fun, I promise! ;))
Quote from bitterroot »
stuff
You pretty much said what I could not articulate. Awesome.
Unfortunately, it would seem this topic is going to rage on no matter what anyone says. Seeing as how getting riled up over this isn't exactly conducive to my walk with Christ, I think I've had my fill of this thread. I guess I can't exactly do anything about the outcome, anyway; the EDH Rules Comittee will make their decisions the same way they always have, for better or for worse.
Oh wow i have made a horrible mistake, emmy and erayo must be pokemon cards, not magic cards...wait i just checked the backs and they in fact are magic cards!!!!!! Idk bout you but when i come to play magic i come to play all of magic, i dont pick and choose which cards i just dont wana play against. Lock is a strategy in magic, ramp into emmy is a strategy in magic, combo is a strategy in magic. If you ignore one than can you really say you are playing magic?
Yes they are strategies in magic- and what does the strategy do? keep the other players from not casting a single spell. That's what they're designed to do. You asked why they're hated and i gave you the reason- everyone else can't play, which is what they sat down to do.
You can't exclude permanents just because "people will answer them." Yes, some permanents get answered, but not every single one. No one's going to waste removal on Icy Manipulator. If they're smart they're waiting for the big guns.
Any permanent that can stop an emmy in his tracks will be answered before he is cast. Icy manipulator could cost you the game if you didn't make someone sac 6. Why would it be a stupid play to destroy it?
I don't have time to retort everyone's reasons, someone else will pick up where i left off.
While it's true that the person playing Emrakul will clear the board of things that can destroy it (if possible) before playing it, that doesn't mean those are bad answers. If I was playing Emmy, I would destroy the Bone Crank - but doing so may cost me time, not allowing me to cast Emmy until a turn later. But, in the intervening turns, someone cast Mangara! Darn, so now I destroy her. But then someone casts Hero! Okay, you see the point. Permanent-based answers are still good, because they can very well hold Emmy back. Maybe Hero never actually targets him, but an Emmy stuck in hand because Hero is on the board is fine, too.
So, I couldn't find 50. I only looked for about 20 minutes, but here's a decent starting list. Note that some spells don't deal with him forever - some just buy you a turn. But since there are MANY more sorcery-speed answers than instant-speed ones, that should be fine, right? Buying a turn in order for someone to O-ring, DoJ, Bone Shredder, or whatever is also good. Also, note that some answers do require you to suffer one swing, maybe lose some permanents - but at least it only happens once. For 15 of my opponent's mana, I'll take it.
Mindbreak Trap
Time Stop (obviously the best)
Diabolic Edict
Dispense Justice
Odds//Ends (Ends)
Hit//Run (Hit) (ouch!)
Wing Shards
Ertai's Meddling (will KILL the emmy player. With 7 counters on him exiled, I guarantee every player will gang up and kill him before it happens).
Gather Specimens
Rout (sweet card)
Retaliate (you gotta get hit once, but at least he's out)
Puppet's Verdict (maybe!)
Tsabo's Decree
Breaking Wave
Draining Whelk (doesn't counter him - but you get a 16/16 to block with)
Urborg Justice (after the sac'ed creatures, you can play this and not take the damage, at least)
Brawl (hey everyone! Let's team up to kill emrakul!)
Reins of Power
Aether Shockwave (lots of tap stuff - buys you time, and no sac'ed permanents!)
Cryptic Command
Ensnare
Naya Charm
Thoughtweft Gambit
Turnabout
Moment of Silence
Orim's Chant
Sudden Spoiling (ha!)
Master Warcraft
So there you go. He's a beast, but not unanswerable.
While it's true that the person playing Emrakul will clear the board of things that can destroy it (if possible) before playing it, that doesn't mean those are bad answers. If I was playing Emmy, I would destroy the Bone Crank - but doing so may cost me time, not allowing me to cast Emmy until a turn later. But, in the intervening turns, someone cast Mangara! Darn, so now I destroy her. But then someone casts Hero! Okay, you see the point. Permanent-based answers are still good, because they can very well hold Emmy back. Maybe Hero never actually targets him, but an Emmy stuck in hand because Hero is on the board is fine, too.
So, I couldn't find 50. I only looked for about 20 minutes, but here's a decent starting list. Note that some spells don't deal with him forever - some just buy you a turn. But since there are MANY more sorcery-speed answers than instant-speed ones, that should be fine, right? Buying a turn in order for someone to O-ring, DoJ, Bone Shredder, or whatever is also good. Also, note that some answers do require you to suffer one swing, maybe lose some permanents - but at least it only happens once. For 15 of my opponent's mana, I'll take it.
Mindbreak Trap
Time Stop (obviously the best)
Diabolic Edict
Dispense Justice
Odds//Ends (Ends)
Hit//Run (Hit) (ouch!)
Wing Shards
Ertai's Meddling (will KILL the emmy player. With 7 counters on him exiled, I guarantee every player will gang up and kill him before it happens).
Gather Specimens
Rout (sweet card)
Retaliate (you gotta get hit once, but at least he's out)
Puppet's Verdict (maybe!)
Tsabo's Decree
Breaking Wave
Draining Whelk (doesn't counter him - but you get a 16/16 to block with)
Urborg Justice (after the sac'ed creatures, you can play this and not take the damage, at least)
Brawl (hey everyone! Let's team up to kill emrakul!)
Reins of Power
Aether Shockwave (lots of tap stuff - buys you time, and no sac'ed permanents!)
Cryptic Command
Ensnare
Naya Charm
Thoughtweft Gambit
Turnabout
Moment of Silence
Orim's Chant
Sudden Spoiling (ha!)
Master Warcraft
So there you go. He's a beast, but not unanswerable.
While it's true that the person playing Emrakul will clear the board of things that can destroy it (if possible) before playing it, that doesn't mean those are bad answers. If I was playing Emmy, I would destroy the Bone Crank - but doing so may cost me time, not allowing me to cast Emmy until a turn later. But, in the intervening turns, someone cast Mangara! Darn, so now I destroy her. But then someone casts Hero! Okay, you see the point. Permanent-based answers are still good, because they can very well hold Emmy back. Maybe Hero never actually targets him, but an Emmy stuck in hand because Hero is on the board is fine, too.
So, I couldn't find 50. I only looked for about 20 minutes, but here's a decent starting list. Note that some spells don't deal with him forever - some just buy you a turn. But since there are MANY more sorcery-speed answers than instant-speed ones, that should be fine, right? Buying a turn in order for someone to O-ring, DoJ, Bone Shredder, or whatever is also good. Also, note that some answers do require you to suffer one swing, maybe lose some permanents - but at least it only happens once. For 15 of my opponent's mana, I'll take it.
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Mindbreak Trap
Time Stop (obviously the best)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="black"]Diabolic Edict[/COLOR]
Dispense Justice
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Odds//Ends[/COLOR] (Ends)
[COLOR="Black"]Hit//Run[/COLOR] (Hit) (ouch!)
[COLOR="White"]Wing Shards[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Ertai's Meddling (will KILL the emmy player. With 7 counters on him exiled, I guarantee every player will gang up and kill him before it happens).
Gather Specimens[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]Rout (sweet card)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]Retaliate (you gotta get hit once, but at least he's out)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Puppet's Verdict (maybe!)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="black"]Tsabo's Decree[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Breaking Wave
Draining Whelk (doesn't counter him - but you get a 16/16 to block with)[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR="black"]Urborg Justice[/COLOR] (after the sac'ed creatures, you can play this and not take the damage, at least)
[COLOR="red"]Brawl (hey everyone! Let's team up to kill emrakul!)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Reins of Power[/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]Aether Shockwave (lots of tap stuff - buys you time, and no sac'ed permanents!)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Cryptic Command
Ensnare[/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]Naya Charm[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Thoughtweft Gambit
Turnabout[/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]Moment of Silence
Orim's Chant[/COLOR]
Sudden Spoiling (ha!)
[COLOR="White"]Master Warcraft[/COLOR]
So there you go. He's a beast, but not unanswerable.
As you can see, most the the answers you gave are in blue. We KNOW that blue has answers to this card. We KNOW Time Stop is a good card in EDH, not just for emrakul but in general. How many green or red cards did you find. I am not talking about the situation ones, like brawl, which need the board to be in a specific state, but actual answers. In green? Many of the "answers" are so situational, you would be lucky to get emmy with it. Much of the stuff also still allows emmy to use the annihilator ability. Also, many would not normally be run in a deck. Sure, your opponent tapping out for a 15/15 evasive shroudish guy who forces you to sac permanents isn't too bad. But the time walk, ensuring that even if you did get rid of emmy your opponent would still have his turn, is the thing that puts the card over the top.
As you can see, most the the answers you gave are in blue. We KNOW that blue has answers to this card. We KNOW Time Stop is a good card in EDH, not just for emrakul but in general. How many green or red cards did you find. I am not talking about the situation ones, like brawl, which need the board to be in a specific state, but actual answers. In green? Many of the "answers" are so situational, you would be lucky to get emmy with it. Much of the stuff also still allows emmy to use the annihilator ability. Also, many would not normally be run in a deck. Sure, your opponent tapping out for a 15/15 evasive shroudish guy who forces you to sac permanents isn't too bad. But the time walk, ensuring that even if you did get rid of emmy your opponent would still have his turn, is the thing that puts the card over the top.
considering the insane restrictions on the list, he did pretty well. oh, and odds/ends work, which i only bring up because it kicks ass, restrictive colors notwithstanding. oh, also mirrorweave works.
admittedly most of those are pretty subpar and only a temporary solution at best. and of course most of them are white and blue, they're the colors with answers. but i think it's funny that you bring up green - let's say, for sake of theory, that emrakul had no protection whatsoever. How many instant-speed answers would green have then? they'd have, um, plummet. and gloomwidow's feast. AWESOME.
green just isn't a color with creature removal, you can't expect it to have many to emrakul, or anything for that matter. but green does have a lot of artifact and land removal which it can use to slow down emmy's mana base, while beating the crap out of him. green doesn't have answers to everything, but as consolation they have efficient creatures that can kill people before the nasty stuff comes out.
Look man.. i know you love your cheap control creatures, but you don't link them in every thread. It just feels like you play against people who are pure aggro timmy players, that pack nearly NO answers. Politics will only get so far. If i see you have an icy manipulator card, i will destroy it. You're not the only one with answers, and it seems you're just inexperienced with your playgroup about control / aggro / and emrakul. I mean you talked about terastadon.. he doesn't even trigger till he enters! So he'll have to resolve before you target.. No one im my playgroup would let any of your weenies become active- not everyone is fooled by politics.
I am not really a fan of darcangel's ideas of cheap control creatures but he/she has a point here. It can be difficult to see but the average converted mana cost of most EDH decks really hover around the 3-5 casting cost which possibly implies that cheap control creatures are being played though probably not as much as darcangel would like it to be.
You've avoided him entirely this whole argument, to instead promote low cmc creatures that MIGHT stop emrakul, and brag about your politics. No one in their right mind would cast emrakul with one of those creatures out! They'd destroy them! And you'd have to cast them 2 turns before emmy. Having a low cmc doesn't matter- they're not going to last 7 turns, and you're not going to get them in your opening hand.
I believe that you may be underestimating politics and social dynamics here. When I see Emrakul being played early on or even being cheated into play, the caster will generally be converged upon -- very much like the Archenemy -- and he/she will promptly be slaughtered. The hate will proceed even onto game 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,... you get the idea.
We hate emrakul because we came to play magic. Cards that "don't let you play" like erayo lock are hated for the same reason. You're not playing.
I am not a fan for this argument. Comparing Erayo lock and prison strategy with Emrakul is like comparing apple and oranges. Locks and prison strategies generally come down by turn 1-3 while Emrakul -- even with the best of ramps and cheats -- will probably come down on turn 4-6.
Yeah, plenty of the cards I named were suboptimal. But not all! In fact, many are all-around great cards. Brawl, in particular, is really cool in many games. And the point's already been made, but green barely has a half-dozen answers total for Vizzerdrix, so it's not really fair to say that it doesn't have enough answers for Emrakul. Remember that the restriction on this list was that it had to be instant-speed. If you take away that restriction, there are a TON of answers to it, many of which are artifacts that any color can play. Also note: green might have the worst removal, but it also has the best acceleration - so it's the best color at just playing it's own Emrakul!
And yeah, there were a decent number of cards on that list that would answer Emrakul, but only after one swing, meaning one instance of Annihilator 6 happening (usually beating the damage, though). But you know what? Oh well. That's what you get for 15 mana - and if you didn't know you'd at least get a little bang for your buck, he'd be awful.
You know what I really hope Emrakul does for the format? I hope he teaches everyone to be more aggressive. Lots of games I see where players stockpile huge armies, never attacking because they don't want to be the jerk that knocks someone out of the game, or they fear retaliation and don't want to make enemies. Then someone plays Emrakul on turn 14 and suddenly that player's the jerk. You know what? Kill them before they get there. That's green and red's answer. Blow up their lands and artifacts, don't let anyone untap with more than 12 mana, and kill them with power.
As you can see, most the the answers you gave are in blue. We KNOW that blue has answers to this card. We KNOW Time Stop is a good card in EDH, not just for emrakul but in general. How many green or red cards did you find. I am not talking about the situation ones, like brawl, which need the board to be in a specific state, but actual answers. In green? Many of the "answers" are so situational, you would be lucky to get emmy with it. Much of the stuff also still allows emmy to use the annihilator ability. Also, many would not normally be run in a deck. Sure, your opponent tapping out for a 15/15 evasive shroudish guy who forces you to sac permanents isn't too bad. But the time walk, ensuring that even if you did get rid of emmy your opponent would still have his turn, is the thing that puts the card over the top.
I am not a fan for this argument. Comparing Erayo lock and prison strategy with Emrakul is like comparing apple and oranges. Locks and prison strategies generally come down by turn 1-3 while Emrakul -- even with the best of ramps and cheats -- will probably come down on turn 4-6.
I wasn't comparing the two, someone else was asking why losing to emrakul or braids or smokestack or emrakul is "more annoying/stressful" than losing to mass tokens or combo.
They fall into the same category of "you're not playing anymore" style of play. Many times if someone HAS a wrath, some unlucky fellow is down to 2 lands, and then wrath goes off, and the game continues as normal. Except he's hobbled.
But you're right, that and brittle effigy, nevin's disk, etc are green's best answers to it, which hardly are (tajuru is really narrow.. but i guess if you hate emmy..) if they emrakul player has any answers, or if you simply don't draw in it- you won't have a lot of answers. Your best bet is to either kill him before he can cast, or win through lockdown effects.
It can go into a LOT of decks.
It isn't a fun card. Nothing clever or interesting about it... It's even more one-dimensional than Uril.
That said, it is sorta banworthy, and sorta not.
At the very least, people who want others to have fun should play something else.
Look man.. i know you love your cheap control creatures, but you don't link them in every thread. It just feels like you play against people who are pure aggro timmy players, that pack nearly NO answers. Politics will only get so far. If i see you have an icy manipulator card, i will destroy it. You're not the only one with answers, and it seems you're just inexperienced with your playgroup about control / aggro / and emrakul. I mean you talked about terastadon.. he doesn't even trigger till he enters! So he'll have to resolve before you target.. No one im my playgroup would let any of your weenies become active- not everyone is fooled by politics.
And not everyone plays W/B control- you have to remember that too.
And no i'm waiting for 50 instant speed answers to a hard cast emrakul. I'd love this.
You've avoided him entirely this whole argument, to instead promote low cmc creatures that MIGHT stop emrakul, and brag about your politics. No one in their right mind would cast emrakul with one of those creatures out! They'd destroy them! And you'd have to cast them 2 turns before emmy. Having a low cmc doesn't matter- they're not going to last 7 turns, and you're not going to get them in your opening hand.
Let me guess, your next post you'll ignore this and talk about politics and cheap creatures. You'll also ignore the 50 card challenge.
Because it's a card like Armageddon. If you're not ready for it, you lose, probably in another hour. Token swarms have millions of answers. Big dudes have tons of answers. Infinite combos have a few answers.
Think of it like this. You draw your hand, you start going and you see what you'll be doing in the next couple turns. You just drew a great card that fits with the other ones and you're building up.. Then you're out of the game. You get kicked out. Bye. Now you get to shuffle your deck and watch everyone else play a game of magic for 2 hours.
We hate emrakul because we came to play magic. Cards that "don't let you play" like erayo lock are hated for the same reason. You're not playing.
I think what they are saying is, no one is going to leave a disk exposed for othe rplayers to remove it just to remove Emrakul. And its because of that its going to give the play who's going to end up playing Emrakul one more way to avoid the removal for them. If they can play the disk early then player with emrakul can wait.
I suppose if he's cheated in to play early you MIGHT have a chance. The issue is, you HAVE to be able to deal with him or its curtains. I'm suprised that people seem to think that a creature that warrants removal the turn it comes into or after it comes into play, and not only that, it might require team work in an MP game to do it, doesn't require any looking into from the EDH gods that be.
Then again, i play bribery and lots of wrath effects, and many 187 creatures but others don't and some don't general that allow as many as I can run.
There were at least 2 other people in the game including you and you both had 8 turns to dig up some answer for him and neither of you could come up with anything that can answer the most popular bomb creature in the game that you need to go into an EDH game expecting. At that point you combined to have seen at least 30 cards and not one could answer emrakul. At that point you deserve to lose.
You need to have some permanent based answers to threats as well as instant speed answers. Different threats necessitate different answers. I love counter control decks (In my playgroup Im known as the guy that counters everything) but you need to have answers at different speeds to match threats that have protection from different things. Im really curious how the people that complain about emrakul being uncounterable making him a bigger threat than everything else for that amount of mana deal with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Play cards that stop emrakul from ever being an issue and then protect them with all the counters that you can't use on emrakul
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
ignore the 50 card challenge? I offered my conditions: your demand that i exclude permanent-based removal would be as asinine as suggesting that i couldn't list any cards that exile as responses to ulamog. But if you're willing to allow permanents and you're willing to leave this thread if I can do it (I dunno if i can do it, but i'm willing to bet i can) then by all means, let me know and i'll get to it.
My point about mangara et all is that they can absolutely stay on the field. you just have to be judicious about using them and have adequate protection to ensure their survival (mangara is super easy because she can always go off on someone, even if they haven't dropped their big bomb yet. People usually have something they don't want to lose). also I think it's interesting that someone mentioned that ostone never sticks around for 5 turns...i usually try to leave it on the board as long as possible. The point is, as long as you fade into the background by not using your stuff aggressively and not playing anything too bomby, it's not hard to keep emrakul hate in play.
My other point is that, as long as everyone is packing this sort of thing, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to keep an emrakul on the table. Sure, if you're the only one using cheap permanent-based removal and you don't get lucky, then emrakul could do some damage. but as long as everyone is using a fair number of them, there should be no problem at all.
of course, I can only speak from experience within my own playgroup. Obviously some of them have pretty bad decks, but others have quite good ones. most of them have a fair number of removal spells, but their targeted removal is usually useless against me since I try to drop a protection dude first, and their mass removal usually doesn't get played as long as they have a good board position and I'm not pissing them off (and if it does get played, I or someone else often have a counter handy). In my experience with EDH - and the top 50 list and most of the decklists I've looked at seem to support this - people like to pack in a lot of big, bomby spells to be "relevant late-game" and typically not as many efficient answers as they might run in something for a different format. It's totally possible that people in your playgroup pack nothing but removal and counters so they can successfully keep the board 100% spiffy clean at all times of everything except emrakul. and if so, I do most sincerely apologize for my pathetic ignorance.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
1. You can't exclude permanents just because "people will answer them." Yes, some permanents get answered, but not every single one. No one's going to waste removal on Icy Manipulator. If they're smart they're waiting for the big guns.
2. This debate shouldn't even be about instant-speed answers to Emrakul. It should be about all the gazillion answers to your opponent ever having 15 mana to cast him. People who whine and moan about land destruction get exactly what they ask for - Emrakul to the face.
In super-duper-timmy-mickey-mouse-causal Emrakul is broken. At any table with decent players who aren't wearing kid gloves, someone should have either won, struck a blow to players' mana bases, or have dug for an answer by the time someone can cast Emmy.
If I didn't have better things to do with my time, I would compile a list of 50+ instant-speed answers, though I imagine some would be sub-par. Instead, though, I'm going to compile a shorter (but actually useful) list of proactive ways to answer Emrakul that many decks should be running.
- Land destruction and Winter Orb effects.
- Bribery
- Jester's Cap and friends
- Any of the thousands of permanents that can deal with him.
- Instant speed, non-permanent (just to make you happy): Time Stop, Mindbreak Trap, Gather Specimens, Trickbind or Stifle the extra turn and then kill on your turn.
- Any creature with deathtouch. Yes, you lose six permanents, but we're at a point in the game where someone has managed to make 15. You ought to be ok. If not, you deserve what's coming to you.
Granted all of this assumes Emrakul was cast, not cheated into play. But if he was cheated, you should be fine to just Wrath or O-Ring since the other player didn't get an extra turn.
Oh, wait, here's my favorite:
- Maybe when someone makes 15 that's a sign the game should be over. I know so many EDH players seem to have this weird thing about wanting games to just keep going for ever, but it seems to me that if you couldn't find any of these instant-speed answers and no one has a sorcery-speed one either, then maybe it's time to shuffle up a new game.
As a personal endnote, I don't play Emrakul in any of my decks. Not to avoid being a dbag, and not because I don't own one, but because I feel like the risk of getting hit with bribery combined with the hate he draws when cast makes him a bigger liability than asset.
But even if you disagree, he's miles away from broken, and I think the mere fact that this thread exists is a testament to how far EDH has strayed from being a fun format in many playgroups. The EDH community has become this weird cliquish thing where there are tons of cards that are pseudo-banned by being "frowned upon," and where people complain endlessly about any deck where the sole puspose isn't to play big, dumb, long, lulzy games. Yes, I guess some people consider that fun, but many people like challenging or interesting games and board states. Some people like knowing that they have to answer threats carefully and play smart. I feel like EDH had moved to a place where that kind of player is not really welcome, and this thread is a symptom of that larger problem.
Oh wow i have made a horrible mistake, emmy and erayo must be pokemon cards, not magic cards...wait i just checked the backs and they in fact are magic cards!!!!!! Idk bout you but when i come to play magic i come to play all of magic, i dont pick and choose which cards i just dont wana play against. Lock is a strategy in magic, ramp into emmy is a strategy in magic, combo is a strategy in magic. If you ignore one than can you really say you are playing magic?
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
He came out with haste and wiped one player from the board. No one deserves to lose if they don't happen to have untapped mana + plus a card that can effect emmy at instant speed.
Why? Other then emmy why would this be needed. I had a maze of ith out, not that it helped with annihilator 6. You can say you should would and could have X to deal with it. But if you have to make your whole deck around being able to deal with emmy you have already lost this argument. Even if half the time you could deal with him the other half of the time is still a waste of the time spent shuffling and starting up a game.
Not everyone plays blue. Nor should they need to just for one card.
Really cause it seems to me that the fact this thread exists shows more then any other card people feel this one is broken and it ruins the fun of EDH. So they are trying to put it back on the path to being fun by making house rules banning him. I know my group is seriously talking about it.
As to you saying bribery is an answer to emmy you are wrong. Sure the person with the Emmy may not win, but the game is still shortened and ruined cause of emmy I know I only run bribery because of emmy. But I just use the persons emmy against them and no one else.
In any case, Emrakul serves a useful role in the ecology of Magic and EDH. In any game which is balanced, a point needs to be reached where playing defensively is trumped by playing offensively. Emrakul is from a set that was dubbed "battlecruiser Magic" in design, based on the designer's experiences playing starcraft. In Starcraft, battlecruisers are expensive but powerful units with the ability to destroy base defenses and destroy an opponent's base. There aren't a huge number of efficient responses to a battlecruiser, but in general they only enter play late in the game, so you can either harass resources or just attack them before they get to battlecruisers. Some builds could conceivably look to racing up the tech tree to get to battlecruisers early, but if you can blunt the initial assault your opponent is deprived of a lot of resources. No one calls to ban battlecruisers.
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Except, you spent so much time going devourers to counter BC's that the other terran just stomped you with heavy metal. My issue with him is that the answers tend to be too narrow and color specific to be useful to everyone.
My H/W list
defilers? Still playing sc 1? then what's all this heavy metal? I'm so confused...
EDIT: oops, misread that last bit.
anyway, the majority of answers tend towards blue and white i suppose, although black is ok too. red and green don't have a lot, but then those colors tend to be more aggro, so of course they aren't going to have control elements like white and blue. If you're playing in those colors, your best bet is to try to kill them ASAP before they can get the 15 mana to drop emmy. although ofc there are a decent number of colorless hosers for emmy too.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
This is a thoughtful post. I disagree with some of your assertions, but they are presented very well.
1. Cheating Emrakul into play is powerful, certainly. Some decks (with Oath of Druids, for instance) run Emrakul, Tidespout Tyrant, and similar cards with the intention of doing just that. But again, like I have stated in several other posts in similar threads, it's the engine that's doing the powerful things. Legacy Reanimator says "Dark Ritual, Entomb for Iona, Shield of Emeria, Exhume" and you lose the game -- Iona isn't the problem here. Similarly, if you Oath into Emmy on turn 3, Emmy isn't the problem; he's just the wincon of choice. Sundering Titan or Terrastadon would've been just as bad (as in, they also cause you to lose the game).
2. You agree that Rofellos is a problem: Rofellos is one of the engines I talked about in point #1, not a bomb in and of himself. To clarify: Rofellos won't win the game by himself, but he is cheap to cast and enables you to do stupid stuff, much like Oath of Druids, Necropotence, or Sol Ring. Emmy is an entirely different story: he is the epitome of a late-game card, and all you need to do is cast him and turn him sideways to win. The only thing Emmy and Rofellos have in common is that they are both creatures and they are both good cards -- hardly grounds for the comparison you drew. (Though I will admit, a hardcasted Emrakul stands a decent -- but NOT definite -- chance of ending the game. I don't think anyone is arguing this point, because the same can be said of so many other cards.)
3. I guess this is just personal opinion. To me, I don't see the difference between my opponent tapping for 15 mana and casting Emrakul or if tapping for 15 mana and casting Survival of the Fittest. The result is the same: I lose if I don't have an answer, or I lose because I didn't answer it preemptively. Again, Emmy isn't the most stereotypically "fun" thing to lose to, but then again, most good cards aren't.
4. If every one has exhausted their resources, then yes, Emrakul or any other bomby wincon will typically do the job. But as for the color issue, if mono-red and mono-green can deal with or outrace Emmy reliably (firsthand experience here), the color pie has no play. Does coping with a metagame full of Emrakul require a change in strategy? Yes. Does it even require some nontraditional card choices? Sometimes. But does it require playing bad cards? No. This is the real measure of whether something needs to be banned based on power level.
I will restate the fact that you do make a good argument, though. I tip my hat to you, sir, and thanks for staying levelheaded in the midst of an apparently fevered debate!
The fact that so many football fans are against the Raiders means that there's something up with the team. I'm not saying that they should be disqualified because 50% of football fans don't like them. But the fact that 50% of football fans don't like them means there's probably something wrong with them. (Now I'm just being argumentative... it's all in good fun, I promise! ;))
You pretty much said what I could not articulate. Awesome.
Unfortunately, it would seem this topic is going to rage on no matter what anyone says. Seeing as how getting riled up over this isn't exactly conducive to my walk with Christ, I think I've had my fill of this thread. I guess I can't exactly do anything about the outcome, anyway; the EDH Rules Comittee will make their decisions the same way they always have, for better or for worse.
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Yes they are strategies in magic- and what does the strategy do? keep the other players from not casting a single spell. That's what they're designed to do. You asked why they're hated and i gave you the reason- everyone else can't play, which is what they sat down to do.
Any permanent that can stop an emmy in his tracks will be answered before he is cast. Icy manipulator could cost you the game if you didn't make someone sac 6. Why would it be a stupid play to destroy it?
I don't have time to retort everyone's reasons, someone else will pick up where i left off.
So, I couldn't find 50. I only looked for about 20 minutes, but here's a decent starting list. Note that some spells don't deal with him forever - some just buy you a turn. But since there are MANY more sorcery-speed answers than instant-speed ones, that should be fine, right? Buying a turn in order for someone to O-ring, DoJ, Bone Shredder, or whatever is also good. Also, note that some answers do require you to suffer one swing, maybe lose some permanents - but at least it only happens once. For 15 of my opponent's mana, I'll take it.
Mindbreak Trap
Time Stop (obviously the best)
Diabolic Edict
Dispense Justice
Odds//Ends (Ends)
Hit//Run (Hit) (ouch!)
Wing Shards
Ertai's Meddling (will KILL the emmy player. With 7 counters on him exiled, I guarantee every player will gang up and kill him before it happens).
Gather Specimens
Rout (sweet card)
Retaliate (you gotta get hit once, but at least he's out)
Puppet's Verdict (maybe!)
Tsabo's Decree
Breaking Wave
Draining Whelk (doesn't counter him - but you get a 16/16 to block with)
Urborg Justice (after the sac'ed creatures, you can play this and not take the damage, at least)
Brawl (hey everyone! Let's team up to kill emrakul!)
Reins of Power
Aether Shockwave (lots of tap stuff - buys you time, and no sac'ed permanents!)
Cryptic Command
Ensnare
Naya Charm
Thoughtweft Gambit
Turnabout
Moment of Silence
Orim's Chant
Sudden Spoiling (ha!)
Master Warcraft
So there you go. He's a beast, but not unanswerable.
Not if it's a harmless-looking morph. Skinthinner, for example.
EDH
Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video)
Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video)
Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video)
B Shirei (video)
WU Rasputin (video) (retired)
R Urabrask (video)
WUR Zedruu (video) (retired)
W Isamaru
UB Grimgrin
U Mistform Ultimus (video)
UBR Gwendlyn (video)
URG Animar (video)
RG Thromok
WB Selenia
Standard
WU Geist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired)
WUB Battle of Wits!
Nice list!
(Multiplayer)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
WUBSharuum the Hegemon
(American 1v1)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
WUGDerevi
As you can see, most the the answers you gave are in blue. We KNOW that blue has answers to this card. We KNOW Time Stop is a good card in EDH, not just for emrakul but in general. How many green or red cards did you find. I am not talking about the situation ones, like brawl, which need the board to be in a specific state, but actual answers. In green? Many of the "answers" are so situational, you would be lucky to get emmy with it. Much of the stuff also still allows emmy to use the annihilator ability. Also, many would not normally be run in a deck. Sure, your opponent tapping out for a 15/15 evasive shroudish guy who forces you to sac permanents isn't too bad. But the time walk, ensuring that even if you did get rid of emmy your opponent would still have his turn, is the thing that puts the card over the top.
My H/W list
considering the insane restrictions on the list, he did pretty well. oh, and odds/ends work, which i only bring up because it kicks ass, restrictive colors notwithstanding. oh, also mirrorweave works.
admittedly most of those are pretty subpar and only a temporary solution at best. and of course most of them are white and blue, they're the colors with answers. but i think it's funny that you bring up green - let's say, for sake of theory, that emrakul had no protection whatsoever. How many instant-speed answers would green have then? they'd have, um, plummet. and gloomwidow's feast. AWESOME.
green just isn't a color with creature removal, you can't expect it to have many to emrakul, or anything for that matter. but green does have a lot of artifact and land removal which it can use to slow down emmy's mana base, while beating the crap out of him. green doesn't have answers to everything, but as consolation they have efficient creatures that can kill people before the nasty stuff comes out.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I am not really a fan of darcangel's ideas of cheap control creatures but he/she has a point here. It can be difficult to see but the average converted mana cost of most EDH decks really hover around the 3-5 casting cost which possibly implies that cheap control creatures are being played though probably not as much as darcangel would like it to be.
Ironically, a few posts later, someone starts arguing that all the answers are in monoblue
This is slightly unreasonable. Name me 50 instant speed answers to a Time Stretch?
I believe that you may be underestimating politics and social dynamics here. When I see Emrakul being played early on or even being cheated into play, the caster will generally be converged upon -- very much like the Archenemy -- and he/she will promptly be slaughtered. The hate will proceed even onto game 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,... you get the idea.
I am not a fan for this argument. Comparing Erayo lock and prison strategy with Emrakul is like comparing apple and oranges. Locks and prison strategies generally come down by turn 1-3 while Emrakul -- even with the best of ramps and cheats -- will probably come down on turn 4-6.
And yeah, there were a decent number of cards on that list that would answer Emrakul, but only after one swing, meaning one instance of Annihilator 6 happening (usually beating the damage, though). But you know what? Oh well. That's what you get for 15 mana - and if you didn't know you'd at least get a little bang for your buck, he'd be awful.
You know what I really hope Emrakul does for the format? I hope he teaches everyone to be more aggressive. Lots of games I see where players stockpile huge armies, never attacking because they don't want to be the jerk that knocks someone out of the game, or they fear retaliation and don't want to make enemies. Then someone plays Emrakul on turn 14 and suddenly that player's the jerk. You know what? Kill them before they get there. That's green and red's answer. Blow up their lands and artifacts, don't let anyone untap with more than 12 mana, and kill them with power.
Tajuru Preserver. My work here is done.
MTGSalvation 1v1 EDH Community Members List
//gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[%22counter%20target%20spell%22">"]Here's some
I wasn't comparing the two, someone else was asking why losing to emrakul or braids or smokestack or emrakul is "more annoying/stressful" than losing to mass tokens or combo.
They fall into the same category of "you're not playing anymore" style of play. Many times if someone HAS a wrath, some unlucky fellow is down to 2 lands, and then wrath goes off, and the game continues as normal. Except he's hobbled.
Hornet Sting
But you're right, that and brittle effigy, nevin's disk, etc are green's best answers to it, which hardly are (tajuru is really narrow.. but i guess if you hate emmy..) if they emrakul player has any answers, or if you simply don't draw in it- you won't have a lot of answers. Your best bet is to either kill him before he can cast, or win through lockdown effects.
http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22counter+target+spell%22+t%3Ainstant&v=card&s=cname
Easily 50 in there, also that is not even counting things that change target of spells.
There are a lot of counters:/ None of which are answers for Emmy.