In the past, what I've read regarding bouncelands is that, for the exchange in lost tempo, these lands count effectively as 1.5 lands since a starting hand containing a bounceland and a basic is essentially a three land hand. My question is really simple: Does this basically mean that a deck like the one posted above can run with only 22 lands if two are bouncelands or would it be in my best interest to stop being greedy and make a hard cut? If this deck, which really wants to curve out, is not the best choice, what kind of curve most benefits from bouncelands?
This isn't a deck that should be playing Bouncelands. Aggro decks can't afford the tempo hit and you need to be casting your spells on curve, every turn of every game. Otherwise you'll lose to the people who aren't playing horrible jank like Pulse Tracker. Don't get me wrong, I love the card in your deck, but when you match it up to Grave Titan or whatever you realize that it has to win early or else it looks embarrassing. You definitely want at least 1 more land in there but with that much draw you don't need the 24th. The math for going 3-for-3 says that you want 23 untapped sources and since that will get you to Viscera Seer, Mindblade Render, Dark Prophecy and Phyrexian Arena all on curve this should be a 23 Swamp deck. From there your draw engines can do the heavy-lifting for lands 4-5.
With respect to "which decks should be playing them" the answer is basically "everything else." All of your Control, Ramp, Midrange, etc. lists that aren't curving out with spells every turn of every game can find a spot to jam a Bounceland while casting a 2 drop or something along those lines. It's not a about a specific curve or anything, you just have to be able to find the time to "waste" on the Bounceland so anything that's fine with a long, slow, grindy game of Magic should seriously consider them.
OOC with that many 3+ drops have you considered Dark Ritual at all? It's 0.5 mana sources for counting purposes and turn 1 Phyrexian Arena is bonkers. I've played a lot of MBD and one of my favorite builds features Arenas, Nightveil Specters and Dark Rituals to cast them on turn 1. Turn 1 Prophecy makes removal look pathetic as well but I prefer something more active. Something to think about.
FWIW I would test -2x Pulse Tracker for Mardu Shadowspear and Mindblade Render. That, to me, is EASILY your strongest 1-2 opening curve. I get that Sanctum Seeker is a card but we all realize how bonkers Mindblade Render on turn 2 off of a turn 1 Warrior is right? Not only is it a 2 CMC Arena, it's a 2 CMC Arena that IMMEDIATELY draws a card. That is absolutely freaking nuts. That would warp Vintage :P. I would expect to win most of the games where I open with that. I know that the math on getting the perfect turn 1 and 2 play is low (roughly 25% if your mulligan bad 7 card hands) but it's so good when you get it that it's worth building for.
Thanks as always, Prid3. I'll definitely try out the Dark Ritual package. My only concern is knowing how much mass removal my group plays. Prophecy helps to mitigate that since one drops are squishy.
As a side note, when you have played this deck, does it ever feel not as powerful compared to other decks? How do you ensure you stay in the game?
As a side note, when you have played this deck, does it ever feel not as powerful compared to other decks?
For sure. The deck lacks interaction, is monocolor, features a slew of "bad" cards and is usually built on a budget. It's not supposed to the best deck at the table, it's supposed to be the best deck at the table built for $20.00. That's how I look at it anyways.
There's no easy answer to this question, but "play better cards" is one of the only meaningful changes that you can make to this type of deck. If going fast doesn't work then go slow and add more top-end like Josu Vess, Lich Knight and Massacre Wurm. If going fair doesn't work then work in something unfair. Waste Not is very good and there's plenty of cards like Lilia's Specter that support it. There's also Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and/or Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void. LoTV is especially relevant in Devotion decks given that it's routinely hitting the field on turn 0 so it pulls double-duty for cards like Nykthos and Gary. And look, I get it, cards cost money. That fact isn't lost on me. It's just that there's no magic solutions to these types of problems so you have to eb realistic about how far your $20.00 deck will take you. You can tweak the numbers and shift the curve but at the end of the day it's still a monoblack deck.
Thanks, in testing the deck has performed much better than my previous more midrange iteration.
I also took your advice by dropping Pulse Tracker and maxing out the Warriors.
Unrelated to the original topic, do you think Sanctum Seeker is worth including or are there better four drops that I'm missing? It's been a little hit or miss. Either it's very good or doesn't live.
Secondly, Zulaport Cutthroat has, as expected, over-performed, but I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut for number four. What do you all think?
Fingers crossed that they print a Warrior-Vampire Pulse Tracker soon.
Unrelated to the original topic, do you think Sanctum Seeker is worth including or are there better four drops that I'm missing? It's been a little hit or miss. Either it's very good or doesn't live.
I finally got to use this deck this week and it worked really well, winning four or of five games.
I still don't really love Sanctum Seekers in the four drop slot, but have been testing a version that uses Pulse Tracker and Dusk Legion Zealot instead of the warriors, since Mindblade Render usually only drew me one or two cards anyway.
Another option, since the ones Prid3 listed are a little too pricey for me at the moment or, like Gonti, aren't aggressive enough, would be to use Howling Banshee. Has anyone played this card? Am I wrong and is it just straight garbage?
Another option, since the ones Prid3 listed are a little too pricey for me at the moment or, like Gonti, aren't aggressive enough, would be to use Howling Banshee. Has anyone played this card? Am I wrong and is it just straight garbage?
If it's consistently dealing more damage than Sanctum Seeker then it's not garbage. My issues is that Sanctum Seeker, in my experience, typically deals 3 damage to each opponent (not you), gains you some life, leaves you with a better blocker and threatens to do more damage on every subsequent turn.
IME, relating to mono-black, Gonti's Machinations & Dark Ritual go into every list I make.
Since you're playing an aggro version, I'm not sure you'd find room for both, but I wouldn't play without DR considering your number of 3-drops, and your amount of draw.
My version runs Dark Ritual & Heartless Summoning for acceleration with Bloodgift Demon instead of Dark Prophecy.
Sanctum Seeker is my experience is a good card, but anything with extort can easily do the same job.
I'd straight swap them for Thrull Parasite.
Personally I'd consider pumping your hand onto the table as quickly as possible given your raw power in card draw, so I'd max out on early plays.
Then you either sac them to Zulaport into Living Death, or you drop Gary.
Sanctum Seeker doesn't really fit here being both a vampire tribal card option and more importantly, being a 4-drop that doesn't really help you win.
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3 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Vicious Conquistador
2 Pulse Tracker
4 Viscera Seer
4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Zulaport Cutthroat
3 Mindblade Render
3CC (6)
3 Dark Prophecy
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Sanctum Seeker
5CC (6)
3 Living Death
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Lands
20 Swamp
2 Orzhov Basilica
In the past, what I've read regarding bouncelands is that, for the exchange in lost tempo, these lands count effectively as 1.5 lands since a starting hand containing a bounceland and a basic is essentially a three land hand. My question is really simple: Does this basically mean that a deck like the one posted above can run with only 22 lands if two are bouncelands or would it be in my best interest to stop being greedy and make a hard cut? If this deck, which really wants to curve out, is not the best choice, what kind of curve most benefits from bouncelands?
With respect to "which decks should be playing them" the answer is basically "everything else." All of your Control, Ramp, Midrange, etc. lists that aren't curving out with spells every turn of every game can find a spot to jam a Bounceland while casting a 2 drop or something along those lines. It's not a about a specific curve or anything, you just have to be able to find the time to "waste" on the Bounceland so anything that's fine with a long, slow, grindy game of Magic should seriously consider them.
OOC with that many 3+ drops have you considered Dark Ritual at all? It's 0.5 mana sources for counting purposes and turn 1 Phyrexian Arena is bonkers. I've played a lot of MBD and one of my favorite builds features Arenas, Nightveil Specters and Dark Rituals to cast them on turn 1. Turn 1 Prophecy makes removal look pathetic as well but I prefer something more active. Something to think about.
FWIW I would test -2x Pulse Tracker for Mardu Shadowspear and Mindblade Render. That, to me, is EASILY your strongest 1-2 opening curve. I get that Sanctum Seeker is a card but we all realize how bonkers Mindblade Render on turn 2 off of a turn 1 Warrior is right? Not only is it a 2 CMC Arena, it's a 2 CMC Arena that IMMEDIATELY draws a card. That is absolutely freaking nuts. That would warp Vintage :P. I would expect to win most of the games where I open with that. I know that the math on getting the perfect turn 1 and 2 play is low (roughly 25% if your mulligan bad 7 card hands) but it's so good when you get it that it's worth building for.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
As a side note, when you have played this deck, does it ever feel not as powerful compared to other decks? How do you ensure you stay in the game?
For sure. The deck lacks interaction, is monocolor, features a slew of "bad" cards and is usually built on a budget. It's not supposed to the best deck at the table, it's supposed to be the best deck at the table built for $20.00. That's how I look at it anyways.
There's no easy answer to this question, but "play better cards" is one of the only meaningful changes that you can make to this type of deck. If going fast doesn't work then go slow and add more top-end like Josu Vess, Lich Knight and Massacre Wurm. If going fair doesn't work then work in something unfair. Waste Not is very good and there's plenty of cards like Lilia's Specter that support it. There's also Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and/or Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void. LoTV is especially relevant in Devotion decks given that it's routinely hitting the field on turn 0 so it pulls double-duty for cards like Nykthos and Gary. And look, I get it, cards cost money. That fact isn't lost on me. It's just that there's no magic solutions to these types of problems so you have to eb realistic about how far your $20.00 deck will take you. You can tweak the numbers and shift the curve but at the end of the day it's still a monoblack deck.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I also took your advice by dropping Pulse Tracker and maxing out the Warriors.
Unrelated to the original topic, do you think Sanctum Seeker is worth including or are there better four drops that I'm missing? It's been a little hit or miss. Either it's very good or doesn't live.
Secondly, Zulaport Cutthroat has, as expected, over-performed, but I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut for number four. What do you all think?
Fingers crossed that they print a Warrior-Vampire Pulse Tracker soon.
Here's my updated list:
4 Mardu Shadowspear
3 Vicious Conquistador
4 Viscera Seer
2CC (10)
4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Mindblade Render
3 Dark Prophecy
3 Phyrexian Arena
4CC (3)
3 Sanctum Seeker
5CC (6)
3 Living Death
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
23 Swamp
I only run Seekers in pure Vampire aggro decks that max out on cheap bodies and things like Throne of the God-Pharaoh. For midrange decks I prefer things like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Phyrexian Obliterator, Grave Pact, Gonti, Lord of Luxury, Vindictive Lich, Pestilence, Corpse Augur, etc.
I'd cut an Aetherborn and dump the Sanctum Seekers.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I still don't really love Sanctum Seekers in the four drop slot, but have been testing a version that uses Pulse Tracker and Dusk Legion Zealot instead of the warriors, since Mindblade Render usually only drew me one or two cards anyway.
Another option, since the ones Prid3 listed are a little too pricey for me at the moment or, like Gonti, aren't aggressive enough, would be to use Howling Banshee. Has anyone played this card? Am I wrong and is it just straight garbage?
If it's consistently dealing more damage than Sanctum Seeker then it's not garbage. My issues is that Sanctum Seeker, in my experience, typically deals 3 damage to each opponent (not you), gains you some life, leaves you with a better blocker and threatens to do more damage on every subsequent turn.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Since you're playing an aggro version, I'm not sure you'd find room for both, but I wouldn't play without DR considering your number of 3-drops, and your amount of draw.
My version runs Dark Ritual & Heartless Summoning for acceleration with Bloodgift Demon instead of Dark Prophecy.
Sanctum Seeker is my experience is a good card, but anything with extort can easily do the same job.
I'd straight swap them for Thrull Parasite.
Personally I'd consider pumping your hand onto the table as quickly as possible given your raw power in card draw, so I'd max out on early plays.
Then you either sac them to Zulaport into Living Death, or you drop Gary.
Sanctum Seeker doesn't really fit here being both a vampire tribal card option and more importantly, being a 4-drop that doesn't really help you win.