My attempt with a Rakdos version of Experimental Frenzy. Just a warning, if your playgroup frowns upon people taking 10 minute turns, then they might not like this deck.
Have a card you can't cast on top of your library cloggin up your Experimental Frenzy? Just sac a creature to Viscera Seer, scry it to the bottom and probably do some damage in the process. Or maybe you wanna keep that top card in case your Experimental Frenzy gets destroyed. Then throw one of your creatures under the Skullclamp to save it for later.
Another idea I had with this deck was to make it heavily goblin focused and then stack the deck with Goblin Recruiter. It looked like something like this.
A single mizer Boggart Forager cause there's always that guy who knows what deck you;re playing and will let you put all the goblins on top of your deck only to then counter your Experimental Frenzy to watch you sit there playing single 1/1s every turn.
Skullclamp + Experimental Frenzy is a bit of an odd pairing as they have rather negative synergy with one another. It means that your deck is constantly digging into 12 dead cards once you factor Faithless Looting into the equation.
What does Boggart Forager beat that your 2nd, 3rd and 4th copies of Goblin Recruiter doesn't? Seems like a wasted deckslot to me, with the caveat that I've never tried your version of the deck.
Skullclamp + Experimental Frenzy is a bit of an odd pairing as they have rather negative synergy with one another. It means that your deck is constantly digging into 12 dead cards once you factor Faithless Looting into the equation.
At their cores, both decks are basically combo decks. The main use of Skullclamp is to quickly draw into your combo pieces as I'm not running white for Enlightened Tutor type effects. (Same goes for Faithless Looting.) In the Goblin version, once you have the combo pieces you don't really need to use the Skullclamp anymore as the deck is built to go off in a single turn.
In the rakdos version Skullclamp has two other functions besides just drawing into the combo pieces. 1) It can be used as a backup sac outlet in case you don't have your Viscera Seers. 2) Since the rakdos version probably won't go off all in a single turn, it's good to draw into backups of your combo pieces instead of just scrying them to the bottom in case you run into removal when you pass your turn.
What does Boggart Forager beat that your 2nd, 3rd and 4th copies of Goblin Recruiter doesn't? Seems like a wasted deckslot to me, with the caveat that I've never tried your version of the deck.
So the goblin version is intended to be a 1-turn combo. With a Runaway Steam-Kin in play, cast Goblin Recruiter to stack your deck, cast Experimental Frenzy and then put all your other goblins into play ending of course with the two Goblin Bushwhackers. Boggart Forager is an odd choice and maybe it's a bit of a meta call but I know there are people in my playgroup that would love nothing more than to let me cast the recruiter, put 30 goblins on top of my deck and then counter my frenzy to watch me sit there and draw 1 cmc creatures the rest of the game.
You're right in that Goblin Recruiter has a similar function to Boggart Forager. The main difference being the cmc and that one extra mana is a huge difference. When first starting out playing your goblins off the top with frenzy, your'e very limited on mana and can only afford the 1 cmc creatures because you need three red spells to get 3 mana off the Runaway Steam-Kin. All the goblins are 1 cmc besides the recruiter. Yes even the Mogg War Marshal is a pseudo-1cmc card because you can sac him to the Skirk Prospector without losing a body and bodies are important at the end when you're mass attacking.
You might be thinking, well why don't we just use the recruiter with the Skirk Prospector? Can't you just put him on top and put Goblin Recruiter second? Yes, you can, but if your frenzy gets countered, that's two turns you'll then have to wait to reshuffle instead of just the one if you had Boggart Forager instead. But lets say nothing was countered and you play the Skirk Prospector, sac it then play the Goblin Recruiter and go off from there. You'll then have lost an attacker (the sacced prospector) AND you've put the Foundry Street Denizens further back in the order which will at the end make them smaller.
I've found Theater of Horrors to be up there as well... might be worth considering as an alternate / extra copy of Experimental Frenzy, given you're in colour.
I gave the first deck a shot with some minor tweaks. Added a land ( I like hitting 3 land drops in Clamp decks), cut the Faithless Lootings (the deck doesn't use them for anything) and removed some of the 1 drops for things like Phyrexian Altar, Pawn of Ulamog and Pitiless Plunderer. I also tested Risk Factor, Light Up the Stage and Theater of Horrors because why not? Experimental Frenzy was great when I had nothing else going on but I never wanted to use it if I had a Skullclamp going because that was always a better use of my resources. I tried 0-2-4 (testing 1 and 3 doesn't help much in my experience) over 6 games (total) and preferred the 0/2 the best. Basically, Clamp should be your go-to engine but you also need backups in games where you fail to draw one and/or they get removed.
I also highly recommend moving away from Faithless Looting and more towards Light Up the Stage. Looting is pure card disadvantage whereas LUS is a straight 1 mana draw 2. Looting is obviously fantastic if you're doing something with your GY, Living Death springs to mind for example, but if you're looking for "dig" then LUS is the new hotness in Red that everyone should adopt asap.
Rakdos means Hellbent; Hellbent means no cards in hand. I'd look into some sort of Discard outlets. since you can't play cards from your hand, they're useless.
something like Scroll Rack or Credit Voucher can cycle your hand- put the discard fodder into your hand, and get the things you want to cast topdecked.
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Yeah, Light Up the Stage is a great replacement for Faithless Looting. Hadn't experimented with it before now but gold-fished a few games with it in the rakdos list and was pleasantly surprised.
I gave the first deck a shot with some minor tweaks. Added a land ( I like hitting 3 land drops in Clamp decks), cut the Faithless Lootings (the deck doesn't use them for anything) and removed some of the 1 drops for things like Phyrexian Altar, Pawn of Ulamog and Pitiless Plunderer. I also tested Risk Factor, Light Up the Stage and Theater of Horrors because why not? Experimental Frenzy was great when I had nothing else going on but I never wanted to use it if I had a Skullclamp going because that was always a better use of my resources. I tried 0-2-4 (testing 1 and 3 doesn't help much in my experience) over 6 games (total) and preferred the 0/2 the best. Basically, Clamp should be your go-to engine but you also need backups in games where you fail to draw one and/or they get removed.
I was trying to build a different deck that revolved around Experimental Frenzy since it seemed like a fun card and I saw a number of people saying they were excited about frenzy and wanted to see a multiplayer version. I originally tried cards like Pawn of Ulamog in the deck but as I playtested, the more "higher" cmc cards I had, the more often they'd get stuck at the top of my library stopping the frenzy from digging deeper and forcing me to pass. That might not seem like a big deal but the more turns you pass with your key pieces in play, the higher percentage chance that an opponent will have some sort of removal for it. This is why there are a few marginal 1cmc cards like Footlight Fiend and Goblin Arsonist. They aren't the most OP cards but they allow me to continue to frenzy.
Granted, if we removed Experimental Frenzy altogether and just focused on using Skullclamp for our card draw, then it makes sense to add in all those higher cmc cards like Pawn of Ulamog and Living Death but then that's a completely different deck than what I was trying to create.
If you're talking about the goblin version then yeah you wouldn't need to attack but then that's another combo piece to add onto the list. Right now that deck is a 3 card combo (Experimental Frenzy, Runaway Steam-Kin and Goblin Recruiter). Adding a 4th card to that combo just makes it that much harder to pull off.
As for the rakdos version, that seems like a borderline win more card since it fits into the same slot as Zulaport Cutthroat as an AE dmg dealer. Although it could potentially be a replacement for the Zulaport Cutthroat since it's on color for the Runaway Steam-Kin counters but then you're givin up the life gain which might not be a great idea.
I'd look into some sort of Discard outlets. since you can't play cards from your hand, they're useless. something like Scroll Rack or Credit Voucher can cycle your hand- put the discard fodder into your hand, and get the things you want to cast topdecked.
Scroll Rack did cross my mind when I was originally thinking of cards to go with Experimental Frenzy but I realized those effects aren't needed for either versions of the deck. For the rakdos version, you want to keep backup versions of your key pieces in your hand in case your stuff gets removed and for the goblin version it shouldn't matter since once you resolve Experimental Frenzy, the game should be over.
I did the opposite lol. Skullclamp is oppressive and trivializes decision making for everyone in the game. Use Clamp, remove Clamp or lose to Clamp; those are your options. That's ridiculous given that it can hit as early as turn 1. Don't get me wrong, I'm saying this as someone who both plays with the card and suggests it so I'm not insulting anyone or anything. That being said I'm under no illusion that it's skill that's winning me games when I open with a turn 1 Stitcher's Supplier into turn 2 Clamp + Equip. Do you know how many cards I've seen at that point? SEVENTEEN. Literally more than a quarter of my deck and it's turn freaking 2. That's why I prefer to build decks that don't include it; so that you have some legitimate play and deckbuilding decisions to make. So I'll build a deck with Clamp for easy mode wins, but I'll also have a "sideboard" plan to make the deck something that's actually fun to play with/against.
I did the opposite lol. Skullclamp is oppressive and trivializes decision making for everyone in the game. Use Clamp, remove Clamp or lose to Clamp; those are your options. That's ridiculous given that it can hit as early as turn 1 lol. I'm saying this as someone who plays with the card and suggests that decks to include it, so I'm not insulting anyone or anything, but at no point do I feel like I'm playing a challenging game of Magic when I'm Clamping. That's why I prefer to build decks that don't include it so that you have some legitimate play and deckbuilding decisions to make.
Ahh, I see. When you were talking about testing the 0-2-4 methods I thought that was in reference to the Experimental Frenzy not the Skullclamp, lol. While Skullclamp is a very powerful card, I guess I just don;t try to abuse it as much as I could. When playtesting the deck, if I had both frenzy and clamp in play at the same time, I'd always use frenzy first then only use the clamp if a key combo piece was on top to save in my hand.
But yeah I completely understand what you're saying. I have a personal restricted list for some cards that I try not to play cause they're so good but if I do play them I'll only ever play em as a one of. Cards like Exsanguinate and Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
4x Viscera Seer
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Runaway Steam-Kin
4x Footlight Fiend
4x Goblin Arsonist
4x Mogg War Marshal
2x Goblin Bushwhacker
2x Judith, the Scourge Diva
2x Manaforge Cinder
4x Experimental Frenzy
4x Skullclamp
3x Faithless Looting
Land (19)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Luxury Suite
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Dragonskull Summit
3x Graven Cairns
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
The deck takes advantage of low cmc creatures (mostly 1 cost) with Runaway Steam-Kins ability to generate an absurd amount of mana. Flood the board with creatures and sac them with Viscera Seer/Skullclamp while your damaging everyone via Zulaport Cutthroat/Judith, the Scourge Diva.
Have a card you can't cast on top of your library cloggin up your Experimental Frenzy? Just sac a creature to Viscera Seer, scry it to the bottom and probably do some damage in the process. Or maybe you wanna keep that top card in case your Experimental Frenzy gets destroyed. Then throw one of your creatures under the Skullclamp to save it for later.
Non-Obvious Card Choices:
-Manaforge Cinder - to help convert some of that red Runaway Steam-Kin mana into black. Plus it's a red 1 cmc card.
-Mogg War Marshal - 3 bodies to sac for only 2 mana.
-Goblin Bushwhacker - in case you need/want to attack
Another idea I had with this deck was to make it heavily goblin focused and then stack the deck with Goblin Recruiter. It looked like something like this.
4x Foundry Street Denizen
2x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Guide
4x Goblin Recruiter
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Runaway Steam-Kin
4x Skirk Prospector
1x Boggart Forager
4x Faithless Looting
4x Experimental Frenzy
4x Skullclamp
Land (19)
19x Mountain
Just get an Experimental Frenzy and Runaway Steam-Kin into play then cast Goblin Recruiter and stack your deck with the rest of the goblins putting the Foundry Street Denizens at the top and the Goblin Bushwhackers at the bottom for haste.
A single mizer Boggart Forager cause there's always that guy who knows what deck you;re playing and will let you put all the goblins on top of your deck only to then counter your Experimental Frenzy to watch you sit there playing single 1/1s every turn.
What does Boggart Forager beat that your 2nd, 3rd and 4th copies of Goblin Recruiter doesn't? Seems like a wasted deckslot to me, with the caveat that I've never tried your version of the deck.
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At their cores, both decks are basically combo decks. The main use of Skullclamp is to quickly draw into your combo pieces as I'm not running white for Enlightened Tutor type effects. (Same goes for Faithless Looting.) In the Goblin version, once you have the combo pieces you don't really need to use the Skullclamp anymore as the deck is built to go off in a single turn.
In the rakdos version Skullclamp has two other functions besides just drawing into the combo pieces. 1) It can be used as a backup sac outlet in case you don't have your Viscera Seers. 2) Since the rakdos version probably won't go off all in a single turn, it's good to draw into backups of your combo pieces instead of just scrying them to the bottom in case you run into removal when you pass your turn.
So the goblin version is intended to be a 1-turn combo. With a Runaway Steam-Kin in play, cast Goblin Recruiter to stack your deck, cast Experimental Frenzy and then put all your other goblins into play ending of course with the two Goblin Bushwhackers. Boggart Forager is an odd choice and maybe it's a bit of a meta call but I know there are people in my playgroup that would love nothing more than to let me cast the recruiter, put 30 goblins on top of my deck and then counter my frenzy to watch me sit there and draw 1 cmc creatures the rest of the game.
You're right in that Goblin Recruiter has a similar function to Boggart Forager. The main difference being the cmc and that one extra mana is a huge difference. When first starting out playing your goblins off the top with frenzy, your'e very limited on mana and can only afford the 1 cmc creatures because you need three red spells to get 3 mana off the Runaway Steam-Kin. All the goblins are 1 cmc besides the recruiter. Yes even the Mogg War Marshal is a pseudo-1cmc card because you can sac him to the Skirk Prospector without losing a body and bodies are important at the end when you're mass attacking.
You might be thinking, well why don't we just use the recruiter with the Skirk Prospector? Can't you just put him on top and put Goblin Recruiter second? Yes, you can, but if your frenzy gets countered, that's two turns you'll then have to wait to reshuffle instead of just the one if you had Boggart Forager instead. But lets say nothing was countered and you play the Skirk Prospector, sac it then play the Goblin Recruiter and go off from there. You'll then have lost an attacker (the sacced prospector) AND you've put the Foundry Street Denizens further back in the order which will at the end make them smaller.
I've found Theater of Horrors to be up there as well... might be worth considering as an alternate / extra copy of Experimental Frenzy, given you're in colour.
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I also highly recommend moving away from Faithless Looting and more towards Light Up the Stage. Looting is pure card disadvantage whereas LUS is a straight 1 mana draw 2. Looting is obviously fantastic if you're doing something with your GY, Living Death springs to mind for example, but if you're looking for "dig" then LUS is the new hotness in Red that everyone should adopt asap.
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something like Scroll Rack or Credit Voucher can cycle your hand- put the discard fodder into your hand, and get the things you want to cast topdecked.
if you REALLY want to do something crazy... go infinite. Skirk Prospector + Mortuary. Impact Tremors or Furious Assault for infinite damage, Mana Echoes for endless mana...
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Yeah, Light Up the Stage is a great replacement for Faithless Looting. Hadn't experimented with it before now but gold-fished a few games with it in the rakdos list and was pleasantly surprised.
Yeah in an aristocrat type deck, Skullclamp will almost always be better when compared to Experimental Frenzy but I already have SOO many decks that revolve around good ol Skullclamp/Bloodghast/Reassembling Skeleton type combos for card draw.
I was trying to build a different deck that revolved around Experimental Frenzy since it seemed like a fun card and I saw a number of people saying they were excited about frenzy and wanted to see a multiplayer version. I originally tried cards like Pawn of Ulamog in the deck but as I playtested, the more "higher" cmc cards I had, the more often they'd get stuck at the top of my library stopping the frenzy from digging deeper and forcing me to pass. That might not seem like a big deal but the more turns you pass with your key pieces in play, the higher percentage chance that an opponent will have some sort of removal for it. This is why there are a few marginal 1cmc cards like Footlight Fiend and Goblin Arsonist. They aren't the most OP cards but they allow me to continue to frenzy.
Granted, if we removed Experimental Frenzy altogether and just focused on using Skullclamp for our card draw, then it makes sense to add in all those higher cmc cards like Pawn of Ulamog and Living Death but then that's a completely different deck than what I was trying to create.
If you're talking about the goblin version then yeah you wouldn't need to attack but then that's another combo piece to add onto the list. Right now that deck is a 3 card combo (Experimental Frenzy, Runaway Steam-Kin and Goblin Recruiter). Adding a 4th card to that combo just makes it that much harder to pull off.
As for the rakdos version, that seems like a borderline win more card since it fits into the same slot as Zulaport Cutthroat as an AE dmg dealer. Although it could potentially be a replacement for the Zulaport Cutthroat since it's on color for the Runaway Steam-Kin counters but then you're givin up the life gain which might not be a great idea.
Scroll Rack did cross my mind when I was originally thinking of cards to go with Experimental Frenzy but I realized those effects aren't needed for either versions of the deck. For the rakdos version, you want to keep backup versions of your key pieces in your hand in case your stuff gets removed and for the goblin version it shouldn't matter since once you resolve Experimental Frenzy, the game should be over.
I did the opposite lol. Skullclamp is oppressive and trivializes decision making for everyone in the game. Use Clamp, remove Clamp or lose to Clamp; those are your options. That's ridiculous given that it can hit as early as turn 1. Don't get me wrong, I'm saying this as someone who both plays with the card and suggests it so I'm not insulting anyone or anything. That being said I'm under no illusion that it's skill that's winning me games when I open with a turn 1 Stitcher's Supplier into turn 2 Clamp + Equip. Do you know how many cards I've seen at that point? SEVENTEEN. Literally more than a quarter of my deck and it's turn freaking 2. That's why I prefer to build decks that don't include it; so that you have some legitimate play and deckbuilding decisions to make. So I'll build a deck with Clamp for easy mode wins, but I'll also have a "sideboard" plan to make the deck something that's actually fun to play with/against.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Ahh, I see. When you were talking about testing the 0-2-4 methods I thought that was in reference to the Experimental Frenzy not the Skullclamp, lol. While Skullclamp is a very powerful card, I guess I just don;t try to abuse it as much as I could. When playtesting the deck, if I had both frenzy and clamp in play at the same time, I'd always use frenzy first then only use the clamp if a key combo piece was on top to save in my hand.
But yeah I completely understand what you're saying. I have a personal restricted list for some cards that I try not to play cause they're so good but if I do play them I'll only ever play em as a one of. Cards like Exsanguinate and Gray Merchant of Asphodel.