Really just depends on the playgroup, and the playgroup's access to cards. People I play with don't have the money or desire to buy Survival/Cradle, so that's not a problem, but then if one person shows up with those, and Gifts, and all these other broken cards, it becomes unfun for everyone else. It's impossible to balance things like this perfectly.
Thats more like what I'm talking about. If everyone's cardpools are balanced power-wise it is much easier to deal with.
In my opinion there is absolutely no reason why anyone should "water down" their decks.
There...you forgot that part.
There's plenty of good reasons to water down a deck; first and formost is that this format is a casual multiplayer format. Including ways to combo out at lightspeed may be enjoyable to some, but it usually tends to ruin things for the rest of the table who showed up to play a big, fun game, spent a bunch of time gathering everyone, getting seated, shuffling, mulliganing, re-shuffling, and finally just barely starting to play before you end things.
Try doing that a few more times, and the average reaction tends to be one of the following:
A) No-one wants to play EDH anymore.
B) No-one wants to play against *you* anymore.
C) You end up auto-hated just for revealing your general before the game.
All three result in you not getting to play your deck. Which is no fun at all.
I had a heavily-tuned Sharuum build that lasted all of a game or two before I pulled out some of the heavier combo elements for other options. It took several games, but I can now sit with my playgroup and not have everyone insta-aim their hate at me anymore. Lesson learned. Now, for any tournies or 1v1 games, I'll re-add the combo elements. But for the most part, it's way more fun all around not to have to deal with that.
What do you guys feel about Tunnel Vision? I don't mind cards that put the general on the bottom - as that is easy to fix. But Tunnel Vision breaks those cards in an almost unfair way. There are answers for this yes, but not all decks can run counterspells. I also find it almost unfair when I Tunnel Vision myself for Roar of Reclamation :).
@ Oven
I have lost to tunnel vision once, and only because I clashed on lashout and put my card on the bottom. I even knew he had tunnel vision in his hand. I'm bad like that.
I am annoyed at gifts being banned, because I just used it to get good cards. I played it in Thraximundar and would get Nicol Bolas Plainswalker, Decree of Pain, Cryptic Command and Forbid more often than not. It was just an instant speed tutor in my deck, and I'm annoyed its gone.
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um.....i know its an anoying general but y is braids banned? i really fail to see the point to that esp. having just unbanned rofellos
Extreme consistency, and the possibility of winning games so fast that other decks cannot answer it. Also the fact that it single-handedly stops some generals and archetypes from being competitive.
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claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
@ Oven
I have lost to tunnel vision once, and only because I clashed on lashout and put my card on the bottom. I even knew he had tunnel vision in his hand. I'm bad like that.
I am annoyed at gifts being banned, because I just used it to get good cards. I played it in Thraximundar and would get Nicol Bolas Plainswalker, Decree of Pain, Cryptic Command and Forbid more often than not. It was just an instant speed tutor in my deck, and I'm annoyed its gone.
While it is an instant speed tutor and can be used for purposes that aren't "evil" as some would put it, it allows for entirely waaaay too many shenanigans that people can abuse. Tutoring up all your combo pieces and ways to get them out of the gy is just too good.
Also, Fastbond definitely needed to be banned. Crucible was justly unbanned, leaving fastbond as the problem in the whole cycle of combos. Without fastbond, things get a little more even (and Crucible isn't absolutely ridiculous).
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well, now i'm confused. The banning list that is on our page for EDH info says the Crucible is still banned.
Plus, on the note of Braids: I never played against Braids too much, but I can understand why she is a pain in the butt. And, with me and my casual playgroup, we consider any card ever printed as legal, so that won't really affect me. But, whenever I did have someone using Braids in a game, i just popped her off with whatever random burn spell i got. (cuz usually, i lean towards a Heartless Hide deck for real life play)
When I get to modo's EDH format though, that's gona be different story. Luckily, i never built a Braids deck for online.
I support the Gifts Ungiven banning. Not having played against Braids or fastbond, I can't comment on those. But I think banning gifts allows some of the "unfun" combos to not get banned. I guess Mindslaver/Academy Ruins isn't so bad if you have to depend on drawing the two peices rather than fetchig them out with Gifts.
meh, my group has been playing with Gifts and Fastbond banned for about six months now, I suppose we are just ahead of the curve. I'm not sure how I feel about Braids though, my knee-jerk reaction is to be adamantly in favor of the ban because I have seen Braids in action, but at the same time I don't like the fact that everyone who has Braids decks can no longer use them legally. If they are banning Braids, who is to say that Zur will not soon follow suit (since he is on par with her power level) and it is due to the prevalance of Braids and Rofellos decks that keeps Zur in check. This same logic can be applied to a handful of other generals including Rofellos which seems even more odd to me now that they unbanned it. I just don't want the format to turn into Dan Gray with a HUGE banlist because people whine that they got beat by something good :rolleyes:.
meh, my group has been playing with Gifts and Fastbond banned for about six months now, I suppose we are just ahead of the curve. I'm not sure how I feel about Braids though, my knee-jerk reaction is to be adamantly in favor of the ban because I have seen Braids in action, but at the same time I don't like the fact that everyone who has Braids decks can no longer use them legally. If they are banning Braids, who is to say that Zur will not soon follow suit (since he is on par with her power level) and it is due to the prevalance of Braids and Rofellos decks that keeps Zur in check. This same logic can be applied to a handful of other generals including Rofellos which seems even more odd to me now that they unbanned it. I just don't want the format to turn into Dan Gray with a HUGE banlist because people whine that they got beat by something good :rolleyes:.
Infact, Zur is what keeps Braids in check. One swing from zur can easily spell out GG for the braids player: Bitterblossom. Aura of Silence doesn't help Braids, either. In addition, rather big part of Zur's power comes from his colours.
Rofellos, likewise, is really good general against Braids. Free mana-elf at all times ensures some speed to fight Braids, and green can run some really good token generators. Zur, on the other hand, has relatively good game against Rofellos.
It's the bunch of extremely explosive decks that keep zur in check. When played correctly, it is most probably the best general, yes. It is, however, really hard to play correctly, even moreso in EDH where you don't know what all your opponents' decks include. With zur you need to act pre-emptively on the threats and andswers, which is rather hard against decks that use some really, really weird winconditions - Instant speed combos are pretty damn hard to stop, as is Jhoira.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Thats kinda my point is that there are "top tier" generals that keep one another in check. Now that Braids is gone, I think it is safe to say that others, ie Zur, is probably being very closely monitored. It wouldn't surprise me to see Rofellos being re-banned in the not so distant future.
Braids had a pretty decent shot at Zur if it came online fast enough, which, considering most builds was pretty consistent. Zur cannot effectively attack until turn 4 at the earliest with mana accel/greaves and that is plenty of time for Braids to set up shop. If Braids got a slow start, Zur had the advantage. Likewise, Rofellos can have a good game against Zur if it can lay some early fat and pack some sort of enchantment removal into the creature base.
Holy **** no Braids is going to PISS OFF some people. Braids is a fairly popular general, with a lot of devout users. ofc, im sorta happy with it, bc Braids is one of the toughest and most hard generals to face, but mostly the least fun. a braids lock is incredibly annoying and boring. I can see why people would be sad.
Gifts, I have to agree with. Gifts is the most powerful tutor in EDH (actually i slightly prefer Demonic, but Gifts is more powerful bc it gives card advantage and stocks your GY) in not only the most powerful color in EDH, in one that SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO TUTOR LOL. I'll be sad to take it out of one of my mere 2 paper EDH decks (i plan EDH decks a lot more than i build them) as its a very powerful spell. Sure, it doesn't straight out win games. But i agree that it is a good step in the slight depowering Blue deserves. Gifts is instant speed card draw, tutoring, and graveyard stocking power (in EDH where GY recursion is INCREDIBLY common). It's a very strong card, and i see their reasoning.
I've never seen fastbond in action, but i like its banning, with the strip mine/wasteland and crucible unbanned, it turns that combo into I win. Admittedly its not the most powerful combo, but its very annoying to play against (i assume xD)
The banning of Braids is very interesting. Braids hasn't been "dominating" play by any means, its just one of the top few generals. You have to wonder what will happen to Zur, who especially with the banning of Braids is the best solo (and probably multiplayer) general. I havnt seen much Rofellos in action, but i think Rofellos players aswell should be a bit careful before foiling their decks. I doubt he or Zur will be banned, but its a real possibility.
Thank you Zulo for clarifying what I was trying to say about this potentially setting a dangerous precedent. I however did not mean to suggest that one was better than the other, just that they comprise the top tier of EDH general options. There is little that one can do against a turn 2-3 Braids followed by Crucible and/or Bitterblossom other than hope to god that you have an immediate and cheap answer in hand.
I almost feel that they sould be banning the enabler cards, not the generals themselves. More often than not they are pretty good about doing so. However, some generals are the enablers in and of themselves.
Any idea if Dagson will be banned or at least a possibility? I'm attempting to foil him out. The deck is ridiculous at the moment. You run the best broken spells in MTG in that deck. Mind Over Matter, Academy, Titan, Mana Drain, Memory Jar etc.
Any idea if Winter Orb might be banned? Seems really OP and one-sided when it hits play (i.e. in Dagson decks).
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I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
It is likely not the intention of the RDH Rules Committee to ban every top general one at a time. What they would like to see would be a fairly large number of "top" competitive generals that are more-or-less balanced.
I'm not sure what kind of grasp they have on what those top generals are, but with the banning of Gifts Ungiven and Tinker, it would seem that there is an attempt to lessen the power level of blue-capable decks in order to keep those EDH decks from getting above an acceptable power level.
The generals to be banned are ones that cannot be reasonably balanced by removing cards from within the deck. For example, Arcum Dagsson as a general has been weakened with the recent bannings, but there is no easy way to balance Braids, Cabal Minion as a general, so it had to be banned.
I'm not a fan of the Braids ban. Braids doesn't break the format. It did help define it. I'm not sure I agree that forcing decks to run some instant speed creature removal is ban-worthy. The fact that the people in charge of edh think so makes me worry about its future. Banning generals because people don't like playing against them is an extremely slippery slope.
I'm not a fan of the Braids ban. Braids doesn't break the format. It did help define it. I'm not sure I agree that forcing decks to run some instant speed creature removal is ban-worthy. The fact that the people in charge of edh think so makes me worry about its future. Banning generals because people don't like playing against them is an extremely slippery slope.
It's not so much that people don't like playing against them (but I would suspect that people don't like playing against braids), but that said general provides a more or less "lock" on turn 4. Being able to do that every game isn't what EDH is about.
Sure there are other broken generals, but being that this card doesn't really need anything to be a broken general aside from itself is what made it banworthy, IMO.
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Thats more like what I'm talking about. If everyone's cardpools are balanced power-wise it is much easier to deal with.
There...you forgot that part.
There's plenty of good reasons to water down a deck; first and formost is that this format is a casual multiplayer format. Including ways to combo out at lightspeed may be enjoyable to some, but it usually tends to ruin things for the rest of the table who showed up to play a big, fun game, spent a bunch of time gathering everyone, getting seated, shuffling, mulliganing, re-shuffling, and finally just barely starting to play before you end things.
Try doing that a few more times, and the average reaction tends to be one of the following:
A) No-one wants to play EDH anymore.
B) No-one wants to play against *you* anymore.
C) You end up auto-hated just for revealing your general before the game.
All three result in you not getting to play your deck. Which is no fun at all.
I had a heavily-tuned Sharuum build that lasted all of a game or two before I pulled out some of the heavier combo elements for other options. It took several games, but I can now sit with my playgroup and not have everyone insta-aim their hate at me anymore. Lesson learned. Now, for any tournies or 1v1 games, I'll re-add the combo elements. But for the most part, it's way more fun all around not to have to deal with that.
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I have lost to tunnel vision once, and only because I clashed on lashout and put my card on the bottom. I even knew he had tunnel vision in his hand. I'm bad like that.
I am annoyed at gifts being banned, because I just used it to get good cards. I played it in Thraximundar and would get Nicol Bolas Plainswalker, Decree of Pain, Cryptic Command and Forbid more often than not. It was just an instant speed tutor in my deck, and I'm annoyed its gone.
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And Braids is banned for good reason. If you get turn 2-4 Braids, it can be impossible for anyone to keep up.
Extreme consistency, and the possibility of winning games so fast that other decks cannot answer it. Also the fact that it single-handedly stops some generals and archetypes from being competitive.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
While it is an instant speed tutor and can be used for purposes that aren't "evil" as some would put it, it allows for entirely waaaay too many shenanigans that people can abuse. Tutoring up all your combo pieces and ways to get them out of the gy is just too good.
Also, Fastbond definitely needed to be banned. Crucible was justly unbanned, leaving fastbond as the problem in the whole cycle of combos. Without fastbond, things get a little more even (and Crucible isn't absolutely ridiculous).
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Plus, on the note of Braids: I never played against Braids too much, but I can understand why she is a pain in the butt. And, with me and my casual playgroup, we consider any card ever printed as legal, so that won't really affect me. But, whenever I did have someone using Braids in a game, i just popped her off with whatever random burn spell i got. (cuz usually, i lean towards a Heartless Hide deck for real life play)
When I get to modo's EDH format though, that's gona be different story. Luckily, i never built a Braids deck for online.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Infact, Zur is what keeps Braids in check. One swing from zur can easily spell out GG for the braids player: Bitterblossom. Aura of Silence doesn't help Braids, either. In addition, rather big part of Zur's power comes from his colours.
Rofellos, likewise, is really good general against Braids. Free mana-elf at all times ensures some speed to fight Braids, and green can run some really good token generators. Zur, on the other hand, has relatively good game against Rofellos.
It's the bunch of extremely explosive decks that keep zur in check. When played correctly, it is most probably the best general, yes. It is, however, really hard to play correctly, even moreso in EDH where you don't know what all your opponents' decks include. With zur you need to act pre-emptively on the threats and andswers, which is rather hard against decks that use some really, really weird winconditions - Instant speed combos are pretty damn hard to stop, as is Jhoira.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Braids had a pretty decent shot at Zur if it came online fast enough, which, considering most builds was pretty consistent. Zur cannot effectively attack until turn 4 at the earliest with mana accel/greaves and that is plenty of time for Braids to set up shop. If Braids got a slow start, Zur had the advantage. Likewise, Rofellos can have a good game against Zur if it can lay some early fat and pack some sort of enchantment removal into the creature base.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Gifts, I have to agree with. Gifts is the most powerful tutor in EDH (actually i slightly prefer Demonic, but Gifts is more powerful bc it gives card advantage and stocks your GY) in not only the most powerful color in EDH, in one that SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO TUTOR LOL. I'll be sad to take it out of one of my mere 2 paper EDH decks (i plan EDH decks a lot more than i build them) as its a very powerful spell. Sure, it doesn't straight out win games. But i agree that it is a good step in the slight depowering Blue deserves. Gifts is instant speed card draw, tutoring, and graveyard stocking power (in EDH where GY recursion is INCREDIBLY common). It's a very strong card, and i see their reasoning.
I've never seen fastbond in action, but i like its banning, with the strip mine/wasteland and crucible unbanned, it turns that combo into I win. Admittedly its not the most powerful combo, but its very annoying to play against (i assume xD)
The banning of Braids is very interesting. Braids hasn't been "dominating" play by any means, its just one of the top few generals. You have to wonder what will happen to Zur, who especially with the banning of Braids is the best solo (and probably multiplayer) general. I havnt seen much Rofellos in action, but i think Rofellos players aswell should be a bit careful before foiling their decks. I doubt he or Zur will be banned, but its a real possibility.
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I almost feel that they sould be banning the enabler cards, not the generals themselves. More often than not they are pretty good about doing so. However, some generals are the enablers in and of themselves.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Any idea if Winter Orb might be banned? Seems really OP and one-sided when it hits play (i.e. in Dagson decks).
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
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I'm not sure what kind of grasp they have on what those top generals are, but with the banning of Gifts Ungiven and Tinker, it would seem that there is an attempt to lessen the power level of blue-capable decks in order to keep those EDH decks from getting above an acceptable power level.
The generals to be banned are ones that cannot be reasonably balanced by removing cards from within the deck. For example, Arcum Dagsson as a general has been weakened with the recent bannings, but there is no easy way to balance Braids, Cabal Minion as a general, so it had to be banned.
For instance, Curiousity for Niv Mizzet.
I don't know if that would save any of the banned cards this time around. Seems Fastbond would be good in any number of decks.
Its ok, you still have Sakashima the Imposter and Empress Galina. So you can still live the dream comrade.
It's not so much that people don't like playing against them (but I would suspect that people don't like playing against braids), but that said general provides a more or less "lock" on turn 4. Being able to do that every game isn't what EDH is about.
Sure there are other broken generals, but being that this card doesn't really need anything to be a broken general aside from itself is what made it banworthy, IMO.
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