Good afternoon all! As mentioned in a previous thread, I'm continuing to build up decks for a Star Format group. I have previously assembled mono-color and ally-color decks, so now it's time for... enemy-colored decks! For reference, the opponent breakdown is as follows:
WB vs (BG and WR) BG vs (WB and UG) UG vs (RU and BG) RU vs (WR and UG) WR vs (RU and WB)
Overall thoughts as I have been building/tweaking:
As always, each deck has a planeswalker, hopefully thematically suited to the deck they're in.
WB - Focused on token generation and destruction, triggering multiple etb and death triggers for a thousand-cuts win. I know Illness in the Ranks isn't the strongest card, but at one mana it seems to be an effective way to get the job done. If there are stronger ways to build the deck, I'm all ears!
BG - This deck seems... fine. Strong enough, though a little unexciting to me. I'm looking for replacements for Putrefy, possibly Golgari Charm?
UG - I stumbled on a similar build in the forums here and love it. The ramp and recursion seem like some good, solid fun.
RU - Massive draw, non-combat pings, and fliers make for an interesting idea to me, but I'm not 100% sure this is cohesive enough yet. Thoughts?
WR - A Sunforger toolbox deck. Obviously, the stronger/expensive Stoneforge Mystic and Puresteel Paladin would be better fits then Relic Seeker and Kazuul's Toll Collector, but my budget is fairly strapped at the moment from building all of these decks If there's a better toolkit for Sunforger, I'd be interested to hear it.
The UR deck seems to be missing Chasm Skulker. I don't really understand Chandra's Spitfire with so few ways to trigger it. Obviously it has some nasty combos but on the whole I can't imagine the card being especially good when you're not supporting it with things like Earthquake and Breath of Darigaaz (in addition to things like Pyrohemia and Psychosis Crawler). I get that Curiosity enables infinite combos but it only works with like 2 creatures in the entire deck which seems loose.
You really need a Swords to Plowshares in the RW deck. It's the most common tutor target by a wide margin. Odds // Ends (Ends) is castable with both Isochron Scepter and Sunforger and makes it extremely difficult for players to attack you. Mizzium Mortars is a generic "Flame Slash" that you can tutor up but whereas Lightning Bolt will never Plague Wind the field sometimes you'll just hit 6 mana and Overload it for massive value. Low opportunity cost, high upside. Nahiri, your Giants and your Collectors can avoid paying Equip costs so consider adding a card like Heartseeker or Argentum Armor. The Art/Ench removal spell that I field in Sunforger decks is Return to Dust since it permanently removes 2 threats and that's a big game. I don't recommend playing Master Warcraft. The card isn't completely horrendous or anything but I've never once in my life seen someone cast it "the right way." No one understands what it actually does and everyone is disappointed when they learn that it's not nearly as broken as it sounds. Power-level aside it always creates a "feel bad" experience where the player casting it is left disappointed.
You'll probably fetch Plow, Return to Dust, Wild Ricochet and Odds // Ends the vast majority of the time though so you probably don't need all of the randoms removal spells to begin with.
You'll probably fetch Plow, Return to Dust, Wild Ricochet and Odds // Ends the vast majority of the time though so you probably don't need all of the randoms removal spells to begin with.
Any recommendations on replacements and/or which random removal spells don't really need to be in the list?
You'll probably fetch Plow, Return to Dust, Wild Ricochet and Odds // Ends the vast majority of the time though so you probably don't need all of the randoms removal spells to begin with.
Any recommendations on replacements and/or which random removal spells don't really need to be in the list?
You have a lot of deal 3-4s but in MP you generally want cards that're always live. Good example is Chaos Warp which is an Oblation that doesn't always draw your opponent 2 cards. I don't mind Oblation either mind you but if I'm casting one it's frequently on my own creature in response to removal. While I can see value in cards like Order // Chaos as well I don't really want be drawing these kinds of situational removal spells all throughout the game. Granted I usually play 4x Mistveil Plains for obvious reasons but I found that the tool-box build to be lackluster because I was always fetching the same 4 cards over and over anyways. Lightning Bolt, Ride Down, Deflecting Palm, Lightning Helix, Intimidation Bolt, Order // Chaos, Warleader's Helix, that's a big number of fairly marginal burn spells. Not that you need to replace them all or anything but if you're only fetching them 5% of the time and are usually unhappy to draw them then there's not much incentive to field that many. If nothing else there's wiggle-room if you do want to make changes to the list since it realistically doesn't need such a high density of 1-for-1 burn.
Tithe is a great suggestion I didn't notice previously. Thanks! I have tweaked the toolbox and bumped up Mistveil Plains to a full playset. I probably won't know until a full playtest which of these spells I'm never actually fetching for or unhappy to draw. I feel like I have a decent place to start at least. Thanks y'all!
Yeah I like that list a lot. Cards like Congregate and Comeuppance have drastically different uses than "different shares of Lightning Bolt" which is what you were playing before. Mass lifegain, mass removal, mass protection, these are legitimately useful options and most of these cards are perfectly fine to draw and play "as is."
Like, I've been playing Odds // Ends for years because that's what I've always known to be good. And it was... 10 years ago when it was printed. Now you're reminded me that "hey, Comeuppance is a card too" which isn't something that I previously considered. Why am I playing a "kill two" when I can field a "kill the everything" and also have a card that makes Earthquake hurt real bad. Tithe/Gift of Estates are great suggestions as well and I love the idea of having easy access to a Misty. Again, that's way more relevant that choosing between a Helix for 3 or Helix for 4. I realize that Gift isn't an Instant but you can still play it in White decks for value and that's a fine place to be.
Hi, just wanted to chime in with a couple toolbox suggestions!
Price of Progress is a player killer that you can be calculating from the very beginning of the game. It will virtually always deal a ton of damage, and you are running a fair amount of basics yourself.
That said, Soulfire Grand Master has gone way down in price since rotation, and he can be BRUTAL in this kind of shell. Imagine the following situation: Grand Master equipped with Sunforger with 6 mana up. Unequip, Price of Progress, pay 4, and do it again next turn.
Sulfurous Blast is, I believe, the only instant sweeper that can hit for 3.
Crackling Doom is a nice way to hit everyone's threats at once, and it is now $ 0.32.
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WB vs (BG and WR)
BG vs (WB and UG)
UG vs (RU and BG)
RU vs (WR and UG)
WR vs (RU and WB)
Overall thoughts as I have been building/tweaking:
3x Viscera Seer
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2x Hunted Horror
3x Blood Seeker
3x Suture Priest
3x Zulaport Cutthroat
3x High Priest of Penance
3x Twilight Drover
1x Ophiomancer
1x Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1x Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
2x Shadows of the Past
4x Zealous Persecution
2x Blind Obedience
2x Mortify
2x Benevolent Offering
3x Lingering Souls
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Cathars' Crusade
Land(22)
4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Tainted Field
7x Swamp
7x Plains
-1 Lingering Souls
-1 Cathars' Crusade
-1 Swamp
-1 Plains
+2 Shadows of the Past
+1 Zealous Persecution
+3 Viscera Seer
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Rakshasa Deathdealer
3x Yavimaya Elder
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Spiritmonger
2x Shriekmaw
2x Soul of Zendikar
1x Soul of Innistrad
1x Bane of Progress
1x Sylvan Primordial
1x Sepulchral Primordial
3x Golgari Charm
4x Deathreap Ritual
2x Murderous Cut
1x Palace Siege
1x Vraska the Unseen
Land(25)
2x Llanowar Wastes
10x Forest
3x Swamp
4x Golgari Rot Farm
4x Jungle Hollow
1x Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
1x Grim backwoods
+2 Murderous Cut
+3 Golgari Charm
4x Arbor Elf
4x Kiora's Follower
3x Coiling Oracle
2x Genesis Hydra
2x Skullwinder
1x Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1x Clever Impersonator
3x Mystic Snake
1x Temur Sabertooth
2x Prophet of Kruphix
2x Mulldrifter
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
2x Deadeye Navigator
2x Sylvan Primordial
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Wild Growth
2x Crystal Shard
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Lands(22)
4x Breeding Pool
10x Forest
4x Island
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Chasm Skulker
3x Swans of Bryn Argoll
1x Psychosis Crawler
1x Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Spells(30)
3x Faithless Looting
3x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Vision Skeins
3x Arcane Denial
2x Cerebral Vortex
3x Fevered Visions
4x Windfall
2x Pyrohemia
2x Reforge the Soul
Lands(24)
1x Desolate Lighthouse
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Izzet Boilerworks
9x Island
9x Mountain
-2 Curiosity
-2 Shivan Gorge
-1 Ral Zarek
+1 Jace Beleren
+4 Chasm Skulker
+2 Cerebral Vortex
+1 Mountain
+1 Island
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Relic Seeker
3x Kazuul's Toll Collector
3x Boros Reckoner
2x Spitemare
2x Stonehewer Giant
Spells(19)
1x Tithe
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Boros Charm
4x Sunforger
1x Loxodon Warhammer
1x Gift of Estates
1x Intimidation Bolt
1x Oblation
1x Chaos Warp
1x Orim's Thunder
1x Congregate
1x Comeuppance
1x Heartseeker
1x Order // Chaos
1x Wild Ricochet
1x Return to Dust
Lands(24)
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
4x Mistveil Plains
4x Boros Garrison
8x Mountain
6x Plains
-1 Loxodon Warhammer
-1 Silence
-1 Warleader's Helix
-1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
-1 Mountain
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Deflecting Palm
-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Ride Down
-1 Odds // Ends
+1 Congregate
+1 Gift of Estates
+1 Boros Charm
+2 Mistveil Plains
+1 Tithe
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Odds // Ends
+1 Return to Dust
+1 Chaos Warp
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Putrefy isn't pretty but it gets the job done. Pernicious Deed would be ideal but even things like Beast Within are solid and Golgari Charm would be totally reasonable as well. BG has a ton of relevant removal in cards like Nature's Claim, Back to Nature, Abrupt Decay, Song of the Dryads, Murderous Cut, on and on and on. Basically anything should work well enough.
The UR deck seems to be missing Chasm Skulker. I don't really understand Chandra's Spitfire with so few ways to trigger it. Obviously it has some nasty combos but on the whole I can't imagine the card being especially good when you're not supporting it with things like Earthquake and Breath of Darigaaz (in addition to things like Pyrohemia and Psychosis Crawler). I get that Curiosity enables infinite combos but it only works with like 2 creatures in the entire deck which seems loose.
You really need a Swords to Plowshares in the RW deck. It's the most common tutor target by a wide margin. Odds // Ends (Ends) is castable with both Isochron Scepter and Sunforger and makes it extremely difficult for players to attack you. Mizzium Mortars is a generic "Flame Slash" that you can tutor up but whereas Lightning Bolt will never Plague Wind the field sometimes you'll just hit 6 mana and Overload it for massive value. Low opportunity cost, high upside. Nahiri, your Giants and your Collectors can avoid paying Equip costs so consider adding a card like Heartseeker or Argentum Armor. The Art/Ench removal spell that I field in Sunforger decks is Return to Dust since it permanently removes 2 threats and that's a big game. I don't recommend playing Master Warcraft. The card isn't completely horrendous or anything but I've never once in my life seen someone cast it "the right way." No one understands what it actually does and everyone is disappointed when they learn that it's not nearly as broken as it sounds. Power-level aside it always creates a "feel bad" experience where the player casting it is left disappointed.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Unfortunately though, Mizzium Mortars doesn't work with Sunforger. Otherwise, I agree it would be much better in this case than Lightning Bolt.
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Good point.
You'll probably fetch Plow, Return to Dust, Wild Ricochet and Odds // Ends the vast majority of the time though so you probably don't need all of the randoms removal spells to begin with.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Any recommendations on replacements and/or which random removal spells don't really need to be in the list?
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
You have a lot of deal 3-4s but in MP you generally want cards that're always live. Good example is Chaos Warp which is an Oblation that doesn't always draw your opponent 2 cards. I don't mind Oblation either mind you but if I'm casting one it's frequently on my own creature in response to removal. While I can see value in cards like Order // Chaos as well I don't really want be drawing these kinds of situational removal spells all throughout the game. Granted I usually play 4x Mistveil Plains for obvious reasons but I found that the tool-box build to be lackluster because I was always fetching the same 4 cards over and over anyways. Lightning Bolt, Ride Down, Deflecting Palm, Lightning Helix, Intimidation Bolt, Order // Chaos, Warleader's Helix, that's a big number of fairly marginal burn spells. Not that you need to replace them all or anything but if you're only fetching them 5% of the time and are usually unhappy to draw them then there's not much incentive to field that many. If nothing else there's wiggle-room if you do want to make changes to the list since it realistically doesn't need such a high density of 1-for-1 burn.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Like, I've been playing Odds // Ends for years because that's what I've always known to be good. And it was... 10 years ago when it was printed. Now you're reminded me that "hey, Comeuppance is a card too" which isn't something that I previously considered. Why am I playing a "kill two" when I can field a "kill the everything" and also have a card that makes Earthquake hurt real bad. Tithe/Gift of Estates are great suggestions as well and I love the idea of having easy access to a Misty. Again, that's way more relevant that choosing between a Helix for 3 or Helix for 4. I realize that Gift isn't an Instant but you can still play it in White decks for value and that's a fine place to be.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Price of Progress is a player killer that you can be calculating from the very beginning of the game. It will virtually always deal a ton of damage, and you are running a fair amount of basics yourself.
That said, Soulfire Grand Master has gone way down in price since rotation, and he can be BRUTAL in this kind of shell. Imagine the following situation: Grand Master equipped with Sunforger with 6 mana up. Unequip, Price of Progress, pay 4, and do it again next turn.
Sulfurous Blast is, I believe, the only instant sweeper that can hit for 3.
Crackling Doom is a nice way to hit everyone's threats at once, and it is now $ 0.32.