So I'm making a list of the top counters in order from most to least playable. Here's what I got so far... (I know the list is very incomplete & is certainly debatable)
Arcane Denial is insane, largely because you can counter your own spells and draw 3 cards. After they've done something to negate the effect of the original spell cast anyway.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
So if I were to say "you're a complete douchebag who has his head up his ass so far he's using his own eyeballs as glasses," you'd simply shrug it off?
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Venser is potent enough but I didn't include him since he's not technically a counter. Mystic Snake & Voidslime I didn't include because this is mainly just an assumption of being able to only play blue. I'll definitely add Arcane Denial to the list. Power Sink seems solid but I have no idea where to put it at.
remand is junk in EDH. Force of will and pact of negation too. in multiplayer games they cost too much and effect is to bad.
Bect counters are: Mana drain, Cryptic command and hinder.
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Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
To be honest, I can't afford it... and I don't like to proxy. If you have it, great.
Mana Drain
To be honest, I can't afford it... and I don't like to proxy. If you have it, great.
Desertion
Not a bad counterspell but I guess it doesn't really suit my Azami deck. I rather have a threat in this 5 mana slot but that's probably just me. As a general rule, at 5 mana, I want something that could twist the board position to my favour . This doesn't do it consistently in my meta -- which is my only grouse, I guess. Still a solid counterspell.
Draining Whelk
A good counterspell that dodges Gaddock Teeg. Somehow, it feels unnecessary though. When I used it, I was rarely ever interested in making use of the resulting whelk.
Declaration of Naught
Doesn't seem impressive in my meta.
Spelljack
Again, unimpressive for an incredible amount of mana.
Forbid
I rarely ever used the buyback.
Faerie Trickery
Nice but I have quite a few changelings and faeries in my meta (Oona is one of the generals in my meta).
The idea that Force of Will is junk is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. The ability to tap out and still stop a game winning combo is huge. I would argue that Pact of Negation is weak, certainly weaker then where it is ranked in the OP, but its not Force.
venser can save your ☺☺☺☺, or get rid of his ☺☺☺☺ he snuck in. Or time walk youself with a 2/2 body early game. Good tempo, just a good card, he saves your things, just dont forget that, save your sower of temptation or switch a target or w.e. Hes too versitile to be bad...
Lets see...
Ones that I find are great that haven't been mentioned: commandeer - Being able to deny your opponent of his turn 1 top is worth three cards, I think, and hard casting it is not difficult at all when you are draw-go and get into the late game. time stop - Easily the most versatile counterspell EVER. It counters ANYTHING, and can save your ass in combat too. overwhelming intellect - After a wrath, its like shopping. Somebody WILL play a big dude, and you WILL draw ~8 cards from it. decree of silence - It's a good wincon that locks out the game long enough for you to win, and its also a decent counterspell for the mid-game.
I have a deck that runs only the really big counterspells, and its great because all I have to do is get to six mana to make a bomby play.
So I'm making a list of the top counters in order from most to least playable. Here's what I got so far... (I know the list is very incomplete & is certainly debatable)
My top 20 list would look something like this in best to worst order. This list excludes Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, the good non-blue counters (Voidslime & Mystic Snake) and Stifle effects (Trickbind would definitely make my list) which do technically say they counter but I assume we are just going for stuff that counters spells.
remand is junk in EDH. Force of will and pact of negation too. in multiplayer games they cost too much and effect is to bad.
Bect counters are: Mana drain, Cryptic command and hinder.
So, you'd rather lose to infinite combo turn 3 after you tapped out for a mana artifact or countered another one, than you know.. Stop the combo and have a shot at winning?
You might have a case with Remand, but FoW and PoN are two awesome counterspells and pretty much necessary in any blue EDH deck ever. If you disagree, your playgroup has probably an effective banned list eight times longer than the real one and anyone who does anything to win is disallowed to play in the next game. Really.
The bottom line is: You cannot cast Cancel when you are tapped out. You can cast Force of Will.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Meh, I think Remand is fine. You can remand your own spells to protect them while still getting rid of a counter (I can't tell you how many times I've destroyed a Forbid like this) and with all the huge CMC spells floating around it can occasionally read "Target player skips their turn".
The thing about multiplayer is that counterspells aren't really a viable strategy in and off themselves. You simply can't proactively counter enough of everything for it to be powerful.
Which counterspells are good depends on what you're using them for. Are they for stopping hard-to-answer threats? Protecting your big creatures/combo pieces? Disrupting your opponents long enough to get set up?
Personally, I don't much like Force of Will. Free counters are nice, but card disadvantage is killer in multiplayer. You're already setting yourself behind every time you 1-for-1 and opponent. It might belong on the list somewhere for combo decks that need to protect themselves, but it certainly doesn't belong at the top.
I use Dream Fracture as one of my go-to EDH counterspells, since it doesn't set you back in cards the way many do. It leaves you and your victim even on cards, rather than setting you both back from the rest of the table.
Traumatic Visions is another card that I feel is somewhat underated. Five is a lot to pay for a hard counter, but the ability to fix your mana in the early game can be critical.
Wow, I forgot about Traumatic Visions! Its great because you can treat it like a land in terms of deckspace, assuming you haven't already spread your nonland mana sources too thick.
Similarly, my philosophy on multiplayer counterspells is that they should do more than simply answer a threat. There are plenty of large counterspells that either create threats (spelljack and similar), or simply throw you ahead of everybody else to an insane degree (overwhelming intellect).
You should definitely include venser, he is a counter, even if only putting it off temporarily. Your logic fails completely if you're going to include remand but not venser.
So if I were to say "you're a complete douchebag who has his head up his ass so far he's using his own eyeballs as glasses," you'd simply shrug it off?
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If "cancel" is on here, then we should definitely have Silumgar Sorcerer here. He cost three mana, has flash, and can instantly exploit himself to counter a spell... or you could use him as a creature. Or both with Inalla... How is that not WAY better?
these are the ones that have the most impact on my games, be it surprise factor, tons of mana, rattlesnakery, card draw, abuseability or versatility... these are the ones that stand out the most
the rest all kinda just feel like the same thing to me, so its just a matter of what cmc you want them at for maximum effectiveness. sure things like remand or memory lapse are good for stalling and giving the rest of the table a chance to bully someone... but sometimes they just delay the inevitable. stuff like counterspell is always solid but its singular mode with no additional benefits keeps it from being omg amazing, and then there's mana leak type ones which are also great... but sometimes do nothing when you need them to do ANYTHING.
If "cancel" is on here, then we should definitely have Silumgar Sorcerer here. He cost three mana, has flash, and can instantly exploit himself to counter a spell... or you could use him as a creature. Or both with Inalla... How is that not WAY better?
Hey, Silumgar Sorcerer is probably not on the list because it didn't exist in 2010, when this thread was originally started.
Also, the sorcerer only counters creature spells. Still a good card though!
Granted, Commit's a little bit out of the box from a hard counter, but it's even better in its own way, since it literally removes the spell from the stack, thus getting by uncounterablespells. I would seriously say it deserves high-tier consideration, even at 4 CMC.
While this is a huge necro i still have to throw Muddle the Mixture into the ring as my favorite counter of all times (sorry Beyoncé). It never fails to amaze me, neither as a tutor, nor as a Counterspell.
Might just be me, but i usually like the modes of Insidious Will more than the ones of Cryptic Command, since i see it being played like a Dismiss 95% of the time. Plus, the mana requirements are less akward.
While neither a top not counter or cantrip Supreme Will is nearly always handy.
This list is in definite need of a revamp. Since 2010:
- The power of the format has increased significantly, with explosive new commanders and bone-rattling new threats emerging at every turn. "Answers" that cost 5+ mana are significantly harder to cram into a list and as a result I think Desertion, Spelljack, and Draining Whelk are much worse now than they were at the dawn of EDH when battlecruiser durdle machines walked the earth.
- The "Tuck" rule is no more, and as a result Hinder is just a worse Dissipate/Void Shatter/Faerie Trickery most of the time; it's probably not even in the top 20 anymore.
- This list lacks a few really obscure old cards (Arcane Denial most significantly) that have gained a lot of traction with EDH players due to their incredible efficiency. Efficiency is now key in answer cards and I would also argue for Negates place in the top 20, certainly over and above more niche cards like Pact of Negation (only really great in hard-core combo decks), Rewind (only great if you are abusing spellslinger effects), Forbid (needs a very specific and strong draw or graveyard engine to not just be a glorified Cancel), Remand (only great in combo or extremely aggressive decks, but not the kind of card I'd run in any old blue deck), and Cancel (just not enough value even in 40 Counters.dec lists).
You forgot venser, shaper savant
Is this limited to monoblue, because mystic snake and voidslime could definitely be on there.
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Currently 62/265 cards.
Bect counters are: Mana drain, Cryptic command and hinder.
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
Counterspells mentioned that it doesn't run: -
The "counterspells" that I do run are: -
Force is incredible.
[rect=360,100,444,144]http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=230093[/rect]
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Ones that I find are great that haven't been mentioned:
commandeer - Being able to deny your opponent of his turn 1 top is worth three cards, I think, and hard casting it is not difficult at all when you are draw-go and get into the late game.
time stop - Easily the most versatile counterspell EVER. It counters ANYTHING, and can save your ass in combat too.
overwhelming intellect - After a wrath, its like shopping. Somebody WILL play a big dude, and you WILL draw ~8 cards from it.
decree of silence - It's a good wincon that locks out the game long enough for you to win, and its also a decent counterspell for the mid-game.
I have a deck that runs only the really big counterspells, and its great because all I have to do is get to six mana to make a bomby play.
My top 20 list would look something like this in best to worst order. This list excludes Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, the good non-blue counters (Voidslime & Mystic Snake) and Stifle effects (Trickbind would definitely make my list) which do technically say they counter but I assume we are just going for stuff that counters spells.
So, you'd rather lose to infinite combo turn 3 after you tapped out for a mana artifact or countered another one, than you know.. Stop the combo and have a shot at winning?
You might have a case with Remand, but FoW and PoN are two awesome counterspells and pretty much necessary in any blue EDH deck ever. If you disagree, your playgroup has probably an effective banned list eight times longer than the real one and anyone who does anything to win is disallowed to play in the next game. Really.
The bottom line is: You cannot cast Cancel when you are tapped out. You can cast Force of Will.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Which counterspells are good depends on what you're using them for. Are they for stopping hard-to-answer threats? Protecting your big creatures/combo pieces? Disrupting your opponents long enough to get set up?
Personally, I don't much like Force of Will. Free counters are nice, but card disadvantage is killer in multiplayer. You're already setting yourself behind every time you 1-for-1 and opponent. It might belong on the list somewhere for combo decks that need to protect themselves, but it certainly doesn't belong at the top.
I use Dream Fracture as one of my go-to EDH counterspells, since it doesn't set you back in cards the way many do. It leaves you and your victim even on cards, rather than setting you both back from the rest of the table.
Traumatic Visions is another card that I feel is somewhat underated. Five is a lot to pay for a hard counter, but the ability to fix your mana in the early game can be critical.
Similarly, my philosophy on multiplayer counterspells is that they should do more than simply answer a threat. There are plenty of large counterspells that either create threats (spelljack and similar), or simply throw you ahead of everybody else to an insane degree (overwhelming intellect).
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
Currently 62/265 cards.
force of will
mana drain
venser shaper savant
glen-elendra archmage
cryptic command
arcane denial
rewind
these are the ones that have the most impact on my games, be it surprise factor, tons of mana, rattlesnakery, card draw, abuseability or versatility... these are the ones that stand out the most
the rest all kinda just feel like the same thing to me, so its just a matter of what cmc you want them at for maximum effectiveness. sure things like remand or memory lapse are good for stalling and giving the rest of the table a chance to bully someone... but sometimes they just delay the inevitable. stuff like counterspell is always solid but its singular mode with no additional benefits keeps it from being omg amazing, and then there's mana leak type ones which are also great... but sometimes do nothing when you need them to do ANYTHING.
Hey, Silumgar Sorcerer is probably not on the list because it didn't exist in 2010, when this thread was originally started.
Also, the sorcerer only counters creature spells. Still a good card though!
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
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Granted, Commit's a little bit out of the box from a hard counter, but it's even better in its own way, since it literally removes the spell from the stack, thus getting by uncounterable spells. I would seriously say it deserves high-tier consideration, even at 4 CMC.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Void Shatter as a functional reprint of Dissipate that even gets around Iona, Shield of Emeria's limitation is certainly in my books.
Might just be me, but i usually like the modes of Insidious Will more than the ones of Cryptic Command, since i see it being played like a Dismiss 95% of the time. Plus, the mana requirements are less akward.
While neither a top not counter or cantrip Supreme Will is nearly always handy.
Honorable mention: A well timed Summary Dismissal is just nuts, in some cases even better than Disallow. A friend of mine who plays Rashmi, Eternities Crafter hates it with a passion.
- The power of the format has increased significantly, with explosive new commanders and bone-rattling new threats emerging at every turn. "Answers" that cost 5+ mana are significantly harder to cram into a list and as a result I think Desertion, Spelljack, and Draining Whelk are much worse now than they were at the dawn of EDH when battlecruiser durdle machines walked the earth.
- The "Tuck" rule is no more, and as a result Hinder is just a worse Dissipate/Void Shatter/Faerie Trickery most of the time; it's probably not even in the top 20 anymore.
- This list lacks a few really obscure old cards (Arcane Denial most significantly) that have gained a lot of traction with EDH players due to their incredible efficiency. Efficiency is now key in answer cards and I would also argue for Negates place in the top 20, certainly over and above more niche cards like Pact of Negation (only really great in hard-core combo decks), Rewind (only great if you are abusing spellslinger effects), Forbid (needs a very specific and strong draw or graveyard engine to not just be a glorified Cancel), Remand (only great in combo or extremely aggressive decks, but not the kind of card I'd run in any old blue deck), and Cancel (just not enough value even in 40 Counters.dec lists).
- Even with WotC disapporiving of and watering down countermagic in Standard-legal sets, we've seen a handful of new powerful staples appear such as Swan Song, Disallow, Mystic Confluence, and Supreme Will. While these don't unseat the top 5 (which I would say in no special order are Mana Drain, Force of Will, Counterspell, Arcane Denial, and Cryptic Command) they fill in the top 10 and 20 for sure.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
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GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
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