MTG Salvation

I'm a big fan of bleeding people in sneaky ways (i.e. not direct Drain Life, Syphon Life, or Corrupt type spells)... and one way I thought was the best way to achieve this is through Enchantments like Polluted Bonds, Underworld Dreams, and the like...

So after a few messy B/W, B/W/R, and B/W/U builds... I figured Enduring Ideal is the way to go for fun fishing tricks, esp with Solitary Confinement and things like Privileged Possition and Greater Auramancy...

Anyone else tried anything like this? Keep in mind this is LARGELY casual and fun... and I'm not looking for the quickest win possible...

Anyone tried this technique? Any advice? Any generals you've had success with this trick? I know Zur is popular, but I would think to be versital I'd need to go 5-color, even if just as a tiny splash.

It's tough because you're basically building your entire deck around one card that starts off, not in a convienent rfg zone, but in your library. Therefore I think you need all the tutors you can get your hands on, which means five color.

• Skull of Orm
  

would also be your friend because once you go epic you can't go back. Ideally you would have Privledged Position and the skull out before went epic.

Edit: I just realized how dumb the second paragraph is. I could just delete it but I'll be a sport and let the flaming begin.

Quote from pandafarmer

I'm a big fan of bleeding people in sneaky ways (i.e. not direct Drain Life, Syphon Life, or Corrupt type spells)... and one way I thought was the best way to achieve this is through Enchantments like Polluted Bonds, Underworld Dreams, and the like...

So after a few messy B/W, B/W/R, and B/W/U builds... I figured Enduring Ideal is the way to go for fun fishing tricks, esp with Solitary Confinement and things like Privileged Possition and Greater Auramancy...

Anyone else tried anything like this? Keep in mind this is LARGELY casual and fun... and I'm not looking for the quickest win possible...

Anyone tried this technique? Any advice? Any generals you've had success with this trick? I know Zur is popular, but I would think to be versital I'd need to go 5-color, even if just as a tiny splash.

I thought about doing it with Uril, the Miststalker, but even in duels those few turns to fish out the pieces you would have to have superior board position. Maybe Teferi out or Nullstone Gargoyle type cards or something, but the Epic spells would really seem to severely limit you in a multiplayer game.

Of course Opalescence and Enchanted Evening could armageddon everyone!

It could work in a deck as just something to do if you get it, but a whole deck might be a challenge.

Has anyone used Epics? I don't recall seeing them in deck lists.

LoL, epic EDH......that's pretty good.....

hey, wouldn't it be cool if you had a Vedalken Orrery in play, so that you could play another epic spell in response to Eduring Ideal? That way you would have TWO epic spells going off every turn! --besides, Orrery is just good anyway-- If you ran black you could play Neverending Torment to mess up everyone else while you've 'gone epic' (not to mention Necropotence to fill up your hand before the torment goes off!....maybe a Reliquary Tower to go with that) Black will of course also give you access to the best tutoring for your Epic Combos.

maybe add Mirari to copy the epic spells every turn...(does that work?)

I'm thinking you should focus on lots of permenants with activated abilities that you can use after you combo. Stuff to protect your permenants would be good, such as Ertai, Wizard Adept (for that matter, Ertai the Corrupted would be a good general), Voidmage Prodigy, Voidmage Prodigy, Vesuvan Shapeshifter, Glen Elendra Archmage (Epic Wizard theme?)

Quote from omnivore

• Skull of Orm
  

would also be your friend because once you go epic you can't go back. Ideally you would have Privledged Position and the skull out before went epic.

Edit: I just realized how dumb the second paragraph is. I could just delete it but I'll be a sport and let the flaming begin.

It isn't as dumb as you think. It works well with Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Thanks guys, at least I know I'm not too terribly crazy. Skull Of Orm is great! I'll have to find one! Also, Vedalken Orrery is definitely something I've been considering, as a instant speed O-Ring or Faith's Fetters is pretty shocking. Also, OKNotOK... once again you go and prove how similar our tastes are in deckbuilding... I think the 2 Epic spells would indeed be impressive. I thought about putting Neverending Torment in other decks, I think running both of these could be just amazing.

What about good generals? Yes, we'd have to go 5-color as there is no 4-color gens...

I'd go with Horde of Notions with some good utility elementals in the deck. You wouldn't need to dedicate a lot of space to it - I'd run Ingot Chewer, Wispmare, Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter, and probably Spitebellows as a good utility package that combos well with Horde's reanimation and you can use it after you've gone epic.

Since you don't need to win ASAP in multiplayer I'd opt for more card draw/selection than straight tutoring. I'd definitely run the best tutors (Demonic, Visions tutors) but don't skimp on card draw and stuff like Sylvan Library, Sensei's Divining Top, and Scroll Rack along with some good shuffle effects.

OK Skull of Orm not as stupid as I first thought. Learning to let others second guess me. So how about Soldevi Digger?

Edit: I like the elemental subtheme.

I'm trying this 5-color Esper heavy build to see... splashing for R, and G is basically there to allow for Wheel of Sun and Moon and PP. I liked the idea of Elements as well... but I wanted to see what I could do with this direction first as I don't want to become too dependent on having to reanimate dudes once the lock hits.


I know I need to tighten up the manabase with things like City Of Brass, Reflecting Pool and Rupture Spire... but the main focus has been a few different win conditions based on some fun ideas... Obviously large hand size benifits is one, punishing others for drawing cards and playing lands, and a great mix of enchantments to deal with various threats. Also, I've built in some options that keep me from screwing myself by accident, and ways to protect my investments.

What do you guys think?

Copy Enchantment good. Honden's good (I would think about running all five.)

Black Vise + Howling Mine; not a big fan. Matter of style though I guess.

Needs more Enchanted Evening. The combo with Opalescence is just ridiculously good, as it will lock people out from doing just about anything. Just drop a Ghostly Prison or a Propaganda after it and you are pretty much safe.

I would drop:

• Howling Mine - The draw-effects will just help your opponents while hurting you.
  
• Font of Mythos - The draw-effects will just help your opponents while hurting you.
  
• Seizan, Perverter of Truth - The draw-effects will just help your opponents while hurting you.
  
• Black Vise - Good, but doesn't contribute much.
  
• Keredect Parasite - Eww, just not good enough.
  
• Plaque Sliver - What was this doing in there anyway..?
  
• Celestial Dawn - Useless by the time you would search for it.
  
• Underworld Dreams - Just too slow.

Cards to add:

• Academy Rector - Find ANY enchantment and put it into play, yes please.
  
• Enchanted Evening - Screws lands and tokens with opalescence, pretty good, imo. Also means that if they want to use mass-enchantment removal, they will lose ALL of their permanents, too.
  
• Ghostly Prison - Or Propaganda. Makes you a bad target.
  
• Sol Ring - Superior acceleration.
  
• Darksteel Ingot - Lot better than any of the obelisks.
  
• Mystic Tutor - You want to find your epics. Other ways to find them would be suggested, too.
  
• Damnation - Sweepers just are good..
  
• Decree of Justice - Even if you can't play cards, you CAN cycle.
  
• Decree of Pain - See where I am going to..?
  
• Decree of Silence - These are good, trust me. You can also search this one for lulz. Decree of Annihilation - Destroying all lands when your epic is around seems like a plan, not joking.
  
• Renewed Faith - Cycleable, seems good enough.
  
• Resounding Silence - Yeah, just awesome.
  
• Resounding Thunder - ^
  
• Resounding Wave - You heard me!
  
• Slice and Dice - Might kill tokens, and a decent sweeper pre-epics.
  
• Grixis Slavedriver - You can unearth, too.
  
• Kathari Bomber - So go ahead, make some chump-blockers ^-^
  
• Anathemancer - And KILL someone. This card is so frigging brutal in EDH that it's almost not funny.

Yes, there are 20000 more cards to add. I know. You figure it out.

why has nobody mentioned Replenish? Seems built for this deck lol
also, propoganda, ghostly prison, elephant grass, karmic justice,blood moon, moat, sterling grove, island sanctuary, spreading plague seems good, the black and red myojin is great too, as you can use the black's effect to ensure your epic spell resolves, and the red myojin's effect (it destroys all lands, yes?), after it resolves to stall their answers.

Thanks for all the replies! It's nice to see people taking the idea seriously. A couple of the suggestions I have not really considered due to my not owning the cards and not wanting to sink too much extra cash yet, but I still think they are great considerations when i find them. Rector I intend to find of course, and Sterling Grove, Enchanted Evening, and Replenish are perfect... and I recently cut Anathemancer but will bring him back in cause he does become a bit of a beast late game.

I am nervous about Ghostly Prison or Propaganda as they are pretty worthless late game, and even in EDH all together as people spend the first 5-6 turns ramping anyway. I might give it a shot if I start seeing more weenie style decks. Good points about the cycling and unearth abilities. Heck, going with an Astral Slide subtheme might do the trick to protect things. I played Slide back in the day and have always wanted to bring it back into my life.

As for removing the draw/bleed theme... I guess it's a matter of taste, but it's one of the main reasons I started building the deck. I love to peck away at life totals and punish people for doing things they would do anyway like drawing cards or playing lands. I'll keep it in for now as the deck is largely a curiosity for me, but I'll keep it in the back of my head. Plague Sliver I have in as we do see Sliver themed EDHs every now and again. It seems newer EDH players are drawn to the idea.

Thanks again for the ideas guys! It's a big help!

Quote from Yarg

I'd go with Horde of Notions with some good utility elementals in the deck. You wouldn't need to dedicate a lot of space to it - I'd run Ingot Chewer, Wispmare, Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter, and probably Spitebellows as a good utility package that combos well with Horde's reanimation and you can use it after you've gone epic.

This doesn't work; with Horde you're still playing the spells.

Quote from Amadi

Needs more Enchanted Evening. The combo with Opalescence is just ridiculously good, as it will lock people out from doing just about anything. Just drop a Ghostly Prison or a Propaganda after it and you are pretty much safe.

I would drop:
Howling Mine - The draw-effects will just help your opponents while hurting you.

• Font of Mythos" target="blank">Font of Mythos - The draw-effects will just help your opponents while hurting you.
  
• Seizan, Perverter of Truth" target="blank">Seizan, Perverter of Truth - The draw-effects will just help your opponents while hurting you.
  
• Black Vise" target="blank">Black Vise - Good, but doesn't contribute much.
  
• Keredect Parasite" target="blank">Keredect Parasite - Eww, just not good enough.
  
• Plaque Sliver" target="blank">Plaque Sliver - What was this doing in there anyway..?
  
• Celestial Dawn" target="blank">Celestial Dawn - Useless by the time you would search for it.
  
• Underworld Dreams" target="blank">Underworld Dreams - Just too slow.

Cards to add:
Academy Rector - Find ANY enchantment and put it into play, yes please.

• Enchanted Evening" target="blank">Enchanted Evening - Screws lands and tokens with opalescence, pretty good, imo. Also means that if they want to use mass-enchantment removal, they will lose ALL of their permanents, too.
  
• Ghostly Prison" target="blank">Ghostly Prison - Or Propaganda. Makes you a bad target.
  
• Sol Ring" target="blank">Sol Ring - Superior acceleration.
  
• Darksteel Ingot" target="blank">Darksteel Ingot - Lot better than any of the obelisks.
  
• Mystic Tutor" target="blank">Mystic Tutor - You want to find your epics. Other ways to find them would be suggested, too.
  
• Damnation" target="blank">Damnation - Sweepers just are good..
  
• Decree of Justice" target="blank">Decree of Justice - Even if you can't play cards, you CAN cycle.
  
• Decree of Pain" target="blank">Decree of Pain - See where I am going to..?
  
• Decree of Silence" target="blank">Decree of Silence - These are good, trust me. You can also search this one for lulz. Decree of Annihilation - Destroying all lands when your epic is around seems like a plan, not joking.
  
• Renewed Faith" target="blank">Renewed Faith - Cycleable, seems good enough.
  
• Resounding Silence" target="blank">Resounding Silence - Yeah, just awesome.
  
• Resounding Thunder" target="blank">Resounding Thunder - ^
  
• Resounding Wave" target="blank">Resounding Wave - You heard me!
  
• Slice and Dice" target="blank">Slice and Dice - Might kill tokens, and a decent sweeper pre-epics.
  
• Grixis Slavedriver" target="blank">Grixis Slavedriver - You can unearth, too.
  
• Kathari Bomber" target="blank">Kathari Bomber - So go ahead, make some chump-blockers ^-^
  
• Anathemancer" target="blank">Anathemancer - And KILL someone. This card is so frigging brutal in EDH that it's almost not funny.

Yes, there are 20000 more cards to add. I know. You figure it out.

Actually, Megrim/Underworld Dreams/Kedrekt Parasite works pretty well with Howling Mine/Font of Mythos/Seizan Perverter of Truth. I played against an annoying standard deck that won exactly that way. It actually works very well with mass bounce as well. It wouldn't need the Boomerangs and Unsummons, though, because EDH is a much slower format.

Megrim would be neat... though I do think there isn't a EDH out there that isn't running Reliquary Tower these days. But, that's where Black Vise comes in. But as suggested, if I can get this to work right, it may be that suite that goes first. I've always loved Seizan *sigh.* Of course, there is another EDH... mono black draw bleed discard style.

You think Sacred Mesa would be good? Since you'll have mana just sitting there you could at least use it to make chump blockers or build up a swarm. Since it requires sacrificing, adding Grave Pact might be nice.

Doubling Season would be fun if you do want generate tokens. I can think of Breeding pit and Verdant Embrace, any other Enchanment generators?

EDIT: Did a quick search. Followed Footsteps, Dragon Roost, Necrogenesis, Rise of the Hobgoblins, Pegasus Refuge, Ooze Garden, Words of Wilding, Bearscape jumped out at me.

Quote from Gojira X

EDIT: Did a quick search. Followed Footsteps, Dragon Roost, Necrogenesis, Rise of the Hobgoblins, Pegasus Refuge, Ooze Garden, Words of Wilding, Bearscape jumped out at me.

Centaur Glade and Mobilization are missing, and those are probably the best ones.

Quote from flaming infinity »

Actually, Megrim/Underworld Dreams/Kedrekt Parasite works pretty well with Howling Mine/Font of Mythos/Seizan Perverter of Truth. I played against an annoying standard deck that won exactly that way. It actually works very well with mass bounce as well. It wouldn't need the Boomerangs and Unsummons, though, because EDH is a much slower format.

Standard decks couldn't even have seizan, though. Also, standard decks are a whole lot more reliable - They run four copies of key spells AND play smaller decks. Playing cards that are subpar without another part isn't a good idea in EDH, if you are doing that you might be playing a combo that wins the game right away instead.

Theres A white elemental creature in Ravnica that puts +1/+1 counters on creatures you control whenever you play an enchantment you should look into that creature.

Words of Wilding is an excellent idea once you're epic. If you're going the tokens route how about Mirari's Wake?