I've been reworking my old multiplayer BG Dredge list for a while, never quite happy with the setup. On the M19 thread here I noticed someone bring up that Desecrated Tomb is perfect with Tortured Existence so I decided to try a build focusing around TE. The result has turned out quite nicely!
I ended up running just 1 Tomb, since it's a nice value engine with Tortured Existence (and Krovikan Horror) but slots are tight for non-creatures and the list needed more speed and less durdling in testing. The real allstar from M19 is Stitcher's Supplier which is a huge boost to the archetype as a premier 1 drop that works especially great with Dread Return. Archfiend of Ifnir is oppressive with a Tortured Existence running and the enchantment also lets you stack Krovikan Horror however you like, put dredgers back in the yard where they belong, gain oodles of life with Golgari Brownscale, or get endless value and card selection from Skullwinder.
Obviously this list is not as broken as dredge can get, foregoing combo finishes or Bridge From Below shenanigans. It's intended to be pretty budget-friendly and (a little bit) fair. I've been having a lot of fun with it, and I think there's a lot of directions you could go with M19's new graveyard toys!
I'd cut the Songs and the Returns. You don't have any mana sinks and you already have World Shaper and Crypt for endgame ramp. Return doesn't have enough relevant targets.
What I would play is a couple of Evolutionary Leaps and maybe a Diabolic Servitude or two. Or even a card like Deathreap Ritual. Leap is busted with Stitcher/Satyr and the fact that Commune can nab it is icing on the cake. I definitely want to see a couple of those in the list. The number of decks that I now start with:
Is staggering. Like you can go turn 1 Stitcher, turn 2 Satyr, turn 3 Diabolic Intent your Stitcher for Crypt of Agadeem, play it, and set up for a bonkers turn 4. After all, you've milled 10 cards + Sticher's in the bin for 11 total hits at critters. It's nuts.
FWIW I'd play the 4th Crypt. Your deck doesn't have many 1 drops, it's great in multiples and the floor on the card is still insanely high. You only need 4 creatures for it to be an Ancient Tomb and the fact that curving Stitcher into Satyr means that you're milling 7 cards (10 once Sticher dies + the Stitcher itself) means that it's frequently tapping for 4-5 mana on turn 5-6. Don't forget about Stinkweed Imp either because when you hit + Dredge that early on it only gets better.
Card is busted with Tortured Existence. You get an instant-speed Plague Wind every turn that even affects like things like Eldrazi and Blightsteel Colossus. It also doesn't cost you any cards, just mana. I'm betting that you haven't seen that combo in action yet :P.
Worth noting that Deed is "hittable" with Commune with the Gods and that Fleshbag Marauder + Tortured Existence is a soft-lock for creature-based strategies. That being said I dislike Deed in TE decks since I'd rather keep my TE than blow up the board.
.... I'm betting that you haven't seen that combo in action yet :P.
No I haven't - the combo is obvious to see.
TE attracts removal quick-smart in my group for obvious reasons, so whilst this combo looks very effective, TE being the only card that turns this combo on is something I have to pay attention to.
Worth noting that Deed is "hittable" with Commune with the Gods and that Fleshbag Marauder + Tortured Existence is a soft-lock for creature-based strategies. That being said I dislike Deed in TE decks since I'd rather keep my TE than blow up the board.
True, and CwtG is exactly why I've gone back to this old card. The reason I use PD over creature based removal, like Acidic Slime, Reclamation Sage etc., is simply to kill EVERYTHING in one hit. I tend to find one really good wipe will win you the attrition war against most opponents, and will routinely attract the single-target removal before TE (which is good!). That said, you're right, it's not the best choice but it's worked well for me so far.
Helm of Possession is worth a thought - you get your creature back into the grave where you want it for TE & you get to steal the best before Archfiend does it's thing.
TE attracts removal quick-smart in my group for obvious reasons, so whilst this combo looks very effective, TE being the only card that turns this combo on is something I have to pay attention to.
FWIW this is why most versions of this deck play 4x Lotleth Troll/Noose Constrictor. I realize that his doesn't, but it probably should. I also tend to play 4-5 Dredgers where this deck only fields 3 which seems low. You rarely need multiples but the deck doesn't feel nearly as powerful if you don't find one in a reasonable timeframe. Obviously you can field 4-5 and still fail to find one in 30 cards, it happens, but not very often.
I played a Pauper version of this deck (for non-Pauper multiplayer, quite the challenge) and was quite impressed with Gnaw to the Bone. I'm not normally a fan of pure lifegain cards but this routinely gains 20+ life for "free" out of the 'yard. Looping Golgari Brownscale is nice but it pales in comparison.
You don't need a ton of copies either. 2 is more than enough. You don't want to see it for a long time but come turn 10-15, he's right, it's a nice 20 life and it's usually free upside because it gets naturally milled.
I would definitely not cut Archfiend of Ifnir, because it's actually the most powerful thing this deck is doing. Getting a bunch of tokens or a giant creature is good, but Plague Wind-ing every turn is better. That said, I do agree that it would be good to have an additional discard outlet beyond TE and Lotleth Troll is a great suggestion! I like that it's a black creature for counting purposes in the graveyard, has no cost on the discard to let you active Archfiend the turn you play it, and also functions as a pretty good early roadblock. The troll even grows enormous with multiple Krovikan Horrors to loop.
Dread Return may only be reanimating 4-5 mana non-combo creatures which certainly isn't it's highest power level, but it's still a card which puts a strong creature into play for no mana while being cast from the graveyard, and at a cost which is usually negligible if not beneficial. It's especially great for reanimating a free Archfiend so you can pay for TE activations as soon as it hits. I may trim the number since I have few targets, but I think a couple are very good.
The Songs of the Damned are in because the deck had a tendency to spend up to 4 turns just durdling with resources before it actually did anything which powerfully affected the board and this was just too slow. Songs got out an Archfiend or Kessig Cagebreakers or Desecrated Tomb + TE activations a turn or two early. I do think it's a poor fit for the deck at many points in the game though, and having a few solid early blockers (Lotleth Trolls) may make the speed bump unnecessary.
Diabolic Intent would be superb here but I don't really feel like spending for them. I think 4 Archfiend gives me enough creature control to forego Pernicious Deed and Fleshbag Marauder.
I like that these changes give a nice boost to the creature count, and specifically the black creature count in the deck. I would love to find room for another Stinkweed Imp, since the dredge count really is low and for another Desecrated Tomb as well since I run so few actual threats/win conditions... It's hard to find the cuts though. This deck has major 60 card syndrome!
The Songs of the Damned are in because the deck had a tendency to spend up to 4 turns just durdling with resources before it actually did anything...
This is pretty much why I suggested Dark Ritual & Culling the Weak. I use Culling in my TE deck, as the synergy it has with TE is helpful to get certain creatures back to the grave where you can use/abuse ETB triggers.
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4 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Golgari Brownscale
1 Skullwinder
2 Stinkweed Imp
2 Krovikan Horror
1 World Shaper
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Kessig Cagebreakers
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Songs of the Damned
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Desecrated Tomb
3 Dread Return
3 Crypt of Agadeem
3 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Jungle Hollow
4 Llanowar Wastes
5 Forest
6 Swamp
I ended up running just 1 Tomb, since it's a nice value engine with Tortured Existence (and Krovikan Horror) but slots are tight for non-creatures and the list needed more speed and less durdling in testing. The real allstar from M19 is Stitcher's Supplier which is a huge boost to the archetype as a premier 1 drop that works especially great with Dread Return. Archfiend of Ifnir is oppressive with a Tortured Existence running and the enchantment also lets you stack Krovikan Horror however you like, put dredgers back in the yard where they belong, gain oodles of life with Golgari Brownscale, or get endless value and card selection from Skullwinder.
Vengeful Pharaoh is a great early- to mid-game disincentive, Kessig Cagebreakers is a powerful finisher, and World Shaper is actually incredible, often returning 6+ lands while helping flash back a Dread Return. Songs of the Damned provides a major speed-boost and can fuel a ton of TE activations.
Obviously this list is not as broken as dredge can get, foregoing combo finishes or Bridge From Below shenanigans. It's intended to be pretty budget-friendly and (a little bit) fair. I've been having a lot of fun with it, and I think there's a lot of directions you could go with M19's new graveyard toys!
What I would play is a couple of Evolutionary Leaps and maybe a Diabolic Servitude or two. Or even a card like Deathreap Ritual. Leap is busted with Stitcher/Satyr and the fact that Commune can nab it is icing on the cake. I definitely want to see a couple of those in the list. The number of decks that I now start with:
4x Satyr Wayfinder
2x Evolutionary Leap
2x Diabolic Intent
Is staggering. Like you can go turn 1 Stitcher, turn 2 Satyr, turn 3 Diabolic Intent your Stitcher for Crypt of Agadeem, play it, and set up for a bonkers turn 4. After all, you've milled 10 cards + Sticher's in the bin for 11 total hits at critters. It's nuts.
FWIW I'd play the 4th Crypt. Your deck doesn't have many 1 drops, it's great in multiples and the floor on the card is still insanely high. You only need 4 creatures for it to be an Ancient Tomb and the fact that curving Stitcher into Satyr means that you're milling 7 cards (10 once Sticher dies + the Stitcher itself) means that it's frequently tapping for 4-5 mana on turn 5-6. Don't forget about Stinkweed Imp either because when you hit + Dredge that early on it only gets better.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Songs of the Damned doesn't really have anything crazy to do here (like Rise of the Dark Realms types). I'm assuming you're looking to combo Tortured Existence (with Archfiend & Songs) for a pseudo-wipe of sorts?
I prefer Culling the Weak or Dark Ritual for this slot, as they're focussed on those first few turns.
Is Archfiend of Ifnir worth it? Have you considered Sidisi, Undead Vizier or Bloodgift Demon?
I personally play Pernicious Deed with Fleshbag Marauder, as they answer (in tandem) just about everything.
If you're gonna play with Songs for the Damned, Golgari Grave-Troll, Kessig Cagebreakers types, how about Hermit Druid?
I know the card is contentious, but running some basics does bring it back to the realms of fair.
Card is busted with Tortured Existence. You get an instant-speed Plague Wind every turn that even affects like things like Eldrazi and Blightsteel Colossus. It also doesn't cost you any cards, just mana. I'm betting that you haven't seen that combo in action yet :P.
Worth noting that Deed is "hittable" with Commune with the Gods and that Fleshbag Marauder + Tortured Existence is a soft-lock for creature-based strategies. That being said I dislike Deed in TE decks since I'd rather keep my TE than blow up the board.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
No I haven't - the combo is obvious to see.
TE attracts removal quick-smart in my group for obvious reasons, so whilst this combo looks very effective, TE being the only card that turns this combo on is something I have to pay attention to.
True, and CwtG is exactly why I've gone back to this old card. The reason I use PD over creature based removal, like Acidic Slime, Reclamation Sage etc., is simply to kill EVERYTHING in one hit. I tend to find one really good wipe will win you the attrition war against most opponents, and will routinely attract the single-target removal before TE (which is good!). That said, you're right, it's not the best choice but it's worked well for me so far.
Helm of Possession is worth a thought - you get your creature back into the grave where you want it for TE & you get to steal the best before Archfiend does it's thing.
FWIW this is why most versions of this deck play 4x Lotleth Troll/Noose Constrictor. I realize that his doesn't, but it probably should. I also tend to play 4-5 Dredgers where this deck only fields 3 which seems low. You rarely need multiples but the deck doesn't feel nearly as powerful if you don't find one in a reasonable timeframe. Obviously you can field 4-5 and still fail to find one in 30 cards, it happens, but not very often.
It's also really, really, really good :P. Let's not pretend as though anyone is hating on Deed :).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
You don't need a ton of copies either. 2 is more than enough. You don't want to see it for a long time but come turn 10-15, he's right, it's a nice 20 life and it's usually free upside because it gets naturally milled.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Dread Return may only be reanimating 4-5 mana non-combo creatures which certainly isn't it's highest power level, but it's still a card which puts a strong creature into play for no mana while being cast from the graveyard, and at a cost which is usually negligible if not beneficial. It's especially great for reanimating a free Archfiend so you can pay for TE activations as soon as it hits. I may trim the number since I have few targets, but I think a couple are very good.
The Songs of the Damned are in because the deck had a tendency to spend up to 4 turns just durdling with resources before it actually did anything which powerfully affected the board and this was just too slow. Songs got out an Archfiend or Kessig Cagebreakers or Desecrated Tomb + TE activations a turn or two early. I do think it's a poor fit for the deck at many points in the game though, and having a few solid early blockers (Lotleth Trolls) may make the speed bump unnecessary.
Diabolic Intent would be superb here but I don't really feel like spending for them. I think 4 Archfiend gives me enough creature control to forego Pernicious Deed and Fleshbag Marauder.
My current changes: -3 Songs of the Damned, -1 Dread Return for +3 Lotleth Troll, +1 Krovikan Horror.
I like that these changes give a nice boost to the creature count, and specifically the black creature count in the deck. I would love to find room for another Stinkweed Imp, since the dredge count really is low and for another Desecrated Tomb as well since I run so few actual threats/win conditions... It's hard to find the cuts though. This deck has major 60 card syndrome!
This is pretty much why I suggested Dark Ritual & Culling the Weak. I use Culling in my TE deck, as the synergy it has with TE is helpful to get certain creatures back to the grave where you can use/abuse ETB triggers.