Why is Recurring Nightmare banned. What was the reasoning behind this move. I don't see this card as being broken, I've played with it for years as a 4 of in 60 card decks. It seems its "power" is reduced as 1 in a 100. It just seems to me that there are far more powerful cards that aren't banned.
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Current EDH Decks :symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
I think it was collateral damage in the banning of Kukosho mainly. I think it's a fairly broken card, but the combo with Kuko was too much for the EDH gods to abide.
Before the banning, I put Nightmare in every EDH deck I played that had black and creatures, it is very, very abuse-able in EDH. I was sad to see it go but it was probably for the best.
Well if the decision was solely based on Koke, that seems weird to me. I get banning Koke, but removing koke seems to solve that problem. so what else could warrant its banning.
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Current EDH Decks :symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Well, Eternal Witness is the first card that comes to mind, but any creatures with graveyard or come into play triggers mesh very well with this card. Given that Green and Black are two of the best EDH colors, then the potential for abuse is high.
I guess my problem is that other cards that are abused heavily and aren't fun are legal
Example: Mindslaver + [card]Academy Ruins[/cards]. I play this, it is not fun for opponents, and it is not on their "watchlist". i'm sometimes surprised this combo isn't banned.
I look at the banned list and some card choices seem odd. (I realize no list could be perfect)
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Current EDH Decks :symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
I guess my problem is that other cards that are abused heavily and aren't fun are legal
Example: Mindslaver + [card]Academy Ruins[/cards]. I play this, it is not fun for opponents, and it is not on their "watchlist". i'm sometimes surprised this combo isn't banned.
I look at the banned list and some card choices seem odd. (I realize no list could be perfect)
Recurring Nightmare is banned because of the drastic effect it can have on games. Imagine Cloudgoat Ranger or Siege-Gang Commander. Sac tokens to get good stuff? Also, it's a free repeatable "blink" effect for 2B. Imagine it with Angel of Despair, Cloudgoat Ranger, Archon of Justice, Siege-Gang Commander and so much more. 2B: Remove target permanent from the game? I don't think so. Momentary Blink and Mistmeadow Witch are already good, and they're short-term or easy to remove.
graveyard hate will solve that problem. There are counterspells, discard, and Krosan Grip to deal with it as well. yes it can become degenerate, but many other cards become degenerate.
Angel of Despair/ archon of Justice is EXACTLY why i want to play it.(sarcasm)
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Current EDH Decks :symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Yosei, Keiga, Karmic Guide, Reveillark & Mulldrifter, but mostly just Yosei. There are just too many broken things to reanimate/kill repeatedly. How about having it in a Child of Alara deck? But is it really more broken than Gifts Ungiven and Survival of the Fittest? I think that is the real question here.
Technically, Krosan Grip does not solve the problem because you can activate it immediately after playing it without passing priority. I agree that more than anything, Nightmare was collateral damage with Kokusho but it's brokenness goes far beyond that. Palinchron, Yosei, the Morning Star, etc.
graveyard hate will solve that problem. There are counterspells, discard, and Krosan Grip to deal with it as well. yes it can become degenerate, but many other cards become degenerate.
Angel of Despair/ archon of Justice is EXACTLY why i want to play it.(sarcasm)
Hmmm... I'd think that Angel of Despair + Archon of Justice combo is pretty scary.
GY hate is relatively sparse, and not something that you want to completely load a deck up with.
Krosan Grip is the only enchantment kill that can reliably get rid of it.
There isn't a lot of good discard for EDH. Most of it targets a single player or doesn't let you choose what cards are discarded. That's not to say a discard strategy can't be effective, but hand nuke cards aren't something that can drop into just any deck.
Similar situation for counterspells. There's a couple counters that you can drop into a deck that is heavy blue, but relatively speaking, countermagic isn't viable for a majority of decks.
I don't know that the presence of arguably degenerate cards suggests another degenerate card should be allowed in the format.
I'm not saying that Recurring Nightmare is overpowered, just that the ways to deal with it are pretty limited. Meanwhile, it is in the color of super-tutors, GY power and some of the most virulent CIP abilities in the game.
I would suggest playtesting the card with your play group and seeing what the consensus of your group is. Get some results and let us know how many support unbanning it. On-paper analysis can't ever fully capture the situation.
Krosan Grip is the only enchantment kill that can reliably get rid of it.
Krosan Grip only answers it if your opponent makes a mistake, they can simply retain priority and activate once it resolves and there is no chance to Grip it.
I don't know that the presence of arguably degenerate cards suggests another degenerate card should be allowed in the format.
I'm not saying that Recurring Nightmare is overpowered, just that the ways to deal with it are pretty limited. Meanwhile, it is in the color of super-tutors, GY power and some of the most virulent CIP abilities in the game.
I would suggest playtesting the card with your play group and seeing what the consensus of your group is. Get some results and let us know how many support unbanning it. On-paper analysis can't ever fully capture the situation.
Actually if I had to choose between unbanning Recurring Nightmare or banning Gifts Ungiven & Survival of the Fittest I would choose the banning of Gifts and Survival. I think those cards are just better than Recurring Nightmare which is why I mentioned them. I've played a lot with Recurring Nightmare and the card is just stupidly broken so I'd leave it banned.
Actually if I had to choose between unbanning Recurring Nightmare or banning Gifts Ungiven & Survival of the Fittest I would choose the banning of Gifts and Survival.
Tangentally related: As legends continue to develop into the "change core rules" creatures, I believe it would behoove the format to consider banned lists for individual generals. For instance, Curiousity being banned in Niv decks.
I'm going to try it out. We'll unban it and go from there.
For example, my group finds magister sphinx is broken and have want to ban it. We errataed to 20 life, since it was developed with the idea of 20 starting life. That was months ago, and they still want to ban it. so there is a card my friends have wanted to ban.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current EDH Decks :symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
I'm going to try it out. We'll unban it and go from there.
For example, my group finds magister sphinx is broken and have want to ban it. We errataed to 20 life, since it was developed with the idea of 20 starting life. That was months ago, and they still want to ban it. so there is a card my friends have wanted to ban.
Yeah, that Sphinx is really a pain. We got someone that combines it with Wound Reflection which is pretty unfair since the sphinx ability actually causes you to lose life so if you are at 20+ you just die.
Recurring Nightmere is not a clear cut banned cards like certain on the list, but i certainly see their reasoning. its unfortunate, an online pet EDH deck, Child of Alara reanimation, is the deck where Recurring Nightmere would be AMAZING, its tailormade for the deck. (Coffin Queen and Hell's Caretaker are 2 off my crucial cards, especially the caretaker, and they are simply basd versions of Recurring Nightmere. I even run Goryo's Vengeance, again a bad recurring nightmere)). However, how WIDE the range of uses is is why i think it should be banned. It can lock an opponent out with Yosei, any leaves play and CIP creature is instantly abused by it. I think it is worth pointing out that CIP and leaves play effects are INCREDIBLY common in EDH. Sundering Titan, Duplicant, etc staples of EDH simply become absurd with it.
And comparing it to normal competitive magic simply doesn't work. Recurring Nightmere is a advantage engine, but one that is quite slow. Those engines tend to be veyr powerful in EDH... because... well... its a slow format lol. The slower the game, the better the Nightmere is. EDH games are SLOW.
Recurring Nightmere is not a clear cut banned cards like certain on the list, but i certainly see their reasoning. its unfortunate, an online pet EDH deck, Child of Alara reanimation, is the deck where Recurring Nightmere would be AMAZING, its tailormade for the deck. (Coffin Queen and Hell's Caretaker are 2 off my crucial cards, especially the caretaker, and they are simply basd versions of Recurring Nightmere. I even run Goryo's Vengeance, again a bad recurring nightmere)). However, how WIDE the range of uses is is why i think it should be banned. It can lock an opponent out with Yosei, any leaves play and CIP creature is instantly abused by it. I think it is worth pointing out that CIP and leaves play effects are INCREDIBLY common in EDH. Sundering Titan, Duplicant, etc staples of EDH simply become absurd with it.
And comparing it to normal competitive magic simply doesn't work. Recurring Nightmere is a advantage engine, but one that is quite slow. Those engines tend to be veyr powerful in EDH... because... well... its a slow format lol. The slower the game, the better the Nightmere is. EDH games are SLOW.
I think Gifts Ungiven is different then Recurring Nightmere, because they serve such different purposes. Recurring Nightmere, if given time, slowly turns the game in your favor through the advantage it gives. Gifts Ungiven is an incredibly efficient tutor spell (with some draw attached). Gifts Ungiven I think probably should be banned... I'm not sure though. Its such a strong card in EDH, and any blue deck can, and should, use it. It doesn't warp EDH in anyway though, nor do I think it hurts it much. Its just very efficient at setting up combos. However, the funny thing is that the majority of its use is just tutoring for answers, etc, which is hardly broken. I dunno. Gifts really toes the line of ban worthy
Current EDH Decks
:symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Current EDH Decks
:symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Example: Mindslaver + [card]Academy Ruins[/cards]. I play this, it is not fun for opponents, and it is not on their "watchlist". i'm sometimes surprised this combo isn't banned.
I look at the banned list and some card choices seem odd. (I realize no list could be perfect)
Current EDH Decks
:symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Recurring Nightmare is banned because of the drastic effect it can have on games. Imagine Cloudgoat Ranger or Siege-Gang Commander. Sac tokens to get good stuff? Also, it's a free repeatable "blink" effect for 2B. Imagine it with Angel of Despair, Cloudgoat Ranger, Archon of Justice, Siege-Gang Commander and so much more. 2B: Remove target permanent from the game? I don't think so. Momentary Blink and Mistmeadow Witch are already good, and they're short-term or easy to remove.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Angel of Despair/ archon of Justice is EXACTLY why i want to play it.(sarcasm)
Current EDH Decks
:symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Hmmm... I'd think that Angel of Despair + Archon of Justice combo is pretty scary.
GY hate is relatively sparse, and not something that you want to completely load a deck up with.
Krosan Grip is the only enchantment kill that can reliably get rid of it.
There isn't a lot of good discard for EDH. Most of it targets a single player or doesn't let you choose what cards are discarded. That's not to say a discard strategy can't be effective, but hand nuke cards aren't something that can drop into just any deck.
Similar situation for counterspells. There's a couple counters that you can drop into a deck that is heavy blue, but relatively speaking, countermagic isn't viable for a majority of decks.
I don't know that the presence of arguably degenerate cards suggests another degenerate card should be allowed in the format.
I'm not saying that Recurring Nightmare is overpowered, just that the ways to deal with it are pretty limited. Meanwhile, it is in the color of super-tutors, GY power and some of the most virulent CIP abilities in the game.
I would suggest playtesting the card with your play group and seeing what the consensus of your group is. Get some results and let us know how many support unbanning it. On-paper analysis can't ever fully capture the situation.
Krosan Grip only answers it if your opponent makes a mistake, they can simply retain priority and activate once it resolves and there is no chance to Grip it.
Actually if I had to choose between unbanning Recurring Nightmare or banning Gifts Ungiven & Survival of the Fittest I would choose the banning of Gifts and Survival. I think those cards are just better than Recurring Nightmare which is why I mentioned them. I've played a lot with Recurring Nightmare and the card is just stupidly broken so I'd leave it banned.
Tangentally related: As legends continue to develop into the "change core rules" creatures, I believe it would behoove the format to consider banned lists for individual generals. For instance, Curiousity being banned in Niv decks.
The voice of experience > my opinion.
For example, my group finds magister sphinx is broken and have want to ban it. We errataed to 20 life, since it was developed with the idea of 20 starting life. That was months ago, and they still want to ban it. so there is a card my friends have wanted to ban.
Current EDH Decks
:symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
Yeah, that Sphinx is really a pain. We got someone that combines it with Wound Reflection which is pretty unfair since the sphinx ability actually causes you to lose life so if you are at 20+ you just die.
Current EDH Decks
:symb::symg::symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain :symw::symg::symb:
:symg::symw::symu: Jenara, Asura of War :symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg: Kartthus, Tyrant of Jund :symg::symr::symb:
:symu::symb: Oona, Queen of the Fae :symb::symu:
:symr::symw: Brion Stoutarm :symw::symr:
And comparing it to normal competitive magic simply doesn't work. Recurring Nightmere is a advantage engine, but one that is quite slow. Those engines tend to be veyr powerful in EDH... because... well... its a slow format lol. The slower the game, the better the Nightmere is. EDH games are SLOW.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
I cube draft a lot and have been on both ends of the Sundering Titan + Recurring Nightmare combo. Pretty silly. Even with something mild like Solemn Simulacrum it's stupid.
I do agree that Gifts Ungiven is perhaps equally if not more broken than Recurring Nightmare, but that just means that both should be banned.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!