Yawgmoth's Will should go. I mean, this thing is legal? Honestly? 2B, cheat until end of turn is legal?
Magister Sphinx and the new walker, Sorin Markov, are probably questionable for the 10 life set. Sphinx is in color for tutoring and reanimation, and is an artifact and a creature. So annoying. A 6 mana sorcery that smacks somebody for 20-30 and sticks around isn't cool. A creature you can quickly tutor and reanimate to put someone into the danger zone isn't good, it totally negates the entire point of the high starting life totals.
Yawgmoth's Will is cheating? What is your reasoning behind this?.
Almost all edh decks play some form of graveyard hate (In most cases Relic of Progenitus - subnote Should that card be banned as well? 1 mana artifacts that every deck can play seem to be the targets of proposed banning lately) Find a way to simply make the player waste the three mana, OR find ways so the spells they cast don't get the desired effect.
Sphinx hate is dumb. It is very limited in what decks can run it, and it isn't a part of any combo (that I am aware of). He is big, he is bad, and his ability is cool, but most of the time, the player casting the sphinx is gonna put an opponent causing him/her the most problems at ten life.
The Planeswalker, will be fine. Those dorks are easy to kill in edh.
Oh and I agree with all the posters claiming the general rule should be revised just a bit so Ryhs The Exiled and Memnarch can be played as generals.
I think the bonuses from Sol Ring and Mana Crypt is somewhat countered in a multiplayer game, but in single player those cards are just devastating and almost auto-win. I'm not sure a separate banned list for 1v1 is needed, but a lot of people play EDH that way, and the games can be so fluky because one person opens with ring or crypt.
In multiplayer, the tempo boost you get from Sol Ring/Crypt is pretty ridiculous when you're playing a general that can abuse it:
Read that tournament report. crz87 playing with Arcum Dagsson gets a Mana Crypt out on turn 1 followed by Dagsson on turn 2. From there, he activates Dagsson turn 3 and begins to assemble his prison combo with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire. All 5 of his other opponents have not done anything relevant in these early turns, while crz87 as already begun to combo off on turn 3 to lock down the board. Eventually he goes infinite with Power Artifact + Grim Monolith, casts Time Stretch soon after, and the win in elementary with infinite draw power and infinite mana.
That would have never happened without the first turn Mana Crypt, and I have a feeling that crz87 would have been hated out of the table without that kind of acceleration to outspeed everyone else and get his deck going. ****, even crz87 himself admits that Mana Crypt is grossly powerful and agrees it should be banned.
NO.. Just NO. Gifts Ungiven was used in too many broken combos to EVER justify its unbanning. The only way you could justify its unbanning is to ban ALL of the broken 4 piece combos you can achieve with it. And even then it really isn't worth it.
Oh, I know. Looking at it and seeing the number of infinite combos people can use if they can only piece them together, I can see quite obviously why it is banned. It's too good. Doesn't change that I have this shiny new one I'd love to play with.
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I would also like to see the rules tweaked to allow generals like rhys the exiled and Memnarch. Just say that a deck may only include the colors in your general's mana cost and the colors represented in your general's rules text. Voila.
The whole Memnarch/Bosh, Iron Golem/Rhys the Exiled thing should be priority number 1 for the unofficial powers that be. It would be an easy fix (heck, even specifying rules exceptions on a card-by-card basis would be concise, albeit inelegant) and would promote deckbuilding diversity.
While we're at it, I think you should be able to play Phage, the Untouchable as a general and not lose the game. She gets inadvertently hosed by EDH rules just as badly as Memnarch, right?
Metalworker being banned was unreasonable. I'd argue that Rofellos as a general is FAR more powerful. Both require you to more or less build around them. Unban the Metalworker, yo.
On the Sol Ring/Mana Crypt issue, I'm torn. On one hand,
1. In a duel, no one will argue that these cards can easily provide an early insurmountable advantage (aka win the game)
2. Auto-includes somewhat stifle deckbuilding creativity
On the other hand,
1. The early advantage is usually easily hated out in multiplayer
2. Banning cards in a casual format is always questionable
3. Everyone who paid money for their Sol Ring and Mana Vault will be, well, just down on their luck.
Read that tournament report. crz87 playing with Arcum Dagsson gets a Mana Crypt out on turn 1 followed by Dagsson on turn 2. From there, he activates Dagsson turn 3 and begins to assemble his prison combo with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire. All 5 of his other opponents have not done anything relevant in these early turns, while crz87 as already begun to combo off on turn 3 to lock down the board. Eventually he goes infinite with Power Artifact + Grim Monolith, casts Time Stretch soon after, and the win in elementary with infinite draw power and infinite mana.
That would have never happened without the first turn Mana Crypt, and I have a feeling that crz87 would have been hated out of the table without that kind of acceleration to outspeed everyone else and get his deck going. ****, even crz87 himself admits that Mana Crypt is grossly powerful and agrees it should be banned.
He also drew extremely well, drawing into both Greaves and Time Stretch.
And that would not happen every single game. You just found a multiplayer tournament report to support your arguement.
The fact is, this is a singleton format, and things like that do no happen all that often.
The odds are against the banning of Mana Crypt and Sol Ring.
Relic of Prog should not be banned. It's a solution against decks that recur the graveyard every turn. It fits in any deck because WotC wanted it to fit in any deck.
Is this not the same for basically any format though?
I was specifically referring to whether Relic of Prog was busted. And explained it is not the "end-all" solution to graveyards because it wasn't like every color has a way of getting this in their hand and just ruining the day forever.
Even if it were, it's still a countermeasure. Why would you ban a countermeasure?
Of all those, Mishra's Workshop is the only one which would deserve banning.
Dark Ritual isn't that exploitable in this format; Tolarian Academy requires building around; but Mishra's Workshop means you get an irreconcilable tempo boost with no effort or commitment.
I wouldn't be adverse to banning Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. They are completely beyond the realm of the power curve, putting a luck swing into a game it doesn't need.
Sundering Titan has been suggested by others. (I don't have an opinion on that one yet though.)
I don't think Sundering Titan is ban worthy. If you ban the main offenders (Sol Ring, Crypt and Mishra's Workshop), this card would be what it's supposed to be: slow but worth it.
Even then, against monocolored decks its at best a 7/10 that kills two lands, and against decks with more colors it may not even do that if you get the right nonbasics.
Read that tournament report. crz87 playing with Arcum Dagsson gets a Mana Crypt out on turn 1 followed by Dagsson on turn 2. From there, he activates Dagsson turn 3 and begins to assemble his prison combo with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire. All 5 of his other opponents have not done anything relevant in these early turns, while crz87 as already begun to combo off on turn 3 to lock down the board. Eventually he goes infinite with Power Artifact + Grim Monolith, casts Time Stretch soon after, and the win in elementary with infinite draw power and infinite mana.
That would have never happened without the first turn Mana Crypt, and I have a feeling that crz87 would have been hated out of the table without that kind of acceleration to outspeed everyone else and get his deck going. ****, even crz87 himself admits that Mana Crypt is grossly powerful and agrees it should be banned.
I've followed that thread closely, and have replies in there. I read that report, and I understand that things like that can happen, but that opening is quite an anomaly. Sure, it makes up some percentage of multiplayer games, but not enough to be banned. I'm sure Jitte could do the same thing. "Wow, he got an early Jitte down and it just WRECKED us." The effect in multiplayer however is much strong. Plus… Arcum is a special deck, and probably one of few in which can go super-explosive like that.
I don't think Sundering Titan is ban worthy. If you ban the main offenders (Sol Ring, Crypt and Mishra's Workshop), this card would be what it's supposed to be: slow but worth it.
Even then, against monocolored decks its at best a 7/10 that kills two lands, and against decks with more colors it may not even do that if you get the right nonbasics.
True, but then again, the Ring, Crypt, Workshop are what lets you come back from a Sundering Titan. I suppose there are other artifact mana sources, but those definitely help. A little bit of a catch-22.
I would be absolutely livid if they banned Mana Drain. For one, it is nowhere near banworthy. Why? Because unlike Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, it does not give you a continuous tempo advantage. You only get the boost for 1 turn, and sure you can do some awful things with that mana, but you cannot typically win based on that card alone (you need a busted hand to begin with that can utilize colorless mana on that turn). In my experience more often than not Mana Drain = Counterspell + colorless Dark Ritual on your next turn, which is still fantastic, but no one is complaining about Counterspell or Dark Ritual being overwhelmingly busted by themselves. In the late game it can be much more than that, but don't be so surprised to see it when you see UU open on the other side of the table. Secondly, I have one in my Momir Vig deck and it would pain me to know that $120 was all for nothing (perhaps I am a bit biased with this one, though i do feel as though my points are sufficiently valid).
My local group has already banned Survival because of yours truly, so that one wouldn't bother me so much even though I love love love that card. It is however, pretty disgusting to play against if the deck has ways of abusing it to the fullest.
Sol Ring / Mana Crypt are powerful auto-includes, but they do not alter our multiplayer games too much to be honest. I'd be fine with a banning but I don't think that's necessary.
We did ban Top in our playgroup though. It has a strong effect, is nearly indestructible and eats a lot of time. I don't think it's overpowered either and I'm not sure if an (un)official banning would be appropriate, but for us it was an annoyance-factor, so we gave it the axe.
Rofellos is the only card that clearly should get the axe.
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We did ban Top in our playgroup though. It has a strong effect, is nearly indestructible and eats a lot of time. I don't think it's overpowered either and I'm not sure if an (un)official banning would be appropriate, but for us it was an annoyance-factor, so we gave it the axe.
I am 100% in agreement. There is nothing worse than watching someone top, then draw, then top again, then cast a draw spell, then top again. I have no problem with the power level of the card either, I just want all the hours of my life back that slow topping folks have taken from me.
No other changes seem necessary, for every other card there seems to be responses, especially in multiplayer.
The list is fine. Nothing else needs to be banned. Some of the posts make me question whether or not the people even have a clue as to what edh even is. How could you want to ban top? It's not like every deck is locking down the game with counterbalance. What are you even thinking? Mana crypt and sol ring are fine. Even if you have both in your opening hand the odds that you can "go off" in a deck with 100 one ofs is extreemly unlikely and if you can do that then you're a jerk and no one will play with you anyway.
I am 100% in agreement. There is nothing worse than watching someone top, then draw, then top again, then cast a draw spell, then top again. I have no problem with the power level of the card either, I just want all the hours of my life back that slow topping folks have taken from me.
No other changes seem necessary, for every other card there seems to be responses, especially in multiplayer.
I don't know if the people in your playgroup are developmentally challenged or what, but I routinely play 9 person games of edh and top never causes any problem timewise even when half the people playing have them out.
I don't know if the people in your playgroup are developmentally challenged
This could be the problem...
But from what I hear, other people are having the same issues in their groups.
I wish there were either a consensus on how to go about using the Top in a multiplayer game without dragging the whole show to a standstill or ban the damn thing.
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Yawgmoth's Will is cheating? What is your reasoning behind this?.
Almost all edh decks play some form of graveyard hate (In most cases Relic of Progenitus - subnote Should that card be banned as well? 1 mana artifacts that every deck can play seem to be the targets of proposed banning lately) Find a way to simply make the player waste the three mana, OR find ways so the spells they cast don't get the desired effect.
Sphinx hate is dumb. It is very limited in what decks can run it, and it isn't a part of any combo (that I am aware of). He is big, he is bad, and his ability is cool, but most of the time, the player casting the sphinx is gonna put an opponent causing him/her the most problems at ten life.
The Planeswalker, will be fine. Those dorks are easy to kill in edh.
Oh and I agree with all the posters claiming the general rule should be revised just a bit so Ryhs The Exiled and Memnarch can be played as generals.
In multiplayer, the tempo boost you get from Sol Ring/Crypt is pretty ridiculous when you're playing a general that can abuse it:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4209673&postcount=87
Read that tournament report. crz87 playing with Arcum Dagsson gets a Mana Crypt out on turn 1 followed by Dagsson on turn 2. From there, he activates Dagsson turn 3 and begins to assemble his prison combo with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire. All 5 of his other opponents have not done anything relevant in these early turns, while crz87 as already begun to combo off on turn 3 to lock down the board. Eventually he goes infinite with Power Artifact + Grim Monolith, casts Time Stretch soon after, and the win in elementary with infinite draw power and infinite mana.
That would have never happened without the first turn Mana Crypt, and I have a feeling that crz87 would have been hated out of the table without that kind of acceleration to outspeed everyone else and get his deck going. ****, even crz87 himself admits that Mana Crypt is grossly powerful and agrees it should be banned.
Oh, I know. Looking at it and seeing the number of infinite combos people can use if they can only piece them together, I can see quite obviously why it is banned. It's too good. Doesn't change that I have this shiny new one I'd love to play with.
BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended:
RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy:
RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
EDH:
U Arcum Dagsson U //// WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion BW //// UR Jhoira of the Ghitu RU
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The whole Memnarch/Bosh, Iron Golem/Rhys the Exiled thing should be priority number 1 for the unofficial powers that be. It would be an easy fix (heck, even specifying rules exceptions on a card-by-card basis would be concise, albeit inelegant) and would promote deckbuilding diversity.
While we're at it, I think you should be able to play Phage, the Untouchable as a general and not lose the game. She gets inadvertently hosed by EDH rules just as badly as Memnarch, right?
Metalworker being banned was unreasonable. I'd argue that Rofellos as a general is FAR more powerful. Both require you to more or less build around them. Unban the Metalworker, yo.
On the Sol Ring/Mana Crypt issue, I'm torn. On one hand,
1. In a duel, no one will argue that these cards can easily provide an early insurmountable advantage (aka win the game)
2. Auto-includes somewhat stifle deckbuilding creativity
On the other hand,
1. The early advantage is usually easily hated out in multiplayer
2. Banning cards in a casual format is always questionable
3. Everyone who paid money for their Sol Ring and Mana Vault will be, well, just down on their luck.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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He also drew extremely well, drawing into both Greaves and Time Stretch.
And that would not happen every single game. You just found a multiplayer tournament report to support your arguement.
The fact is, this is a singleton format, and things like that do no happen all that often.
The odds are against the banning of Mana Crypt and Sol Ring.
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NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Trust me, they are not going down in price. If they get banned and people need to get rid of them, they'll sell well enough.
I would like to see unbanned:
- Generals with different colors in their text box (Rhys the Exiled)
I would like to see banned:
- Duel-imbalance cards such as Necropotence, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain
- Rofellos
- Survival of the Fittest
Also, I would like some restriction on tutor effects but that's just me.
Furthermore, not every deck can tutor for it.
Is this not the same for basically any format though?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Wait, maybe we should ban "combos"!.....or counterspells!.......or blue cards!......or artifacts!.....
.......or we could just run answers........
I was specifically referring to whether Relic of Prog was busted. And explained it is not the "end-all" solution to graveyards because it wasn't like every color has a way of getting this in their hand and just ruining the day forever.
Even if it were, it's still a countermeasure. Why would you ban a countermeasure?
But I mean, why would you ban mana accel?
Dark Ritual?
Tolerian Academy?
Mishra's Workshop?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Dark Ritual isn't that exploitable in this format; Tolarian Academy requires building around; but Mishra's Workshop means you get an irreconcilable tempo boost with no effort or commitment.
I wouldn't be adverse to banning Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. They are completely beyond the realm of the power curve, putting a luck swing into a game it doesn't need.
Sundering Titan has been suggested by others. (I don't have an opinion on that one yet though.)
I haven't seen Tainted Pact mentioned. Pact in many decks is better than Ancestoral Recall.
I also think Skullclamp is a ridiculously overpowered, but not ban worthy.
Even then, against monocolored decks its at best a 7/10 that kills two lands, and against decks with more colors it may not even do that if you get the right nonbasics.
I've followed that thread closely, and have replies in there. I read that report, and I understand that things like that can happen, but that opening is quite an anomaly. Sure, it makes up some percentage of multiplayer games, but not enough to be banned. I'm sure Jitte could do the same thing. "Wow, he got an early Jitte down and it just WRECKED us." The effect in multiplayer however is much strong. Plus… Arcum is a special deck, and probably one of few in which can go super-explosive like that.
True, but then again, the Ring, Crypt, Workshop are what lets you come back from a Sundering Titan. I suppose there are other artifact mana sources, but those definitely help. A little bit of a catch-22.
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I would be absolutely livid if they banned Mana Drain. For one, it is nowhere near banworthy. Why? Because unlike Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, it does not give you a continuous tempo advantage. You only get the boost for 1 turn, and sure you can do some awful things with that mana, but you cannot typically win based on that card alone (you need a busted hand to begin with that can utilize colorless mana on that turn). In my experience more often than not Mana Drain = Counterspell + colorless Dark Ritual on your next turn, which is still fantastic, but no one is complaining about Counterspell or Dark Ritual being overwhelmingly busted by themselves. In the late game it can be much more than that, but don't be so surprised to see it when you see UU open on the other side of the table. Secondly, I have one in my Momir Vig deck and it would pain me to know that $120 was all for nothing (perhaps I am a bit biased with this one, though i do feel as though my points are sufficiently valid).
My local group has already banned Survival because of yours truly, so that one wouldn't bother me so much even though I love love love that card. It is however, pretty disgusting to play against if the deck has ways of abusing it to the fullest.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
We did ban Top in our playgroup though. It has a strong effect, is nearly indestructible and eats a lot of time. I don't think it's overpowered either and I'm not sure if an (un)official banning would be appropriate, but for us it was an annoyance-factor, so we gave it the axe.
Rofellos is the only card that clearly should get the axe.
Or Survival if the deck is built to abuse it.
C'mon, gimme a break.
Especially in a singleton format, it's basically complaining that your opponent got lucky in every match.
Do they break the format? No.
There not even on the watched list, and there is a reason for that.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I am 100% in agreement. There is nothing worse than watching someone top, then draw, then top again, then cast a draw spell, then top again. I have no problem with the power level of the card either, I just want all the hours of my life back that slow topping folks have taken from me.
No other changes seem necessary, for every other card there seems to be responses, especially in multiplayer.
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
This. You have roughly a 7% chance of drawing any of these cards in your opening hand, not exactly consistent. Leave the banned list alone.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I don't know if the people in your playgroup are developmentally challenged or what, but I routinely play 9 person games of edh and top never causes any problem timewise even when half the people playing have them out.
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
This could be the problem...
But from what I hear, other people are having the same issues in their groups.
I wish there were either a consensus on how to go about using the Top in a multiplayer game without dragging the whole show to a standstill or ban the damn thing.