lol, sry OKnotOK, but no1 seems to get the idea that u want advice cutting things b4 u add ideas for something else. im tempted to start shouting random blue and red things on the msgboard.
personally, i like my deck to have slim pickingsat 6cc+ when my general is a comborrific one (Teysa) or have a reason to have HEAPS of spells i cannot NORMALLY cast within the first 6+ turns (*cough* Jhoira *cough*). Therefore, in my opinion as someone who seldom plays blue, and plays it wrong when they actually do (like having 1 or 2 counters MAX), i would remove 3 lands and a few big spells to speed the deck in the hopeful future of little cantrip spells for the general, say Bogardan Hellkite and Draining Whelk. plus, with a bunch of draw7s, u will need less copies of hate and anonymous stuff b/c u are seeing a LOT more of your deck each game.
Not saying that these are bad spells, but maybe u can use them elsewhere so a new theme for the deck can emerge, one that will draw less haterade. Please, if u think my opinion here sux, dont use it, but at least i didnt add cards to the decklist
A final thought: instead of the creatures and spells that are Recalling used/milled spells, u can use Soldevi Digger and Lantern of Reito to refill your deck and still reuse all your spells, just less often but in limitless amounts. that can take place of the Scrivener, Izzet Chronarch, and Relearn to open an extra slot for a less powerful, but longer lasting, flavor of the deck.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
So, you mean Salvation users all over the place will burn their computers in attempt to prevent the forums from collapsing, and eventually, one of you will sacrifice himself and change the nature of the internet forever?
lol, sry OKnotOK, but no1 seems to get the idea that u want advice cutting things b4 u add ideas for something else. im tempted to start shouting random blue and red things on the msgboard.
Yes, Niv is great. He is my favorite dragon and I bought a foiled one when he came out just because.
I have built with him just not I ELH (yes, I know how I just spelled that). If I do I know it will have the draw Sevens (Timetwister is not banned,? who comes up with these bad and inconsistent banned rules anyway? Whatever.)
ah! think twice....how could i forget. I'll add that as well as oona's grace. good call on both counts.
also, another thought i just had; i'm taking out time stretch for knowledge exploitation. this is totally a metagame choice (as EVERY other blue deck is running time stretch, and a few are running KE....so i don't want them stretching off of me.....)
In my Niv EDH deck, I like the Izzet Chronarch mixed in with Time Stretch and Capsize to give me the game if no one can stop it (infinite turns).
I also like every card that can steal me another player's permanents. Every single one I can fit in, from Control Magic to Take Possession to Helm of Obedience and Veldalken Shackles. It's just too sweet to show up to a gun fight with a bunch of knives and take everyone out with their own stuff. Etermal Dominion might be nice... heheh
I also play both Time Spiral, Time Twister and Reminisce, so I can take out everyone, no matter how many people are playing.
gilded drake is FAR superior or sower IMO. the drake lets you take the creature for good, whereas the sower relies on a 2/2 staying in play. also, drake combos really well with capsize, e.g. " I cast gilded drake, take your darksteel colossus FOREVER...enjoy your 3/3....oh, wait, capsize it AND keep your DSC....."
Two words: Tradewind Rider...
It's better than Capsize and you can steal a creature every turn with the Drake. I try to get untappers for it, so I can steal multiple creatures every turn, like Opposition or Mind Over Matter.
I definitely suggest Windfall. It can make for some gamebreaking Niv triggers. One time did it for 14 cards after drawing like 7. Pretty much cleared the opponent's board and took a good chunk of life.
hmmmm......looks like I might be dropping Gifts soon, since it's on the 'watch' list. Honestly I wouldn't mind that much if it were banned. If Time Stretch gets banned too, then I'll probably drop Knowledge Exploitation too (since that's what it's there to 'exploit')
Also, just as a minor change, I would add Great Furnace and Seat of the Synod to the deck so that you have just a little more synergy with Trinket Mage and Academy Ruins. Sure it makes your lands just a little bit more vulnerable, but it helps your mana fixing by a little and gives you lands you can recur at a cost of no extra slots, unlike using the recently unbanned Crucible of Worlds.
Edit:
Another Question:
Is a card like Evacuation that much better Nevinyrral's Disk or Starstorm as a board clearer? Or is it better because there are times when you want to bounce your own creatures to get additional CiP effects?
Yet Another Question:
It seems most of the Niv-Mizzet decks I've seen feature cards like Scrivener and Izzet Chronarch. I'm just curious why. Which instants or sorcery spells are really that great to get back that you would run otherwise sub-par looking creatures? Cards like Eternal Witness and Restock are good because they can get back anything in the graveyard, giving the most flexibility, but if you are limited to just instants and sorceries, it feels like you are likely to just get back another counter spell. Is that really worth the card slot?
Another Question:
Is a card like Evacuation that much better Nevinyrral's Disk or Starstorm as a board clearer? Or is it better because there are times when you want to bounce your own creatures to get additional CiP effects?
Yet Another Question:
It seems most of the Niv-Mizzet decks I've seen feature cards like Scrivener and Izzet Chronarch. I'm just curious why. Which instants or sorcery spells are really that great to get back that you would run otherwise sub-par looking creatures? Cards like Eternal Witness and Restock are good because they can get back anything in the graveyard, giving the most flexibility, but if you are limited to just instants and sorceries, it feels like you are likely to just get back another counter spell. Is that really worth the card slot?
Evacuation combos extremely well with Izzet Chronarch or Scrivener......it can be a soft-lock in a duel (at least, if they're relying on attacking to win) e.g. - cast evacuation on their turn in response to attack; your turn, play chronarch/scrivener, returning evacuation; evacuate on their turn if they try to attack (bouncing your dude back too).....lather, rinse, repeat.
there are a lot of interactions in this deck that, honestly, even I didn't figure out until I started playing it. I started out by just throwing in all of my favorite blue tricks, and it turned out that some of them worked REALLY well together. A similar "lock" can be achieved with either of the two dudes and cryptic command - cast CC, play dude, return CC, play CC chosing tap (or counter) and bounce modes(bouncing dude)......
and, as Two-Headed Dragon mentioned, they both ROCK BIG TIME with riptide laboratory
EDIT:
@shinigami - anarchist got the axe a while ago, but he may make a comeback....if i can find room
@shinigami - anarchist got the axe a while ago, but he may make a comeback....if i can find room
I was just thinking, if you were going for a Wizard theme, he counts for the tribe and he grabs more big play spells from the graveyard, so there's more Riptide Lab antics to fool around with.
Yet Another Question:
It seems most of the Niv-Mizzet decks I've seen feature cards like Scrivener and Izzet Chronarch. I'm just curious why. Which instants or sorcery spells are really that great to get back that you would run otherwise sub-par looking creatures? Cards like Eternal Witness and Restock are good because they can get back anything in the graveyard, giving the most flexibility, but if you are limited to just instants and sorceries, it feels like you are likely to just get back another counter spell. Is that really worth the card slot?
Seriously? Try Time Stretch and Capsize...
I've said it before - Ba-roken!
His deck didn't run Time Stretch and while getting back Capsize would be very good, for the same cost (5 mana), there are several other creature cards that are arguably better. Even a creature like Azami, Lady of Scrolls seems like it would be better in the same slot or just to replace Scrivener, while leaving Izzet Chronarch in place as the most versatile choice.
His deck didn't run Time Stretch and while getting back Capsize would be very good, for the same cost (5 mana), there are several other creature cards that are arguably better. Even a creature like Azami, Lady of Scrolls seems like it would be better in the same slot or just to replace Scrivener, while leaving Izzet Chronarch in place as the most versatile choice.
Right, but it needs to. EVERY blue EDH deck needs to run as many 'Take another turn spells' as it can. No reason not to. Just from an entertainment perspective (which is why we play this game), I'd rather be doing something than sitting around waiting for someone else to play. I run either 4 or 5 extra turn cards as well as Fork/Twincast/Reiterate and the Capsize/Chronarch engine. I've always said, the ultimate form of denial in this game is to deny your opponent their turn.
Of course, it is rather annoying for your opponent... but that's the point of playing blue, right?
My Niv deck also runs 8 pingers as well as Charisma, and other ping effect enchantments, to try to deal as much damage as possible before busting out Niv.
I also run both Time Spiral and Timetwister along with the 3 fork-type spells to be able to kill everyone at once without running out of cards once Niv kicks in.
I will be adding the Mirror Sheen/Turnabout infinite mana engine tonight. Works great with playing all the cards I draw as well as with Capsize.
Of course, it is rather annoying for your opponent... but that's the point of playing blue, right?
If the guys you're playing are willing to put up with it then why not?
I know players against which this would not fly; I either grab my other friend's MBC maga deck or we don't play. Other guys shrug and just deal with whatever.
I had said previously, "My Niv deck also runs 8 pingers as well as Charisma, and other ping effect enchantments, to try to deal as much damage as possible before busting out Niv."
However, I have removed the pingers for the counter suite. It works a ton better now. I really like the part where I steal all the best cards in my opponent's decks!
I'm bumping this deck because every time I play it recently, it's incredibly frustrating - I think it's time for a major overhaul. It's become entirely too reactive, and too focused on stealing stuff.
Any suggestions?
Oh, and the list is in the first post....mostly for multiplayer.
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Pale Moon!Mudhole!personally, i like my deck to have slim pickingsat 6cc+ when my general is a comborrific one (Teysa) or have a reason to have HEAPS of spells i cannot NORMALLY cast within the first 6+ turns (*cough* Jhoira *cough*). Therefore, in my opinion as someone who seldom plays blue, and plays it wrong when they actually do (like having 1 or 2 counters MAX), i would remove 3 lands and a few big spells to speed the deck in the hopeful future of little cantrip spells for the general, say Bogardan Hellkite and Draining Whelk. plus, with a bunch of draw7s, u will need less copies of hate and anonymous stuff b/c u are seeing a LOT more of your deck each game.
Not saying that these are bad spells, but maybe u can use them elsewhere so a new theme for the deck can emerge, one that will draw less haterade. Please, if u think my opinion here sux, dont use it, but at least i didnt add cards to the decklist
A final thought: instead of the creatures and spells that are Recalling used/milled spells, u can use Soldevi Digger and Lantern of Reito to refill your deck and still reuse all your spells, just less often but in limitless amounts. that can take place of the Scrivener, Izzet Chronarch, and Relearn to open an extra slot for a less powerful, but longer lasting, flavor of the deck.
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
lolz.....i'm gonna stick a mudhole in here just cause you said that. kudos.
and for some reason, i don't know why, i've forgotten to put in reliquary tower about 1500 times in the last few weeks. kick me plz!
I have built with him just not I ELH (yes, I know how I just spelled that). If I do I know it will have the draw Sevens (Timetwister is not banned,? who comes up with these bad and inconsistent banned rules anyway? Whatever.)
And I would run for fun a Dragon Mage.
So many ways, so hard to choose. Later.
Dr.KnowMaD
In my Niv EDH deck, I like the Izzet Chronarch mixed in with Time Stretch and Capsize to give me the game if no one can stop it (infinite turns).
I also like every card that can steal me another player's permanents. Every single one I can fit in, from Control Magic to Take Possession to Helm of Obedience and Veldalken Shackles. It's just too sweet to show up to a gun fight with a bunch of knives and take everyone out with their own stuff. Etermal Dominion might be nice... heheh
I also play both Time Spiral, Time Twister and Reminisce, so I can take out everyone, no matter how many people are playing.
You also need to run Opposition.
Two words: Tradewind Rider...
It's better than Capsize and you can steal a creature every turn with the Drake. I try to get untappers for it, so I can steal multiple creatures every turn, like Opposition or Mind Over Matter.
added in Jace, curiosity, ophidian eye, knowledge exploitation,
keiga, and finally, reliquary towernot to mention a shiny new FNM counterspell
thinking about windfall maybe? also thinking about switching ponder with think twice (as TT is instant)
Signature by spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios
can anyone think of good ways to:
a) tutor the combo pieces out of the deck?
or
b) get the pieces out of the graveyard (like after a gifts)?
also added FoW to list in OP; dropping keiga (again)
Thanks to Spiderboy4 and High~Light Studios for the amazing sig and avatar
Um, Planar Portal? That should be a staple in EVERY EDH deck. Just too good...
I'd also run the Darksteel Forge.
I'll post my deck list a little later. Your's seems to be evolving into it, however, I also run the full suite of extra turn cards.
cuz scrivener's a wizard (combo w/ riptide laboratory), and the number of red sorceries in the deck = 0
and, ah, yes, planar portal....how could i forget!
All the cheap blue instant speed draw I can think of off the top of my head.
opt could be good; as could words of wisdom.....i'm not sure that the others would be better than just using think twice however.
lol, i should add the reach through mists/sift through sands/peer through depths combo......
HA! drop the UNSPEAKABLE!!!!!!!!
lol, Niv-Mizzet has read a lot of books, but How to Win Friends and Influence People wasn't one of them (well, he only read the second half)
dizzy spell could be good.......
and I REALLY need intuition
Looking at your deck though, I couldn't help but wonder why you don't seem to run very many red cards. Things like Detritivore, Beacon of Destruction, Chandra Nalaar, maybe even Flametongue Kavu or Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon given the large number of basic lands you run in the deck? Some of those cards seem like they would be better on average than cards like Gush, Thought Reflection, or Copy Artifact.
Also, just as a minor change, I would add Great Furnace and Seat of the Synod to the deck so that you have just a little more synergy with Trinket Mage and Academy Ruins. Sure it makes your lands just a little bit more vulnerable, but it helps your mana fixing by a little and gives you lands you can recur at a cost of no extra slots, unlike using the recently unbanned Crucible of Worlds.
Edit:
Another Question:
Is a card like Evacuation that much better Nevinyrral's Disk or Starstorm as a board clearer? Or is it better because there are times when you want to bounce your own creatures to get additional CiP effects?
Yet Another Question:
It seems most of the Niv-Mizzet decks I've seen feature cards like Scrivener and Izzet Chronarch. I'm just curious why. Which instants or sorcery spells are really that great to get back that you would run otherwise sub-par looking creatures? Cards like Eternal Witness and Restock are good because they can get back anything in the graveyard, giving the most flexibility, but if you are limited to just instants and sorceries, it feels like you are likely to just get back another counter spell. Is that really worth the card slot?
Evacuation combos extremely well with Izzet Chronarch or Scrivener......it can be a soft-lock in a duel (at least, if they're relying on attacking to win) e.g. - cast evacuation on their turn in response to attack; your turn, play chronarch/scrivener, returning evacuation; evacuate on their turn if they try to attack (bouncing your dude back too).....lather, rinse, repeat.
there are a lot of interactions in this deck that, honestly, even I didn't figure out until I started playing it. I started out by just throwing in all of my favorite blue tricks, and it turned out that some of them worked REALLY well together. A similar "lock" can be achieved with either of the two dudes and cryptic command - cast CC, play dude, return CC, play CC chosing tap (or counter) and bounce modes(bouncing dude)......
and, as Two-Headed Dragon mentioned, they both ROCK BIG TIME with riptide laboratory
EDIT:
@shinigami - anarchist got the axe a while ago, but he may make a comeback....if i can find room
I was just thinking, if you were going for a Wizard theme, he counts for the tribe and he grabs more big play spells from the graveyard, so there's more Riptide Lab antics to fool around with.
Seriously? Try Time Stretch and Capsize...
I've said it before - Ba-roken!
His deck didn't run Time Stretch and while getting back Capsize would be very good, for the same cost (5 mana), there are several other creature cards that are arguably better. Even a creature like Azami, Lady of Scrolls seems like it would be better in the same slot or just to replace Scrivener, while leaving Izzet Chronarch in place as the most versatile choice.
Right, but it needs to. EVERY blue EDH deck needs to run as many 'Take another turn spells' as it can. No reason not to. Just from an entertainment perspective (which is why we play this game), I'd rather be doing something than sitting around waiting for someone else to play. I run either 4 or 5 extra turn cards as well as Fork/Twincast/Reiterate and the Capsize/Chronarch engine. I've always said, the ultimate form of denial in this game is to deny your opponent their turn.
Of course, it is rather annoying for your opponent... but that's the point of playing blue, right?
My Niv deck also runs 8 pingers as well as Charisma, and other ping effect enchantments, to try to deal as much damage as possible before busting out Niv.
I also run both Time Spiral and Timetwister along with the 3 fork-type spells to be able to kill everyone at once without running out of cards once Niv kicks in.
I will be adding the Mirror Sheen/Turnabout infinite mana engine tonight. Works great with playing all the cards I draw as well as with Capsize.
If the guys you're playing are willing to put up with it then why not?
I know players against which this would not fly; I either grab my other friend's MBC maga deck or we don't play. Other guys shrug and just deal with whatever.
OK, here's my deck list:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=3770181#post3770181
I had said previously, "My Niv deck also runs 8 pingers as well as Charisma, and other ping effect enchantments, to try to deal as much damage as possible before busting out Niv."
However, I have removed the pingers for the counter suite. It works a ton better now. I really like the part where I steal all the best cards in my opponent's decks!
Any suggestions?
Oh, and the list is in the first post....mostly for multiplayer.