I completely agree. But Fiery Fall is one that i do disagree with. That one is worth every part of it. its a five point Heat Ray at cost, or it cycles for land. And because it hits for five, its hard to find a general it doesnt kill, or a creature for the most part.
Fall i think should be on there, but the others are not worthy.
And your opinion shouldnt be final say on what goes on the list. Because everyone has different opinions and play styles. Or why should people post on here if you get a Veto?
Well aren't I allowed at least to give my opinion?
Ok you convinced me for now, but if someone else thinks otherwise, it comes off. Fair?
I'm always looking for new ways for Green to draw cards, and I just stumbled upon one you might add to the list: Citanul Woodreaders. You'd never pay it without the kicker, but it acts as Wall of Blossom's smarter and stronger older brother. Maybe he's too expensive to make the list, but when you're not pairing Green with Blue or Black, it never hurts to have more ways to draw cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
I'm always looking for new ways for Green to draw cards, and I just stumbled upon one you might add to the list: Citanul Woodreaders. You'd never pay it without the kicker, but it acts as Wall of Blossom's smarter and stronger older brother. Maybe he's too expensive to make the list, but when you're not pairing Green with Blue or Black, it never hurts to have more ways to draw cards.
i was thinking that you werent going to include it. Apparently i miss took your post.
I wasn't going to include it based on your initial post, but I thought you came back with good reasons, so I did. I just felt like you were getting defensive because I disagreed with you, and I wanted to tell you that that was not the case; you get to give your opinions and I get to give mine. Just because there will be times that I disagree with you and "veto" your decision doesn't mean you should never post your thoughts. Hope that clears it up. Thanks for your input!
Reliquary Tower is in already. Rupture Spite is good, but I'm reserving the land section for those that have some sort of utility aside from mana creation. Otherwise, the list would be too long.
I wasn't going to include it based on your initial post, but I thought you came back with good reasons, so I did.
This is in fact a veto effect. Because you disagreed with my inclusion you were just not going to include it.
I just felt like you were getting defensive because I disagreed with you, and I wanted to tell you that that was not the case; you get to give your opinions and I get to give mine. Just because there will be times that I disagree with you and "veto" your decision doesn't mean you should never post your thoughts. Hope that clears it up. Thanks for your input!
I respect your opinions on the card and anything else. But just because you disagree doesnt mean you should not include a card that someone posts on here. Everyone who posts a card has experience with the card in question and has found it to be good enough to be in a list for those looking for good staples.
Like i disagree with one or two of the cards on the list, that doesnt mean they should be removed.
I hope you try out Fiery Fall (the card that triggered this discussion) for yourself in red decks. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Also from that cycle [card]Traumatic Visions[card] managed to make it onto your list, and i have found that one to also be a good one.
I did not communicate clearly. I was wondering why it was included.
Because the Tower is very good. Many a time in this format i find myself with at least 10 cards in hand. Whether that be with cards like Opportunity or Slate of Ancestry. and a Spellbook that taps for mana, is really good. My opinion is that if you are not including the very best in card advantage in your decks, you're doing something wrong. I will note that a lot of the cards currently on the list are card advantage.
So to separate my ideas on what should go in from this post:
Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar Opportunity (noticed that Tidings is on there, but not its older Instant brother) Stroke of Genius (noticed that Braingyser is on there, but not its newer (not by much, though) instant brother)
I did not communicate clearly. I was wondering why it was included.
Reliquary Tower is incredible in EDH. Play is very slow and you often end up discarding due to hand size, especially since a lot of people play global draw effects. People actually play Spellbook and Library of Leng (which I don't condone, but they do) for the same reason. For the cost of a single colorless land, it's completely worth it, though.
This is in fact a veto effect. Because you disagreed with my inclusion you were just not going to include it.
I respect your opinions on the card and anything else. But just because you disagree doesnt mean you should not include a card that someone posts on here. Everyone who posts a card has experience with the card in question and has found it to be good enough to be in a list for those looking for good staples.
Your argument is very reasonable, but here is my problem. How do I argue against the inclusion of a card (in an attempt to convince you) without you calling it a veto? I didn't intend for my comment to be the be-all-end-all comment that ends the discussion. I wanted to open up a dialogue (which we did) in hope that the discussion would end with a mutual agreement (which it did). Similarly, please let me know the cards on the list already that you might remove if given the opportunity. I would thoroughly enjoy having intellectual discussions on their merits.
So to separate my ideas on what should go in from this post:
Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar Opportunity (noticed that Tidings is on there, but not its older Instant brother) Stroke of Genius (noticed that Braingyser is on there, but not its newer (not by much, though) instant brother)
Completely agree on all of these. Actually, I wasn't originally including legends (which is why Tomorrow wasn't there), but recently decided to remove that restriction, so the list is missing almost every good legend out there. We need to amend that.
Yagami - Thank you for inclusions. I added most of them, but I disagree on the following. Per my discussion with AceRimmer, these are not being outright vetoed (unless you don't respond); rather, let's both argue what we feel their merits/flaws are and see if we can come to a mutual agreement.
The ones I felt shoudn't be included are: Counterbalance - Too conditional for EDH. Only great as a lock with Top, and maybe too difficult to find in a 100 card singleton deck. Even if you did, with so many players it would be difficult to have enough mana to do all the manipulation you would need to, and even if you were able to, the hugely variable converted mana costs in the format would doom you. Corpse Dance - A great card in the right deck, but this list is intended to be cards that are great and should at least be considered for every single (fill in the color) deck that you make. I don't feel that Corpse Dance meets that criterion. Entomb, Death Cloud, Dread Return, Makeshift Mannequin, Pox - See above. Conditional cards for certain specific types of decks. I did, however, include Animate Dead and Necromancy, mainly because they can target opponents' graveyards, too. Barbed Shocker - I don't see the value in this one unless you're running an Underworld Dreams combo or something. Is there a generic, good use for this that I'm unaware of? Azorius Guildmage - I'm very down on tap effects in EDH (hence no Icy Manipulator on the list) and it's going to take a lot to convince me otherwise. Reason being, essentially, is that you have to decide whether or not to tap a would-be attacking creature before the attacking target is declared. This is a very bad thing in terms of diplomacy. As for the countering activated abilities part, it's good, but I don't think it's worth it for a little 2/2 that requires you to keep a siginficant amount of mana open. I could be swayed on this one, so if someone can back this dude up, let me know. Gauntlet of Might - A great card, no doubt, but too expensive ($$) to include here. Not accessible for most players. I don't have a set dollar amount limit, but if I did, it would be somewhere around $25 at the absolute maximum I think.
For Blue, I think Rewind and Dismiss should be on there. For me, there always 2 of the most important counters for a U based or U containing control deck. Rewind allows you to easily counter 2 things in a turn, which is quite crucial. In multiplayer EDH, it is incredibly important, because it allows you to counter something from one player without having to worry about the next player dropping a game winning combo. Rewind is so strong in multiplahyer. Dismiss is a bit less good, but i think one of the most solid hard counters. 4 is expensive, but in EDH not really. One of the main problems with a control deck is keeping up steam, you have to prevent every from getting their deck working perfectly or else they'll bootstomp ya face. Dismiss keeps up your control strategy and seamlessly keeps it going. 2 of my favorite counters.
For Blue, I think Rewind and Dismiss should be on there. For me, there always 2 of the most important counters for a U based or U containing control deck. Rewind allows you to easily counter 2 things in a turn, which is quite crucial. In multiplayer EDH, it is incredibly important, because it allows you to counter something from one player without having to worry about the next player dropping a game winning combo. Rewind is so strong in multiplahyer. Dismiss is a bit less good, but i think one of the most solid hard counters. 4 is expensive, but in EDH not really. One of the main problems with a control deck is keeping up steam, you have to prevent every from getting their deck working perfectly or else they'll bootstomp ya face. Dismiss keeps up your control strategy and seamlessly keeps it going. 2 of my favorite counters.
Sower of Temptation seems to work pretty well for me. Also, any multicolored instant with the word "charm" in its name would be worth considering. Also Mindlock Orb is fun, and Power Sink is great since you've almost always got mana to spare.
Your argument is very reasonable, but here is my problem. How do I argue against the inclusion of a card (in an attempt to convince you) without you calling it a veto? I didn't intend for my comment to be the be-all-end-all comment that ends the discussion. I wanted to open up a dialogue (which we did) in hope that the discussion would end with a mutual agreement (which it did). Similarly, please let me know the cards on the list already that you might remove if given the opportunity. I would thoroughly enjoy having intellectual discussions on their merits.
I guess the way you argue against the inclusion of a card is by starting your argument with the line "i will include the card, but..." because that shows good faith. it doesnt make the argument feel like i have to win or the card wont be included just because you (the only man who can include cards) have control. Wanting a discussion about a card is good. and from your position it is hard to not come off as a veto when you are the one in control. But when it comes to cards, you need to be more open minded and maybe post that you would prefer more information on why the card should be in. But not come off as you will not include it.
Yagami - Thank you for inclusions. I added most of them, but I disagree on the following. Per my discussion with AceRimmer, these are not being outright vetoed (unless you don't respond); rather, let's both argue what we feel their merits/flaws are and see if we can come to a mutual agreement.
Good start, i will give my opinions on the cards in question.
The ones I felt shoudn't be included are: Counterbalance - Too conditional for EDH. Only great as a lock with Top, and maybe too difficult to find in a 100 card singleton deck. Even if you did, with so many players it would be difficult to have enough mana to do all the manipulation you would need to, and even if you were able to, the hugely variable converted mana costs in the format would doom you.
I agree with this. it is very hard in 100 card singleton to have the manipulation needed to make it work. Especially considering you see cards ranging costs from 0-10 in a lot of decks. I personally include cards all over the cost map. so Counterbalance may hit 1 out of every 10 or so times, but i think those are higher odds than it would actually be in practice.
Corpse Dance - A great card in the right deck, but this list is intended to be cards that are great and should at least be considered for every single (fill in the color) deck that you make. I don't feel that Corpse Dance meets that criterion.
This too i agree with not including. if it wasnt top creature, it would be worth while. but with the restriction, not as much. maybe a Kresh deck with lots of good sac outlets would be able to take advantage of it properly, but with it only good for a very few commanders, i support its not being included.
Entomb: Agree
Death Cloud: On the fence. this can work out as a good Panic Button. maybe not good enough to be on the list of staples. but i think most black decks can really use it well.
Dread Return and Mannequin: These two i disagree with you on. especially Mannequin. Recursion in this format is better than it is in any other format. because with only one of each card, the ability to reuse the best ones is major. Mannequin being instant speed makes it very big. and most the things that would target it are either going to kill it anyway, or are preventing your opponent from getting a benefit from it, like good creature enchantments and so forth. Sure it can turn Evolution Charm into a kill card, but Mannequin is still one of the best reanimate spells out there (mostly due to it being instant speed.) Speaking of Evolution Charm, that should be on there. as it is also so versatile being able to give evasion, act like an instant Raise Dead, or color fix/get out of mana screw. i have had all 3 options win games in both standard (before the rotation) and EDH.
Pox: Agreed. i dont think this is good enough to be on the list. its a little bit to global to really be useful enough to be on a staples list.
Barbed Shocker - I don't see the value in this one unless you're running an Underworld Dreams combo or something. Is there a generic, good use for this that I'm unaware of?
I am with you on this one too. Barbed Shocker isnt powerful enough to be a staple. in a deck trying to take advantage of Dreams/the one from Shadowmoor it could do really well. but outside that, not really.
Azorius Guildmage - I'm very down on tap effects in EDH (hence no Icy Manipulator on the list) and it's going to take a lot to convince me otherwise. Reason being, essentially, is that you have to decide whether or not to tap a would-be attacking creature before the attacking target is declared. This is a very bad thing in terms of diplomacy. As for the countering activated abilities part, it's good, but I don't think it's worth it for a little 2/2 that requires you to keep a siginficant amount of mana open. I could be swayed on this one, so if someone can back this dude up, let me know.
I disagree, i have had this little guildmage wreck me many times. its because in such a slow format, the poly ability to tap down guys is pretty big. and its counter effect can stop many things dead. like Legacy Weapon, another card that has been the bane of my existence. Or planeswalkers, such as Nicol. it may not be good enough to be a staple. but i think it should have an honorable mention.
Gauntlet of Might - A great card, no doubt, but too expensive ($$) to include here. Not accessible for most players. I don't have a set dollar amount limit, but if I did, it would be somewhere around $25 at the absolute maximum I think.
Gauntlet of Power, now we're talking. and its only a dollar rare. For mono colored decks, i could see this as a good inclusion.
I guess the way you argue against the inclusion of a card is by starting your argument with the line "i will include the card, but..." because that shows good faith. it doesnt make the argument feel like i have to win or the card wont be included just because you (the only man who can include cards) have control. Wanting a discussion about a card is good. and from your position it is hard to not come off as a veto when you are the one in control. But when it comes to cards, you need to be more open minded and maybe post that you would prefer more information on why the card should be in. But not come off as you will not include it.
I will try to be more open-minded. Thanks for the constructive conversation.
Dread Return and Mannequin: These two i disagree with you on. especially Mannequin. Recursion in this format is better than it is in any other format. because with only one of each card, the ability to reuse the best ones is major. Mannequin being instant speed makes it very big. and most the things that would target it are either going to kill it anyway, or are preventing your opponent from getting a benefit from it, like good creature enchantments and so forth. Sure it can turn Evolution Charm into a kill card, but Mannequin is still one of the best reanimate spells out there (mostly due to it being instant speed.) Speaking of Evolution Charm, that should be on there. as it is also so versatile being able to give evasion, act like an instant Raise Dead, or color fix/get out of mana screw. i have had all 3 options win games in both standard (before the rotation) and EDH.
I disagree, i have had this little guildmage wreck me many times. its because in such a slow format, the poly ability to tap down guys is pretty big. and its counter effect can stop many things dead. like Legacy Weapon, another card that has been the bane of my existence. Or planeswalkers, such as Nicol. it may not be good enough to be a staple. but i think it should have an honorable mention.
Obviously a case can be made for each card on the list. But it will just balloon into 100 cards of each colour that players like. You should set a limit, say the top 25 cards of each colour. Then once the top 25 are on the list, instead of people posting and just saying "X card is good because of Y", they'd have to say "X card is better than card Y already on the list, and deserves the spot". Then other people in the thread could comment on whether they agree or not. This would make sure that only the best cards make it, and would also ensure that there's some discussion about each choice instead of me just posting my favourite cards, whether they should be on the list of best cards or not.
My 2 cents.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like Elder Dragon Highlander? Check out theEDH deck databasewith more than 150 decks!
i have to say i agree with Bolas. I think the lists should be cut down, if not to top 25 of each color, smth similar. from there, we can directly compare cards. because, "best cards" in EDH, can be hard to define. Freed From the Real is absolutely devastating on Merieke Ri Berit, but is freed from the real good? Probably not... but it's hard to draw the line at how situation smth has to be, Direct comparisions are much simpler.
TOP 25 CARDS BY COLOR. If you feel there is a better card that can replace one on the list, post your contructive thoughts and arguments and we will consider making a change.
I've relabeled the list of cards to include numbers, to show how many cards have to be cut from each slot. I think the best way to approach this is to look each cards from 26-onwards, and ask why it belongs in one of the 1-25 slots instead.
Blue Telemin Performance - a poor man's Bribery. For 5 mana and a card this could net you an Eager Cadet, and so I don't think it belongs on this list
Black Reanimate - this card is too narrow in scope and requires a lot of set up to be played in the first few turns, before it is obsoleted by Zombify and co.
Red Shunt - Fork, Reiterate and Wild Ricochet are already on the list. Shunt does not cut it by comparison.
Green Citanul Woodreaders - I can always appreciate card draw in non-U/B colours, but there are better options available such as Harmonize or artifact card draw such as Mind's Eye, Skullclamp, etc.
Multi
Psychatog's usefulness is pretty limited in EDH, I think. He's a bomb in one-on-one, but in multiplayer he's just kind of meh.
Artifact Nightmare Lash - an awesome piece of equipment, it unfortunately gets overshadowed by the better artifacts available in the format.
Land Mouth of Ronom - like Nightmare Lash this is a great card overshadowed by the awesomeness of the other cards in the category.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like Elder Dragon Highlander? Check out theEDH deck databasewith more than 150 decks!
I've relabeled the list of cards to include numbers, to show how many cards have to be cut from each slot. I think the best way to approach this is to look each cards from 26-onwards, and ask why it belongs in one of the 1-25 slots instead.
Blue Telemin Performance - a poor man's Bribery. For 5 mana and a card this could net you an Eager Cadet, and so I don't think it belongs on this list
Black Reanimate - this card is too narrow in scope and requires a lot of set up to be played in the first few turns, before it is obsoleted by Zombify and co.
Red Shunt - Fork, Reiterate and Wild Ricochet are already on the list. Shunt does not cut it by comparison.
Green Citanul Woodreaders - I can always appreciate card draw in non-U/B colours, but there are better options available such as Harmonize or artifact card draw such as Mind's Eye, Skullclamp, etc.
Multi
Psychatog's usefulness is pretty limited in EDH, I think. He's a bomb in one-on-one, but in multiplayer he's just kind of meh.
Artifact Nightmare Lash - an awesome piece of equipment, it unfortunately gets overshadowed by the better artifacts available in the format.
Land Mouth of Ronom - like Nightmare Lash this is a great card overshadowed by the awesomeness of the other cards in the category.
These are all good cuts. I'll remove them and number the main list like you did here.
How are we going about this? Should I automatically cut what people suggest if I agree? Are we going to have a few votes? I don't quite know how to approach this. Thoughts?
How are we going about this? Should I automatically cut what people suggest if I agree? Are we going to have a few votes? I don't quite know how to approach this. Thoughts?
Let's go down to 25 cards of each colour. Once we're down to 25 it'll be a lot easier to organize and maintain. Then we can have discussions as to what cards should replace the ones currently on the list.
So I support norbert's suggestions. We can always put some back on the list later on, if people think they deserve a slot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like Elder Dragon Highlander? Check out theEDH deck databasewith more than 150 decks!
Well aren't I allowed at least to give my opinion?
Ok you convinced me for now, but if someone else thinks otherwise, it comes off. Fair?
Agreed. In!
i was thinking that you werent going to include it. Apparently i miss took your post.
I wasn't going to include it based on your initial post, but I thought you came back with good reasons, so I did. I just felt like you were getting defensive because I disagreed with you, and I wanted to tell you that that was not the case; you get to give your opinions and I get to give mine. Just because there will be times that I disagree with you and "veto" your decision doesn't mean you should never post your thoughts. Hope that clears it up. Thanks for your input!
I really like Rupture Spire in EDH, but maybe that's because I don't have a lot of rare lands.
I did not communicate clearly. I was wondering why it was included.
This is in fact a veto effect. Because you disagreed with my inclusion you were just not going to include it.
I respect your opinions on the card and anything else. But just because you disagree doesnt mean you should not include a card that someone posts on here. Everyone who posts a card has experience with the card in question and has found it to be good enough to be in a list for those looking for good staples.
Like i disagree with one or two of the cards on the list, that doesnt mean they should be removed.
I hope you try out Fiery Fall (the card that triggered this discussion) for yourself in red decks. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Also from that cycle [card]Traumatic Visions[card] managed to make it onto your list, and i have found that one to also be a good one.
Another card i view should be added is Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar. I have used Tomorrow in many decks to great avail. Especially with cards like Frantic Search and Brainstorm.
Because the Tower is very good. Many a time in this format i find myself with at least 10 cards in hand. Whether that be with cards like Opportunity or Slate of Ancestry. and a Spellbook that taps for mana, is really good. My opinion is that if you are not including the very best in card advantage in your decks, you're doing something wrong. I will note that a lot of the cards currently on the list are card advantage.
So to separate my ideas on what should go in from this post:
Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
Opportunity (noticed that Tidings is on there, but not its older Instant brother)
Stroke of Genius (noticed that Braingyser is on there, but not its newer (not by much, though) instant brother)
Reliquary Tower is incredible in EDH. Play is very slow and you often end up discarding due to hand size, especially since a lot of people play global draw effects. People actually play Spellbook and Library of Leng (which I don't condone, but they do) for the same reason. For the cost of a single colorless land, it's completely worth it, though.
Your argument is very reasonable, but here is my problem. How do I argue against the inclusion of a card (in an attempt to convince you) without you calling it a veto? I didn't intend for my comment to be the be-all-end-all comment that ends the discussion. I wanted to open up a dialogue (which we did) in hope that the discussion would end with a mutual agreement (which it did). Similarly, please let me know the cards on the list already that you might remove if given the opportunity. I would thoroughly enjoy having intellectual discussions on their merits.
Completely agree on all of these. Actually, I wasn't originally including legends (which is why Tomorrow wasn't there), but recently decided to remove that restriction, so the list is missing almost every good legend out there. We need to amend that.
The ones I felt shoudn't be included are:
Counterbalance - Too conditional for EDH. Only great as a lock with Top, and maybe too difficult to find in a 100 card singleton deck. Even if you did, with so many players it would be difficult to have enough mana to do all the manipulation you would need to, and even if you were able to, the hugely variable converted mana costs in the format would doom you.
Corpse Dance - A great card in the right deck, but this list is intended to be cards that are great and should at least be considered for every single (fill in the color) deck that you make. I don't feel that Corpse Dance meets that criterion.
Entomb, Death Cloud, Dread Return, Makeshift Mannequin, Pox - See above. Conditional cards for certain specific types of decks. I did, however, include Animate Dead and Necromancy, mainly because they can target opponents' graveyards, too.
Barbed Shocker - I don't see the value in this one unless you're running an Underworld Dreams combo or something. Is there a generic, good use for this that I'm unaware of?
Azorius Guildmage - I'm very down on tap effects in EDH (hence no Icy Manipulator on the list) and it's going to take a lot to convince me otherwise. Reason being, essentially, is that you have to decide whether or not to tap a would-be attacking creature before the attacking target is declared. This is a very bad thing in terms of diplomacy. As for the countering activated abilities part, it's good, but I don't think it's worth it for a little 2/2 that requires you to keep a siginficant amount of mana open. I could be swayed on this one, so if someone can back this dude up, let me know.
Gauntlet of Might - A great card, no doubt, but too expensive ($$) to include here. Not accessible for most players. I don't have a set dollar amount limit, but if I did, it would be somewhere around $25 at the absolute maximum I think.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
I agree. Good ones, thanks!
I am John Galt.
I guess the way you argue against the inclusion of a card is by starting your argument with the line "i will include the card, but..." because that shows good faith. it doesnt make the argument feel like i have to win or the card wont be included just because you (the only man who can include cards) have control. Wanting a discussion about a card is good. and from your position it is hard to not come off as a veto when you are the one in control. But when it comes to cards, you need to be more open minded and maybe post that you would prefer more information on why the card should be in. But not come off as you will not include it.
Good start, i will give my opinions on the cards in question.
I agree with this. it is very hard in 100 card singleton to have the manipulation needed to make it work. Especially considering you see cards ranging costs from 0-10 in a lot of decks. I personally include cards all over the cost map. so Counterbalance may hit 1 out of every 10 or so times, but i think those are higher odds than it would actually be in practice.
This too i agree with not including. if it wasnt top creature, it would be worth while. but with the restriction, not as much. maybe a Kresh deck with lots of good sac outlets would be able to take advantage of it properly, but with it only good for a very few commanders, i support its not being included.
Entomb: Agree
Death Cloud: On the fence. this can work out as a good Panic Button. maybe not good enough to be on the list of staples. but i think most black decks can really use it well.
Dread Return and Mannequin: These two i disagree with you on. especially Mannequin. Recursion in this format is better than it is in any other format. because with only one of each card, the ability to reuse the best ones is major. Mannequin being instant speed makes it very big. and most the things that would target it are either going to kill it anyway, or are preventing your opponent from getting a benefit from it, like good creature enchantments and so forth. Sure it can turn Evolution Charm into a kill card, but Mannequin is still one of the best reanimate spells out there (mostly due to it being instant speed.) Speaking of Evolution Charm, that should be on there. as it is also so versatile being able to give evasion, act like an instant Raise Dead, or color fix/get out of mana screw. i have had all 3 options win games in both standard (before the rotation) and EDH.
Pox: Agreed. i dont think this is good enough to be on the list. its a little bit to global to really be useful enough to be on a staples list.
I am with you on this one too. Barbed Shocker isnt powerful enough to be a staple. in a deck trying to take advantage of Dreams/the one from Shadowmoor it could do really well. but outside that, not really.
I disagree, i have had this little guildmage wreck me many times. its because in such a slow format, the poly ability to tap down guys is pretty big. and its counter effect can stop many things dead. like Legacy Weapon, another card that has been the bane of my existence. Or planeswalkers, such as Nicol. it may not be good enough to be a staple. but i think it should have an honorable mention.
Gauntlet of Power, now we're talking. and its only a dollar rare. For mono colored decks, i could see this as a good inclusion.
I will try to be more open-minded. Thanks for the constructive conversation.
I'm sold. Reanimators in. Evolution Charm in.
I'm going to have to try him out. In.
I believe it's already in.
:symg::symu: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
My 2 cents.
Do you like Elder Dragon Highlander? Check out the EDH deck database with more than 150 decks!
Cards I'm selling!!
EDH
UArcanis the Omnipotent
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage
UBRNicol Bolas
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
I've relabeled the list of cards to include numbers, to show how many cards have to be cut from each slot. I think the best way to approach this is to look each cards from 26-onwards, and ask why it belongs in one of the 1-25 slots instead.
I'll start off with a cut from each colour:
White
Gift of Estates - Land Tax and Tithe are better options
Blue
Telemin Performance - a poor man's Bribery. For 5 mana and a card this could net you an Eager Cadet, and so I don't think it belongs on this list
Black
Reanimate - this card is too narrow in scope and requires a lot of set up to be played in the first few turns, before it is obsoleted by Zombify and co.
Red
Shunt - Fork, Reiterate and Wild Ricochet are already on the list. Shunt does not cut it by comparison.
Green
Citanul Woodreaders - I can always appreciate card draw in non-U/B colours, but there are better options available such as Harmonize or artifact card draw such as Mind's Eye, Skullclamp, etc.
Multi
Psychatog's usefulness is pretty limited in EDH, I think. He's a bomb in one-on-one, but in multiplayer he's just kind of meh.
Artifact
Nightmare Lash - an awesome piece of equipment, it unfortunately gets overshadowed by the better artifacts available in the format.
Land
Mouth of Ronom - like Nightmare Lash this is a great card overshadowed by the awesomeness of the other cards in the category.
Do you like Elder Dragon Highlander? Check out the EDH deck database with more than 150 decks!
Cards I'm selling!!
EDH
UArcanis the Omnipotent
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage
UBRNicol Bolas
These are all good cuts. I'll remove them and number the main list like you did here.
White:
Pariah
Purify
Blue:
Fathom Trawl
Knowledge Exploitation
Black:
Twisted Abomination
Chainer's Edict
Red:
Rakka Mar
Flametongue Kavu
Green:
Noble Hierarch
Rancor
Multi:
Malfegor
Skyward Eye Prophets
Artifact:
Farsight Mask
Aether Vial
Land:
Mutavault
Winding Canyons
norbert88
Official EDH Forums
Member of Team Revolution
Jinxed Idols Podcast
Follow Me on Twitter!
Let's go down to 25 cards of each colour. Once we're down to 25 it'll be a lot easier to organize and maintain. Then we can have discussions as to what cards should replace the ones currently on the list.
So I support norbert's suggestions. We can always put some back on the list later on, if people think they deserve a slot.
Do you like Elder Dragon Highlander? Check out the EDH deck database with more than 150 decks!
Cards I'm selling!!
EDH
UArcanis the Omnipotent
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage
UBRNicol Bolas