The next announcement for the Banned list is on September 20th. Now that it's now just September, I thought it would be appropriate to speculate possible changes to the list and also what you would like to see added or removed.
EDH is an excellent format, and the format itself is still pretty young and continuing to develop as new cards are released. Constant tweaking to what cards should be recommended in not being played will allow EDH to keep growing and flourishing to attract new players.
You're probably wondering what I personally want to see changed to the banned list. Well, I'll give you my input with the reasoning behind it:
UNBAN
Metalworker: Honestly, it's quite sad to see how Metalworker is banned, yet Rofellos is free to run amok in the format with his acceleration. Metalworker is not a general like Rofellos, and this means you won't always have access to him like you will with Rofellos (who always hits play on turn 2 no matter what). Additionally, the general-ness of Rofellos makes him incredibly resilient to removal spells since you can just keep on replaying him. Metalworker does not have this luxury. Yes, Metalworker can go infinite with Staff of Domination, but so can Rofellos as well as going infinite with Umbral Mantle and Sword of the Paruns. If Rofellos remains legal as a general, it is only fair for Metalworker as a singleton to be legal again.
Riftsweeper: With Wizards adopting the "command zone", I think EDH as a format should do the same. If that is it the case, it is only natural to unban Riftsweeper as well. Without the ability to hose generals pre-emptively, Riftsweeper becomes a very fair card that actually has many effective applications. Hosing suspended cards against Jhoira of the Ghitu is very relevant, and it also gives decks a way to get exiled cards back in their decks.
BAN
Sol Ring: Oh boy, the big one. I'm ready to defend the warranting of banning Sol Ring though. Every single deck in EDH benefits from Sol Ring. All EDH decks begin their starting 99 with one Sol Ring and work from there. I can't think of a deck that wouldn't reap a huge bonus from sticking a Sol Ring in the deck. The amount of tempo boost Sol Ring provides in the early to mid game is just ridiculous. It effectively allows you to Time Walk twice for just 1 mana by going from one starting mana on turn 1 all the way up to 4 mana by turn 2. In a slow format like EDH, this is an extremely significant increase in tempo. There have been very few games I've lost when I was able to cast an early Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and my opponent was unable to match me in acceleration. By banning Sol Ring, the amount of game-breaking tempo gain that decks get from it is not only gone, but it also helps to free up deck space because every single deck is practically forced to play Sol Ring.
Mana Crypt: Sol Ring's partner in crime. Not much needs to be said about this guy since you can pretty much replace instances of Sol Ring in the above paragraph with Mana Crypt. Mana Crypt is basically Sol Ring #2 and is run in virtually every deck that can get their hands on it. Taking 3 damage randomly from it is pretty much inconsequential with 40-point life totals. A 0 casting cost can also prove to be even more disgusting than Sol Ring when you can play it on turn 1 with a land and have 3 mana right off the bat.
Keep in mind, this is just speculation, and what I personally want changed in the format as it moves forward. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts about what they'd like to see in the next banned list change and why :).
I'm fine with the list as it is, but I don't encounter decks that take unfair advantage of the One Ring and Speed Crypt...so can't really anything about that. My main 'against' reason would be that I would have to take 5 Sol Rings out of my 5 EDH decks
Anyways. As far as reasons not to ban Sol Ring. The card is the primary tool that allows generals to be recast for a reasonable cost. As such I don't see them banning the card anytime soon. Sure, it provides an unreasonable mana accel in some people's minds. However additionally it also provides 2 extra mana in addition to your normal mana that can be used to help accelerate back into your General. Which is integral for many decks that usually win by using General Damage or use the General as some form of tool to enable a win.
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I want them to fix the wishes so they function like they used to. They're certainly not overpowered and I like my Magic cards to actually do stuff without having to make a house rule.
Im happy enough with EDH right now that im fine if there's no changes. however, there are a few changes, that would be nice.
I agree fully with Riftsweeper. I dont get why they dont just mention that "Riftsweeper doesnt target generals".
personally, i wisn they'd just say Karakas can't bounce enemy generals, but i know their not just going to errata cards, so i dont expect that to happen. its just a shame to mangara, who could run a broken combo, instead of being sorta weak.
Sol Ring I dont expect to get banned, but i'd like it to. EDH has specifically said that they wont ban cards based on their "ubiquity". Still, Sol Ring deserves a ban. 99.9% of EDH decks want to run it (lol, there is 1 deck ive seen that wouldnt, a deck that wants to cascade into its combo). The only reason people dont is if they dont shell out the money. Sol Ring is just so ridiculously good in EDH. The tempo gain is just too much. Still, im sure it wont get banned.
Mind's Eye is a card i've never understood. How could it remain unbanned? Not only does every deck run it (especially ANY deck without access to blue should probably run it), but its powerlevel in multiplayer is so much more than intended by the printing, which is a criteria for a ban.
Every time a Mind's Eye hits the table, it is either dealt with, or its hard for that player to lose in multiplayer. in just a 4 person game, a minimum of drawing 4 cards a turn is pretty damn strong. But every1 runs tons of card draw and etc in EDH, so on average, i'd expect 5 cards a turn in a 4 player game, for the cost of 4 mana (one ccard is your normal draw).
Mind's Eye is already a card that wants the games to be as slow as possible. i can't think of a format as slow as EDH. I think thats where EDH's fun comes in, the fact that your not going to be blitzkrieged any time soon. Even in 1 on 1, Mind's Eye is a great card draw mechanism for a long game, and colorless to boot. But in multiplayer, there isn't really a comporable source of card advantage.
EDH is only slow because people insist on playing spells that cost so much. Baning a card just because its a solid good card, and isin every deck or would be in every deck is the wrong reason to ban a card.
The list is fine.
I think there are a few cards that should get the shaft, but that's only because I don't like playing in 4-5 player games and one person playing a 1 card combo deck. I.e. pickles lock, infinite turns, niv mizzet, etc.
But I don't think anything should be added/removed.
Is Kokusho really so broken without Recurring Nightmare? Heck Maga is probably just as powerful (if not more) as a general. If Kokusho is considered too good as a general, just do what they did for Braids and ban him as a general.
As far as the Ring. I don't even run it in all my decks even though I could, and I do pretty well.
As for re-wording Riftsweeper, they have, in the past, strayed away from card-specific rulings other than banning cards as generals.
I wish they would allow cards like the bringers to be played in decks other than 5 color (our group allows them and they hardly see play). I do not see the problem seeing as you are not able to take full advantage of a one of these cards in a mono-color deck.
I would like to see seperate banned list for multiplayer and 1V1.
I'd like to see Metalworker off the list (yes, I have a Karn deck, but I don't think that would be unreasonable at all). I've heard mention of Crucible being on the watch list, but I really don't think it's a problem.
Is Kokusho really so broken without Recurring Nightmare? Heck Maga is probably just as powerful (if not more) as a general. If Kokusho is considered too good as a general, just do what they did for Braids and ban him as a general.
Have you ever been in a 4 player game where even only 2 of the decks run an obscene amount of graveyard recurssion? I have, and its not fun for the other players. Now if you throw in Kokusho, and add in the ability of the other 2 decks to be able to steal cards from other players... then you find that Kokusho is suddenly the ONLY card that players at said table will care enough about to waste recurssion, or theft cards on so that they can benefit from Kokusho's "goes to the graveyard" abilithy. Sorry but this has less to do with her being a General, and more to do with her being an ordinary creature.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I disagree with the artifacts being banned here. Maze of Ith has given me much more irritation than anything else mentioned on this thread, but I still don't think it should be banned.
I always saw Sol Ring as an autoinclude, which isn't a bad thing.
Noone is suggesting Top here. Top is just as bad.
Both are around the same price, depending where you look.
From my experience a keepable hand is one with a top or ring in it.
Noone in my area uses Mana Crypt, so I can't comment.
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Admittedly, I haven't started playing EDH yet, but I'd want to see Gifts Ungiven unbanned simply so I can use my new shiny one.
(I can see why it is banned though. It is pretty incredible)
NO.. Just NO. Gifts Ungiven was used in too many broken combos to EVER justify its unbanning. The only way you could justify its unbanning is to ban ALL of the broken 4 piece combos you can achieve with it. And even then it really isn't worth it.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I know some people who firmly believe Tunnel Vision should be banned, and I can sympathize, but I'm not very opinionated on that one either way.
While I am not advocating banning Tunnel Vision I will say that I think it is an extremely cheezy win condition. I honestly do not see where the Painter's ServantGrindstone combo is any worse then Tunnel Vision Hinder, Junktroller, ect ect.
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All the kids who played the blues
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
Yawgmoth's Will should go. I mean, this thing is legal? Honestly? 2B, cheat until end of turn is legal?
Magister Sphinx and the new walker, Sorin Markov, are probably questionable for the 10 life set. Sphinx is in color for tutoring and reanimation, and is an artifact and a creature. So annoying. A 6 mana sorcery that smacks somebody for 20-30 and sticks around isn't cool. A creature you can quickly tutor and reanimate to put someone into the danger zone isn't good, it totally negates the entire point of the high starting life totals.
yeah maybe top should be banned... its a bit of auto include also... what we don't want in EDH (I'm assuming) is for there to be only a half dozen 'viable' decks like in standard.
Well yes, but I don't see how top changes that.
Personally, I think blue is overplayed as a color. I finally made a blue EDH deck after loathing playing against the color in the format. Gifts being banned was a step in the right direction though.
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imo, rofellos should get canned again.i was playing a deck with him as the general, and it was just
t1 mana dork
t2 rofelos
t3= 7 mana he can play what ever the f--- he wants.
i mean really...thats hardly fair. there not much that can combat that. there was a reason he was banned in the first place.
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I disagree with the artifacts being banned here. Maze of Ith has given me much more irritation than anything else mentioned on this thread, but I still don't think it should be banned.
I always saw Sol Ring as an autoinclude, which isn't a bad thing.
Noone is suggesting Top here. Top is just as bad.
Both are around the same price, depending where you look.
From my experience a keepable hand is one with a top or ring in it.
Noone in my area uses Mana Crypt, so I can't comment.
I was just going to say.
If people think Sol Ring is bad, what about Top. It's already been banned in a Constructed format beacuase everyone did play it, and it's no different in this casual format.
And everyone does play it, it's the same auto include that Sol Ring is. So is Skullclamp.
But because these are CA cards, not accel cards, people seem to be ignoring them.
Wow, just because a card is good in every deck doesn't mean it should be banned. Sol ring and mana crypt are powerful, but they don't make the game unfun and they aren't required to be competitive.
Personally I'd like to see the smallest ban list possible, though I think I agree with most of the choices at the moment. Metalworker and Upheaval should be unbanned, however, IMHO.
I would also like to see the rules tweaked to allow generals like rhys the exiled and Memnarch. Just say that a deck may only include the colors in your general's mana cost and the colors represented in your general's rules text. Voila.
I think the bonuses from Sol Ring and Mana Crypt is somewhat countered in a multiplayer game, but in single player those cards are just devastating and almost auto-win. I'm not sure a separate banned list for 1v1 is needed, but a lot of people play EDH that way, and the games can be so fluky because one person opens with ring or crypt.
I'm pretty happy with the current list, and don't think anything on it should be changed.
Wow, just because a card is good in every deck doesn't mean it should be banned. Sol ring and mana crypt are powerful, but they don't make the game unfun and they aren't required to be competitive.
Personally I'd like to see the smallest ban list possible, though I think I agree with most of the choices at the moment. Metalworker and Upheaval should be unbanned, however.
I agree with the first part: the fact that a card is good in ANY deck is all the more reason to keep it legal. Think about it, it improves the deck quality of anyone at the table, how is that a bad thing? For the most part it comes down to luck of the draw in a singleton format;and while a game that sees a first turn Sol Ring or Mana Crypt may be very skewed, it is far from being a consistent start on a game by game basis. It is hard to compare both Sol Ring and Mana Crypt with Sensei's Top, they do entirely different things. The first two are only really good if you draw them within your opening 7 or first few turns (but if you do they allow you a much more substantial tempo boost than the Top ever will). However, Top can be better in the later turns to fix your draws when that 2 extra mana is hardly relevant. I personally don't think any of them should be banned.
However, I disagree with your second point, more specifically regarding Upheaval. That card is busted-ass good and WILL win you the game everytime if it resolves and you play it correctly.
I too would like to see Riftsweeper back with the appropriate rules support.
EDH is an excellent format, and the format itself is still pretty young and continuing to develop as new cards are released. Constant tweaking to what cards should be recommended in not being played will allow EDH to keep growing and flourishing to attract new players.
You're probably wondering what I personally want to see changed to the banned list. Well, I'll give you my input with the reasoning behind it:
UNBAN
Metalworker: Honestly, it's quite sad to see how Metalworker is banned, yet Rofellos is free to run amok in the format with his acceleration. Metalworker is not a general like Rofellos, and this means you won't always have access to him like you will with Rofellos (who always hits play on turn 2 no matter what). Additionally, the general-ness of Rofellos makes him incredibly resilient to removal spells since you can just keep on replaying him. Metalworker does not have this luxury. Yes, Metalworker can go infinite with Staff of Domination, but so can Rofellos as well as going infinite with Umbral Mantle and Sword of the Paruns. If Rofellos remains legal as a general, it is only fair for Metalworker as a singleton to be legal again.
Riftsweeper: With Wizards adopting the "command zone", I think EDH as a format should do the same. If that is it the case, it is only natural to unban Riftsweeper as well. Without the ability to hose generals pre-emptively, Riftsweeper becomes a very fair card that actually has many effective applications. Hosing suspended cards against Jhoira of the Ghitu is very relevant, and it also gives decks a way to get exiled cards back in their decks.
BAN
Sol Ring: Oh boy, the big one. I'm ready to defend the warranting of banning Sol Ring though. Every single deck in EDH benefits from Sol Ring. All EDH decks begin their starting 99 with one Sol Ring and work from there. I can't think of a deck that wouldn't reap a huge bonus from sticking a Sol Ring in the deck. The amount of tempo boost Sol Ring provides in the early to mid game is just ridiculous. It effectively allows you to Time Walk twice for just 1 mana by going from one starting mana on turn 1 all the way up to 4 mana by turn 2. In a slow format like EDH, this is an extremely significant increase in tempo. There have been very few games I've lost when I was able to cast an early Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and my opponent was unable to match me in acceleration. By banning Sol Ring, the amount of game-breaking tempo gain that decks get from it is not only gone, but it also helps to free up deck space because every single deck is practically forced to play Sol Ring.
Mana Crypt: Sol Ring's partner in crime. Not much needs to be said about this guy since you can pretty much replace instances of Sol Ring in the above paragraph with Mana Crypt. Mana Crypt is basically Sol Ring #2 and is run in virtually every deck that can get their hands on it. Taking 3 damage randomly from it is pretty much inconsequential with 40-point life totals. A 0 casting cost can also prove to be even more disgusting than Sol Ring when you can play it on turn 1 with a land and have 3 mana right off the bat.
Keep in mind, this is just speculation, and what I personally want changed in the format as it moves forward. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts about what they'd like to see in the next banned list change and why :).
I kid, i kid. although it would be nice to run that again.
um, i'm not too concerned about what should be banned or unbanned. although i think banning sol ring would be a good idea. /shrug
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I do really hope they will incorporate the "Command Zone", so Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity can be unbanned.
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Pull from Eternity isn't banned...
Anyways. As far as reasons not to ban Sol Ring. The card is the primary tool that allows generals to be recast for a reasonable cost. As such I don't see them banning the card anytime soon. Sure, it provides an unreasonable mana accel in some people's minds. However additionally it also provides 2 extra mana in addition to your normal mana that can be used to help accelerate back into your General. Which is integral for many decks that usually win by using General Damage or use the General as some form of tool to enable a win.
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I agree fully with Riftsweeper. I dont get why they dont just mention that "Riftsweeper doesnt target generals".
personally, i wisn they'd just say Karakas can't bounce enemy generals, but i know their not just going to errata cards, so i dont expect that to happen. its just a shame to mangara, who could run a broken combo, instead of being sorta weak.
Sol Ring I dont expect to get banned, but i'd like it to. EDH has specifically said that they wont ban cards based on their "ubiquity". Still, Sol Ring deserves a ban. 99.9% of EDH decks want to run it (lol, there is 1 deck ive seen that wouldnt, a deck that wants to cascade into its combo). The only reason people dont is if they dont shell out the money. Sol Ring is just so ridiculously good in EDH. The tempo gain is just too much. Still, im sure it wont get banned.
Mind's Eye is a card i've never understood. How could it remain unbanned? Not only does every deck run it (especially ANY deck without access to blue should probably run it), but its powerlevel in multiplayer is so much more than intended by the printing, which is a criteria for a ban.
Every time a Mind's Eye hits the table, it is either dealt with, or its hard for that player to lose in multiplayer. in just a 4 person game, a minimum of drawing 4 cards a turn is pretty damn strong. But every1 runs tons of card draw and etc in EDH, so on average, i'd expect 5 cards a turn in a 4 player game, for the cost of 4 mana (one ccard is your normal draw).
Mind's Eye is already a card that wants the games to be as slow as possible. i can't think of a format as slow as EDH. I think thats where EDH's fun comes in, the fact that your not going to be blitzkrieged any time soon. Even in 1 on 1, Mind's Eye is a great card draw mechanism for a long game, and colorless to boot. But in multiplayer, there isn't really a comporable source of card advantage.
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EDH is only slow because people insist on playing spells that cost so much. Baning a card just because its a solid good card, and isin every deck or would be in every deck is the wrong reason to ban a card.
I think there are a few cards that should get the shaft, but that's only because I don't like playing in 4-5 player games and one person playing a 1 card combo deck. I.e. pickles lock, infinite turns, niv mizzet, etc.
But I don't think anything should be added/removed.
As far as the Ring. I don't even run it in all my decks even though I could, and I do pretty well.
As for re-wording Riftsweeper, they have, in the past, strayed away from card-specific rulings other than banning cards as generals.
I wish they would allow cards like the bringers to be played in decks other than 5 color (our group allows them and they hardly see play). I do not see the problem seeing as you are not able to take full advantage of a one of these cards in a mono-color deck.
I would like to see seperate banned list for multiplayer and 1V1.
Magister Sphinx needs to go. It's worth noting that I do play Magister Sphinx. It's also worth noting that the deck also includes Tooth and Nail and Hellkite Overlord. The deck also has Greater Gargadon and Corpse Dance. The deck also has motherloving CAULDRON DANCE. Sway of the Stars is banned for a reason. This is so much easier to recur.
I know some people who firmly believe Tunnel Vision should be banned, and I can sympathize, but I'm not very opinionated on that one either way.
Have you ever been in a 4 player game where even only 2 of the decks run an obscene amount of graveyard recurssion? I have, and its not fun for the other players. Now if you throw in Kokusho, and add in the ability of the other 2 decks to be able to steal cards from other players... then you find that Kokusho is suddenly the ONLY card that players at said table will care enough about to waste recurssion, or theft cards on so that they can benefit from Kokusho's "goes to the graveyard" abilithy. Sorry but this has less to do with her being a General, and more to do with her being an ordinary creature.
Maze of Ith has given me much more irritation than anything else mentioned on this thread, but I still don't think it should be banned.
I always saw Sol Ring as an autoinclude, which isn't a bad thing.
Noone is suggesting Top here. Top is just as bad.
Both are around the same price, depending where you look.
From my experience a keepable hand is one with a top or ring in it.
Noone in my area uses Mana Crypt, so I can't comment.
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(I can see why it is banned though. It is pretty incredible)
BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
Extended:
RGW Zoo WGR
Legacy:
RUG Canadian Thresh GUR
EDH:
U Arcum Dagsson U //// WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion BW //// UR Jhoira of the Ghitu RU
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NO.. Just NO. Gifts Ungiven was used in too many broken combos to EVER justify its unbanning. The only way you could justify its unbanning is to ban ALL of the broken 4 piece combos you can achieve with it. And even then it really isn't worth it.
While I am not advocating banning Tunnel Vision I will say that I think it is an extremely cheezy win condition. I honestly do not see where the Painter's Servant Grindstone combo is any worse then Tunnel Vision Hinder, Junktroller, ect ect.
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
Magister Sphinx and the new walker, Sorin Markov, are probably questionable for the 10 life set. Sphinx is in color for tutoring and reanimation, and is an artifact and a creature. So annoying. A 6 mana sorcery that smacks somebody for 20-30 and sticks around isn't cool. A creature you can quickly tutor and reanimate to put someone into the danger zone isn't good, it totally negates the entire point of the high starting life totals.
Well yes, but I don't see how top changes that.
Personally, I think blue is overplayed as a color. I finally made a blue EDH deck after loathing playing against the color in the format. Gifts being banned was a step in the right direction though.
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t1 mana dork
t2 rofelos
t3= 7 mana he can play what ever the f--- he wants.
i mean really...thats hardly fair. there not much that can combat that. there was a reason he was banned in the first place.
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I was just going to say.
If people think Sol Ring is bad, what about Top. It's already been banned in a Constructed format beacuase everyone did play it, and it's no different in this casual format.
And everyone does play it, it's the same auto include that Sol Ring is. So is Skullclamp.
But because these are CA cards, not accel cards, people seem to be ignoring them.
The list is fine the way it is.
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Personally I'd like to see the smallest ban list possible, though I think I agree with most of the choices at the moment. Metalworker and Upheaval should be unbanned, however, IMHO.
I would also like to see the rules tweaked to allow generals like rhys the exiled and Memnarch. Just say that a deck may only include the colors in your general's mana cost and the colors represented in your general's rules text. Voila.
I'm pretty happy with the current list, and don't think anything on it should be changed.
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The list is fine other than that.
There won't ever be an official one, because the format is intended by the creators to be multiplayer, and they refuse to make such a list.
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I agree with the first part: the fact that a card is good in ANY deck is all the more reason to keep it legal. Think about it, it improves the deck quality of anyone at the table, how is that a bad thing? For the most part it comes down to luck of the draw in a singleton format;and while a game that sees a first turn Sol Ring or Mana Crypt may be very skewed, it is far from being a consistent start on a game by game basis. It is hard to compare both Sol Ring and Mana Crypt with Sensei's Top, they do entirely different things. The first two are only really good if you draw them within your opening 7 or first few turns (but if you do they allow you a much more substantial tempo boost than the Top ever will). However, Top can be better in the later turns to fix your draws when that 2 extra mana is hardly relevant. I personally don't think any of them should be banned.
However, I disagree with your second point, more specifically regarding Upheaval. That card is busted-ass good and WILL win you the game everytime if it resolves and you play it correctly.
I too would like to see Riftsweeper back with the appropriate rules support.
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