The other day I pulled a Torment of Hailfire in a pack and got to thinking that the only way I would run it in EDH is in a Mono-Black deck with the ability to generate a bunch of mana. I started thinking of how I wanted the deck to be built and I thought Ghoulcaller Gisa would make a good general that I could use to command a Zombie tribal deck.
As I went through the choices for the deck list I found a bunch of zombie synergies I wanted to include as well as some other cards that were not zombies. As I built the deck I thought of making it solely zombie tribal. Then, I decided to include a number of non-zombie creatures with just a heavy focus on Zombies. As I finalized the list, I found that due to mana curve concerns or a variety of other reasons, I ended up with a pretty solid build of mostly zombie creatures with 5-10 non-zombies so I just cut most of the rest of the non-zombies to make it almost all zombies.
As I got more into it, I realized there were a couple of blue zombies that would be cool to have. Havengul Lich and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born were the two big ones. Plus, blue gives me a couple other cards that I would like to include (Timetwister effects mostly). As such, I cut most of the "big mana" spells like Torment.
I chose Grimgrin as the general because he works as removal as I need him and it is a built in sac outlet to work with the zombies I have that care about zombies dying. I figured if I could get 1 or 2 of them on the board and then sac my board to Grimgrin, it could cause a lot of life loss for my opponents.
The main thing I wanted to focus on was the Zombies. So, I tried to keep my non-creature spells to a minimum. That is the biggest reason that, beyond mana Drain the deck does not run any counterspells. Blue basically gives me a bunch of card draw and I have a few black card draw options as well.
Expedition Map is in there to get me to my Diamond Valley, Cabal Coffers, or Urborg depending on what I needed at the time.
My non-zombie creatures are basically utility creatures and I included a couple cards meant to get my creatures back from the graveyard en masse.
I did still include Exsanguinate as the one remaining "big mana" spell where I can generate a bunch of black mana and try to drain everyone for lethal or just to gain a bunch of life as needed.
I am hoping to have most of the cards by Wednesday so I can try this deck out, but it seems pretty solid. If nothing else, it at least seems really fun. I don't do much with tribal decks (Vampires being the only one I have really built and kept built) so I thought it would be fun to try a zombie build.
I'm also thinking that Greed is better than Arguel's Blood Fast. Are you planning on getting bellow 5 life? I find the Blood Fast kinda awkward in EDH.
Gisa and Geralf is tight in a reanimator package/theme. If you're going that route - the token route - then Gisa and/or G&G and Dawn of the Dead and a sac outlet. And Dawn is uber on theme.
I've been torn between changing my mono black Gisa deck into Dimir Zombies, but every time I try, I get all sentimental.
I had thought about Rooftop Storm but didn't want to have a 6 mana enchantment in the deck as I wanted to keep the creature count as high as I could. I can't think of a noncreature I would want to cut for it. Perhaps this is wrong and I have one sitting by for now. I am hoping to play the list as it is now to determine if Rooftop Storm is even needed. My Goldfishing says it might not be but I could change my mind.
I actually did consider Greed, but Blood Fast being 2 mana to cast feels better. The ability to transform is a nice added bonus in case it ever matters, but it is there mainly to get some early card draw in.
I had thought of Gisa and Geralf and I am almost positive it is a mistake not to run them. I just didn't like the mill aspect but getting zombies back from the graveyard is very good. I should probably cut Chainer as G&G are more on theme than Chainer is.
Dawn of the Dead is interesting and is not a card I even thought about. Since Grimgrin is a built-in sac outlet, I shouldn't have to worry too much about my stuff getting exiled.
So, based on your suggestions, I think I will cut Chainer for Gisa and Geralf and I will try to find room for Dawn of the Dead. I am not sold on Rooftop Storm but the synergy with Havengul Lich, as you pointed out, is pretty slick.
I just didn't know the direction you were going. I would go token rout, but that builds around mono Gisa/ Scarab God; whereas reanimator and self mill is probably a better build strategy for Dimir.
Yeah and also be careful cause' Noxious Ghoul kills non-zombies, so it's a play around at times with GG and solo Gisa. Chainer kinda screws you if they spot remove it so it'd high risk/high reward.
Gravecrawler can be cute with Skullclamp-style shenanigans but you're trying to be more creature-centered. Carrion Feeder gives you a free sac outlet that is on tribe.
I am not trying to go too far into tokens or reanimation (though I have some of both). I am just interested to see how well the deck can run with just casting as many zombies as possible (which is why I am starting to think your suggestion of Rooftop Storm is probably a good idea).
Regarding Ghoul: I already want to go as far into the zombie route as possible so his ability has very little drawback, but the anti-synergy with G&G is good to call out.
I did think about Gravecrawler and Skullclamp but I think my other card draw is more reliable as Gravecrawler will end up having a higher toughness than 1 if everything works out right. I also had Carrion Feeder in the list originally and ended up cutting it as I felt Grimgrin was reliable enough as my sac outlet and it doesn't give me any benefits other than its counters (unlike something Viscera Seer for example which has an additional effect).
With that in mind however, I could see cutting Arena for Skullclamp and finding a spot for both Gravecrawler and Carrion Feeder. I think if I include Crawler and Clamp for card draw shenanigans, I probably also want an additional sac outlet so I can sac anything else the clamp is attached to.
I still have yet to play the deck in a real game (I am hoping to do so tomorrow) so I will inevitably find some cards I don't like in the deck. Hopefully that leads me to some cuts for some of the above suggestions.
I run both Rooftop Storm and Havengul Lich in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck to much success. I have a tribal zombie build that looks to make as many zombie tokens as possible. Granted, sometimes Rooftop Storm may seem winmore, but it's so easy to produce a lot of mana in black decks. So being able to hardcast Rooftop Storm isn't unattainable. And, once you do, every other zombie will cost 1 to reanimate thanks to Havengul Lich. Oh, and Havengul Lich will get all of its activated abilities. That combo is great for reanimation strategies. It's even janky in any other deck if you use Arcane Adaptation so that all your creatures are zombies (which I also include in that aforementioned deck).
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Yeah I was about to say play Arcane Adaptation or Conspiracy, but I feel like those are kinda 'cute' cards that are just icing in some ways. However with subtype manipulation, you can play cards like Rune-Scarred Demon to get tutoring online; this is just adding cards and really you gotta see how it runs before you edit too much right?
So, I played this deck in one game tonight and I really enjoyed the way it played. I don't remember a lot of specifics, but here is a brief summary of the game:
I started off somewhat slow. I never missed a land drop and went Relentless Dead into Diregraf Colossus. The Colossus was an all star as it gave me quite a few zombies to work with. I then got Zombie Trailblazer, Havengul Lich and Plague Belcher on the board for a few turns. With Whip of Erebos I was able to gain life to stay alive as I was also able to hit for 9 unblockable damage with the Lich and Belcher. I also used Lich at one point to cast an opponent's Dark Impostor which kept me alive by getting rid of their biggest threats.
I ended up winning off reanimating a Noosegraf Mob, casting 3 spells, and then cycling a Gempalm Polluter to have the remaining player lose a bunch of life. I had killed the other player the turn prior by making my stuff unblockable with the Trailblazer.
All in all, the deck ran very well. One thing I had thought that would work better was Avatar of Woe. This was one of my favorite cards when I first started playing and I thought I would be able to cast it cheaply in this deck, but it never happened. Granted, there were only 3 players, but the most we ever got to was 9 creature cards in graveyards when I had it in my hand. And, since it is not a zombie, I am just going to find something else to put in its place.
Another couple thoughts I has:
I think I might try to find room for Gravecrawler and Skullclamp and I will cut Phyrexian Arena. I think I have enough other card draw anyway so adding another in Skullclamp means I probably don't still need Arena.
With the addition of Gravecrawler, it means I almost definitely will not include Rooftop Storm. This is because Storm, Gravecrawler, and Grimgrim is an infinite combo to make Grimgrin as big as I want. It is vulnerable but is still not something I want to have available in the deck.
On that note, I am thinking of also cutting Mana Drain. It is the only counter spell in the deck and I really don't want it. It is also somewhat difficult to get to 2 blue mana anyway (Kindred Discovery is good enough to strive for it though). I have so many blue decks already, I kind of like one without counters.
The last thing I am thinking of is Grave Pact. With Grimgrin as a built in sac outlet, and the addition of Gravecrawler, this card seems really good. With this, I feel I probably can afford to cut down on a Wrath and I think Mutilate is the one that can go.
Per a previous comment, I think cutting Chainer for Gisa and Geralf if the right call.
Winning off of Gempalm Polluter is always a great way to go about it. The ability is cycling so you're not really casting anything. So the only way to disrupt it would be with cards like Voidslime, Stifle, etc.
The lifelink thanks to Whip of Erebos is key if you also want to win with Shepherd of Rot. That way you will usually survive its activation.
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It funny you mention Shepherd of Rot because I got it on the battlefield late so I was unable to profitably activate its ability. But you are right that Whip of Erebos is key to keeping my life total high enough to activate it. If it had lived one more turn, I could have won with that due to the life Whip gained me.
It is also 2 mana so although I couldn't activate it, it did allow me to cast it to get a free Zombie from Diregraf Colossus so it was still useful for the Gempalm I cycled a couple turns later.
Based on a few suggestions above as well as some more playtesting, I have decided to cut the following cards:
Phyrexian Arena - Skullclamp seems much better in this deck and doesn't cost me life. I figured that should net me many more cards overall at a cheaper cost.
Avatar of Woe - I really wanted this to work. Maybe I will try it in a different deck in the future but this is not the right deck for it.
Chainer, Dementia Master - Gisa and Geralf are on theme. I know they are worse overall but I think they are good for the deck.
Mana Drain - This is my only counterspell in the deck and, while it is awesome, I don't really want any counterspells. I play too much blue as it is so I like having a blue deck that at least doesn't play counterspells and just tries to be as aggressive as possible,
Mutilate - With the addition of Grave Pact and another sac outlet, and the wraths I already have, I am thinking this may be a bit overkill.
The started off reasonably well. I made all my land drops and was able to get down a few threats. The biggest thing was getting down Grimgrin and having enough creatures to sacrifice to it. The Depala player had gotten down a Skysovereign, Consul Flagship that was able to keep some of the smaller creatures off the table. The ended up enchanting it with an Aura that kept it a creature which worked out well for me as it gave me a way to destroy it with Grimgrin. They also got down a Dwarven Blastminer. In the meantime, Edgar was spitting out Vampires left and right and Karametra started off very slow as they had lands, but no green mana.
As mentioned, I got Grimgrin online and I had a Coffers in hand. So, the first thing I did was attack the Depala player so I could destroy their Blastminer. I felt this was a bigger threat as I could deal with the Skysovereign for a couple turns. A couple turns later, I did destroy the Skysovereigh.
At some point, I got Gravecrawler and Skullclamp going so I was able to keep my hand full. This allowed me to get a larger board presence to help stave off Edgar. mostly. Karametra had started getting into the game at this point and got down an Aura Shards. This blew up my Skullclamp and then a few turns later my Kindred Discovery.
Importantly, I got Gravespawn Sovereign and Mikaeus the Unhallowed down along with a few other creatures. I was able to use these to reanimate other creatures. At some point I was able to Reanimate an opponent's Blood Artist. And, with tapping my stuff and sacrificing it to Grimgrim to get them back untapped, I was able to reanimate something else.
However, I was not able to keep up with Edgar so I had to cast Damnation. I started with Sacrificing Mikaeus Grimgrin firs as there was very little of mine that would return and I did not want Edgar to get Blood Artist back. This left me with 29 triggers from Blood Artist which was exceptionally relevant as I was at 4 life. I threw them all at Karametra which left them at 1 life.
I then cast Grimgrin again and passed the turn. I made a mistake here as I should have cast Gravecrawler from the graveyard so I had something to sac to Grimgrin. I didn't and Edgar ended up exiling my graveyard.
From here, it was a little slower as I tried to rebuild and Edgar just did it better. Depala and Karamtera actually rebuilt fairly well as well. I was able to get the last point of damage into Karametra a couple turns later. I then worked on Depala and killed them off a little later. The reason I went after the other two first was because Edgar was at 65+ life. With the other 2 hone, I could focus my energy on Edgar.
The ultimate play of the game came about when I only had 1 or two cards in hand and at about 30 life. I only had a couple creatures on board and Edgar was way ahead of me. However, I top decked Living Death. I played my Bojuka Bog to exile Edgar's graveyard (they only had butcher of Malakir and then cast Living Death. This left me with 4 creatures and then I cast Grimgrin for the 3rd or 4th time of the game. From there, I was able to get Grimgrin large enough to beat down and win the game very quickly after that.
I have had a number of other good games (not all that I have won of course) but this game was really good and really showed how well the deck could perform when the game went long. The game went on for a little over 2 hours when most games at this shop end around an hour.
I finally picked up a The Scarab God. I had originally wanted one for my Sidisi deck but I had ended up pulling that apart before picking this up. But, it felt like it fit very well into this deck even though it is not a Zombie.
I ended up cutting Gempalm Polluter. I never felt like the trigger ever made much of an impact and drawing a card was fairly low impact. It just felt like the right card to cut.
I decided to pick up a Stronghold Assassin for this deck. I feel that having another zombie is beneficial and this one is repeatable removal. To make room, I have decided to cut Kindred Discovery. The double blue is tough as it is sometimes hard enough to get to 1 blue mana. And the effect, while great, is not worthwhile enough at 5 mana. I think this is a better card for the deck.
Out of Dominaria, I have decided to give Cabal Stronghold a try. The majority of my lands are basics already and Urborg makes it so my Islands count, so it seems like a good inclusion. To make room, I am cutting Crypt of Agadeem . I don't want to cut a basic and Crypt is not often producing as much mana as I think Stronghold can.
I found that Whip of Erebos was not doing as much as I liked, so I decided to cut it and add back in Gempalm Polluter. The card draw and ability to close out a game if needed (at Instant Timing) make this a better card for the slot.
Not a lot has really come about with the last few sets. However, Josu Vess, Lich Knight seems like a decent card to add. He is not fantastic on his own (though a 4/5 with Menace for 4 isn't awful). But, paying the kicker cost seems like it could really be game breaking and since I can sometimes cast it from the graveyard I can use him to build up a small (or large) army.
To make room, I am going to cut Disciple of Bolas. Not only is it not a Zombie, but I don't really feel that it does as much as I want. I think the addition of Gravecrawler + Skullclamp works well to keep my hand full.
GRN brings Midnight Reaper to be added to this deck. I really want to try it out and it seems like it could be really good. I am not sure how much the damage with matter, but since it doesn't trigger off tokens I won't have to worry about dying from a board wipe from it too often.
I am going to cut Lich Lord of Unx to make room. I think I have activated its first ability *maybe* once or or twice, and I don't think I have ever activated its last ability. It seems good on paper, but in a real game it either doesn't do a lot or it gets stuck in hand as I try to get to blue mana. It feels like it can be cut for anything else and the Reaper seems like a good replacement.
I have run a Grimgrin deck for many years. My version was non-tribal but it had a heavy black mana base. I used to call it a black deck spice with blue. The majority of U/B dual lands do not help you if you are running swamps matter cards like Cabal Coffers.
You need everything you can reasonably use to fetch a swamp. I strongly recommend getting your hands on at least 4 swamp fetch lands. You also appear to be running too many non-basic utility lands. I would cut:
2x Island - Fetch's will make up for it. If you have an opponent who likes land destruction, don't tell them you only run 3. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Only useful when you are ahead. Better with non-creature permanents that stick around longer. Cabal Stronghold - Does not count non-basic swamps. Best for a pure mono black deck with very fewer utility lands. Underground River - Good but not a swamp. You are probably sad when you draw it late game with a healthy land base. Drowned Catacomb - See above
In the main deck, I would drop Josu Vess, Lich Knight and Balthor the Defiled, then add 2 tutors. It does not matter which tutor's you choose to use, but they would be better than a sub-par zombie token maker and re-animator. I like Final Parting in particular. You can use it to fetch your Living Death and stick your favorite bomb in graveyard.
I have run a Grimgrin deck for many years. My version was non-tribal but it had a heavy black mana base. I used to call it a black deck spice with blue. The majority of U/B dual lands do not help you if you are running swamps matter cards like Cabal Coffers.
You need everything you can reasonably use to fetch a swamp. I strongly recommend getting your hands on at least 4 swamp fetch lands. You also appear to be running too many non-basic utility lands. I would cut:
2x Island - Fetch's will make up for it. If you have an opponent who likes land destruction, don't tell them you only run 3. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Only useful when you are ahead. Better with non-creature permanents that stick around longer. Cabal Stronghold - Does not count non-basic swamps. Best for a pure mono black deck with very fewer utility lands. Underground River - Good but not a swamp. You are probably sad when you draw it late game with a healthy land base. Drowned Catacomb - See above
I appreciate the suggestions, but I can't justify cutting 4 blue sources to then add in worse "blue" sources. The fetches may make sense, but I don't like running off color fetches. I used to do that in Karador as I wanted every Green fetch I could have but I now prefer to keep my lists a little more "pure". Which leaves me with Polluted Delta as the only real option. I am not sure how drawing Underground River or Drowned Catacomb late is worse than drawing Wilds, Expanse, Bad River, or Rocky Tar Pit instead.
Stronghold is a card I have questioned myself on and have gone back and forth on. Likely, it is not really worth the slot with "only" 16 potential basic swamps (21 with Urborg). So, I can get on board with making that something different. It certainly has not been stellar, but it hasn't been abysmal either.
And yes, I understand that having a few more non swamps does make Coffers a bit worse (though this is mitigated by having Urborg). But I can't justify going all in on swamps when I have a (admittedly small) number blue spells. As I mentioned above with Lich Lord, I already have an issue with getting blue mana sometimes. The fetches would obviously help with that somewhat as they can get my blue sources earlier, but it is a route I have chosen not to go down as I don't want off-color fetches.
In the main deck, I would drop Josu Vess, Lich Knight and Balthor the Defiled, then add 2 tutors. It does not matter which tutor's you choose to use, but they would be better than a sub-par zombie token maker and re-animator. I like Final Parting in particular. You can use it to fetch your Living Death and stick your favorite bomb in graveyard.
Josu actually gives me a reasonable payoff for the mana that Coffers and Nykthos provide. Being able to kick him to get an additional 8 zombies is reasonable value. I am not sure how Balthor is any worse than Living End (since you mentioned tutoring for Living Death, the idea must be sound). And, being a creature and a zombie means it is easier to tutor out with the zombie tutor I have as well as doing things on its own just by being on the battlefield and synergizing with other things.
Also, I prefer not to run tutors in most of my decks that are not restrictive (Corpse Harvester is fine since it only gets zombies and swamps at a not insignificant cost). I used to run Demonic Tutor in every black deck and Survival of the Fittest in my green decks. These make the games too linear, too repetitive. Eventually, there is always the "right" play with these. For anyone else looking at a list like this, or one that you alluded to, tutors would absolutely make it more powerful and more consistent so I certainly don't disagree with the suggestion. It is just a bit antithetical to how I have chosen to construct my decks.
As I went through the choices for the deck list I found a bunch of zombie synergies I wanted to include as well as some other cards that were not zombies. As I built the deck I thought of making it solely zombie tribal. Then, I decided to include a number of non-zombie creatures with just a heavy focus on Zombies. As I finalized the list, I found that due to mana curve concerns or a variety of other reasons, I ended up with a pretty solid build of mostly zombie creatures with 5-10 non-zombies so I just cut most of the rest of the non-zombies to make it almost all zombies.
As I got more into it, I realized there were a couple of blue zombies that would be cool to have. Havengul Lich and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born were the two big ones. Plus, blue gives me a couple other cards that I would like to include (Timetwister effects mostly). As such, I cut most of the "big mana" spells like Torment.
I chose Grimgrin as the general because he works as removal as I need him and it is a built in sac outlet to work with the zombies I have that care about zombies dying. I figured if I could get 1 or 2 of them on the board and then sac my board to Grimgrin, it could cause a lot of life loss for my opponents.
Eventually, I came up with this list:
1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Cabal Stronghold
1 Diamond Valley
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Pools
5 Island
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Sunken Hollow
16 Swamp
1 Underground River
1 Underground Sea
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Watery Grave
1 Winding Canyons
Instants
1 Cyclonic Rift
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Artifacts
1 Expedition Map
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Attrition
1 Grave Pact
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
Creatures
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Burnished Hart
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Cemetery Reaper
1 Corpse Harvester
1 Cryptbreaker
1 Death Baron
1 Diregraf Captain
1 Diregraf Colossus
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Gempalm Polluter
1 Gisa and Geralf
1 Grave Titan
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Gravecrawler
1 Gravespawn Sovereign
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Havengul Lich
1 Josu Vess, Lich Knight
1 Lich Lord of Unx
1 Lord of the Accursed
1 Lord of the Undead
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Noosegraf Mob
1 Noxious Ghoul
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Plague Belcher
1 Relentless Dead
1 Risen Executioner
1 Shepherd of Rot
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Stronghold Assassin
1 The Scarab God
1 Unbreathing Horde
1 Undead Warchief
1 Vengeful Dead
1 Withered Wretch
1 Zombie Master
1 Zombie Trailblazer
1 Damnation
1 Day's Undoing
1 Exsanguinate
1 Living Death
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Windfall
The main thing I wanted to focus on was the Zombies. So, I tried to keep my non-creature spells to a minimum. That is the biggest reason that, beyond mana Drain the deck does not run any counterspells. Blue basically gives me a bunch of card draw and I have a few black card draw options as well.
Expedition Map is in there to get me to my Diamond Valley, Cabal Coffers, or Urborg depending on what I needed at the time.
My non-zombie creatures are basically utility creatures and I included a couple cards meant to get my creatures back from the graveyard en masse.
I did still include Exsanguinate as the one remaining "big mana" spell where I can generate a bunch of black mana and try to drain everyone for lethal or just to gain a bunch of life as needed.
I am hoping to have most of the cards by Wednesday so I can try this deck out, but it seems pretty solid. If nothing else, it at least seems really fun. I don't do much with tribal decks (Vampires being the only one I have really built and kept built) so I thought it would be fun to try a zombie build.
I'm also thinking that Greed is better than Arguel's Blood Fast. Are you planning on getting bellow 5 life? I find the Blood Fast kinda awkward in EDH.
Gisa and Geralf is tight in a reanimator package/theme. If you're going that route - the token route - then Gisa and/or G&G and Dawn of the Dead and a sac outlet. And Dawn is uber on theme.
I've been torn between changing my mono black Gisa deck into Dimir Zombies, but every time I try, I get all sentimental.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
I actually did consider Greed, but Blood Fast being 2 mana to cast feels better. The ability to transform is a nice added bonus in case it ever matters, but it is there mainly to get some early card draw in.
I had thought of Gisa and Geralf and I am almost positive it is a mistake not to run them. I just didn't like the mill aspect but getting zombies back from the graveyard is very good. I should probably cut Chainer as G&G are more on theme than Chainer is.
Dawn of the Dead is interesting and is not a card I even thought about. Since Grimgrin is a built-in sac outlet, I shouldn't have to worry too much about my stuff getting exiled.
So, based on your suggestions, I think I will cut Chainer for Gisa and Geralf and I will try to find room for Dawn of the Dead. I am not sold on Rooftop Storm but the synergy with Havengul Lich, as you pointed out, is pretty slick.
Thanks.
Yeah and also be careful cause' Noxious Ghoul kills non-zombies, so it's a play around at times with GG and solo Gisa. Chainer kinda screws you if they spot remove it so it'd high risk/high reward.
Gravecrawler can be cute with Skullclamp-style shenanigans but you're trying to be more creature-centered. Carrion Feeder gives you a free sac outlet that is on tribe.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Regarding Ghoul: I already want to go as far into the zombie route as possible so his ability has very little drawback, but the anti-synergy with G&G is good to call out.
I did think about Gravecrawler and Skullclamp but I think my other card draw is more reliable as Gravecrawler will end up having a higher toughness than 1 if everything works out right. I also had Carrion Feeder in the list originally and ended up cutting it as I felt Grimgrin was reliable enough as my sac outlet and it doesn't give me any benefits other than its counters (unlike something Viscera Seer for example which has an additional effect).
With that in mind however, I could see cutting Arena for Skullclamp and finding a spot for both Gravecrawler and Carrion Feeder. I think if I include Crawler and Clamp for card draw shenanigans, I probably also want an additional sac outlet so I can sac anything else the clamp is attached to.
I still have yet to play the deck in a real game (I am hoping to do so tomorrow) so I will inevitably find some cards I don't like in the deck. Hopefully that leads me to some cuts for some of the above suggestions.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
I was playing against Edgar Markov and Glissa the Traitor.
I started off somewhat slow. I never missed a land drop and went Relentless Dead into Diregraf Colossus. The Colossus was an all star as it gave me quite a few zombies to work with. I then got Zombie Trailblazer, Havengul Lich and Plague Belcher on the board for a few turns. With Whip of Erebos I was able to gain life to stay alive as I was also able to hit for 9 unblockable damage with the Lich and Belcher. I also used Lich at one point to cast an opponent's Dark Impostor which kept me alive by getting rid of their biggest threats.
I ended up winning off reanimating a Noosegraf Mob, casting 3 spells, and then cycling a Gempalm Polluter to have the remaining player lose a bunch of life. I had killed the other player the turn prior by making my stuff unblockable with the Trailblazer.
All in all, the deck ran very well. One thing I had thought that would work better was Avatar of Woe. This was one of my favorite cards when I first started playing and I thought I would be able to cast it cheaply in this deck, but it never happened. Granted, there were only 3 players, but the most we ever got to was 9 creature cards in graveyards when I had it in my hand. And, since it is not a zombie, I am just going to find something else to put in its place.
Another couple thoughts I has:
I think I might try to find room for Gravecrawler and Skullclamp and I will cut Phyrexian Arena. I think I have enough other card draw anyway so adding another in Skullclamp means I probably don't still need Arena.
With the addition of Gravecrawler, it means I almost definitely will not include Rooftop Storm. This is because Storm, Gravecrawler, and Grimgrim is an infinite combo to make Grimgrin as big as I want. It is vulnerable but is still not something I want to have available in the deck.
On that note, I am thinking of also cutting Mana Drain. It is the only counter spell in the deck and I really don't want it. It is also somewhat difficult to get to 2 blue mana anyway (Kindred Discovery is good enough to strive for it though). I have so many blue decks already, I kind of like one without counters.
The last thing I am thinking of is Grave Pact. With Grimgrin as a built in sac outlet, and the addition of Gravecrawler, this card seems really good. With this, I feel I probably can afford to cut down on a Wrath and I think Mutilate is the one that can go.
Per a previous comment, I think cutting Chainer for Gisa and Geralf if the right call.
So, basically, I think the possible cuts now are
and the possible additions are
The lifelink thanks to Whip of Erebos is key if you also want to win with Shepherd of Rot. That way you will usually survive its activation.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
It is also 2 mana so although I couldn't activate it, it did allow me to cast it to get a free Zombie from Diregraf Colossus so it was still useful for the Gempalm I cycled a couple turns later.
I have decided to replace them with these cards:
The started off reasonably well. I made all my land drops and was able to get down a few threats. The biggest thing was getting down Grimgrin and having enough creatures to sacrifice to it. The Depala player had gotten down a Skysovereign, Consul Flagship that was able to keep some of the smaller creatures off the table. The ended up enchanting it with an Aura that kept it a creature which worked out well for me as it gave me a way to destroy it with Grimgrin. They also got down a Dwarven Blastminer. In the meantime, Edgar was spitting out Vampires left and right and Karametra started off very slow as they had lands, but no green mana.
As mentioned, I got Grimgrin online and I had a Coffers in hand. So, the first thing I did was attack the Depala player so I could destroy their Blastminer. I felt this was a bigger threat as I could deal with the Skysovereign for a couple turns. A couple turns later, I did destroy the Skysovereigh.
At some point, I got Gravecrawler and Skullclamp going so I was able to keep my hand full. This allowed me to get a larger board presence to help stave off Edgar. mostly. Karametra had started getting into the game at this point and got down an Aura Shards. This blew up my Skullclamp and then a few turns later my Kindred Discovery.
Importantly, I got Gravespawn Sovereign and Mikaeus the Unhallowed down along with a few other creatures. I was able to use these to reanimate other creatures. At some point I was able to Reanimate an opponent's Blood Artist. And, with tapping my stuff and sacrificing it to Grimgrim to get them back untapped, I was able to reanimate something else.
However, I was not able to keep up with Edgar so I had to cast Damnation. I started with Sacrificing Mikaeus Grimgrin firs as there was very little of mine that would return and I did not want Edgar to get Blood Artist back. This left me with 29 triggers from Blood Artist which was exceptionally relevant as I was at 4 life. I threw them all at Karametra which left them at 1 life.
I then cast Grimgrin again and passed the turn. I made a mistake here as I should have cast Gravecrawler from the graveyard so I had something to sac to Grimgrin. I didn't and Edgar ended up exiling my graveyard.
From here, it was a little slower as I tried to rebuild and Edgar just did it better. Depala and Karamtera actually rebuilt fairly well as well. I was able to get the last point of damage into Karametra a couple turns later. I then worked on Depala and killed them off a little later. The reason I went after the other two first was because Edgar was at 65+ life. With the other 2 hone, I could focus my energy on Edgar.
The ultimate play of the game came about when I only had 1 or two cards in hand and at about 30 life. I only had a couple creatures on board and Edgar was way ahead of me. However, I top decked Living Death. I played my Bojuka Bog to exile Edgar's graveyard (they only had butcher of Malakir and then cast Living Death. This left me with 4 creatures and then I cast Grimgrin for the 3rd or 4th time of the game. From there, I was able to get Grimgrin large enough to beat down and win the game very quickly after that.
I have had a number of other good games (not all that I have won of course) but this game was really good and really showed how well the deck could perform when the game went long. The game went on for a little over 2 hours when most games at this shop end around an hour.
I ended up cutting Gempalm Polluter. I never felt like the trigger ever made much of an impact and drawing a card was fairly low impact. It just felt like the right card to cut.
Out of Dominaria, I have decided to give Cabal Stronghold a try. The majority of my lands are basics already and Urborg makes it so my Islands count, so it seems like a good inclusion. To make room, I am cutting Crypt of Agadeem . I don't want to cut a basic and Crypt is not often producing as much mana as I think Stronghold can.
To make room, I am going to cut Disciple of Bolas. Not only is it not a Zombie, but I don't really feel that it does as much as I want. I think the addition of Gravecrawler + Skullclamp works well to keep my hand full.
I am going to cut Lich Lord of Unx to make room. I think I have activated its first ability *maybe* once or or twice, and I don't think I have ever activated its last ability. It seems good on paper, but in a real game it either doesn't do a lot or it gets stuck in hand as I try to get to blue mana. It feels like it can be cut for anything else and the Reaper seems like a good replacement.
You need everything you can reasonably use to fetch a swamp. I strongly recommend getting your hands on at least 4 swamp fetch lands. You also appear to be running too many non-basic utility lands. I would cut:
2x Island - Fetch's will make up for it. If you have an opponent who likes land destruction, don't tell them you only run 3.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Only useful when you are ahead. Better with non-creature permanents that stick around longer.
Cabal Stronghold - Does not count non-basic swamps. Best for a pure mono black deck with very fewer utility lands.
Underground River - Good but not a swamp. You are probably sad when you draw it late game with a healthy land base.
Drowned Catacomb - See above
Then I would add, Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, Bad River, Rocky Tar Pit, Polluted Delta, and Bloodstained Mire. Four of those lands cause a land to etb tapped, but that is not big deal as long as you get the type of land you need. If you have more money you could dip into swamp fetches in enemy colours or more blue fetches.
In the main deck, I would drop Josu Vess, Lich Knight and Balthor the Defiled, then add 2 tutors. It does not matter which tutor's you choose to use, but they would be better than a sub-par zombie token maker and re-animator. I like Final Parting in particular. You can use it to fetch your Living Death and stick your favorite bomb in graveyard.
Stronghold is a card I have questioned myself on and have gone back and forth on. Likely, it is not really worth the slot with "only" 16 potential basic swamps (21 with Urborg). So, I can get on board with making that something different. It certainly has not been stellar, but it hasn't been abysmal either.
And yes, I understand that having a few more non swamps does make Coffers a bit worse (though this is mitigated by having Urborg). But I can't justify going all in on swamps when I have a (admittedly small) number blue spells. As I mentioned above with Lich Lord, I already have an issue with getting blue mana sometimes. The fetches would obviously help with that somewhat as they can get my blue sources earlier, but it is a route I have chosen not to go down as I don't want off-color fetches.
Josu actually gives me a reasonable payoff for the mana that Coffers and Nykthos provide. Being able to kick him to get an additional 8 zombies is reasonable value. I am not sure how Balthor is any worse than Living End (since you mentioned tutoring for Living Death, the idea must be sound). And, being a creature and a zombie means it is easier to tutor out with the zombie tutor I have as well as doing things on its own just by being on the battlefield and synergizing with other things.
Also, I prefer not to run tutors in most of my decks that are not restrictive (Corpse Harvester is fine since it only gets zombies and swamps at a not insignificant cost). I used to run Demonic Tutor in every black deck and Survival of the Fittest in my green decks. These make the games too linear, too repetitive. Eventually, there is always the "right" play with these. For anyone else looking at a list like this, or one that you alluded to, tutors would absolutely make it more powerful and more consistent so I certainly don't disagree with the suggestion. It is just a bit antithetical to how I have chosen to construct my decks.