MTG Salvation

Ok, so my view is that this set is a little under powered so far. Lots of love for tribal knights (yay)
I haven't had time to digest all of it yet, mainly considering what might fit into my current decks so far.

Oakhame Adversary looks very sweet for multiplayer.
Realm-Cloaked Giant looks the goods for some sort of giant-based control deck.
Knights' Charge will be delicious in my wifes' Knight deck running Knight Exemplar.
Once upon a Time into another 2-cmc spell (think Growth Spiral etc.) looks like a pretty good Turn 2 play, and it's instant speed!
Rankle, Master of Pranks - flexibility is usually good.
The Great Henge looks very good.
Deathless Knight another not-terrible cockroach that gets around Grafdigger's Cage
Gilded Goose is ok

Gluttonous Troll etc.
Food tokens are artifacts, so anything that cares artifacts to sacrifice, metalcraft, affinity etc. might find food tokens useful, but I'm thinking we probably already have better options.

Quote from bleedin_eyeball »

Ok, so my view is that this set is a little under powered so far. Lots of love for tribal knights (yay)
I haven't had time to digest all of it yet, mainly considering what might fit into my current decks so far.

Oakhame Adversary looks very sweet for multiplayer.
Realm-Cloaked Giant looks the goods for some sort of giant-based control deck.
Knights' Charge will be delicious in my wifes' Knight deck running Knight Exemplar.
Once upon a Time into another 2-cmc spell (think Growth Spiral etc.) looks like a pretty good Turn 2 play, and it's instant speed!
Rankle, Master of Pranks - flexibility is usually good.
The Great Henge looks very good.
Deathless Knight another not-terrible cockroach that gets around Grafdigger's Cage
Gilded Goose is ok

Gluttonous Troll etc.
Food tokens are artifacts, so anything that cares artifacts to sacrifice, metalcraft, affinity etc. might find food tokens useful, but I'm thinking we probably already have better options.

Since Prid3 has stopped doing set reviews, (much to my dismay as this is the only place I know of that does 60 card mp decks, most reviews for MP are for EDH) I guess we shall have to work together to make heads or tales of sets going forward.

Piggybacking off Bleeding Eyeball, who for the most part I agree with (depending on your meta).
Not completely sold on:
Oakhame Adversary I prefer [card]Ohran Frostfang for one extra mana but probably play both, thanks for pointing it out
Deathless Knight meh, recursion is fine, but for 4 mana I think I want my card to do a bit more?

A few cards I like not mentioned yet
foulmire knight over-costed card draw with a rattlesnake attached and can be reused well tribal or B/x decks
murderous rider Great utility in a color that can reuse the card over and over again
dance of the manse enchantment decks
Piper of the swarm Rat Tribal among other uses
Smitten Swordmaster Mini exsanguinate stapled to a body for the draining knight tribal.
Syr Konrad, the Grim Curve topper for tribal knight drain. Powerful with a full board
Questing Beast Pushed, a ton of text, dies to no benefit, but seems like good fun

Ok, there are more good cards, but I will let someone else offer up some

I'll +1 the nod to Oakhame Adversary since I think that it's one of the best MP cards in the set. Green is one of the 3 good multiplayer colors and often starts the game with cards like Burgeoning, Deathrite Shaman, Exploration, Carpet of Flowers, Birds of Paradise, Wild Growth on and on and on. Part of what makes Green such a powerful color is its access to immensely powerful 1 drops that enable it to power ahead of the curve so you'll see these types of spells early and often in multiplayer. With that in mind Oakhame Adversary is frequently going to be a painless Dark Confidant that scales much better into the lategame. Bigger butt, deathtouch for trading, no risk of killing yourself, etc. are all fantastic upsides to have on a card that easily come down on turn 2 and start drawing you an extra card every turn. Similar to Mindblade Render this seems like a no-brainer staple for every multiplayer format (Cube, EDH, 2HG, Constructed) assuming that, again, you use your head and only play it in metas where people play Green 1 drops. I'll stress that cards like Carpet of Flowers, Oakhame Adversary, Compost and Runic Armasaur aren't always good but they're bonkers in the right metas so I love having access to these types of cards. When they are good they're the best cards in your decks.

With respect to Realm-Cloaked Giant I'd advise ignoring the "non-Giant" line of text. This isn't a "Giant's matter" card or anything. This is an End Hostilities that provides a giant (no pun intended) body to block/beat people down for your Control decks. You're essentially trading the speed and security of Sublime Exhalation for the added upside of getting another finisher in your builds. This is a marginal tradeoff and I don't consider this to be a staple but it's a solid addition to any Control list. Still, for anyone who wants a thumbs up/thumbs down it gets a thumbs down from me because I'd rather have cheaper mass removal (Wrath of God, Day of Judgment, Sublime Exhalation) to curve off of my turn 2 mana rock and then rely on something like Approach of the Second Sun to close the game out. That's always going to be a more consistent way to A) survive and B) consistently defeat 3+ adversaries.

The set itself is interesting. Going by my grades it's mostly C+s, not many Bs or As, but there's a ton of C/C+ cards that will be fun to play with/against and very few cards like Narset, Parter of Veils and Smothering Tithe that trivialize what your adversaries are playing. So for the super spikey players it's a "meh" set overall but it's utterly fantastic for kitchen table fans.

As a casual player I see a lot of fine cards.
Most of them get enough attention.
One that seems great is hardly mentioned; Faerie Formation.

On further inspection, Murderous Rider is amaze-balls.
A lot of Knights in this set I like - Tribal knights gettin a big shake-up.

Dance of the Manse sounds idiotic, but the card has legs. This could be very very good in the right build.

Quote from Prid3 »

With respect to Realm-Cloaked Giant I'd advise ignoring the "non-Giant" line of text.

The set itself is interesting. Going by my grades it's mostly C+s, not many Bs or As, but there's a ton of C/C+ cards that will be fun to play with/against and very few cards like Narset, Parter of Veils and Smothering Tithe that trivialize what your adversaries are playing.

Agreed.

Adventure cards, given you are mostly going to get both sides out of the card, look like a lot of fun.

Quote from Prid3 »

The set itself is interesting. Going by my grades it's mostly C+s, not many Bs or As, but there's a ton of C/C+ cards that will be fun to play with/against and very few cards like Narset, Parter of Veils and Smothering Tithe that trivialize what your adversaries are playing. So for the super spikey players it's a "meh" set overall but it's utterly fantastic for kitchen table fans.

Agreed. It's a great set for kitchen table magic.

Any chance we're going to see any more set reviews from you? You know you love writing them and there are some of us who gobble up in the information. Or is it an end of an era?

Another card I tried out in a control shell that performed better than I initially thought the magic mirror If it sticks around it can draw a lot of cards. Obviously there are far better options out there if you want to get competitive, but casually, it's relatively strong.

Quote from TechnicolorMage »

Any chance we're going to see any more set reviews from you? You know you love writing them and there are some of us who gobble up in the information. Or is it an end of an era?

I stopped loving it which is why I haven't written them for the past couple of sets. I used to do it "for me" so to speak but now it feels like a chore. This is exacerbated by the limited activity on this forum because it wouldn't feel nearly as bad if I knew that my reviews were reaching significant portions of the MP community. I'm not trying to change lives or anything, my motives are all selfish in nature, but when the forum gets 5 posts per week it's difficult for me to justify putting in the hours to write a review. I don't have that much fun writing them and it feels like a waste of time since so few people actually read it.

I've been considering doing it for EDH instead because that's what most people (myself included) seem to play for multiplayer. I never liked doing EDH reviews because the market felt flooded and I didn't know anyone other than me doing it for non-EDH MP but the level of activity of this forums proves that there isn't much demand for this type of content. I'm also a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to certain things and many people are producing fantastic video content that are well produced and edited.

Prid3: A shame that they are no longer fun for you anymore. When it becomes work, it definitely becomes less fun. Thanks for the wealth of info. I know EDH is the defacto MP route that most go, but there are a lot more of us who really enjoy 60 card MP

Would a subreddit dedicated to 60 card MP be an option? You could host all your reviews there? Perhaps even continue them. Reddit gets a ton of traffic.

I know people like real-time Discord, but the problem with Discord is it doesn't really host info well. It's here today, gone in a few hours.

Forums like this are pretty much a dying breed

Reddit doesn't

Quote from Cnatsepllrgiht »

Would a subreddit dedicated to 60 card MP be an option? You could host all your reviews there? Perhaps even continue them. Reddit gets a ton of traffic.

Reddit is good for many things but long form discussions isn't one of them. My reviews vastly exceed their character limits and formatting capabilities.

The #1 thing I look for with each set release are new deck archetypes to try out. That could be something based on a block mechanic (e.g. Food deck) or decks that become (more) viable through the addition of additional support (e.g. Rat tribal through Piper of the Swarm) or additional copies 8-12 of an semi-unique effect (e.g. Neoform).

Are there any new deck archetypes that you folks are considering based on the new cards coming in ELD?

Quote from MaelstromPonderer »

Are there any new deck archetypes that you folks are considering based on the new cards coming in ELD?

Fires of Invention Control is busted. The card triples your mana while still enabling you to jam things like Wrath of God/Damnation/Chain Reaction on turn 4 which is obscene. Most 4 mana ramp spells on tap for 3-4 mana tops and eat your entire turn so Fires is absolutely disgusting by comparison. It's essentially the Red Smothering Tithe that requires a more dedicated shell. I know that most people saw this card and thought of Living End et al. and that deck is "fine" but it isn't nearly as exciting as playing it as a generic mana engine. Just imagine games where you jam this on turn 4 alongside mass removal then next turn you start casting things like Manifold Insights + Cavalier of Flame + activate your Cavalier and swing in for 8. From there you cast more draw spells, sweepers, expensive bombs, etc. while pumping all of your mana into activated abilities. This is also the best Red "Planeswalker" deck in my opinion because you can do things like cast Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Chain Reaction/Inferno Titan/Jokulhaups on the same turn which is incredibly powerful. Also jamming Cavalier of Flame + Inferno Titan on turn 6 and then activating your Cavalier to give them both Haste and then attacking for millions is... you get the idea. People die real fast when you're swinging for lethal from an empty (creature-wise) board.

Doom Foretold + Danse of the Manse Control is a cheap, fun twist on Enchantment-based strategies. It gets to abuse things like Mystic Remora, Oath of Liliana and Smothering Tithe (not required) while also featuring the classics like Arcum's Astrolabe, Chromatic Star, Mycosynth Wellspring, Ichor Wellspring, Trading Post, etc.

Cauldron Familiar + Witch's Oven is a fun little combo that can be slammed into any B/x "sacrifice matters" shell. It can do nasty things with Viscera Seer and Gluttonous Troll. Chittering Witch is also stellar if you have anything like Zulaport Cutthroat sitting around.

"Food Reanimator" gets to abuse things like Gluttonous Troll to fuel Feasting Troll King. This is a great Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis as well so I like playing both of those as my big finishers at which point The Great Henge becomes a fairly busted card advantage + lifegain engine.

Edgewall Innkeeper + Lucky Clover are incredibly powerful cards in "Adventure" decks but sadly there aren't any good multiplayer Adventures so the deck can't reliably win games. So it meets the "new theme" requirement but believe me when I say that it feels weak to play.

Cards I liked and that are relatively affordable:

• Faeburrow Elder
  
• Piper of the Swarm
  
• Faerie Formation
  
• Giant Killer
  
• Deathless Knight
  
• Resolute Rider
  
• Savvy Hunter
  
• Ardenvale Tactician
  
• Merchant of the Vale
  
• Harmonious Archon

The hybrid mana critters are mostly because of devotion.
The adventures mostly to see if I like them. Of which the killer seems most worthy...

I love harmonious archon, it can do some really sick stuff. It makes new tokens when it ETB, so flickering it is good. Playing it, attacking with your tokens, then phasing it or returning it to hand makes it asymmetrical, and even just by itself it makes 10 power for 6 mana.

Quote from Prid3 »

Fires of Invention Control is busted.

Yep. I came back to post about that one. It's probably best in a planeswalker-heavy deck I feel.
Think I'll pick up a set of these

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm always a fan of new control archetypes. I'm keen to try the adventure deck as well. I like grindy, value-oriented decks and they don't need to be too strong to work in my group.

Quote from MaelstromPonderer »

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm always a fan of new control archetypes. I'm keen to try the adventure deck as well. I like grindy, value-oriented decks and they don't need to be too strong to work in my group.

Play Golgari Adventure Knights. I've been toying around with different builds and Golgari Knights has surprisingly been holding its own.

Oakhame Adversary feels like a trap. Someone else pointed out that it basically is this but with some (fairly unreliable) multiplayer trinket text added on. I think that's about right most of the time and Viper isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

I do see quite a few C/U staples I'm picking up for different decks. (in no particular order)



Crashing Drawbridge is just a godsend for weenie decks. I will be trying it out in quite a few decks I think. I think this card might prove to be a mistake, honestly.

Also stocking up on 4x Edgewall Innkeeper & Lucky Clover for when we go back to Zendikar. I can't imagine a more likely return of Adventures than that.

Also picked up 4x Cavalcade of Calamity (to go with 4x Torbran, Thane of Red Fell.) Seems like there's a deck there somewhere.

Quote from Morphling »

Oakhame Adversary feels like a trap. Someone else pointed out that it basically is this but with some (fairly unreliable) multiplayer trinket text added on. I think that's about right most of the time and Viper isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

I don't recommend comparing a 2 drop to a 3 drop and saying "this 2 drop is weak because the 3 CMC version doesn't see play." 1 mana is a gargantuan difference and can definitely make-or-break a card. Dark Confidant is a competitive staple for example because it's a 2 drop threat that draws a card every turn. Similar effects are relatively unplayable by comparison (think Phyrexian Arena) but that doesn't change the fact that the Bob is a powerhouse in virtually every format. In scenarios where someone opens with a 1 drop and you jam an Adversary on turn 2 it's a painless Confidant that threatens to trade with anything. That's an absurd Magic card.

It is a 4-drop roughly 80% of the time. 4 out of 5 times you cast this. I'm considering it a 4-drop "most" games.

I hear what you are saying. That said, to be honest Bob & Viper appear have very, very little in common, pedigree-wise or ceiling-wise. Yes, you are making a great argument on card evaluation but it feels a little forced here.

I've actually played with Ohran. Back when they printed him. And, yes, I just recently rebuilt a Snow Stompy deck now that Snow is back. I do have quite a bit of real-world experience playing with this card. Not a bad card but he's nothing stellar. Try him (or this new guy) out if you want but don't expect him to be some powerhouse.

Quote from Morphling »

It is a 4-drop roughly 80% of the time. 4 out of 5 times you cast this. I'm considering it a 4-drop "most" games.

This is likely where we differ. BUG are the 3 good multiplayer colors and have the highest representation at our tables. Moreover, competitive Green decks (I'm mostly talking about EDH here) tend to field all of the broken 1 drops and since there's 3 other players that means that a huge % of games start with turn 1 dork turn 2 Tymna the Weaver or whatever your Commander is.

Also, to be clear, I've stressed numerous times that it's a meta-dependent card. Much like Compost you don't want to blindly jam it if your meta can't reasonably support it. Still, as with Compost the card is absurd when you can reliably extract value from it which is why that I rate it so highly. It's not going to be good in every deck and meta but when it's good it's going to be one of the better cards in your deck.

Quote from Prid3 »

Quote from Morphling »

It is a 4-drop roughly 80% of the time. 4 out of 5 times you cast this. I'm considering it a 4-drop "most" games.

This is likely where we differ. BUG are the 3 good multiplayer colors and have the highest representation at our tables.

Pretty much this.
I suggested this card due to me usually playing larger (think 4-6 players) FFA's. If it's different for you Morphling, fair enough. I wuold say the ratio% of 2 to 4-drop would favour 2-drop in my group.


To add one more to the list of interest;
I've been quite happy drafting Midnight Clock. It's card draw pay-off is slow of course, but I like it for the ramp too. And I'm sure there's plenty of ways Simic can abuse this thing outside of Standard, so I'll be picking up a set of these for sure.

Quote from bleedin_eyeball »

I've been quite happy drafting Midnight Clock. It's card draw pay-off is slow of course, but I like it for the ramp too. And I'm sure there's plenty of ways Simic can abuse this thing outside of Standard, so I'll be picking up a set of these for sure.

The card is nutty. 3 CMC ramp isn't ideal but it's not heinous, especially when it taps for colored mana. This means that you can cast your ramp spell and still hold up your Pongify, Swan Song, Flusterstorm, etc. to interact with the table. Beyond that it just sits there for 3 turns (tapping for mana) at which point it refills your hand. You also get to untap with all of your mana on your big refill turn which is ideal. Windfalls can be rough if you're lacking in fast mana since they cost 3-4 mana to use which means that you're sometimes forced to pass the turn and allow your opponents to have the first crack at their new cards. Clock gives you all of the cards and mana so there's no tension. I don't think that it's a broken card or anything, it's no Mystic Remora, but it's an extremely powerful card that anyone could blindly jam as a 4-of in their Blue decks.

Quote from Prid3 »

Quote from TechnicolorMage »

Any chance we're going to see any more set reviews from you? You know you love writing them and there are some of us who gobble up in the information. Or is it an end of an era?

I stopped loving it which is why I haven't written them for the past couple of sets. I used to do it "for me" so to speak but now it feels like a chore. This is exacerbated by the limited activity on this forum because it wouldn't feel nearly as bad if I knew that my reviews were reaching significant portions of the MP community. I'm not trying to change lives or anything, my motives are all selfish in nature, but when the forum gets 5 posts per week it's difficult for me to justify putting in the hours to write a review. I don't have that much fun writing them and it feels like a waste of time since so few people actually read it.

I've been considering doing it for EDH instead because that's what most people (myself included) seem to play for multiplayer. I never liked doing EDH reviews because the market felt flooded and I didn't know anyone other than me doing it for non-EDH MP but the level of activity of this forums proves that there isn't much demand for this type of content. I'm also a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to certain things and many people are producing fantastic video content that are well produced and edited.

I have been following your reviews since 2015 when I got back to playing Magic, I've always been a fan of your reviews and it's one the reasons why I still access this forum to this day. Since then I've transitioned from playing 60 cards to EDH. So, if anything...one day you decide to start reviewing for EDH, I for one would be really glad to follow then. Heck even if it's for 60 card format, I would still read them, since they've been helping for so long in commander.

So I had a chance to play with Oakhame adversary and I put it in an all deathtouch deck just because thematically it fit. Green is represented in about 33% of my opponents' decks in a meaningful way. In 10 games, I drew the card 22 times and was able to cast it for 2 mana 14 times and for the full cost the other 8 times. That is a 64% rate (but I was looking to jam the card every possible time, even if it wasn't the best play to make) so the results are a little skewed. As has been alluded to by others, if your meta is full of green, then the card is undercosted and a good addition to budget decks. If you meta can't guarantee the lower mana cost, then I think it's just another rattlesnake that may or may not draw you a card and I feel like you have a ton of options out there.

I mean, less than a buck for a playset, sure....why not

Quote from Prid3 »

Quote from TechnicolorMage »

Any chance we're going to see any more set reviews from you? You know you love writing them and there are some of us who gobble up in the information. Or is it an end of an era?

I stopped loving it which is why I haven't written them for the past couple of sets. I used to do it "for me" so to speak but now it feels like a chore. This is exacerbated by the limited activity on this forum because it wouldn't feel nearly as bad if I knew that my reviews were reaching significant portions of the MP community. I'm not trying to change lives or anything, my motives are all selfish in nature, but when the forum gets 5 posts per week it's difficult for me to justify putting in the hours to write a review. I don't have that much fun writing them and it feels like a waste of time since so few people actually read it.

I've been considering doing it for EDH instead because that's what most people (myself included) seem to play for multiplayer. I never liked doing EDH reviews because the market felt flooded and I didn't know anyone other than me doing it for non-EDH MP but the level of activity of this forums proves that there isn't much demand for this type of content. I'm also a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to certain things and many people are producing fantastic video content that are well produced and edited.

For what it's worth, I always greatly appreciated and actively looked forward to your set-reviews as they are pretty much unique in their content. No one else does Multiplayer-focused set-grading with such indepth knowledge and accuracy. But if you don't like doing them anymore, I get that..just know that they were very much appreciated, even if by too few, maybe..Thanks, anyway, for the past ones!