or you could simply Hinder her when she gets played (assuming she is the general)... or if your not a blue player, you could well... maybe not. Still, I only forsee a real problem with her in 1v1 play, not in multi-player. At least not unless all of your opponents in multi-player are playing decks of the same mono-color.
You have to know as well as I do that countering a card makes no difference on whether or not it should be banned. Every single card on the ban list can be countered, so being able to counter something is obviously not a valid option.
Secondly... she might not immediately win you the game, but she can completely stop mono colored decks in other situations than when the opponents are running the same colored monocolor decks. (EG, You play Emeria in a game involving a monored player, a blue/black player, and a white/green player, why would either of them ever want to kill Emeria?)Provided you don't do something like swing at them with her HUGE body that is (as a 7/7 she is among the 3-hit kill generals, so it IS a possibility)
Point is, she is an I win button against a bunch of decks. Multiplayer games often won't change this. (Not saying they can't but I am saying at least 50% of the time they won't change a thing against monocolor players)
And for the final nail in the coffin, she makes EDH less diverse and fun as a format just by being unbanned, and in a MUCH crazier way than sol ring does. Imagine this, a new player is being introduced to the format and is thinking about picking a general, when someone thats played for a while chimes in and says "Try not to pick a monocolor general, they just roll over and die to Emeria players." If Emeria isn't banned, I expect to see a huge decrease in the number people playing mono-color generals over time.
This lack of diversity is MUCH more intense than, lets say, adding Sol Ring to every deck is. Sure, its a good card, but I don't think anyone here could say its actually format warping. Emeria is.
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Halfdane Sek'Kuar
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Are you actually serious? I know its not cheap, but it will essentially win the game when it comes out against monocolor. How about you tell me what you have out to stop her in a monocolor deck. And how easy it would be to destroy any one of these pieces if she gets out (very likely that a deck using Iona as a general would have sweepers built around abusing her, and OH, look at that, she happens to be in a color that has a CRAPTON of mass destruction spells.)
So really the only argument you have left is that its possible to kill the Iona player before she gets player, and that's a pretty bad argument. (Unless you are talking one on one, but obviously the ban list is for multiplayer)
maybe she will b a hassle for some decks, but bblue decks could careless about her....she would never stick
Blue Warlock, you're still not going to be able to change the fact that Iona costs 9 mana. Even in a slow format like EDH, 9 mana is a ridiculous amount of mana to ramp up to. This gives decks plenty of time to do their thing before Iona hits the table.
In multiplayer games, Iona puts an immediate bullseye on your head. If you lock out one person's mono-colored deck, that doesn't mean the rest of the table is safe. She's a 7/7 flyer, and that means everyone else will be rightfully threatened by her or else suffer being beaten to a pulp.
Iona doesn't even compare to being a busted general like Rofellos, Zur, Dagsson, and Erayo are. I can't even understand justifying a ban for Iona when those above 4 are still perfectly legal in the format.
In multiplayer games, Iona puts an immediate bullseye on your head. If you lock out one person's mono-colored deck, that doesn't mean the rest of the table is safe. She's a 7/7 flyer, and that means everyone else will be rightfully threatened by her or else suffer being beaten to a pulp.
Iona doesn't even compare to being a busted general like Rofellos, Zur, Dagsson, and Erayo are. I can't even understand justifying a ban for Iona when those above 4 are still perfectly legal in the format.
First, you are really not selling me that simply having out a 7/7 paints a giant bullseye on your head. Unless you are a player effected by her ability of course, in which case you are so screwed you can't even fight back. Big creatures are pretty much standard in EDH, so I fail to see any reason everyone would target you instead of any of the other people with fatties.
I will admit that Emeria doesn't compare to being broken in the same way that Zur&Co are, but at the very least removal can still be played on them, and without the aid of other cards (eg. Erayo can be devastating with Arcane Laboratory, but you still have to get the Arcane Lab to make her that crazy). Rofellos still requires fatties in hand, etc. Emeria just requires that you play.... Emeria. Then you lock out any monocolored opponents, which brings me to my biggest point:
THIS CARD IS FORMAT WARPING. MONOCOLORED GENERALS(except Emeria, of course) WILL SEE CONSIDERABLY LESS PLAY.
This is VERY VERY important in my opinion. One card should not stop dozens and dozens of archetypes from being viable in this format.
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Halfdane Sek'Kuar
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Knowing the ruling committee she will get banned, but she has no place on the list. 9 mana is a metric ****ton. And for reference, a metric ****ton is equivalent to 2.47 standard ****tons. The only relevent mono colors decks are all blue. And rofellos, but rofellos will never, ever, ever care about this card.
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"There's no such thing as a good play. There's the right play, then there's the mistake" -Jon Finkel
Iona will be fine I think. She will be good, but not broken. There are, in fact, good answers to her in mono-colored decks, so stop screaming that the sky is falling--Oblivion Stone, Nevinyrral's Disk, and Tawnos's Coffin are all great, versatile cards that do a good job of dealing with her, and they're not even the only options.
Also, she costs so much mana that any mana-denial can be seen as an answer to her. I expect that at least half the time she'll probably never even get played, because her manabase is going to get savagely attacked every game, and the mana-ramping options available in mono-white are fairly limited.
Now, if she has Painter's Servant, that's legitimately pretty nasty, but the aforementioned answers still work well since you can play them beforehand. Besides, there are already much cheaper 2-card combos involving generals, and those haven't been banned or destroyed the format (Rofellos+ Staff of Domination, Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity).
Iona will be a strong EDH card, both within certain decks and as a general, but she is in no way unbeatable or format warping. She's not going to result in a reduction in the number of mono-color decks at all (though I wish she would, there are too many mono-blue decks).
Okay, I've been content to watch this thread go back and forth for a while, but I want to throw my two cents in about Iona.
Iona should not be banned. Banning her is just plain dumb.
My reasoning:
I separate EDH decks into two categories: casual and competitive.
In a competitive deck, especially where EDH tournaments are involved, most every decent deck run will have won or shut down the game before Iona can even be played. For those of you who think that 9 mana is not a high enough cost to warrant her legality in EDH, as a general or otherwise, consider this: What are the odds that she will even make it to play before Zur or Dagsson go off? And aren't there like five different powerful, commonly run, colorless solutions to her? And that's just counting things that aren't already on the board. The only real abuse of her I can think of is Tooth and Nail for her and Painter's Servant, and you'd still require answers in hand to anything threatening that's already on the board. And guess how much T&N costs to entwine? Yep, still at nine mana. She might work with a reanimator build, but she's nowhere near broken enough to be banned.
As far as running her as a general goes, if you think you can run a monocolored deck, whose general costs nine mana, that when played may or may not lock down the game, and beat decks that can combo out or fetch Orb before you get half the mana you need to drop your general, go with my blessing, see just how "unfair" she is.
In a casual scenario, one of two things will inevitably happen: either the people in your playgroup can deal with her, proceed to do so, and things continue as though nothing happened, or they can't, in which case your Iona deck is hated out of the group, because no one wants to play against a general that can successfully shut down the game. Casual is a different boat entirely, because unlike in competitive magic, the people you play against can just say, "Your deck is stupid and cheaty, I'm not gonna play against it." And chances are, if your deck doesn't have solutions for Iona, you probably aren't going to be the player in the color picked by her, so you shouldn't be complaining anyway.
Is she good? Yes, certainly, she's a massive threat with a powerful ability. Would I run her? Probably, I think there's a place for her in my Jenara deck. Is she ban-worthy? Not by a long shot.
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EDH FTW
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
The banned policy does not take into account redundancy. This seems like an odd case where maybe it should.
IMO redundancy is the main problem with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. When in conjunction with Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, etc. Arcum decks generally accelerate faster than green decks do.
I know green decks play those cards too. To me the idea that a green deck will always use the Ring (and Crypt if a player has one) reinforces how imbalanced the Ring is.
Also, I am not saying Vault and Monolith should be banned. They are much more balanced.
Honestly, I'd rather see Metalworker unbanned, and Ring and Crypt banned. At least it's a creature.
I know the powers that be have said they won't ban these cards. But in the future, as we see cards like Iona and Eternity Vessel appear, the issue will need revisiting.
(BTW, I don't think Iona needs banning, at least in multiplayer.)
I agree with Ludd on the Ring/Crypt/Metalworker issue. Metalworker can accelerate much more than Ring or Crypt, but there are two additional limitations on that. First, your deck needs to be built to abuse it. Second, and more importantly, IT DIES TO EVERYTHING. Each of the five colors has eight hundred different answers to it. I mean, really, it's a 2-toughness artifact creature. And it's not like that much acceleration will help any of the really competitive and broken decks win faster.
I don't really think that Iona or Eternity Vessel are going to make much of a difference as far as this issue goes though. I think if decks like Dagsson haven't changed the powers' views on Ring/Crypt, nothing will.
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EDH FTW
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
I don't actually think that Top and Mind's Eye are actually auto includes. I only play Top in my Sisay deck and it isn't actually that good in it. My only problem with top is that it takes forever to play against. Mind's Eye suffers from the same problem as Top. It isn't a focused card. I don't play it in any of my decks including my deck that I only play in multiplayer. It's slow and I have never had the benefit be better than the risk of it dying every time I play it. Roffellos shouldn't be banned. It is very easy to beat the decks that play him. If your EDH deck doesn't run any cheap removal, its your fault for not being able to kill him.
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First, you are really not selling me that simply having out a 7/7 paints a giant bullseye on your head. Unless you are a player effected by her ability of course, in which case you are so screwed you can't even fight back. Big creatures are pretty much standard in EDH, so I fail to see any reason everyone would target you instead of any of the other people with fatties.
Because I have a feeling someone will feel some sympathy for you in getting locked out if Iona is set to your color. Politics and diplomacy are a big factor in multiplayer games.
Also, why would you just do nothing for 8-9 turns and just sit back and let the Iona player ramp up and resolve her uncontested? Instead of just complaining about something, learn how to beat it.
I will admit that Emeria doesn't compare to being broken in the same way that Zur&Co are, but at the very least removal can still be played on them, and without the aid of other cards (eg. Erayo can be devastating with Arcane Laboratory, but you still have to get the Arcane Lab to make her that crazy). Rofellos still requires fatties in hand, etc. Emeria just requires that you play.... Emeria. Then you lock out any monocolored opponents, which brings me to my biggest point:
THIS CARD IS FORMAT WARPING. MONOCOLORED GENERALS(except Emeria, of course) WILL SEE CONSIDERABLY LESS PLAY.
You should really listen to yourself. Iona has been spoiled for just a few days now and already you're screaming for her banning.
Additionally, you say that Rofellos/Zur/Arcum/Erayo aren't broken, yet you're already proclaiming Iona to warp the format?
Why ban a card that isn't broken and/or overcentralizing?
This is VERY VERY important in my opinion. One card should not stop dozens and dozens of archetypes from being viable in this format.
Like Rofellos, Zur, Arcum, Erayo, and other generals don't do just that?
According to your logic, we might as well ban those generals as well.
Maybe I was wrong then. Nobody in my playgroup plays Roffellos, Dagson, Zur, or Erayo. I guess outside of my playgroup these are the only the only decks that matter. If this is the case, I am wrong, and I apologize for raising such a big fuss.
It just seems to me that these generals threaten multiple people, so the entire group would focus on killing them, versus Emeria only targeting one. And in my experience, the only sympathy given to a locked out player like this is just not attacking him. And I will admit that I did not think of another player wrathing the board when Emeria just happened to be hosing someone else, as this happens fairly often.
That being said, there is still a good chance that the powers that be may ban her, as she fits there first banning criteria very well (In EDH you know exactly what colors an opponent is playing, and you also have the ability to make it to turn 9 more frequently)
So yeah, to sum it up. I play in a group full of slower decks, making Emeria much more powerful. I see now that I was wrong and that this is usually how EDH games were played (I thought most games would make it turn 9, if not turn 20+) but I guess in every other playgroup there are people running Arcum/Zur/Rof/Erayo.
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Halfdane Sek'Kuar
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Iona, Shield of Emeria* (One of the spoiled cards in Zendikar) needs to be preemptively banned in my opinion. She completely shuts down monocolor EDH decks, and on top of that is available as a general. All of this just puts her at the top of my list as stupid broken.
I agree with this. I just made my first mono-colored EDH deck and can see this being a problem since the color I'm playing isn't blue.
People keep talking about 9 mana and how she's hard to get out, but it makes me think people have never played this format. There's so much acceleration that if you wanted her out on turn 5 you could get her out. It won't be consistent, but it can happen. Happening once in a 1v1 against a mono colored deck already shows how broken she is.
Vedalken shackles. Or mabye make it so that it can't target generals, i play my decks built around my generals and it is just plain wrong that if i cant counter/kill this 3 cmc card, i lose. To make it worse it is an artifact, so arcane dagsum decks always dig it out first against me, sharrum decks run facbricate, demonic tutor ect and can recur it even if i kill it, and if i can't its game over. It's mainly the fact that it is a colorless artifact that bugs me.
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You have to know as well as I do that countering a card makes no difference on whether or not it should be banned. Every single card on the ban list can be countered, so being able to counter something is obviously not a valid option.
Secondly... she might not immediately win you the game, but she can completely stop mono colored decks in other situations than when the opponents are running the same colored monocolor decks. (EG, You play Emeria in a game involving a monored player, a blue/black player, and a white/green player, why would either of them ever want to kill Emeria?)Provided you don't do something like swing at them with her HUGE body that is (as a 7/7 she is among the 3-hit kill generals, so it IS a possibility)
Point is, she is an I win button against a bunch of decks. Multiplayer games often won't change this. (Not saying they can't but I am saying at least 50% of the time they won't change a thing against monocolor players)
And for the final nail in the coffin, she makes EDH less diverse and fun as a format just by being unbanned, and in a MUCH crazier way than sol ring does. Imagine this, a new player is being introduced to the format and is thinking about picking a general, when someone thats played for a while chimes in and says "Try not to pick a monocolor general, they just roll over and die to Emeria players." If Emeria isn't banned, I expect to see a huge decrease in the number people playing mono-color generals over time.
This lack of diversity is MUCH more intense than, lets say, adding Sol Ring to every deck is. Sure, its a good card, but I don't think anyone here could say its actually format warping. Emeria is.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
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maybe she will b a hassle for some decks, but bblue decks could careless about her....she would never stick
In multiplayer games, Iona puts an immediate bullseye on your head. If you lock out one person's mono-colored deck, that doesn't mean the rest of the table is safe. She's a 7/7 flyer, and that means everyone else will be rightfully threatened by her or else suffer being beaten to a pulp.
Iona doesn't even compare to being a busted general like Rofellos, Zur, Dagsson, and Erayo are. I can't even understand justifying a ban for Iona when those above 4 are still perfectly legal in the format.
First, you are really not selling me that simply having out a 7/7 paints a giant bullseye on your head. Unless you are a player effected by her ability of course, in which case you are so screwed you can't even fight back. Big creatures are pretty much standard in EDH, so I fail to see any reason everyone would target you instead of any of the other people with fatties.
I will admit that Emeria doesn't compare to being broken in the same way that Zur&Co are, but at the very least removal can still be played on them, and without the aid of other cards (eg. Erayo can be devastating with Arcane Laboratory, but you still have to get the Arcane Lab to make her that crazy). Rofellos still requires fatties in hand, etc. Emeria just requires that you play.... Emeria. Then you lock out any monocolored opponents, which brings me to my biggest point:
THIS CARD IS FORMAT WARPING. MONOCOLORED GENERALS(except Emeria, of course) WILL SEE CONSIDERABLY LESS PLAY.
This is VERY VERY important in my opinion. One card should not stop dozens and dozens of archetypes from being viable in this format.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
Also, she costs so much mana that any mana-denial can be seen as an answer to her. I expect that at least half the time she'll probably never even get played, because her manabase is going to get savagely attacked every game, and the mana-ramping options available in mono-white are fairly limited.
Now, if she has Painter's Servant, that's legitimately pretty nasty, but the aforementioned answers still work well since you can play them beforehand. Besides, there are already much cheaper 2-card combos involving generals, and those haven't been banned or destroyed the format (Rofellos+ Staff of Domination, Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity).
Iona will be a strong EDH card, both within certain decks and as a general, but she is in no way unbeatable or format warping. She's not going to result in a reduction in the number of mono-color decks at all (though I wish she would, there are too many mono-blue decks).
Iona should not be banned. Banning her is just plain dumb.
My reasoning:
I separate EDH decks into two categories: casual and competitive.
In a competitive deck, especially where EDH tournaments are involved, most every decent deck run will have won or shut down the game before Iona can even be played. For those of you who think that 9 mana is not a high enough cost to warrant her legality in EDH, as a general or otherwise, consider this: What are the odds that she will even make it to play before Zur or Dagsson go off? And aren't there like five different powerful, commonly run, colorless solutions to her? And that's just counting things that aren't already on the board. The only real abuse of her I can think of is Tooth and Nail for her and Painter's Servant, and you'd still require answers in hand to anything threatening that's already on the board. And guess how much T&N costs to entwine? Yep, still at nine mana. She might work with a reanimator build, but she's nowhere near broken enough to be banned.
As far as running her as a general goes, if you think you can run a monocolored deck, whose general costs nine mana, that when played may or may not lock down the game, and beat decks that can combo out or fetch Orb before you get half the mana you need to drop your general, go with my blessing, see just how "unfair" she is.
In a casual scenario, one of two things will inevitably happen: either the people in your playgroup can deal with her, proceed to do so, and things continue as though nothing happened, or they can't, in which case your Iona deck is hated out of the group, because no one wants to play against a general that can successfully shut down the game. Casual is a different boat entirely, because unlike in competitive magic, the people you play against can just say, "Your deck is stupid and cheaty, I'm not gonna play against it." And chances are, if your deck doesn't have solutions for Iona, you probably aren't going to be the player in the color picked by her, so you shouldn't be complaining anyway.
Is she good? Yes, certainly, she's a massive threat with a powerful ability. Would I run her? Probably, I think there's a place for her in my Jenara deck. Is she ban-worthy? Not by a long shot.
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
IMO redundancy is the main problem with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. When in conjunction with Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, etc. Arcum decks generally accelerate faster than green decks do.
I know green decks play those cards too. To me the idea that a green deck will always use the Ring (and Crypt if a player has one) reinforces how imbalanced the Ring is.
Also, I am not saying Vault and Monolith should be banned. They are much more balanced.
Honestly, I'd rather see Metalworker unbanned, and Ring and Crypt banned. At least it's a creature.
I know the powers that be have said they won't ban these cards. But in the future, as we see cards like Iona and Eternity Vessel appear, the issue will need revisiting.
(BTW, I don't think Iona needs banning, at least in multiplayer.)
I don't really think that Iona or Eternity Vessel are going to make much of a difference as far as this issue goes though. I think if decks like Dagsson haven't changed the powers' views on Ring/Crypt, nothing will.
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
1800+ in Limited
3-0ing after drafting 17 non-basics in Cube
Because I have a feeling someone will feel some sympathy for you in getting locked out if Iona is set to your color. Politics and diplomacy are a big factor in multiplayer games.
Also, why would you just do nothing for 8-9 turns and just sit back and let the Iona player ramp up and resolve her uncontested? Instead of just complaining about something, learn how to beat it.
You should really listen to yourself. Iona has been spoiled for just a few days now and already you're screaming for her banning.
Additionally, you say that Rofellos/Zur/Arcum/Erayo aren't broken, yet you're already proclaiming Iona to warp the format?
Why ban a card that isn't broken and/or overcentralizing?
Like Rofellos, Zur, Arcum, Erayo, and other generals don't do just that?
According to your logic, we might as well ban those generals as well.
It just seems to me that these generals threaten multiple people, so the entire group would focus on killing them, versus Emeria only targeting one. And in my experience, the only sympathy given to a locked out player like this is just not attacking him. And I will admit that I did not think of another player wrathing the board when Emeria just happened to be hosing someone else, as this happens fairly often.
That being said, there is still a good chance that the powers that be may ban her, as she fits there first banning criteria very well (In EDH you know exactly what colors an opponent is playing, and you also have the ability to make it to turn 9 more frequently)
So yeah, to sum it up. I play in a group full of slower decks, making Emeria much more powerful. I see now that I was wrong and that this is usually how EDH games were played (I thought most games would make it turn 9, if not turn 20+) but I guess in every other playgroup there are people running Arcum/Zur/Rof/Erayo.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
I agree with this. I just made my first mono-colored EDH deck and can see this being a problem since the color I'm playing isn't blue.
People keep talking about 9 mana and how she's hard to get out, but it makes me think people have never played this format. There's so much acceleration that if you wanted her out on turn 5 you could get her out. It won't be consistent, but it can happen. Happening once in a 1v1 against a mono colored deck already shows how broken she is.
I'm also reminded of the popularity of things like Decree of Justice in my group (I haven't seen a Resounding Wave yet but it wouldn't surprise me).
Most decks I see run colorless solutions. Not because of color hate, but just because they're that good and easy to fix for.
I might be wrong, but that's what someone pointed me to.
Every game that I've lost recently is because of this card. I can't stress my agreement enough.
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