Ok, this is another question regarding yet another bizarre situation that would only come up in EDH (that's why I posted here instead of the Ruling Forums...seemed more appropriate...sorry if it's not mods) Here's the situation:
I Threaten my opponent's Child of Alara, attack, and then sacrifice it to my Goblin Bombardment. The issue is this: the Child was my friend's EDH general, so he has the option to RFG it if it were to be put into the graveyard. Now, what I'm wondering is, since I controled the Child when it was sacrificed, would I be the one to chose if it hits the yard or is RFG'd?
How about some opinions? My friends were debating this for a bit before we decided to just blow up everything and keep playing, but we were far from reaching a consensus (we just wanted to finish the game).
Your opponent would choose, afterall it would be going to his graveyard after you sacrifice it. He then has the option to use the replacement effect and RFG it, or let it go to the grave and blow up the world.
Well our play group uses a general rule where generals hit the graveyard, then are forcibly removed from the game. This way all goes to graveyard effects happen as they should happen in a regular game of Magic.
Very true there Risk. Since the RFG is a replacement effect, it would have to have a certain time to trigger, which would logically be when the general would be put into a graveyard.
This confusion could be avoided by simplifying the EDH rules. I think that instead of a big list of rules surrounding generals, we should just say that any creature that is chosen as a general gains a static ability. Now we need a keyword....let's call it "General" (original, I know). How about this:
General (This creature begins the game removed from the game. You may play it for it's mana cost any time you could normally play it. If this creature would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, you may instead remove it from the game and add an eternity counter to it. When you play this creature, you must pay an additional for each its eternity counters. Effects that cause a creature to lose abilities do not cause it to lose "General".)
I guess that's technically a static and a triggered ability, but whatever. We would probably have to say that the eternity counters stay removed from the game to avoid any nonsense.
(incidentally, I wasn't the one that tried to pull off that little move...I was just watching the game, and I thought it was worth discussing)
Since this is a casual format, I say it should be a house rule call. Personally I think the controller of the card should get to sac it to the GY since that's how the card would normally be played in regular magic, and once it hits the GY the owner can remove from game if they choose to. I think this is fair that way the person who steals it and sacs it can get the full benefit from it that they normally would. Just a suggestion, but let us know what you guys come up with.
See the problem with letting the opponent decide whether or not the general is RFG'ed or not is that many EDH decks to some extent rely to some extent on their general. The whole reason they begin the game in the RFG zone is so that it is basically an extension of your hand, available for you to play when you work your way up to the CMC. The whole idea is to have access to your general. For some decks this would make the general nigh impossible to get back...ever. This would be seriously crippling to any blue and/or red deck since their options are extremely limited. Then you wind up with a whole bunch of people running sub-optimal cards to be able to have an answer to it, all the while losing potency of their deck.
As I understand it, the graveyard replacement effect rule would essentially read: "If "General" would be put into your graveyard from play, you may remove it from the game instead."
See the problem with letting the opponent decide whether or not the general is RFG'ed or not is that many EDH decks to some extent rely to some extent on their general. The whole reason they begin the game in the RFG zone is so that it is basically an extension of your hand, available for you to play when you work your way up to the CMC. The whole idea is to have access to your general. For some decks this would make the general nigh impossible to get back...ever. This would be seriously crippling to any blue and/or red deck since their options are extremely limited. Then you wind up with a whole bunch of people running sub-optimal cards to be able to have an answer to it, all the while losing potency of their deck.
That's exactly why I wanted to discuss this actually. Most of my decks have one way or another to steal creatures (what can I say...I'm a jerk) so this could be a potentially devastating tactic for me to use. If I had the option to send a mono blue or red deck's general to the yard, you better believe I would (and good luck getting it back). As you say, we would end up with everyone just running decks full of 'answers' and nobody having any fun.
As I understand it, the graveyard replacement effect rule would essentially read: "If "General" would be put into your graveyard from play, you may remove it from the game instead."
This brings up an interesting point: how do people feel about being allowed to RFG your general if you would discard it? That's why I worded the "General" ability above the way I did; it becomes a triggered ability that triggers any time a general would be put into a graveyard (kinda like DSC's shuffle).
I play the steal and sac a lot (probably run at least 6 decks with that theme), and I concur that it would be a very strong tactic if you could send the general to the GY. I think its a no-brainer that the owner would choose.
you lose control of any card as soon as it hits their graveyard. so he has the choice to rfg child.
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:symr::symg:Burning Elf Ball:symg::symr:
EDH
:symg:Omnath, The big green mana machine:snow:
:symr:Ashling:snow: 1v1 non-french
:symuw::symru::symrb::symgb::symgw:Pauper Child:symwr::symbw::symub::symgu::symrg:
:symg:Ruric Thar, 6 TO THE FACE!!:gruul:
Under Construction
:symu:Lord of Tressurehorn:symbr: Grixis Control
:symbr:Olivia Voldaren:rakdos: Almost mono black Control
:symbu::symbg::symgu:Progenitus:symwr: 5 Color Stompy Toolbox
As I understand the rules of EDH, it is the choice of the person who owns the General to decide whether the General goes to the Graveyard or is removed from the game:
Quote from EDH Rules »
10. If a General would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner may remove it from the game instead. (This is a replacement effect.. the creature never goes to the graveyard and will not trigger abilities on going to the graveyard)
you lose control of any card as soon as it hits their graveyard. so he has the choice to rfg child.
Correction, in the case of General's you would lose control of the card as soon as it leaves play, but before it touches the graveyard. This is because the replacement effect would occur before it touches the graveyard.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
As I understand it, the graveyard replacement effect rule would essentially read: "If "General" would be put into your graveyard from play, you may remove it from the game instead."
To quote myself and offer an addenda, this should read: "If "General would be put into a graveyard from ANYWHERE, you may remove it from the game instead."
To quote myself and offer an addenda, this should read: "If "General would be put into a graveyard from ANYWHERE, you may remove it from the game instead."
It should actually read "If a General would be put into the graveyard from anywhere, its owner may remove it from the game instead."
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
This confusion could be avoided by simplifying the EDH rules. I think that instead of a big list of rules surrounding generals, we should just say that any creature that is chosen as a general gains a static ability. Now we need a keyword....let's call it "General" (original, I know). How about this:
General (This creature begins the game removed from the game. You may play it for it's mana cost any time you could normally play it. If this creature would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, you may instead remove it from the game and add an eternity counter to it. When you play this creature, you must pay an additional for each its eternity counters. Effects that cause a creature to lose abilities do not cause it to lose "General".)
.....
Don't you love it when everyone is saying the same thing, but nobody is listening to each other?
I agree that the bold above should read "owner" rather than "you"....that's a rather important distinction.
... and you should precise "When you play this creature from the removed from the game zone, you must pay an additional...".
That's an interesting point actually. The way we play in my group, if you play your general from your hand for some reason, you play it for its CMC and disregard any additional cost from playing it previously. I assume that's what you mean by the above stipulation.
The "eternity counter" thing I mentioned earlier could get a little messy. There would have to be a whole set of conditions and rules regarding just the counters. It was just an idea to help keep track of the number of times the general has been played.
Don't you love it when everyone is saying the same thing, but nobody is listening to each other?
A couple posts up someone posted what I believe to be the rule from the EDH rules. Are you proposing a general keyword, which reitterates what the rules say? Is this simplifying something? Maybe I'm missing the point?
A couple posts up someone posted what I believe to be the rule from the EDH rules. Are you proposing a general keyword, which reitterates what the rules say? Is this simplifying something? Maybe I'm missing the point?
I am confused.
......
Well, Emerson did say "to be great is to be misunderstood" ....:p
Only joking
Seriously though, I wasn't proposing the keyword ability in addition to the rules, I just meant that rather than have 3 separate rules in the rules section outlining the way a general works (I'm going by the sticky in this forum, not the "official" EDH page), we could instead just say that whatever creature one chooses as their general, gains said ability. I understand that all of this information lies within the rules as they are stated, but perhaps condensing them into an ability would make it easier for new players to understand (keyword abilities are something magic players are familiar with).
Anyway, it's just an idea. I realize, of course, that we would need to tweak the wording of the ability as I stated it earlier (not to mention a better name :ugh:), but I think it's pretty close, if I do say so myself.
(keyword abilities are something magic players are familiar with)
They also tend to be paraphrased from the official comprehensive rules which tend to on their own be much more drawn out and complicated.
View the "Official EDH rules" (which can be found here) more along the lines of the Elder Dragon Highlander Comprehensive Rulings.
Meanwhile the Keyword you are proposing (which could probably be shortened quite a bit to make it less clunky) is instead what would appear on a card if a card were ever printed for the sole purpose of being an Elder Dragon Highlander General.
Make sense?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I think paraphrasing all of the relevant general based rules into a comprehensive keyword ability is great. The problem is like DC said, it needs to really be streamlined. I don't like the addition of the "eternity counters" as on the surface they may be helpful for keeping track, but make the "general" connotation more complicated by adding yet another dimension with the counters themselves. For the most part, people do a pretty good job of keeping track from what I noticed. I don't see that as being much of a problem.
Yea, the 'eternity counter' thing, like I said before, was just kind of a passing thought that I had while typing up the ability. Just thought I'd throw it in there to see, but obviously that's mucking things up a bit. I realize that keywords aren't the be-all-end-all of rules, and that they're meant to be representative of a more extensive list, but that's really what I meant the 'general' keyword to be; just a quick reference that makes it quicker and easier to sum up the way generals work (still needs a much better name though :-/) So, you're right DC, we should keep the more detailed rulings, but this could possibly make things a bit easier to understand, or at least to explain. I mean, would you rather quote someone the comp rules for an ability, or rattle off the reminder text? And, of course, I would never expect an ability with such a narrow application to actually be printed on the cards (though it wouldn't be the worst ability WotC had ever printed).
Well then, how about this? (I'm just going to run with 'general' as the name for now...any suggestions are welcome)
General(This creature begins removed from the game. You may play this creature from the removed from the game zone any time that you could normally play it. If you do, you must pay an additional for each time that it has previously been played this way. If this creature would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, it's owner may chose to remove it from the game instead.)
It may seem a bit long, but keep in mind that I'm trying to sum up 3 different rules from the rules section in one ability.
Wow, this thread has digressed pretty far from the original topic. I'd be happy to continue this discussion under the 'rules/faq' sticky if any one wants too. If the mods want to, feel free to close this thread.
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I Threaten my opponent's Child of Alara, attack, and then sacrifice it to my Goblin Bombardment. The issue is this: the Child was my friend's EDH general, so he has the option to RFG it if it were to be put into the graveyard. Now, what I'm wondering is, since I controled the Child when it was sacrificed, would I be the one to chose if it hits the yard or is RFG'd?
How about some opinions? My friends were debating this for a bit before we decided to just blow up everything and keep playing, but we were far from reaching a consensus (we just wanted to finish the game).
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
This confusion could be avoided by simplifying the EDH rules. I think that instead of a big list of rules surrounding generals, we should just say that any creature that is chosen as a general gains a static ability. Now we need a keyword....let's call it "General" (original, I know). How about this:
(incidentally, I wasn't the one that tried to pull off that little move...I was just watching the game, and I thought it was worth discussing)
As I understand it, the graveyard replacement effect rule would essentially read: "If "General" would be put into your graveyard from play, you may remove it from the game instead."
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I play the steal and sac a lot (probably run at least 6 decks with that theme), and I concur that it would be a very strong tactic if you could send the general to the GY. I think its a no-brainer that the owner would choose.
:symr::symg:Burning Elf Ball:symg::symr:
EDH
:symg:Omnath, The big green mana machine:snow:
:symr:Ashling:snow: 1v1 non-french
:symuw::symru::symrb::symgb::symgw:Pauper Child:symwr::symbw::symub::symgu::symrg:
:symg:Ruric Thar, 6 TO THE FACE!!:gruul:
Under Construction
:symu:Lord of Tressurehorn:symbr: Grixis Control
:symbr:Olivia Voldaren:rakdos: Almost mono black Control
:symbu::symbg::symgu:Progenitus:symwr: 5 Color Stompy Toolbox
Seems pretty cut and dry to me...
Correction, in the case of General's you would lose control of the card as soon as it leaves play, but before it touches the graveyard. This is because the replacement effect would occur before it touches the graveyard.
To quote myself and offer an addenda, this should read: "If "General would be put into a graveyard from ANYWHERE, you may remove it from the game instead."
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
It should actually read "If a General would be put into the graveyard from anywhere, its owner may remove it from the game instead."
Don't you love it when everyone is saying the same thing, but nobody is listening to each other?
I agree that the bold above should read "owner" rather than "you"....that's a rather important distinction.
That's an interesting point actually. The way we play in my group, if you play your general from your hand for some reason, you play it for its CMC and disregard any additional cost from playing it previously. I assume that's what you mean by the above stipulation.
The "eternity counter" thing I mentioned earlier could get a little messy. There would have to be a whole set of conditions and rules regarding just the counters. It was just an idea to help keep track of the number of times the general has been played.
A couple posts up someone posted what I believe to be the rule from the EDH rules. Are you proposing a general keyword, which reitterates what the rules say? Is this simplifying something? Maybe I'm missing the point?
I am confused.
......
Well, Emerson did say "to be great is to be misunderstood" ....:p
Only joking
Seriously though, I wasn't proposing the keyword ability in addition to the rules, I just meant that rather than have 3 separate rules in the rules section outlining the way a general works (I'm going by the sticky in this forum, not the "official" EDH page), we could instead just say that whatever creature one chooses as their general, gains said ability. I understand that all of this information lies within the rules as they are stated, but perhaps condensing them into an ability would make it easier for new players to understand (keyword abilities are something magic players are familiar with).
Anyway, it's just an idea. I realize, of course, that we would need to tweak the wording of the ability as I stated it earlier (not to mention a better name :ugh:), but I think it's pretty close, if I do say so myself.
They also tend to be paraphrased from the official comprehensive rules which tend to on their own be much more drawn out and complicated.
View the "Official EDH rules" (which can be found here) more along the lines of the Elder Dragon Highlander Comprehensive Rulings.
Meanwhile the Keyword you are proposing (which could probably be shortened quite a bit to make it less clunky) is instead what would appear on a card if a card were ever printed for the sole purpose of being an Elder Dragon Highlander General.
Make sense?
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Well then, how about this? (I'm just going to run with 'general' as the name for now...any suggestions are welcome)
It may seem a bit long, but keep in mind that I'm trying to sum up 3 different rules from the rules section in one ability.
Wow, this thread has digressed pretty far from the original topic. I'd be happy to continue this discussion under the 'rules/faq' sticky if any one wants too. If the mods want to, feel free to close this thread.