Rofellos definately takes the cake as the lamest general in 1v1 play.
Arcum Dagsson is close, but Rofellos is worse.
It's pretty dumb when you're pretty much forced to have a kill spell by turn 2 (since Rofellos will get played turn 2 like 95% of the time unless they don't have two forests for some crazy reason) or you're in for an agonizing match. After the Rofellos player untaps on turn 3 and from then out, their manabase explodes with a multitudeofmanarampspells. This leads to a near exponential increase of mana, leading to the ease of huge spells being cast. Take your pick, some random X spell like Wurmcalling, or random fatties like Silvos, Rogue Elemental and the extremely lethal Ursapine. Cards like Tooth and Nail are also gamebreakers. Hell, even a pure Timmy card like Crush of Wurms is a devastating play.
As if that weren't bad enough, many infinite combos also exist for a quick game over. Umbral Mantle requires just 4 Forests in play, and you have infinite mana + an infinitely powerful Rofellos. Sword of the Paruns also requires just 4 Forests for infinite mana. Staff of Domination is the worst though. 5 Forests results in infinite mana, infinite life, and the ability to draw out your entire library. Squall Line or Hurricane then ends the game on the spot.
Remember how I said you pretty much need a kill spell on turn 2 against Rofellos when it comes into play then? Well by the time the Rofellos player starts their mana ramping, it becomes much harder to get rid of Rofellos for good as the game goes on. All the mana ramping means Rofellos can absorb many kill cards as it gets replayed. Cards like Lightning Greaves and Thousand-Year Elixir will let Rofellos get back in the action immediately after being replayed. At this point, the amount of reliable answer to Rofellos here is very far and few in between. Hinder and Spin into Myth are probably your best bets.
Rofellos is extremely fast, and while not completely unbeatable, he limits a huge amount of generals' viablity. I don't like that in a mainly casual format that encourages many different generals to be played instead of just 5-6 viable ones. A general like Arcum Dagsson can potentially outrace Rofellos in going off, but not every general has the luxury of doing this.
I find it funny that Metalworker is banned, yet Rofellos is free to run wild in his mana ramping power.
Killing Rofellos on turn 2 is pretty much needed to slow them down enough so they don't go mana ramp on turn 3 onward. Since cards like Explosive Vegetation and Skyshroud Claim cost 4 mana, you'll be able to buy a good amount of time. If you don't stop Rofellos by this time... I hope you have a fast general.
As far as "tuck away" spells are concerned, Hinder and Spin into Myth are your only real reliable choices. I have a feeling I might be missing something else, but it still doesn't take away the fact your options are very limited at that point.
I've been playing with Vendilion Clique as a general for a bit, since every other blue deck is tef, daggson, or venser and I wanted to be cool. Its actually so awful to play against that most of the people I know straight up refuse to play 1v1, and glare at me when I try to play it multiplayer.
I've only got like...25 counters, I don't see it being that degenerate >.<
Both sides have good arguments, but sadly neither is completely correct. As for the "a-holes" being overly competitive our play group simply started out with a dralnu mbc deck, erayo u control (locks included) edh enchantress and a few random tribal decks. At first it was obvious the two evils in the format being both of the overly controlling decks, but most people ignored them as we are all friends. After awhile and a few strangly consistant "any responses? ok everyone is locked" incidents the play group essentially just removed the erayo player first every game bar none. After a while people stopped playing him in 1v1's. Currently the player took apart the erayo control and built a Zur deck that was again.. awsome at 1v1's, but ultimately sad in multiplayer... over time he's since evolved his zur deck to be alot more multiplayer friendly... and has since started actually being more competitive... cause if people dont play with you, then you arn't competing in anything.
My point is quite frankly EDH offers far too many options for people to bog themselves down into what "they" think is the most powerful generals... games begin to look exactly the same from all perspectives, be it being elimenated so early that you actually go take a nap before the next game or plays become so streamlined that they play themselves. The social outlet of the game can never be ignored, because the game requires opponents. The ironic part is if you make the game unfun for other people you will inevitably not have fun either as you wont have anyone to play with.
All that said, i still have to wonder why people seem to think that being "competitive" and "unoriginal" have to go hand in hand? The best players this game will ever have are those that can be both competitive AND original. Take a general thats not rated in this thread as cheese and build a competitive deck around it. Or take a general that IS rated in this thread as cheese and build a deck people actually play against. Either way you'll be doing alot better as a player, than you would if you simply looked up over the top generals and built decks (or in most cases clones) around them doing what you can to screw yourself and other people out of entertainment value.
As far as "tuck away" spells are concerned, Hinder and Spin into Myth are your only real reliable choices. I have a feeling I might be missing something else, but it still doesn't take away the fact your options are very limited at that point.
There have been a lot of great generals listed but most share the same weakness, the deck just sucks without them. Zur deck without Zur? Arcum got Hindered? Rofellos keeps getting countered? What you are left with is probably just a pile of garbage.
Both sides have good arguments, but sadly neither is completely correct. As for the "a-holes" being overly competitive our play group simply started out with a dralnu mbc deck, erayo u control (locks included) edh enchantress and a few random tribal decks. At first it was obvious the two evils in the format being both of the overly controlling decks, but most people ignored them as we are all friends. After awhile and a few strangly consistant "any responses? ok everyone is locked" incidents the play group essentially just removed the erayo player first every game bar none. After a while people stopped playing him in 1v1's. Currently the player took apart the erayo control and built a Zur deck that was again.. awsome at 1v1's, but ultimately sad in multiplayer... over time he's since evolved his zur deck to be alot more multiplayer friendly... and has since started actually being more competitive... cause if people dont play with you, then you arn't competing in anything.
My point is quite frankly EDH offers far too many options for people to bog themselves down into what "they" think is the most powerful generals... games begin to look exactly the same from all perspectives, be it being elimenated so early that you actually go take a nap before the next game or plays become so streamlined that they play themselves. The social outlet of the game can never be ignored, because the game requires opponents. The ironic part is if you make the game unfun for other people you will inevitably not have fun either as you wont have anyone to play with.
All that said, i still have to wonder why people seem to think that being "competitive" and "unoriginal" have to go hand in hand? The best players this game will ever have are those that can be both competitive AND original. Take a general thats not rated in this thread as cheese and build a competitive deck around it. Or take a general that IS rated in this thread as cheese and build a deck people actually play against. Either way you'll be doing alot better as a player, than you would if you simply looked up over the top generals and built decks (or in most cases clones) around them doing what you can to screw yourself and other people out of entertainment value.
While I agree with what you're saying here in multiplayer, this thread is about 1v1, and certain generals are definitely better, more competitive, and thus often considered "lame" (as the thread title indicates). I'm not sure you can really argue with that. Rofellos, (pre-banned) Braids, Erayo, Zur, Daggson, all these guys are considered "the best" and can be quite annoying to face in 1v1.
Misunderstood your post. That would be funny actually.
I believe that if he gets removed from the game they can play him again no matter what causes him to be RFGed
They could play him again but since they rely on Rofellos for acceleration and Duplicant costs 6 their general is going to be a tree for awhile. Realistically their best response is a disenchant effect but that would work on Threads anyways.
EDIT: Braids also loses pretty badly to Lignify as they have a hard time killing her since she is black. You lose a permanent but their general is a tree. Not a bad deal.
There's also Control Magic options: Govern the Guildless. But nothing terribly efficient.
I knew I was forgetting a few cards, but it's still very slim pickings. Bant Charm requires a GWU general at least (gogo Rafiq?) to use. Proteus Staff is ok I guess. At least it's in the color of blue.
Control magic options like Govern the Guildless have the problem of being a tad slow against Rofellos, who reliably comes online turn 2 and starts mana ramping/playing big stuff on turn 3.
There have been a lot of great generals listed but most share the same weakness, the deck just sucks without them. Zur deck without Zur? Arcum got Hindered? Rofellos keeps getting countered? What you are left with is probably just a pile of garbage.
Arcum Dagsson still works reasonably well without him. Being blue, you have access to crazy fast mana, card draw, tutoring, and straight-upbrokencards even without Dagsson. Alternate win conditions, like Tezzeret the Seeker and Phyrexian Processor are nothing to sneeze at.
But yeah, I do agree with you for the most part that the majority of time a deck without its general is in deep trouble if they don't have solid alternative plan Bs. However, Rofellos is particularly hard to get rid of for good because he costs only 2 mana. This means he gets under Hinder, and pretty much all countermagic used in EDH. What else is going to counter Rofellos when he comes into play turn 2? Spell Snare? Force Spike? Not the best cards in the world in EDH...
My best answer to Rofellos is Threads of Disloyalty
Yay for narrow, situational cards I guess. Good luck getting Threads out by turn 3 (or turn 2 with acceleration) when it's 1 card in a 99 card deck. Threads is amazing against Rofellos, but against what else? Against bigger generals Threads is pretty sucky; I would want want something like Treachery instead. Even a somewhat small general like Rafiq laughs at Threads.
This does not answer the problem until turn 5 and assumes they have a creature tutor in hand. If they can't answer Lignify the correct answer is to probably scoop and move on to the next game.
This does not answer the problem until turn 5 and assumes they have a creature tutor in hand. If they can't answer Lignify the correct answer is to probably scoop and move on to the next game.
You do realize Rofellos runs a lot of mana ramp other than Rofellos himself, right?
I thought of a couple generals that are a bit unbalanced in 1v1. Rafiq and Crovax Ascendant plus a bunch of shadow, quietus spike, loxodon warhammer and such are hard to outrace.
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Arcum Dagsson is close, but Rofellos is worse.
It's pretty dumb when you're pretty much forced to have a kill spell by turn 2 (since Rofellos will get played turn 2 like 95% of the time unless they don't have two forests for some crazy reason) or you're in for an agonizing match. After the Rofellos player untaps on turn 3 and from then out, their manabase explodes with a multitude of mana ramp spells. This leads to a near exponential increase of mana, leading to the ease of huge spells being cast. Take your pick, some random X spell like Wurmcalling, or random fatties like Silvos, Rogue Elemental and the extremely lethal Ursapine. Cards like Tooth and Nail are also gamebreakers. Hell, even a pure Timmy card like Crush of Wurms is a devastating play.
As if that weren't bad enough, many infinite combos also exist for a quick game over. Umbral Mantle requires just 4 Forests in play, and you have infinite mana + an infinitely powerful Rofellos. Sword of the Paruns also requires just 4 Forests for infinite mana. Staff of Domination is the worst though. 5 Forests results in infinite mana, infinite life, and the ability to draw out your entire library. Squall Line or Hurricane then ends the game on the spot.
Remember how I said you pretty much need a kill spell on turn 2 against Rofellos when it comes into play then? Well by the time the Rofellos player starts their mana ramping, it becomes much harder to get rid of Rofellos for good as the game goes on. All the mana ramping means Rofellos can absorb many kill cards as it gets replayed. Cards like Lightning Greaves and Thousand-Year Elixir will let Rofellos get back in the action immediately after being replayed. At this point, the amount of reliable answer to Rofellos here is very far and few in between. Hinder and Spin into Myth are probably your best bets.
Rofellos is extremely fast, and while not completely unbeatable, he limits a huge amount of generals' viablity. I don't like that in a mainly casual format that encourages many different generals to be played instead of just 5-6 viable ones. A general like Arcum Dagsson can potentially outrace Rofellos in going off, but not every general has the luxury of doing this.
I find it funny that Metalworker is banned, yet Rofellos is free to run wild in his mana ramping power.
If you don't kill Rofellos quickly, you get buried in mana ramp which leads to insane, gamebreaking bombs. Or they could go with a quick Plow Under to Time Walk your ass, and recur it several times thanks to Regrowth, Revive, Eternal Witness, and Restock. Or they can go infinite with Staff of Domination, Sword of the Paruns, and Umbral Mantle.
Killing Rofellos on turn 2 is pretty much needed to slow them down enough so they don't go mana ramp on turn 3 onward. Since cards like Explosive Vegetation and Skyshroud Claim cost 4 mana, you'll be able to buy a good amount of time. If you don't stop Rofellos by this time... I hope you have a fast general.
As far as "tuck away" spells are concerned, Hinder and Spin into Myth are your only real reliable choices. I have a feeling I might be missing something else, but it still doesn't take away the fact your options are very limited at that point.
I've only got like...25 counters, I don't see it being that degenerate >.<
My point is quite frankly EDH offers far too many options for people to bog themselves down into what "they" think is the most powerful generals... games begin to look exactly the same from all perspectives, be it being elimenated so early that you actually go take a nap before the next game or plays become so streamlined that they play themselves. The social outlet of the game can never be ignored, because the game requires opponents. The ironic part is if you make the game unfun for other people you will inevitably not have fun either as you wont have anyone to play with.
All that said, i still have to wonder why people seem to think that being "competitive" and "unoriginal" have to go hand in hand? The best players this game will ever have are those that can be both competitive AND original. Take a general thats not rated in this thread as cheese and build a competitive deck around it. Or take a general that IS rated in this thread as cheese and build a deck people actually play against. Either way you'll be doing alot better as a player, than you would if you simply looked up over the top generals and built decks (or in most cases clones) around them doing what you can to screw yourself and other people out of entertainment value.
Yeah, there's not a lot of tuck in the game. Condemn won't hit Rofellos. Bant Charm and Proteus Staff are options.
There's also Control Magic options: Govern the Guildless. But nothing terribly efficient.
Lignify for the humiliation factor. Green terror FTW!
While I agree with what you're saying here in multiplayer, this thread is about 1v1, and certain generals are definitely better, more competitive, and thus often considered "lame" (as the thread title indicates). I'm not sure you can really argue with that. Rofellos, (pre-banned) Braids, Erayo, Zur, Daggson, all these guys are considered "the best" and can be quite annoying to face in 1v1.
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just means they take out there Rofellos themselves.
With green removal? I guess they could Duplicant him.
Misunderstood your post. That would be funny actually.
I believe that if he gets removed from the game they can play him again no matter what causes him to be RFGed
They could play him again but since they rely on Rofellos for acceleration and Duplicant costs 6 their general is going to be a tree for awhile. Realistically their best response is a disenchant effect but that would work on Threads anyways.
EDIT: Braids also loses pretty badly to Lignify as they have a hard time killing her since she is black. You lose a permanent but their general is a tree. Not a bad deal.
I knew I was forgetting a few cards, but it's still very slim pickings. Bant Charm requires a GWU general at least (gogo Rafiq?) to use. Proteus Staff is ok I guess. At least it's in the color of blue.
Control magic options like Govern the Guildless have the problem of being a tad slow against Rofellos, who reliably comes online turn 2 and starts mana ramping/playing big stuff on turn 3.
Arcum Dagsson still works reasonably well without him. Being blue, you have access to crazy fast mana, card draw, tutoring, and straight-up broken cards even without Dagsson. Alternate win conditions, like Tezzeret the Seeker and Phyrexian Processor are nothing to sneeze at.
But yeah, I do agree with you for the most part that the majority of time a deck without its general is in deep trouble if they don't have solid alternative plan Bs. However, Rofellos is particularly hard to get rid of for good because he costs only 2 mana. This means he gets under Hinder, and pretty much all countermagic used in EDH. What else is going to counter Rofellos when he comes into play turn 2? Spell Snare? Force Spike? Not the best cards in the world in EDH...
Yay for narrow, situational cards I guess. Good luck getting Threads out by turn 3 (or turn 2 with acceleration) when it's 1 card in a 99 card deck. Threads is amazing against Rofellos, but against what else? Against bigger generals Threads is pretty sucky; I would want want something like Treachery instead. Even a somewhat small general like Rafiq laughs at Threads.
The correct play would be to tutor up Indrik Stomphowler or Acidic Slime with something like Worldy Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, or Survival of the Fittest and kill the offending Lignify. Brute force card draw like Sylvan Library and Harmonize backed up with recurring cards help to dig for said answer cards as well
This does not answer the problem until turn 5 and assumes they have a creature tutor in hand. If they can't answer Lignify the correct answer is to probably scoop and move on to the next game.
You do realize Rofellos runs a lot of mana ramp other than Rofellos himself, right?