I have a deck that has some is-ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!!! <ribbit>, some issues with in-game performance. Jokes aside, it has had mana issues not just with the amount of it at a given time, but just a general lack of free mana when I need it, yet has tested fine when goldfishing.
One problem is that I cast Species Gorger too early, leading to my hand getting too large and then I stubbornly refuse to bounce it. I have to drop more of my hand before bringing him out and then I should be fine.
The next issue is just straight mana. To even out some shortages and synergize with Ovinize, I added a playset of Desert to address this.
So I don't fully know at this time if it's just the mana and how I'm playing the Gorgers, or if there is something else wrong with the lineup for smaller MP games. It should allow me to do fun stuff and keep people guessing. Maybe I've just had some bad shuffles? Any thoughts?
Well.... if Gorger is the focus of your deck then you need to feed him proper. I suggest Tokens. Akroan Horse would be the first card I looked at. It's a wall but you get your tokens for free each turn to feed the Gorger.
You look like you like counters so Animation Module should be an option. The tokens are a bit crunchy but certainly edible. Awakening Zone tokens pulls double duty for colorless mana if the frog isn't out yet. Even better, enchantments are harder to destroy.
I can probably remember more cards later....
Oops... I just realized you have mana problems. That strengthens Awakenings vote....
Since this is Casual, try the old standbys Sol Ring, Birds of paradise and Llanowar Elves are pretty solid mana accelerators just to name a few. Noble Hierarch falls in line with your deck strategy.... oh... almost missed, Orochi Leafcaller is a snakish Mana Dork.
Well.... if Gorger is the focus of your deck then you need to feed him proper. I suggest Tokens. Akroan Horse would be the first card I looked at. It's a wall but you get your tokens for free each turn to feed the Gorger.
You look like you like counters so Animation Module should be an option. The tokens are a bit crunchy but certainly edible. Awakening Zone tokens pulls double duty for colorless mana if the frog isn't out yet. Even better, enchantments are harder to destroy.
I can probably remember more cards later....
That brings up a good question. What do I actually with the deck? My meta plays a lot of linear decks that basically run the same every game. I built a Simic deck first because I did want a quasi-frog tribal, but also added in other stuff to do devious Simic stuff. After all, turning a Blightsteel Colossus closing in for a kill into a sheep so that it dies in the desert or gets eaten by a frog is just hilarious. The Species Gorger is indeed the engine that bounces etb value cards so they can be re-used, as opposed to just throwing tokens at the Gorger. While they also can serve as finishers with Rancor, the main idea here with the entire deck is to nimbly shift and move with the flexibility to handle a lot of varied threats as the game progresses. So goes the plan. It should work, but success has been elusive up to now.
Simic is not necessarily one of my strong styles. So....
You mentioned controlling your hand size an issue which is why I suggested tokens. Tokens are fed to the Gorger as payment but if you want to bounce a creature and recast for ETB, nothing is stopping you. Your token becomes a trump blocker or fodder for something else.
I'm having a tough time figuring out what this deck actually wants to do as well. I mean, your namesake card is a worse version of Arbor Colossus, which I'd only play in the most niche of shells. The self-bounce angle is best done a million different other ways. Temur Sabertooth, Crystal Shard, take your pick really. Frog/Snake/Generic Amphibian tribal? There may be a way to get this deck working but I think a theme or solid win condition needs to be decided on here.
I get where you're coming from. Simply put, it's designed to be what it needs to be as the game goes on. It is a center deck in the Emperor's format.
If there's a rout on one of my wings, I have fog-in-a-frog, Ovinize, Mystic Snake, and Omnibian to wreck the attack calculus. If it's a single big threat, the same cards can work (unless the target has shroud), but at least Spore Frog can slow it down. If my wings need a buff, I can repeatedly buff them. If non-creatures are an issue for my wings, I use Acidic Slime to take that out and then swing it out to defend the flanks. I have card draw, recycling, and the self-bounce mechanic to keep all of that stuff coming back while also acting as a large attacker in conjunction with Rancor. Game-wrecking bomb spells can be stopped. Finally, Plaxcaster Froglings and the Kraj distribute +1/+1 counters to my side's key creatures so I can protect them with shroud. Omnibian, Ovinize, and Desert will all serve to make attack math really complicated for the other side, which will lead to mistakes I can exploit.
Ultimately, the goal is to keep my wings afloat, the enemy disrupted, and then let my wings win. This all assumes I'm not mana hosed (why I added Desert and why I need to hold the Species Gorger later once my hand is emptier) and my wings have a decent deck themselves.
I am wondering if Polymorphist's Jest would be a good answer somewhere since it will humble even untargetable creatures so they can be dealt with.
The deck does fill the "20 frogs" tribal requirement, so the rest could just be goodstuff. I don't like the Rancors and the Ovinizes. I like Control Magic and Wild Growth.
Thank you for the correction, but I think you misunderstand my use of Tokens in this way. It isn't to minimize Gorger's ability, it's to control his hand. There might be times it would be prudent not to bounce a creature but you don't want to lose the "boss" creature. And as the OP stated, he was experiencing problems with his hand size.
The OP dlinitially did not mention this is for Emperor. I thought this was straight MP, which sometimes requires laying down a cheap defensive line in order to get your engine running. Same reason I suggested mana rocks, dorks and hand managers.
Haze Frog and Species Gorger in a duel makes you nigh unkillable. That and they are both frogs. Something you should consider.
Just Haze during the opponent's turn and bounce it with Gorger on yours. Also, with all this bouncing, I'd say Door of Destinies should at least be a one-of, especially when you can bounce cheap creatures like Spore Frog.
Having to discard my 8th card when I already have 5+ lands is a problem I'd love to have.
Well, to be fair to my deck, there were some extenuating circumstances in the last game. First, though I got up to five lands pretty fast, I did not draw another land for like the next eight to ten rounds. At the same time, my right wing was facing a fierce assault from an elf token tribal, and the opposing Emperor was rocking a Progenitor Mimic, so I had to keep rotating the same Eternal Witness with the Gorger to keep bringing back Ovinize and try to outlast the creature pressure. Although I killed a bunch of creatures with Ovinize, I could not cast other things since I was not drawing more land. In the last two games, I didn't have the best performing wings, either, which puts more demand on me as the Emperor.
I'm not sure I could have pulled that last one out even with more mana, but I added more lands anyway, the Deserts specifically, to synergize with Ovinize. So I'm genuinely not sure if I presently have a problem that needs drastic measures.
The idea behind these changes is that my friends are purchasing my planeswalkers, so I will be seeing them used against me alot, and needed an instant hard kill spell anyway with Beast Within, extra frog "tribal" cards with the single-use Turn to Frog and multi-creature Polymorphist's Jest. I was thinking of using Rapid Hybridization instead of Turn to Frog but I'm a bit worried 8 spells that give 3/3 creatures will be the downfall of my wings. Still, a 3/3's better than a 12/12 trampling elf, I suppose.
Any thoughts on these changes? Should I go with Rapid Hybridization or Turn to Frog?
The hypnotoad was very happy here. The changes made allowed me to play a smaller game (3 person FFA) without wings to protect me and keep an elf tribal and w/b deck under control through constantly changing combat conditions. At one point, Horochi, Death's Wail was out, so my Omnibian could tap to kill. I got my Species Gorger rocking Mystic Snakes and Eternal Witness in and out of play while also attacking relentlessly itself in between a couple Polymorphist's Jests. Even when Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter pulled some sort of combo to kill much of my frogs, I recovered and steadily gained position on the elf deck that was stalled out, eventually soft-locking her with Mystic Snake constantly bouncing back to my hand to use again and again. So much fun. Thanks for the feedback, it did get me thinking. Today ended up being a great day with most of my decks.
NOTE: This is for Emperor’s, team games like 2HG, or small ffa games of 3-4. OK, so I love what the hypnotoad deck does, but finding a need to add some adjustment. If I take out some cards (not yet decided), and add three mass creature-removing, the options are:
3 Curse of the Swine
Or
3 Aetherspouts
In the right circumstances, both cards would be devastating in my group.
The Aetherspouts would stop elf and other massed tribal assaults, regardless of who they were attacking. In attacks with one or two attackers, not as strong. Curse of the Swine, however, gives me the choice of which creatures I remove. Even against 2 power creatures with nasty keywords (V Nighthawk, anyone?) or recursion (Bloodghast), this card can be a difference maker, though it’s limited to my mana and can’t be used in combat.
Both are fun (I use them in my simic edh Zegana deck), but I am leaning toward Curse of the Swine simply because I also have Polymorphist’s Jest as a massed-attack hoser instant. Anyone have an opinion on this?
Looking to have a few less critters (took out Fog-in-a-frog since they are always targeted the turn before the attack comes), and swapping Turn to Frog for the better Ovinize, allowing me to add a full complement of mass removal exiling. No more hypnotoad theme, though. Still, this just might work.
Yup, between Curse of the Swine and Aetherspouts, it's the Baconator for me.
It exiles. So long as you're not hitting Misthollow Griffin, those chumps are staying piggies for eternity.
And you get to use the Boar Token to boot - just look at the cute little fellow. How could you not love him...
Yup, between Curse of the Swine and Aetherspouts, it's the Baconator for me.
It exiles. So long as you're not hitting Misthollow Griffin, those chumps are staying piggies for eternity.
And you get to use the Boar Token to boot - just look at the cute little fellow. How could you not love him...
Yeah, targeted blue mass-exile did it for me. To be quite honest, this U/G deck has the strongest control package of any deck I’ve ever designed for Emperor’s or team games because I don’t sweep my allies.
Well, this doesn’t happen often. The recent changes I made worked so well that the deck not only works, it is downright oppressive in my group, locking down opponents in team games and Emperor games to the point that they can’t get anything going and just resign in frustration. So I improved the deck past the ability for oppenents to have a chance against it. I think for group vibe and meta-harmony, I’m going back to the Hypnotoad list as a frog tribal. <ribbit>
-4 Curse of the Swine
-4 Ovinize
+4 Spore Frog
+4 Turn to Frog
One problem is that I cast Species Gorger too early, leading to my hand getting too large and then I stubbornly refuse to bounce it. I have to drop more of my hand before bringing him out and then I should be fine.
The next issue is just straight mana. To even out some shortages and synergize with Ovinize, I added a playset of Desert to address this.
So I don't fully know at this time if it's just the mana and how I'm playing the Gorgers, or if there is something else wrong with the lineup for smaller MP games. It should allow me to do fun stuff and keep people guessing. Maybe I've just had some bad shuffles? Any thoughts?
4 Spore Frog
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Plaxcaster Frogling
4 Eternal Witness
4 Omnibian
4 Mystic Snake
4 Species Gorger
4 Acidic Slime
1 Experiment Kraj
4 Rancor
4 Ovinize
Land:
4 Simic Guildgate
4 Simic Growth Chamber
6 Forest
6 Island
4 Desert
Akroan Horse would be the first card I looked at. It's a wall but you get your tokens for free each turn to feed the Gorger.
You look like you like counters so Animation Module should be an option. The tokens are a bit crunchy but certainly edible.
Awakening Zone tokens pulls double duty for colorless mana if the frog isn't out yet. Even better, enchantments are harder to destroy.
I can probably remember more cards later....
Oops... I just realized you have mana problems. That strengthens Awakenings vote....
Since this is Casual, try the old standbys Sol Ring, Birds of paradise and Llanowar Elves are pretty solid mana accelerators just to name a few. Noble Hierarch falls in line with your deck strategy.... oh... almost missed, Orochi Leafcaller is a snakish Mana Dork.
That brings up a good question. What do I actually with the deck? My meta plays a lot of linear decks that basically run the same every game. I built a Simic deck first because I did want a quasi-frog tribal, but also added in other stuff to do devious Simic stuff. After all, turning a Blightsteel Colossus closing in for a kill into a sheep so that it dies in the desert or gets eaten by a frog is just hilarious. The Species Gorger is indeed the engine that bounces etb value cards so they can be re-used, as opposed to just throwing tokens at the Gorger. While they also can serve as finishers with Rancor, the main idea here with the entire deck is to nimbly shift and move with the flexibility to handle a lot of varied threats as the game progresses. So goes the plan. It should work, but success has been elusive up to now.
You mentioned controlling your hand size an issue which is why I suggested tokens. Tokens are fed to the Gorger as payment but if you want to bounce a creature and recast for ETB, nothing is stopping you. Your token becomes a trump blocker or fodder for something else.
If you want to control your hand size. Reliquary Tower is a particular favorite of mine replacing an old favorite Library of Leng. Spellbook is a cute one too. Venser's Journal would be fun with your Gorger. Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, once you get the Emblem is permanent. Very mana hungry though.
If there's a rout on one of my wings, I have fog-in-a-frog, Ovinize, Mystic Snake, and Omnibian to wreck the attack calculus. If it's a single big threat, the same cards can work (unless the target has shroud), but at least Spore Frog can slow it down. If my wings need a buff, I can repeatedly buff them. If non-creatures are an issue for my wings, I use Acidic Slime to take that out and then swing it out to defend the flanks. I have card draw, recycling, and the self-bounce mechanic to keep all of that stuff coming back while also acting as a large attacker in conjunction with Rancor. Game-wrecking bomb spells can be stopped. Finally, Plaxcaster Froglings and the Kraj distribute +1/+1 counters to my side's key creatures so I can protect them with shroud. Omnibian, Ovinize, and Desert will all serve to make attack math really complicated for the other side, which will lead to mistakes I can exploit.
Ultimately, the goal is to keep my wings afloat, the enemy disrupted, and then let my wings win. This all assumes I'm not mana hosed (why I added Desert and why I need to hold the Species Gorger later once my hand is emptier) and my wings have a decent deck themselves.
I am wondering if Polymorphist's Jest would be a good answer somewhere since it will humble even untargetable creatures so they can be dealt with.
I never played that format (EDH is the preferred format locally) so I really don't have much deck construction advice to give.
Thank you for the correction, but I think you misunderstand my use of Tokens in this way. It isn't to minimize Gorger's ability, it's to control his hand. There might be times it would be prudent not to bounce a creature but you don't want to lose the "boss" creature. And as the OP stated, he was experiencing problems with his hand size.
The OP dlinitially did not mention this is for Emperor. I thought this was straight MP, which sometimes requires laying down a cheap defensive line in order to get your engine running. Same reason I suggested mana rocks, dorks and hand managers.
I can only guess at what works for Emperor.
Just Haze during the opponent's turn and bounce it with Gorger on yours. Also, with all this bouncing, I'd say Door of Destinies should at least be a one-of, especially when you can bounce cheap creatures like Spore Frog.
I'm not sure I could have pulled that last one out even with more mana, but I added more lands anyway, the Deserts specifically, to synergize with Ovinize. So I'm genuinely not sure if I presently have a problem that needs drastic measures.
4 Spore Frog
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Eternal Witness
4 Plaxcaster Frogling
4 Omnibian
4 Mystic Snake
4 Species Gorger
1 Experiment Kraj
4 Turn to Frog
4 Beast Within
4 Polymorphist's Jest
Land:
4 Simic Guildgate
4 Simic Growth Chamber
6 Forest
6 Island
4 Desert
Any thoughts on these changes? Should I go with Rapid Hybridization or Turn to Frog?
Woot.
3 Curse of the Swine
Or
3 Aetherspouts
In the right circumstances, both cards would be devastating in my group.
The Aetherspouts would stop elf and other massed tribal assaults, regardless of who they were attacking. In attacks with one or two attackers, not as strong. Curse of the Swine, however, gives me the choice of which creatures I remove. Even against 2 power creatures with nasty keywords (V Nighthawk, anyone?) or recursion (Bloodghast), this card can be a difference maker, though it’s limited to my mana and can’t be used in combat.
Both are fun (I use them in my simic edh Zegana deck), but I am leaning toward Curse of the Swine simply because I also have Polymorphist’s Jest as a massed-attack hoser instant. Anyone have an opinion on this?
Edit: Hmm...after second thought, maybe this.
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Eternal Witness
4 Plaxcaster Frogling
4 Omnibian
4 Mystic Snake
4 Species Gorger
1 Experiment Kraj
4 Ovinize
4 Beast Within
4 Polymorphist's Jest
4 Curse of the Swine
Land:
4 Simic Guildgate
4 Simic Growth Chamber
6 Forest
6 Island
4 Desert
Looking to have a few less critters (took out Fog-in-a-frog since they are always targeted the turn before the attack comes), and swapping Turn to Frog for the better Ovinize, allowing me to add a full complement of mass removal exiling. No more hypnotoad theme, though. Still, this just might work.
It exiles. So long as you're not hitting Misthollow Griffin, those chumps are staying piggies for eternity.
And you get to use the Boar Token to boot - just look at the cute little fellow. How could you not love him...
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-4 Curse of the Swine
-4 Ovinize
+4 Spore Frog
+4 Turn to Frog