I finally started playing him in mono green just to show people who still play him how unfun he is. The actual card hasn't arrived in the mail yet so I drew a giant ***** on a mana Myr and used that as a proxy (after all, Emrakul is a dick card).
Anyway I went infinite with him, Greater Good and Eye of Ugin on turn 8 so I just scooped so everyone else could continue playing. The games I didn't go infinite with Emrakul I just flat out won via Annihilator and recursion.
By the end of the night at least one player took Emrakul out of their deck because I'd proven my point about how unfun of a card it is.
You sir are my Hero
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I will be typing up deck lists as soon as I an be bothered, I really only play EDH:
Emrakul is only a threat early in the game, as late in the game I can sac 10 permanents for all I care, I should have a well developed board presence, as well as an answer or two for it. Or I should have won already. Mostly the me winning arguement.
The problem with Emrakul is not Emrakul, as he costs 15 mana. The problem is how easy it is to get to 15 mana in this format. It's why Channel was banned, and not Eldrazi. Its why Necropotence is banned in everything besides EDH and Vintage, it should win the game the turn it drops or the next turn. With 15 mana any of my decks should be able to do enough ridiculous stuff to win me the game.
Seriously, I don't know why people are still debating Emrakul's banworthy status. He isn't a problem. If my Squee deck can deal with Emrakul (Chain Reaction for something like 7, Kindle the Carnage for the rest), so can any other well built deck. The problem isn't Emrakul, the problem is a bunch of scrubs don't love their generals enough to have an answer to one creature.
Seriously, I don't know why people are still debating Emrakul's banworthy status. He isn't a problem. If my Squee deck can deal with Emrakul (Chain Reaction for something like 7, Kindle the Carnage for the rest), so can any other well built deck. The problem isn't Emrakul, the problem is a bunch of scrubs don't love their generals enough to have an answer to one creature.
hahahahahah
this isn't street fighter. It's a casual format. I'm glad you can have 7 mana and two cards after you annihilated 6 permanents, but that's not a reason to say "he's not a problem". What if you didn't have the cards in hand? What if you used the chain reaction on someone spawning 50 1/1s? You'd lose the game. Now you're saving spells for 1 card in someone's deck. That's degenerate.
"Protection from colored spells" means that Emrakul can't be the target of colored spells (including colored Aura spells) or of abilities whose sources are colored spells (such as the "when you cast" ability of an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre that's been turned red by Painter's Servant). It also means that all damage that would be dealt to Emrakul by colored spells is prevented. Like every protection ability, it works only while Emrakul is on the battlefield.
Yes you're right i didn't even realize that those spells would do nothing to him. "Destroy all creatures" would work since it neither targets nor deals damage, or a creature or enchantment that deals damage would kill him- but not spells
this isn't street fighter. It's a casual format. I'm glad you can have 7 mana and two cards after you annihilated 6 permanents, but that's not a reason to say "he's not a problem". What if you didn't have the cards in hand? What if you used the chain reaction on someone spawning 50 1/1s? You'd lose the game. Now you're saving spells for 1 card in someone's deck. That's degenerate.
Since when does "casual" mean put less thought into a deck? You too can have 7 mana after Annihilator 6, and should if Emmy was hardcasted late game, like when I said that happened. Even if you miss a handful of land drops, you should still have well above 10 lands and some other permanents by turn 12-15. If I know Emrakul is in a deck, I'm absolutely going to hold onto an answer for him if I get it, that's the point of running answers. If someone was spawning 50 1/1's, I'd let him take out the Emrakul player, then cast Chain Reaction. Every color has tutorable way to deal with Emrakul:
Red has the hardest time dealing with Emmy, and even he gets artifacts like Effigy, Oblivion Stone, Avarice Totem. None of these are even super-niche cards (Preserver excluded, obviously), and can be run in any deck with the given colors. Most decks run at least 1 of the tutors I've listed, so that's already 2 chances to deal with Emrakul. With the exception of Survival / Shaman none of the cards are above 10$, and most can be paid for with the change you find in your car on the way to the LGS, so I know budget isn't a concern in regards to dealing with Emrakul.
I stand by my assessment of his lack of banworthyness. I'm not saying he isn't good, that he doesn't win games, or that he is fun. I'm saying he's no worse than Sundering Titan, or you know, anything else someone can do with 15 mana.
I finally started playing him in mono green just to show people who still play him how unfun he is. The actual card hasn't arrived in the mail yet so I drew a giant ***** on a mana Myr and used that as a proxy (after all, Emrakul is a dick card).
Anyway I went infinite with him, Greater Good and Eye of Ugin on turn 8 so I just scooped so everyone else could continue playing. The games I didn't go infinite with Emrakul I just flat out won via Annihilator and recursion.
By the end of the night at least one player took Emrakul out of their deck because I'd proven my point about how unfun of a card it is.
although it's impressive that you managed to get 20 mana on turn 8, i hardly think a 3 card combo (especially one that requires greater good-rather hard for green to tutor for-and eye of ugin doesn't have a ton of tutors either) that wins the game is degenerate. arcum assembles winning combos much faster than that, and he's a tutor by himself so it's much much more consistant. emmy's protection is sort of irrelevant when greater good or eye of ugin can be easily removed. it seems to me that all you did was prove that combos are annoying by using a relatively tame combo.
i went ahead and looked at my deck and out of the 13 cards that deal with him, 6 of them can deal with him over and over, and 2 of them are permanent solutions. Of course, the deck is still in beta so I don't have many tutors, but once I weed some stuff out to make room for some I'm guessing I'll be able to consistantly handle emmy by turn 3-4 even if he's somehow hardcasted by then. And like I said, that deck isn't built with emmy in mind AT ALL.
just use more permanent-based removal. it's good in edh in general, not just against emmy.
i went ahead and looked at my deck and out of the 13 cards that deal with him, 6 of them can deal with him over and over, and 2 of them are permanent solutions. Of course, the deck is still in beta so I don't have many tutors, but once I weed some stuff out to make room for some I'm guessing I'll be able to consistantly handle emmy by turn 3-4 even if he's somehow hardcasted by then. And like I said, that deck isn't built with emmy in mind AT ALL.
just use more permanent-based removal. it's good in edh in general, not just against emmy.
How many are instant speed?
And btw his example of how he won with emmy was just an example. ANYthing he says will just be answered with as "well the other players aren't good or you got lucky".
I think this card should be banned, and let me tell you why. This card comes down extremely early (turn 2, consistently) and demands an immediate answer. If not addressed right away, this card will lock down the entire table and proceed to win the game. Not only that, but it very difficult to deal with, especially so early. Even if you get rid of it once, it just comes right back! At least it's not good in just any old deck, right?
My point is this: if it's a problem in your playgroup, then you should do something about it. Just because Emrakul has a powerful, even game-winning effect is no reason to ban it.
When someone sinks mana into Emrakul, is it any more powerful than when someone sinks mana into Survival of the Fittest?
If someone hastily assembles an infinite mana combo like some previous posters have suggested, does it matter whether they cast Emmy or any X-spell?
If you let the control player keep a fist of cards and survive until they have 15+ mana at their disposal, wouldn't they probably have won anyway, either via Time Stretch or some arbitrary combo?
And If Eldrazi are really as rampant as people make it seem, should even the Emmy-specific answers be considered "narrow?" My mono-red deck runs Avarice Totem, Helm of Possession, and Thieves' Auction as generic catch-all answers to anything I might have trouble removing otherwise, and Eldrazi also happen to fall victim to these cards as easily as anything else.
I'll admit, Annihilator isn't the most "fun" mechanic to lose to. However, it is a far cry from being ban-worthy. You get what you pay for is all (or, in the case of Defense of the Heart, I guess you don't have to pay for it).
EDIT: That sounded more like a rant than I had originally intended. Sorry! Just trying to look at the big picture.
AMEN BROTHER AMEN!!
Really, if anyone here is banning Emrakul as a card or general, why not get rid of Uril as a general, because he is hard to answer. Or Any infinite combo. Or Erayo as a general.
How do you spell "resilience" ?
E
D
H
If your deck can't answer a wide threat of answers, YOU WILL LOSE. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER FORMAT IN ALL OF MAGIC.
If you don't enjoy winning by making sure your deck can answer those threats, then Magic is not the game for you, because THAT IS THE GOAL.
Why not ban Dragon Tyrant because Mr. I-Play-Scion-of-the-Ur-Dragon can cheat it into play essentially, and kill you in a single turn? How about Zur as a general? Sol ring? All of those cards can create just as powerful plays, if not more-so.
Banning cards just because they are powerful is a ridiculous and childish thing to do. The people that created EDH are the experts here. If they feel that Emrakul does not deserve to be banned, IT'S PROBABLY FOR A GOOD REASON.
And btw his example of how he won with emmy was just an example. ANYthing he says will just be answered with as "well the other players aren't good or you got lucky".
most of them are permanents with an ability that deals with him, so in that sense all of them are instant speed except retribution of the meek i believe.
let me put it this way: explain why emrakul is more problematic than arcum dagsson or other dangerous cards.
most of them are permanents with an ability that deals with him, so in that sense all of them are instant speed except retribution of the meek i believe.
let me put it this way: explain why emrakul is more problematic than arcum dagsson or other dangerous cards.
Simple, he can be played in any deck. Almost any deck is better with him in it, as games tend to go longer, relying on strength of bombs. In that way, he is warping. You are either running him as he is one of the best things you can use your mana on, or you are running bribery to steal him. He says "You need an instant speed answer or the game is going to get unfun for at least one person". In a way, he is far worse than Kokusho (unless he had a really stong recursion engine....say Recurring Nightmare), because a five life drop is nothing compared to sacrificing six permanents. The Time walk mean that, sure you may have that wing shards in hand, but the Emrakul player just untapped and swung, forcing you to sac 6 permanents and leaving his massive amount of mana open to respond to any removal you may be playing.
most of them are permanents with an ability that deals with him, so in that sense all of them are instant speed except retribution of the meek i believe.
let me put it this way: explain why emrakul is more problematic than arcum dagsson or other dangerous cards.
The list goes on. And i wouldn't cast emmy with a brittle effigy out unless i really needed that extra turn. Get rid of the answers and then cast, no biggie, and you had to sac 6.
That doesn't make him better, that makes him more balanced. if sol ring was blue everyone would want it banned since it would be a huge advantage to blue.
Almost any deck is better with him in it, as games tend to go longer, relying on strength of bombs.
That's not even close to true. a 15 mana card sitting in your hand all game is idiotic for any deck that doesn't have an insane amount of ramp. besides, as has been mentioned already, he's not that great late in the game - people have enough perms to remove and plenty of mana for expensive mass removal.
You are either running him as he is one of the best things you can use your mana on, or you are running bribery to steal him.
I can think of plenty of things i'd rather spend a massive 15 mana on. if bribery is pissing you off, then stop putting him in decks where he isn't that good.
He says "You need an instant speed answer or the game is going to get unfun for at least one person".
there are loads of answers to him that are otherwise good cards. and making the game unfun for just one person in multiplayer is hardly a game winning card, there are loads of cards that do that.
In a way, he is far worse than Kokusho (unless he had a really stong recursion engine....say Recurring Nightmare), because a five life drop is nothing compared to sacrificing six permanents.
if you ask me, kokusho isn't that good either. FFS, he has to die 8 times before he can kill anyone, and everyone will be beating the crap out of him until then.
The Time walk mean that, sure you may have that wing shards in hand, but the Emrakul player just untapped and swung, forcing you to sac 6 permanents and leaving his massive amount of mana open to respond to any removal you may be playing.
-if they're playing blue (and thus have countermagic available to stop wing shards) they're either briberying him (in which case no time walk) or they had to get all the way to 15 mana...which isn't all that easy in blue.
-if they're not playing blue, there really aren't many ways they could protect him from wing shards. and you do realize that storm gets around countermagic like a champ, right?
anyway, wing shards isn't what I'd use to take him down, but i guess it's an ok way to do it. but look at intrepid hero - that guy kicks emmy's ass over and over. mangara of corondor slaughters the guy permanently. azorius guildmage keeps him permanently tapped down - and there's tons of other tapdown cards which are less awesome.
i can keep going, if you guys really can't think of any good ideas....
The list goes on. And i wouldn't cast emmy with a brittle effigy out unless i really needed that extra turn. Get rid of the answers and then cast, no biggie, and you had to sac 6.
do you actually run terror or lightning bolt?
I can make an equally long list of stuff that handles emrakul. but most importantly, emrakul costs fifteen while arcum costs 4. arcum is a viable general while emrakul is not, which means he keeps coming back. Arcum is a game-over-for-everyone-at-the-table while emrakul is not. You absolutely MUST have a response for arcum before turn 5, and you must use it, or else everyone just lost. oh, and arcum is in blue so i hope you've got enough to get through the counterspells as well.
if people are building good decks and everyone has a pretty decent number of answers to emrakul, it would be extremely hard for him to get rid of them all, especially if they're well protected. I make removal and protection key parts of any deck I make.
I can make an equally long list of stuff that handles emrakul. but most importantly, emrakul costs fifteen while arcum costs 4. arcum is a viable general while emrakul is not, which means he keeps coming back. Arcum is a game-over-for-everyone-at-the-table while emrakul is not. You absolutely MUST have a response for arcum before turn 5, and you must use it, or else everyone just lost. oh, and arcum is in blue so i hope you've got enough to get through the counterspells as well.
if people are building good decks and everyone has a pretty decent number of answers to emrakul, it would be extremely hard for him to get rid of them all, especially if they're well protected. I make removal and protection key parts of any deck I make.
You cannot make a list of every spell that deals with emrakul - even sorcery speed- that even compares to the list of cards that have "destroy ; creature" to some extent, mainly because we're both trying to destroy a creature, and emmy says "no,no" to any colored spells (there's a lot of colored spells). I gave you the reasons why emrakul is more of a problem than arcum, and you just shrugged it off. No he's not a general in every deck like arcum- but he gets shuffled back in, to be tutored for again.
And yeah i would run lightning bolt and terror to deal with arcum- if i saw i was losing turn 5 or less. Of course i'm going to run cheap kill spells. I'd run shock even! If you can put in cards for emrakul then i can put in cards for whatever you say is a bigger threat. And what if i counterspell arcum? What if i counter the wrath of god after i casted emrakul? He's not the only card in my hand.
You made other logical fallacies in response to beanman1000, but i'll let him respond.. i'm getting tired of this.
You cannot make a list of every spell that deals with emrakul - even sorcery speed- that even compares to the list of cards that have "destroy ; creature" to some extent, mainly because we're both trying to destroy a creature, and emmy says "no,no" to any colored spells (there's a lot of colored spells). I gave you the reasons why emrakul is more of a problem than arcum, and you just shrugged it off. No he's not a general in every deck like arcum- but he gets shuffled back in, to be tutored for again.
And yeah i would run lightning bolt and terror to deal with arcum- if i saw i was losing turn 5 or less. Of course i'm going to run cheap kill spells. I'd run shock even! If you can put in cards for emrakul then i can put in cards for whatever you say is a bigger threat. And what if i counterspell arcum? What if i counter the wrath of god after i casted emrakul? He's not the only card in my hand.
You made other logical fallacies in response to beanman1000, but i'll let him respond.. i'm getting tired of this.
how long of a list do you need? If I could find, say, 50 cards that deal with emrakul without ever sacking permanents, would that be enough? Would that make this stupid thread die? Sure, there's probably hundreds of ways to kill arcum and maybe less than a hundred to deal with emmy, but considering you can only have 100 cards in a deck, who cares?
if you're suggesting that you'd change your deck to be better against arcum...i could definitely do the same against emmy (If I felt like it was necessary, which i don't, because I use that sort of removal all the time anyway) and there are pleeeenty of things that do the job just fine.
how long of a list do you need? If I could find, say, 50 cards that deal with emrakul without ever sacking permanents, would that be enough? Would that make this stupid thread die? Sure, there's probably hundreds of ways to kill arcum and maybe less than a hundred to deal with emmy, but considering you can only have 100 cards in a deck, who cares?
if you're suggesting that you'd change your deck to be better against arcum...i could definitely do the same against emmy (If I felt like it was necessary, which i don't, because I use that sort of removal all the time anyway) and there are pleeeenty of things that do the job just fine.
The board is clear, and someone hard casts emrakul.
Name 50 cards to get out of the situation without sacrificing 6. Bonus points if they are cards that would be run regardless if anyone was playing Emrakul.
The board is clear, and someone hard casts emrakul.
Name 50 cards to get out of the situation without sacrificing 6. Bonus points if they are cards that would be run regardless if anyone was playing Emrakul.
I won't name 50, but I'll name a few.
If the board is clear and somebody has the mana to cast emmy, you've screwed up already and deserve to lose:
Anybody may play Vedalken Orrery at any point prior + any creature removal. VO + (Oblivion ring, wrath of god, day of judgement, Journey to nowhere, Damnation, various others)
After he comes in, if not hard casted (or if he is and you take a turn), there are a TON of ways to remove him.
Honestly, gather specimens, time stop, mind over matter, and mindbreak trap are all good enough that they could be played in any blue deck and can deal with emmy at instant speed. Obviously, blue is the color that really gives you answers, but that's because blue is the best color in magic ;-p
Edit: Note that each answer here prevents you from being attacked with Emrakul even if hard casted (although some still give the caster an extra turn), therefore you don't sac 6, and there are about a dozen copy effects which would cause Emrakul to be destroyed, as well as maybe 100 ways to wipe the board or cause him to be sacrificed if he is not hardcasted.
So the board is completely clear of creatures, enchantments, artifacts, utility lands and planeswalkers and Emrakul has presumably been hardcasted (it has to be hardcasted because there are no artifacts or utility lands in play) and I have to name fifty cards, presumably spread equally across all colours so that nobody cries out "well you didn't cover my general so it doesn't count" and they all have to be instants, yeah? Well, let's see...
...GG Emrakul player. He just sped up a game that would otherwise have taken a few more hours to decide after a badly timed wrath.
Good deckbuilding isn't about having an answer to every situation, its about being prepared. The best ways of dealing with Emrakul are cards that deal with the problem before its a problem - Jester's Cap is a worthwhile anti-combo measure, as is Sadistic Sacrament. Seal of Doom is able to hit Emmy and can be recurred with Sun Titan, which is awesome.
If Emrakul is rampant, a card that said "Each player sacrifices an Emrakul" would be an amazing utility card. If Emrakul is not rampant, ganging up on the one guy who has it is an efficient answer.
That said, I'm in the "complain about Emrakul" thread and there's always gonna be one card that everyone hates. It's like a thing, isn't it? Perish the thought that we're ever satisfied with this game
*EDIT - Oh, rhythmguy, your wild beats and unrestrained rhythm were too fast for me. ^.^
The best ways of dealing with Emrakul are cards that deal with the problem before its a problem - Jester's Cap is a worthwhile anti-combo measure, as is Sadistic Sacrament.
This is the best way to deal with emrakul in my opinion. Having an icy manipulator isn't. If i can estimate i'm casting emmy soon, i'm naturalize-ing it. Same goes for a disk, and every other permanent that can stop him. Naturally if everyone ran hard control, it would be nothing short of a wrath to clear the board before emmy hits. But lets be realistic, you're not always going to have that board position. I know the 50 card challenge was stupid because there aren't 50 cards.
That said, I'm in the "complain about Emrakul" thread and there's always gonna be one card that everyone hates. It's like a thing, isn't it? Perish the thought that we're ever satisfied with this game
Probably, but emrakul is the biggest pain in everyone's rear end. Our playgroup has banned him, and our games are truly more fun. The only reason i argue here is because statements like
"he's not that big of a deal" "run answers" "wrath of god"
If emrakul isn't a big deal, then you should never lose a game, since you're capable of controlling the most devastating creature in all of magic. It's hard to imagine being so responsive, so precise in your answers - that you'd lose to any other card(s)
If emrakul isn't a big deal, then you should never lose a game, since you're capable of controlling the most devastating creature in all of magic. It's hard to imagine being so responsive, so precise in your answers - that you'd lose to any other card(s)
To be honest I rarely do lose a game when I'm running one of my good decks, but when I do lose it's to multiple cards and table politics, not one single bomb.
as far as your post above, get real. if the field is completely clear, then you're telling me mr. emrakul cast him from...15 lands?
even if that somehow happened, you'd ostensibly have a similarly huge number of lands and could afford to sacrifice them, then retaliate on your next turn. it's been established that the only time emrakul is truly devastating is early in the game, in which case it's pretty impossible for emmy to get hardcast after a complete sweeper. If giving you a perfectly reasonably sized list of otherwise-good permanents that easily dispatch emrakul at relatively early stages of the game isn't enough to please you, then i don't know what you want.
be honest, how many answers to emrakul do you have in the deck you use the most?
Everyone in this thread who is against banning Emrakul are giving such narrow answers. Seal of Doom? Squall Line? Avarice Totem? Diabolic Edict?
I'd rather lose to Emrakul then make my deck worse by adding in narrow cards that only have the purpose of hosing him. I use the word hosing lightly, because even if you trade a removal for him, he's still Time Walked you and likely shuffled back into your opponent's deck.
Also, just because it hasn't been banned yet doesn't mean it's not on the chopping block.
Everyone in this thread who is against banning Emrakul are giving such narrow answers. Seal of Doom? Squall Line? Avarice Totem? Diabolic Edict?
I'd rather lose to Emrakul then make my deck worse by adding in narrow cards that only have the purpose of hosing him. I use the word hosing lightly, because even if you trade a removal for him, he's still Time Walked you and likely shuffled back into your opponent's deck.
Also, just because it hasn't been banned yet doesn't mean it's not on the chopping block.
like I said, there are plenty of cards that deal with him and are also very playable in general. you don't have to weaken your deck at all. permanent-based removal is good in EDH anyway, although of course instants also have an important part to play. it just isn't usually in dealing with emrakul.
I'm not saying you need to pack your deck with them, but there are so many good cards that just HAPPEN to hose emrakul that I would assume the average deck has at LEAST 5-10 ways to kill him. maybe you don't have one available right away, but someone at the table ought to.
admittedly most of the good ones that I'm aware of are in white, blue, and black...but red and, to a lesser extent, green, were always supbar in EDH anyway.
I agree there are a few good answers to Emrakul, but some of the ones listed earlier in this thread are simply not viable for EDH.
My two favorite answers to Emrakul are Mindbreak Trap and Duplicant. I think I have to give the nod to Duplicant because it can remove most pesky creatures for good (assuming they aren't the general).
I agree there are a few good answers to Emrakul, but some of the ones listed earlier in this thread are simply not viable for EDH.
My two favorite answers to Emrakul are Mindbreak Trap and Duplicant. I think I have to give the nod to Duplicant because it can remove most pesky creatures for good (assuming they aren't the general).
well, except that duplicant can't be used until the turn after emrakul. but in a multiplayer game the odds aren't that great of being attacked by emrakul first, so it's usually fine. besides a few unusual circumstances, though, i don't see why it's any more versatile at removal than swords to plowshares (emrakul of course being one of those unusual circumstances).
anyway, if it will actually satisfy people i'll make a list of 50 cards that deal with emrakul before he can even attack, and probably most of them will be viable outside of emrakul-removal situations. I kinda get the feeling that people are going to keep whining anyway, though. But if anyone reading this just wants a how-to on removing emrakul, i'll start sorting through cards.
I checked and as in your statement before there's about 5-10 answers (more in savra if i have a good position out) in each of my decks. Does that mean if i didn't have them in hand i'm bad? Or unlucky? I try to think of magic more of a skill based game but you can't get around the luck of some situations.
Emrakul is a "answer in hand or lose" card. It's idiotic, silly, and trying to defend it is too. Like what i said before- if you can consistently deal with emrakul, then you should have no problem winning every single game against your opponents- regardless of their deck. They seem to never run answers to your answers, counterspells, and i guess just run lands and emrakul. Saying it's 'not a big deal' just translates to ignorance to me.
anyway, if it will actually satisfy people i'll make a list of 50 cards that deal with emrakul before he can even attack, and probably most of them will be viable outside of emrakul-removal situations. I kinda get the feeling that people are going to keep whining anyway, though. But if anyone reading this just wants a how-to on removing emrakul, i'll start sorting through cards.
Please do- i'd love to see 50 instant speed removals for emrakul.
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You sir are my Hero
Thraximundar Control voltron
Darien, King of Dudes The swarm
Karador, Ghost ChieftainJunk graveyard
Erebos, God of the DeadMy BIG BLACK.......deck
Zedruu the kindhearted My take on Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Roon of the Hidden Realm Bounce house
The problem with Emrakul is not Emrakul, as he costs 15 mana. The problem is how easy it is to get to 15 mana in this format. It's why Channel was banned, and not Eldrazi. Its why Necropotence is banned in everything besides EDH and Vintage, it should win the game the turn it drops or the next turn. With 15 mana any of my decks should be able to do enough ridiculous stuff to win me the game.
Seriously, I don't know why people are still debating Emrakul's banworthy status. He isn't a problem. If my Squee deck can deal with Emrakul (Chain Reaction for something like 7, Kindle the Carnage for the rest), so can any other well built deck. The problem isn't Emrakul, the problem is a bunch of scrubs don't love their generals enough to have an answer to one creature.
BRRakdos, Lord of RiotsBR
hahahahahah
this isn't street fighter. It's a casual format. I'm glad you can have 7 mana and two cards after you annihilated 6 permanents, but that's not a reason to say "he's not a problem". What if you didn't have the cards in hand? What if you used the chain reaction on someone spawning 50 1/1s? You'd lose the game. Now you're saving spells for 1 card in someone's deck. That's degenerate.
Yes you're right i didn't even realize that those spells would do nothing to him. "Destroy all creatures" would work since it neither targets nor deals damage, or a creature or enchantment that deals damage would kill him- but not spells
Since when does "casual" mean put less thought into a deck? You too can have 7 mana after Annihilator 6, and should if Emmy was hardcasted late game, like when I said that happened. Even if you miss a handful of land drops, you should still have well above 10 lands and some other permanents by turn 12-15. If I know Emrakul is in a deck, I'm absolutely going to hold onto an answer for him if I get it, that's the point of running answers. If someone was spawning 50 1/1's, I'd let him take out the Emrakul player, then cast Chain Reaction. Every color has tutorable way to deal with Emrakul:
White: Oblivion Ring (Enlightened Tutor, Idyllic Tutor)
Green: Tajuru Preserver (Survival of the Fittest, Sylvan Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Fauna Shaman)
Black: Sadistic Sacrament (any black tutor)
Blue: Evacuation (Mystical Tutor, Merchant Scroll)
Red: Brittle Effigy (Hoarding Dragon)
Red has the hardest time dealing with Emmy, and even he gets artifacts like Effigy, Oblivion Stone, Avarice Totem. None of these are even super-niche cards (Preserver excluded, obviously), and can be run in any deck with the given colors. Most decks run at least 1 of the tutors I've listed, so that's already 2 chances to deal with Emrakul. With the exception of Survival / Shaman none of the cards are above 10$, and most can be paid for with the change you find in your car on the way to the LGS, so I know budget isn't a concern in regards to dealing with Emrakul.
I stand by my assessment of his lack of banworthyness. I'm not saying he isn't good, that he doesn't win games, or that he is fun. I'm saying he's no worse than Sundering Titan, or you know, anything else someone can do with 15 mana.
BRRakdos, Lord of RiotsBR
although it's impressive that you managed to get 20 mana on turn 8, i hardly think a 3 card combo (especially one that requires greater good-rather hard for green to tutor for-and eye of ugin doesn't have a ton of tutors either) that wins the game is degenerate. arcum assembles winning combos much faster than that, and he's a tutor by himself so it's much much more consistant. emmy's protection is sort of irrelevant when greater good or eye of ugin can be easily removed. it seems to me that all you did was prove that combos are annoying by using a relatively tame combo.
i went ahead and looked at my deck and out of the 13 cards that deal with him, 6 of them can deal with him over and over, and 2 of them are permanent solutions. Of course, the deck is still in beta so I don't have many tutors, but once I weed some stuff out to make room for some I'm guessing I'll be able to consistantly handle emmy by turn 3-4 even if he's somehow hardcasted by then. And like I said, that deck isn't built with emmy in mind AT ALL.
just use more permanent-based removal. it's good in edh in general, not just against emmy.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
How many are instant speed?
And btw his example of how he won with emmy was just an example. ANYthing he says will just be answered with as "well the other players aren't good or you got lucky".
Really, if anyone here is banning Emrakul as a card or general, why not get rid of Uril as a general, because he is hard to answer. Or Any infinite combo. Or Erayo as a general.
How do you spell "resilience" ?
E
D
H
If your deck can't answer a wide threat of answers, YOU WILL LOSE. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER FORMAT IN ALL OF MAGIC.
If you don't enjoy winning by making sure your deck can answer those threats, then Magic is not the game for you, because THAT IS THE GOAL.
Why not ban Dragon Tyrant because Mr. I-Play-Scion-of-the-Ur-Dragon can cheat it into play essentially, and kill you in a single turn? How about Zur as a general? Sol ring? All of those cards can create just as powerful plays, if not more-so.
Banning cards just because they are powerful is a ridiculous and childish thing to do. The people that created EDH are the experts here. If they feel that Emrakul does not deserve to be banned, IT'S PROBABLY FOR A GOOD REASON.
most of them are permanents with an ability that deals with him, so in that sense all of them are instant speed except retribution of the meek i believe.
let me put it this way: explain why emrakul is more problematic than arcum dagsson or other dangerous cards.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Simple, he can be played in any deck. Almost any deck is better with him in it, as games tend to go longer, relying on strength of bombs. In that way, he is warping. You are either running him as he is one of the best things you can use your mana on, or you are running bribery to steal him. He says "You need an instant speed answer or the game is going to get unfun for at least one person". In a way, he is far worse than Kokusho (unless he had a really stong recursion engine....say Recurring Nightmare), because a five life drop is nothing compared to sacrificing six permanents. The Time walk mean that, sure you may have that wing shards in hand, but the Emrakul player just untapped and swung, forcing you to sac 6 permanents and leaving his massive amount of mana open to respond to any removal you may be playing.
My H/W list
Terror, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Krosan Grip, Counterspell, Lightning Bolt
The list goes on. And i wouldn't cast emmy with a brittle effigy out unless i really needed that extra turn. Get rid of the answers and then cast, no biggie, and you had to sac 6.
That doesn't make him better, that makes him more balanced. if sol ring was blue everyone would want it banned since it would be a huge advantage to blue.
That's not even close to true. a 15 mana card sitting in your hand all game is idiotic for any deck that doesn't have an insane amount of ramp. besides, as has been mentioned already, he's not that great late in the game - people have enough perms to remove and plenty of mana for expensive mass removal.
I can think of plenty of things i'd rather spend a massive 15 mana on. if bribery is pissing you off, then stop putting him in decks where he isn't that good.
there are loads of answers to him that are otherwise good cards. and making the game unfun for just one person in multiplayer is hardly a game winning card, there are loads of cards that do that.
if you ask me, kokusho isn't that good either. FFS, he has to die 8 times before he can kill anyone, and everyone will be beating the crap out of him until then.
-if they're playing blue (and thus have countermagic available to stop wing shards) they're either briberying him (in which case no time walk) or they had to get all the way to 15 mana...which isn't all that easy in blue.
-if they're not playing blue, there really aren't many ways they could protect him from wing shards. and you do realize that storm gets around countermagic like a champ, right?
anyway, wing shards isn't what I'd use to take him down, but i guess it's an ok way to do it. but look at intrepid hero - that guy kicks emmy's ass over and over. mangara of corondor slaughters the guy permanently. azorius guildmage keeps him permanently tapped down - and there's tons of other tapdown cards which are less awesome.
i can keep going, if you guys really can't think of any good ideas....
do you actually run terror or lightning bolt?
I can make an equally long list of stuff that handles emrakul. but most importantly, emrakul costs fifteen while arcum costs 4. arcum is a viable general while emrakul is not, which means he keeps coming back. Arcum is a game-over-for-everyone-at-the-table while emrakul is not. You absolutely MUST have a response for arcum before turn 5, and you must use it, or else everyone just lost. oh, and arcum is in blue so i hope you've got enough to get through the counterspells as well.
if people are building good decks and everyone has a pretty decent number of answers to emrakul, it would be extremely hard for him to get rid of them all, especially if they're well protected. I make removal and protection key parts of any deck I make.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
You cannot make a list of every spell that deals with emrakul - even sorcery speed- that even compares to the list of cards that have "destroy ; creature" to some extent, mainly because we're both trying to destroy a creature, and emmy says "no,no" to any colored spells (there's a lot of colored spells). I gave you the reasons why emrakul is more of a problem than arcum, and you just shrugged it off. No he's not a general in every deck like arcum- but he gets shuffled back in, to be tutored for again.
And yeah i would run lightning bolt and terror to deal with arcum- if i saw i was losing turn 5 or less. Of course i'm going to run cheap kill spells. I'd run shock even! If you can put in cards for emrakul then i can put in cards for whatever you say is a bigger threat. And what if i counterspell arcum? What if i counter the wrath of god after i casted emrakul? He's not the only card in my hand.
You made other logical fallacies in response to beanman1000, but i'll let him respond.. i'm getting tired of this.
how long of a list do you need? If I could find, say, 50 cards that deal with emrakul without ever sacking permanents, would that be enough? Would that make this stupid thread die? Sure, there's probably hundreds of ways to kill arcum and maybe less than a hundred to deal with emmy, but considering you can only have 100 cards in a deck, who cares?
if you're suggesting that you'd change your deck to be better against arcum...i could definitely do the same against emmy (If I felt like it was necessary, which i don't, because I use that sort of removal all the time anyway) and there are pleeeenty of things that do the job just fine.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
The board is clear, and someone hard casts emrakul.
Name 50 cards to get out of the situation without sacrificing 6. Bonus points if they are cards that would be run regardless if anyone was playing Emrakul.
I won't name 50, but I'll name a few.
If the board is clear and somebody has the mana to cast emmy, you've screwed up already and deserve to lose:
Anybody may play Vedalken Orrery at any point prior + any creature removal. VO + (Oblivion ring, wrath of god, day of judgement, Journey to nowhere, Damnation, various others)
With permanents in play: Executioner's Capsule, Brittle Effigy, Nevinyrral's Disk, Noetic Scales, Mistmeadow Witch, Door to Nothingness, many many more
Blue: Time Stop, Evacuation, Mindbreak Trap, Venser, Shaper Savant, tap it down with Mind Over Matter, Gather Specimens to steal it.
White: Rout.
Green: Matsu-Tribe Sniper to tap it down. Elvish Skysweeper to kill it.
Multicolored: Stun Sniper to tap it down. Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer to keep it from attacking.
After he comes in, if not hard casted (or if he is and you take a turn), there are a TON of ways to remove him.
Honestly, gather specimens, time stop, mind over matter, and mindbreak trap are all good enough that they could be played in any blue deck and can deal with emmy at instant speed. Obviously, blue is the color that really gives you answers, but that's because blue is the best color in magic ;-p
Edit: Note that each answer here prevents you from being attacked with Emrakul even if hard casted (although some still give the caster an extra turn), therefore you don't sac 6, and there are about a dozen copy effects which would cause Emrakul to be destroyed, as well as maybe 100 ways to wipe the board or cause him to be sacrificed if he is not hardcasted.
(Multiplayer)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
WUBSharuum the Hegemon
(American 1v1)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
WUGDerevi
...GG Emrakul player. He just sped up a game that would otherwise have taken a few more hours to decide after a badly timed wrath.
Good deckbuilding isn't about having an answer to every situation, its about being prepared. The best ways of dealing with Emrakul are cards that deal with the problem before its a problem - Jester's Cap is a worthwhile anti-combo measure, as is Sadistic Sacrament. Seal of Doom is able to hit Emmy and can be recurred with Sun Titan, which is awesome.
If Emrakul is rampant, a card that said "Each player sacrifices an Emrakul" would be an amazing utility card. If Emrakul is not rampant, ganging up on the one guy who has it is an efficient answer.
That said, I'm in the "complain about Emrakul" thread and there's always gonna be one card that everyone hates. It's like a thing, isn't it? Perish the thought that we're ever satisfied with this game
*EDIT - Oh, rhythmguy, your wild beats and unrestrained rhythm were too fast for me. ^.^
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This is the best way to deal with emrakul in my opinion. Having an icy manipulator isn't. If i can estimate i'm casting emmy soon, i'm naturalize-ing it. Same goes for a disk, and every other permanent that can stop him. Naturally if everyone ran hard control, it would be nothing short of a wrath to clear the board before emmy hits. But lets be realistic, you're not always going to have that board position. I know the 50 card challenge was stupid because there aren't 50 cards.
Probably, but emrakul is the biggest pain in everyone's rear end. Our playgroup has banned him, and our games are truly more fun. The only reason i argue here is because statements like
"he's not that big of a deal" "run answers" "wrath of god"
If emrakul isn't a big deal, then you should never lose a game, since you're capable of controlling the most devastating creature in all of magic. It's hard to imagine being so responsive, so precise in your answers - that you'd lose to any other card(s)
To be honest I rarely do lose a game when I'm running one of my good decks, but when I do lose it's to multiple cards and table politics, not one single bomb.
as far as your post above, get real. if the field is completely clear, then you're telling me mr. emrakul cast him from...15 lands?
even if that somehow happened, you'd ostensibly have a similarly huge number of lands and could afford to sacrifice them, then retaliate on your next turn. it's been established that the only time emrakul is truly devastating is early in the game, in which case it's pretty impossible for emmy to get hardcast after a complete sweeper. If giving you a perfectly reasonably sized list of otherwise-good permanents that easily dispatch emrakul at relatively early stages of the game isn't enough to please you, then i don't know what you want.
be honest, how many answers to emrakul do you have in the deck you use the most?
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I'd rather lose to Emrakul then make my deck worse by adding in narrow cards that only have the purpose of hosing him. I use the word hosing lightly, because even if you trade a removal for him, he's still Time Walked you and likely shuffled back into your opponent's deck.
Also, just because it hasn't been banned yet doesn't mean it's not on the chopping block.
like I said, there are plenty of cards that deal with him and are also very playable in general. you don't have to weaken your deck at all. permanent-based removal is good in EDH anyway, although of course instants also have an important part to play. it just isn't usually in dealing with emrakul.
I'm not saying you need to pack your deck with them, but there are so many good cards that just HAPPEN to hose emrakul that I would assume the average deck has at LEAST 5-10 ways to kill him. maybe you don't have one available right away, but someone at the table ought to.
admittedly most of the good ones that I'm aware of are in white, blue, and black...but red and, to a lesser extent, green, were always supbar in EDH anyway.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
My two favorite answers to Emrakul are Mindbreak Trap and Duplicant. I think I have to give the nod to Duplicant because it can remove most pesky creatures for good (assuming they aren't the general).
well, except that duplicant can't be used until the turn after emrakul. but in a multiplayer game the odds aren't that great of being attacked by emrakul first, so it's usually fine. besides a few unusual circumstances, though, i don't see why it's any more versatile at removal than swords to plowshares (emrakul of course being one of those unusual circumstances).
anyway, if it will actually satisfy people i'll make a list of 50 cards that deal with emrakul before he can even attack, and probably most of them will be viable outside of emrakul-removal situations. I kinda get the feeling that people are going to keep whining anyway, though. But if anyone reading this just wants a how-to on removing emrakul, i'll start sorting through cards.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Even practical EDH cards like Cryptic Command or Rout can only keep him tapped down / destroyed for so long.
Emrakul is a "answer in hand or lose" card. It's idiotic, silly, and trying to defend it is too. Like what i said before- if you can consistently deal with emrakul, then you should have no problem winning every single game against your opponents- regardless of their deck. They seem to never run answers to your answers, counterspells, and i guess just run lands and emrakul. Saying it's 'not a big deal' just translates to ignorance to me.
Please do- i'd love to see 50 instant speed removals for emrakul.